RTG's Caribbean 21 lie

[The Dude]

There can't be any doubt that this is anything but an attempt to lead the player into making a false admission. And listen to P21's responses - it SOUNDS like he's making it up as he goes along...

...If this the "bot confession" Bryan alluded to? This isn't evidence of anything but a botched-up scheme concocted by the casino the defraud the player by leading him into making false statements.

Back off Caruso. This is 6 minutes out of 30 that I've heard. In fact, I think most everyone should back up a little and let the casino, player, and RTG sort this out. Far too many knee-jerk reactions all relying on piece meal information from both sides.

 

[caruso]

Note the above comment : "A good litigator will shred this to pieces in no time."

Although I don't know the law, I'm convinced that a "confession" elicted in this grossly leading manner (offering a basically unlimited sum of money) is invalid.

And to suggest that an RTG operator would go on record offering to collude with a player to defraud his own software provider and it NOT be a scheme authorized and approved by that provider is beyond insanity. Think about that for a second. You'll see a flying elephant before you see the above scenario.

EDIT:- Bryan, the casino themselves posted this extract. I can understand scepticism expressed over extracts posted selectively by the player, but this is now the casino. If there is more pertinent material in those other 24 minutes which you've heard and we haven't, more damning evidence against the player, why did they post THIS bit? One has to reasonably conclude that THIS extract is the most central to their case, otherwise why post it?

 

[thesmacker]

Funny, I was sorta sitting on the fence about whether the player admitted to using a robot to get more info from the casino as it seemed a little far fetched but hearing the Hamptons rep trying to obviously entrap and how P of the 21 was answering the questions it does seem as though Pirates was trying to find out what led Hamptons to detect robot play as it seems unlikely that they have any actually physical evidence that he did.

This is 6 minutes out of 30 that I've heard

Well why dont they just post the whole conversation so we dont have to hear that excuse anymore. Obviously both sides are trying to put their side of the argument up, which really makes neither side look any better.

Hamptons, were not all slow when it comes to the technical side of things, why dont you tell us your technical physical evidence as to the indisputable proof that the player used a robot. These telephone post are irrelevent if you cant indisputable show physical evidence that the player used a bot. Untill you do this how do you expect anyone to beleive you? This forum is filled with players, who do you expect them to inherantly side with, tell us your physical proof of the bot as this is the only way to prove your case. Otherwise pay this player regardless of what you have on tape.

 

[dominique]

Note the above comment : "A good litigator will shred this to pieces in no time."

Although I don't know the law, I'm convinced that a "confession" elicted in this grossly leading manner (offering a basically unlimited sum of money) is invalid.

And to suggest that an RTG operator would go on record offering to collude with a player to defraud his own software provider and it NOT be a scheme authorized and approved by that provider is beyond insanity. Think about that for a second. You'll see a flying elephant before you see the above scenario.

EDIT:- Bryan, the casino themselves posted this extract. I can understand scepticism expressed over extracts posted selectively by the player, but this is now the casino. If there is more pertinent material in those other 24 minutes which you've heard and we haven't, more damning evidence against the player, why did they post THIS bit? One has to reasonably conclude that THIS extract is the most central to their case, otherwise why post it?

It is fine to base opinions on partial information.

They are just opinions.

However, judgement needs to be based on solid information.

Who provides the facts is irrelevant. They have to be facts, and all the facts, before one can make a correct judgement.

I still think, given the amount of money, this should go through formal legal channels.

 

[cipher]

Note the above comment : "A good litigator will shred this to pieces in no time."

Well I can tell you for sure that any attorney would go absolutely nuts if a client of his or hers released a statement such as Hampton Casino has released here.

Cipher

 

[docdekay]

FWIW, I was paid 2K from Hampton today as promised. This is in regards to my post above.



















.

 

[HamptonCasino]

OK I'm back

First of all, I think a lot of people posted here without actually
listening to the conversation. I'm talking about people who say they did
not hear any admission of guilt.

So here's a transcript of the first half a minute or so of the posted
conversation :

Ron @ Hampton casino : Let's be honest with each other because we're at
the point where there's no sense in lying anymore. We're beyond that.
Now let's profit from the experience. Talk about the program, the robot.
Player : Talk about the robot....
Ron @ Hampton casino : How much is it worth to you? Do you wanna sell it?
Player : Yeah I wanna sell it
Ron @ Hampton casino : How much do you want for it?
Player : Off the top of my head just to begin there, six figures

The case ends right there. We didn't even need to post any other part of
the conversation. He says he has this Robot/program that cheats RTG
casinos and is willing to sell it for six figures.

Any more details should be completely unnecessary but I will try to
answer some of the other points anyway in my vain attempt to satisfy
everybody.

Some of you keep insisting that we send copies of his "player logs" to
Michael Shackleford or some other person who can corroborate the fact
that this player cheated. Michael Shackleford will be unable to help in
this regard. He is a mathematician. He can analyze the hands played and
that's pretty much it. That is not how we realized that he used a robot.

We analyzed the pattern on how the mouse was moved, at what intervals
was the software clicked on etc etc. Nothing a Mathematical/gambling
expert could corroborate.

Now the other issues,

gamblinboi, I will address your problem right now. Please email me your
username at [email protected]
docdekay, you and all other sportsbook players are being paid in full.
You will be receiving your withdrawal this week if you haven't received
it already.

Regards

Robert Myers
Public Relations
Hampton Casino

 

[cipher]

OK I'm back

First of all, I think a lot of people posted here without actually
listening to the conversation. I'm talking about people who say they did
not hear any admission of guilt.

So here's a transcript of the first half a minute or so of the posted
conversation :

Ron @ Hampton casino : Let's be honest with each other because we're at
the point where there's no sense in lying anymore. We're beyond that.
Now let's profit from the experience. Talk about the program, the robot.
Player : Talk about the robot....
Ron @ Hampton casino : How much is it worth to you? Do you wanna sell it?
Player : Yeah I wanna sell it
Ron @ Hampton casino : How much do you want for it?
Player : Off the top of my head just to begin there, six figures

The case ends right there. We didn't even need to post any other part of
the conversation. He says he has this Robot/program that cheats RTG
casinos and is willing to sell it for six figures.

Any more details should be completely unnecessary but I will try to
answer some of the other points anyway in my vain attempt to satisfy
everybody.

Some of you keep insisting that we send copies of his "player logs" to
Michael Shackleford or some other person who can corroborate the fact
that this player cheated. Michael Shackleford will be unable to help in
this regard. He is a mathematician. He can analyze the hands played and
that's pretty much it. That is not how we realized that he used a robot.

We analyzed the pattern on how the mouse was moved, at what intervals
was the software clicked on etc etc. Nothing a Mathematical/gambling
expert could corroborate.

Now the other issues,

gamblinboi, I will address your problem right now. Please email me your
username at [email protected]
docdekay, you and all other sportsbook players are being paid in full.
You will be receiving your withdrawal this week if you haven't received
it already.

Regards

Robert Myers
Public Relations
Hampton Casino

When will you people ever give up with your nonsense. I mean, if this situation wasn't about the outright theft of $1.3 million dollars plus by HAMPTON CASINO it would almost be laughable.

CIPHER

 

[mary]

I listened to the conversation.

I did not consider it at all convincing as proof of a "confession". In fact, by the same standards of proof, it is a much stronger case for Hampton attempting to buy software with which to steal from other RTG licensees.

If Hampton does not want us to believe that, then there is no case for a confession. Sauce for the goose and sauce for the gander.

I don't buy the evidence for a robot either. There are no shortage of computer programmers who could be hired as third parties to verify Hampton's claims. I don't see them offering such proof.

Hampton had already conducted themselves poorly as a casino by trying to impose a wagering requirement on this player to get paid.

Hampton's management made the decision to raise the betting limits at the player's request. There was no force nor trickery involved.

Even if a robot was used, it does not account for such a win at a negative expectation game--it would still be a matter of luck. If that were the case, why would Hampton make an offer to buy the software? They are looking for something beyond a robot. So that was not a credible offer to a skilled cheat. Secondly, as the player points out in this clip, if the hypothesized robot is detectable, why would Hampton buy it to cheat other RTG casinos?

I suggest that it would be a good idea for Hampton, or RTG, or both, to hire someone like Frank Catania to review this dispute. It would be money well spent.

 

[kavaman]

"We analyzed the pattern on how the mouse was moved, at what intervals
was the software clicked on etc etc. Nothing a Mathematical/gambling
expert could corroborate."

This sounds like total piece of b.....s. I am quite sure rtg, or not any other gambling software has a feature that tracks mouse movements, when a player is playing.
And even if... IF it the software had this kind of feature, we sure would like to see a screenshot of it.....
By the way. If C21 was using some kind of robot software that you claim that the player is using, what good would a robot software that moves mouse, and clicks mouse button be good for? That surely couldnt beat a house advantageous game.
What do other people think about that mp3. The ones that c21 posted in other forum his voice sounds different to me, then on the mp3 that the casino has on their website? Or is it just my low quality speakers?

-kavaman

 

[cipher]

"We analyzed the pattern on how the mouse was moved, at what intervals
was the software clicked on etc etc. Nothing a Mathematical/gambling
expert could corroborate."

This sounds like total piece of b.....s. I am quite sure rtg, or not any other gambling software has a feature that tracks mouse movements, when a player is playing.
And even if... IF it the software had this kind of feature, we sure would like to see a screenshot of it.....
By the way. If C21 was using some kind of robot software that you claim that the player is using, what good would a robot software that moves mouse, and clicks mouse button be good for? That surely couldnt beat a house advantageous game.
What do other people think about that mp3. The ones that c21 posted in other forum his voice sounds different to me, then on the mp3 that the casino has on their website? Or is it just my low quality speakers?

-kavaman

I really hope that the HAMPTON CASINO is running all of this nonsense by an Attorney because they're digging themselves one hell of a hole and quite possibly a grave.

Cipher

 

[love2vegas]

WOW. I can't believe how quick some people are to jump down the casinos
throat. I have only played a couple of times at either Hampton or Portifino, but I must say turning $1,000 investment into over a million dollars would probably cause any casino to be weary. I, too, would hold final judgement on hearing the full evidence, but one thing is clear: pirate does admit to using a program, he has said that he held a job as a programmer in the past, and unlike many of you, I don't buy the line that he was fishing for information. Put yourself in his shoes for a minute: if you're out most of 1.3 million, you absolutely didn't use any "bot", and a guy from the casino calls up and says we'll buy the program. Wouldn't it be- THERE AINT NO F***ING PROGRAM??? Not, gee how much could I get? Come on. You're fishing for what?

Now, the tactics used by the casino are underhanded. They worked for their purpose, but is still sleazy.

Let the legal heads have fun with this one, but I would be shocked if pirate ever sees anywhere near any 1.3 million.

 

[cipher]

We analyzed the pattern on how the mouse was moved, at what intervals
was the software clicked on etc etc. Nothing a Mathematical/gambling
expert could corroborate.

[/QUOTE]

Now Ronnie, are you really really sure that you want to hang your hat on something as ridiculous as analyzing how the mouse moved? I want you and your back end boys to spend the rest of the night thinking this one through really really hard.

Cipher

 

[ITSME]

Finally

WOW. I can't believe how quick some people are to jump down the casinos
throat. I have only played a couple of times at either Hampton or Portifino, but I must say turning $1,000 investment into over a million dollars would probably cause any casino to be weary. I, too, would hold final judgement on hearing the full evidence, but one thing is clear: pirate does admit to using a program, he has said that he held a job as a programmer in the past, and unlike many of you, I don't buy the line that he was fishing for information. Put yourself in his shoes for a minute: if you're out most of 1.3 million, you absolutely didn't use any "bot", and a guy from the casino calls up and says we'll buy the program. Wouldn't it be- THERE AINT NO F***ING PROGRAM??? Not, gee how much could I get? Come on. You're fishing for what?

Now, the tactics used by the casino are underhanded. They worked for their purpose, but is still sleazy.

Let the legal heads have fun with this one, but I would be shocked if pirate ever sees anywhere near any 1.3 million.

Finally. Someone that is posting on this board without downing a couple shots before posting. This is amazing. This guy takes 1000 bucks and turns it into 1.3 millionyeah right. This isnt my first time to the promThen as opposed to going to an attorney he gets on the boards and begins bashing the casino because he was not paid in full (These guys paid him about 25G). He then posts snippets that are all over the place and you can tell that they are completely edited. Finally the casino posts something where he clearly says that he created the program and says that he would be interested in a deal for the program. (His defense is that he is fishing.FOR WHAT? Tuna? What could he gain by saying that he created the program? Did he think that the casino was gonna send him the money and then ask him if at some point in the near future he would send them the program? PLEASE! We did not just fall off of the turnip truck.
In my humble opinion the guy is full of S***T.
I would be interested in hearing the entire 30 minutes. But, as far as Im concerned he is a liar.
BTWnice name he chosePiratec21. Next time before he holds up a bank he should take out a TV commercial announcing the time and place!

 

[HamptonCasino]

When will you people ever give up with your nonsense. I mean, if this situation wasn't about the outright theft of $1.3 million dollars plus by HAMPTON CASINO it would almost be laughable.

Now Ronnie, are you really really sure that you want to hang your hat on something as ridiculous as analyzing how the mouse moved? I want you and your back end boys to spend the rest of the night thinking this one through really really hard.

CIPHER

Oh Cipher, have you sworn to never quit? I'm gonna keep practicing my patience as far as you're concerned. The way a software would move a mouse and the way a human would move it are 2 different things. A software moves in set patterns for hours/weeks/forever, humans don't.

I listened to the conversation.

In fact, by the same standards of proof, it is a much stronger case for Hampton attempting to buy software with which to steal from other RTG licensees.

OK that is fine. If that is what you believe then you are more than welcome to do so. But that doesn't change the fact that this guy admitted to using a robot to play on our site when that is strictly forbidden in our terms and conditions.

I don't buy the evidence for a robot either. There are no shortage of computer programmers who could be hired as third parties to verify Hampton's claims. I don't see them offering such proof.

Who do you suggest we use for this? Pirate? Are you suggesting we give him this information so he can figure ways around it and next time he can come in and hoodwink us without a problem.

Even if a robot was used

And that's it really. Everything else is at moot point. He used a robot, he violated our terms and conditions. His winnings have been voided and he has received more than his deposit back. In fact he owes us the difference and I request him to pay up if he's reading this.

Regards

Robert Myers
Public Relations
Hampton Casino

 

[Pirateofc21]

WOW. I can't believe how quick some people are to jump down the casinos
throat. I have only played a couple of times at either Hampton or Portifino, but I must say turning $1,000 investment into over a million dollars would probably cause any casino to be weary. I, too, would hold final judgement on hearing the full evidence, but one thing is clear: pirate does admit to using a program, he has said that he held a job as a programmer in the past, and unlike many of you, I don't buy the line that he was fishing for information. Put yourself in his shoes for a minute: if you're out most of 1.3 million, you absolutely didn't use any "bot", and a guy from the casino calls up and says we'll buy the program. Wouldn't it be- THERE AINT NO F***ING PROGRAM??? Not, gee how much could I get? Come on. You're fishing for what?

.

Now, the tactics used by the casino are underhanded. They worked for their purpose, but is still sleazy.

Let the legal heads have fun with this one, but I would be shocked if pirate ever sees anywhere near any 1.3 million.

I was fishing for the proof that they cannot produce now. Did you hear the whole tape? They couldn't produce it then either
Thank God you are not my legal counsel!

 

[ITSME]

I was fishing for the proof that they cannot produce now. Did you hear the whole tape? They couldn't produce it then either
Thank God you are not my legal counsel!

Hey Sparky...
Why would you be fishing for "the proof" if you did not cheat???

 

[sirius]

Pirate couldn't have gained any player advantage using any sort of program unless it could predict in some way what cards were coming (this isn't what a robot player normally does). If the cards could somehow be predicted, then the RTG software is insecure and unsafe for casinos to use. RTG haven't admitted to this and I find it hard to believe but that is the only explanation for winning so consistently. I don't think he used a robot player in the normal sense.

I still don't know what Pirate has done but it is unlikely he won without exploiting some weakness in the software. This is simply because he also had a $70k balance at Delano's which he won from a mere $400 deposit. That is unlikely enough but together with the other wins (namely at Hampton's) it seems almost impossible.

Pirate told me that together with the other two recordings, it was most of the conversation. It was actually the same conversation in all three recordings (Pirate said: "the 2 clips I posted are part of that recording"). He said there was another conversation with his wife that the casino has a recording of too but hasn't released.

The Pirate told me: "If you put the 2 pieces from earlier together with this call you will have most of the conversation. This is it. I was told the money is no more so WTF I had to find out what the hell they could have and of course he wouldn't give anything up because they don't have any proof. "

The two other recordings are in the 'NEWS AND VIEWS' section of my forum at www.faircasinos.com/forum

 

[Pirateofc21]

OK I'm back

First of all, I think a lot of people posted here without actually
listening to the conversation. I'm talking about people who say they did
not hear any admission of guilt.

So here's a transcript of the first half a minute or so of the posted
conversation :

Ron @ Hampton casino : Let's be honest with each other because we're at
the point where there's no sense in lying anymore. We're beyond that.
Now let's profit from the experience. Talk about the program, the robot.
Player : Talk about the robot....
Ron @ Hampton casino : How much is it worth to you? Do you wanna sell it?
Player : Yeah I wanna sell it
Ron @ Hampton casino : How much do you want for it?
Player : Off the top of my head just to begin there, six figures

The case ends right there. We didn't even need to post any other part of
the conversation. He says he has this Robot/program that cheats RTG
casinos and is willing to sell it for six figures.

Any more details should be completely unnecessary but I will try to
answer some of the other points anyway in my vain attempt to satisfy
everybody.

Some of you keep insisting that we send copies of his "player logs" to
Michael Shackleford or some other person who can corroborate the fact
that this player cheated. Michael Shackleford will be unable to help in
this regard. He is a mathematician. He can analyze the hands played and
that's pretty much it. That is not how we realized that he used a robot.

We analyzed the pattern on how the mouse was moved, at what intervals
was the software clicked on etc etc. Nothing a Mathematical/gambling
expert could corroborate.

Now the other issues,

gamblinboi, I will address your problem right now. Please email me your
username at [email protected]
docdekay, you and all other sportsbook players are being paid in full.
You will be receiving your withdrawal this week if you haven't received
it already.

Regards

Robert Myers
Public Relations
Hampton Casino

Dear Mr. Myers, Are you sure that you want to say you analyzed my "mouse" movements. It is not possible to analyze my mouse movements. I don't use a mouse, I use the keys. You are beat by your own lie. Up, Down, Left, Right, Diagonal, they are all there on the number pad of any standard keyboard. The function is called "mousekeys" and it is standard on all Windows based PC's. Your analysis isn't based in fact. I Don't use a mouse. Next time hire some techs who know the difference between a mouse movement and a keystroke!

 

[mary]

Robert,

please do me the courtesy of thinking longer before replying to my post.

In fact, by the same standards of proof, it is a much stronger case for Hampton attempting to buy software with which to steal from other RTG licensees.

OK that is fine. If that is what you believe then you are more than welcome to do so. But that doesn't change the fact that this guy admitted to using a robot to play on our site when that is strictly forbidden in our terms and conditions.

I did not post that is what I believed. I posted that if that is the standard of evidence Hampton wants us to consider sufficient proof, then Hampton is also guilty of attempting to purchase software to cheat other RTG casinos.

So, what is Hampton going to do with that employee? Shouldn't he be fired? You have recordings of him colluding with a programmer to rip off other casinos.

I don't buy the evidence for a robot either. There are no shortage of computer programmers who could be hired as third parties to verify Hampton's claims. I don't see them offering such proof.

Who do you suggest we use for this? Pirate? Are you suggesting we give him this information so he can figure ways around it and next time he can come in and hoodwink us without a problem.

Nice misdirection. You do realize that there are many programmers in the world. Heck, they even work on things other than online casinos that require--gosh--much of the same kind of inputs and code.

Maybe you don't know this because your casino is still writing checks by hand and using birds to send checks as well as calculating by abacus...

And what about that Frank Catania guy? You probably don't even know who he is.

[/i]

And that's it really. Everything else is at moot point. He used a robot, he violated our terms and conditions. His winnings have been voided and he has received more than his deposit back. In fact he owes us the difference and I request him to pay up if he's reading this.

Let us assume that Hampton's assertion that a robot had been used is correct. Then the ruse of buying the robot to take down other casinos is nonsensical. That Hampton's investigator attempted to use such a ruse is evidence that Hampton did not believe the software to be a robot, but something more involved, that could take down a negative expectation game.

In other words, Robert, the phone call is evidence that Hampton does not believe the software that was used to be a robot. That Hampton has no evidence for a robot. Hampton also has no evidence for another form of software.

Hampton has not presented a mathematical argument of why it is impossible for the player to have won fairly, within the constraints of the game. Why it is more unlikely than a player winning any large slot jackpot or state lottery. What were Hampton's calculations of the odds of this event occuring? No guess, no hunches, no feelings--give us math.

Hampton, after trying to weasel in a wagering requirement, was paying this player before the player himself started posting jibes. If Hampton had no evidence then why does Hampton have evidence now? The casino's case is based solely on the player's own words--and they are not unambiguous--certainly more ambiguous than Hampton's own words suborning fraud, adding post wagering requirements, and misrepresenting their "evidence".

 

[cipher]

Oh Cipher, have you sworn to never quit? I'm gonna keep practicing my patience as far as you're concerned.

Regards

Robert Myers
Public Relations
Hampton Casino

That would probably be not only the safest but certainly the most diligent decision you've made yet.

Cipher

 

[Pirateofc21]

Hey Sparky...
Why would you be fishing for "the proof" if you did not cheat???

You obviously can't read. The answer to your question is above your head. That's up in case you didn't know.

 

[Pirateofc21]

WOW. I can't believe how quick some people are to jump down the casinos
throat. I have only played a couple of times at either Hampton or Portifino, but I must say turning $1,000 investment into over a million dollars would probably cause any casino to be weary. I, too, would hold final judgement on hearing the full evidence, but one thing is clear: pirate does admit to using a program, he has said that he held a job as a programmer in the past, and unlike many of you, I don't buy the line that he was fishing for information. Put yourself in his shoes for a minute: if you're out most of 1.3 million, you absolutely didn't use any "bot", and a guy from the casino calls up and says we'll buy the program. Wouldn't it be- THERE AINT NO F***ING PROGRAM??? Not, gee how much could I get? Come on. You're fishing for what?

Now, the tactics used by the casino are underhanded. They worked for their purpose, but is still sleazy.

Let the legal heads have fun with this one, but I would be shocked if pirate ever sees anywhere near any 1.3 million.

You obviously didn't listen to all that has been posted. I Clearly stated at several differen't points that there is no robot program. Try listening again.

 

[Pirateofc21]

Finally. Someone that is posting on this board without downing a couple shots before posting. This is amazing. This guy takes 1000 bucks and turns it into 1.3 millionyeah right. This isnt my first time to the promThen as opposed to going to an attorney he gets on the boards and begins bashing the casino because he was not paid in full (These guys paid him about 25G). He then posts snippets that are all over the place and you can tell that they are completely edited. Finally the casino posts something where he clearly says that he created the program and says that he would be interested in a deal for the program. (His defense is that he is fishing.FOR WHAT? Tuna? What could he gain by saying that he created the program? Did he think that the casino was gonna send him the money and then ask him if at some point in the near future he would send them the program? PLEASE! We did not just fall off of the turnip truck.
In my humble opinion the guy is full of S***T.
I would be interested in hearing the entire 30 minutes. But, as far as Im concerned he is a liar.
BTWnice name he chosePiratec21. Next time before he holds up a bank he should take out a TV commercial announcing the time and place!

I wouldn't expect you to understand. As you stated above this is not your first time to the prom. Unlike you I graduated from High School the first time around. I stated earlier that the recordings stopping and starting is a function of my machine. Pre set recording times. That means that it will only record for a certain amount of time and then resets itself.

 

[xianna]

You've done a lot of winning, that's for sure, Pirate.

Did you lose any money at all while you were playing this game? Have you lost any of your winnings?

Just kind of curious.

 

[Pirateofc21]

You've done a lot of winning, that's for sure, Pirate.

Did you lose any money at all while you were playing this game? Have you lost any of your winnings?

Just kind of curious.

I had a downward run where I went thru approx. 300,000 down to about a 75,000 balance before my luck turned around.

 

[spearmaster]

We analyzed the pattern on how the mouse was moved, at what intervals was the software clicked on etc etc. Nothing a Mathematical/gambling
expert could corroborate

Bullshit. Any third-grade math student is taught how to detect patterns like "What is the next number in the series 1,3,6,10..." - so any sort of click pattern would have been noticeable even over a period of time.

Mouse movements? LMFAO... there is NO WAY IN HELL your software is monitoring every mouse movement because your servers would grind to a halt from the data overload... what total bullshit is that?

You think we're all a bunch of idiots out here or what?

Stop spinning the lies. Come up with proof or pay up. You are in quicksand and every move just causes you to sink further.

Send the logs to Casinomeister - and he can then decide what to do with them - if you're so certain of Pirate's guilt.

 

[ITSME]

I wouldn't expect you to understand. As you stated above this is not your first time to the prom. Unlike you I graduated from High School the first time around. I stated earlier that the recordings stopping and starting is a function of my machine. Pre set recording times. That means that it will only record for a certain amount of time and then resets itself.

Pirate. I realize that I'd need to get up "pretty early in the morning" to compete with your wit and intelligence. (especially because you've managed the challenging feat of graduating high school your first time out)
Your arguments are both pedestrian and pedantic. You are missing the point. Allow me to try and simplify this for you. (I'll type slowly so that perhaps you can understand).
There is absolutely no dispute between you and your casino that you CLEARLY admitted to using a robot which is against their policies. Your argument is that the only reason that you admitted this is because you were trying to "fish" .
All i simply ask is what were you fishing for? Are you saying that you were fishing to find out what they know? If this is the case you obviously were cheating them. Otherwise...their would be "nothing to know".
Or were you trying to FOOL them into thinking that you created a program to outwit the RTG system? And you were expecting that they were gonna send you a check for claiming that you did this.
I am simply confused.
Listen, i hate casinos that cheat as much as the next person. However,
it is simply just as unfair as a pirate cheating.

 

[HamptonCasino]

Guys guys, I reiterate for one last time. I have posted this guy's conversation saying he has a robot that cheats RTG casinos and he's interested in selling and I think we can all agree that that there is not 1 valid argument that has been made against that. He said it. NOT US. Let us not forget that. At this point, there is nothing more to say unless somebody can dispute that and I don't see how because he's admitted that it is him on the phone saying this.

I count this as pretty much "Case closed" unless "new evidence" is introduced into the fray by Pirate or somebody else.

Thank you,

Robert Myers
Public Relations
Hampton Casino

 

[spearmaster]

Talk about a cop-out...

Even if he DID use a bot, you have no reasonable grounds under which to exclude the play unless you can prove that he took advantage of a flaw in the program.

Other more prominent and respectable softwares actually have bots BUILT-IN.

Time for you to get real. Every step you take in the current direction destroys the future viability of your business.

 

[jyde]

Other more prominent and respectable softwares actually have bots BUILT-IN.

LOL - now RTG has to dump the development of a competitor to the Microgaming Viper. There's no way in hell they can ever release a software version with autoplay.

The anti bot terms are leftovers from Hamptons UG-days and you don't see it at other RTG-casinos - because the terms don't make sense with RTG games and todays wager requirements on bonuses.

On an average day on a random game a robot will help you lose money while you're doing other stuff. What's the problem with that - mr. Myers?

If you discovered a bug in the software and programmed your robot to take advantage of it, it's a different story - and that's what the RTG standard terms deal with.

Unified Gaming used to offer a positive expectation BJ - apparantly that's why they added the anti robot terms. Judging from the old posts at WOL and the OPA-archives it appears they've been using the robot-crap as standard excuse for not paying winners. Check out this old thread from 2001

 

[tricon11]

This is an amazing thread to say the least. It's like reading a detective novel LOL! I don't have anything to interject in to this as I am just an objective observer, but!

I did notice one thing; I guess this would be to your attention Pirateofc21,
ITSME just signed up to this forum 02/10.
Take that for what its worth ;o)

Bryan good luck with this mess, I am sure youre enjoying all the hits, but I would not want to be in your position.
Vince

 

[jetset]

Cop out is the right phrase to use, Spear and I find myself sharing your opinion here. And I note that Hampton has not contested your view that their post on mouse mapping was nonsense.

It strikes me that Hampton is conveniently ignoring the very questionable manner in which it sought to disallow these significant winnings, and the fact that there is also a large question mark over their claims that they additionally have technical proof.

There are serious legal constraints on the use and results of entrapment and this incident illustrates why these are so necessary. And why the corroborative proof of this technical evidence Hampton claim they have is now crucial.

Much as Mr.Myers would like to simply walk away from this situation he does so at the risk of his company sustaining lasting damage to reputation and business whilst the dispute remains unresolved.

Both parties have behaved badly in this matter, and earlier suggestions that they seek a competent and unbiased legal assessment as part of a fairly negotiated solution are probably wise.

 

[caruso]

Hampton have invested a lot in the "He said it so case closed" line - that much is apparent from the constant repetitions. There clearly isn't any evidence of anything, and hopes are being pinned on this "confession"; the "mouse" claims are obviously silly and unsubstantiated.

"He said it so case closed".

If I hold a gun to your head and tell you to confess to crime ABC or I'll pull the trigger, is your subsequent confession VALID???? Is it LEGALLY ACCEPTABLE??? Would any judge or jury accept that confession in those circumstances???

My lack of legal expertise aside, I would guess that the leading and entrapping manner in which this "confession" was obtained would be sufficient to have the casino's case thrown out of court very quickly.

G2B's point about the need to ascertain that the bot in question manipulated the results to give a player advantage is valid enough, but the fact is that there is no evidence of a bot! There is no evidence of anything. The casino tells us about "mouse movements" - this is the evidence??? Gimme a break.

Bottom line: NO evidence has been forthcoming, and the matter of the player "confession" that the casino is so pinning its hopes on is completely inadmissable and invalidated given the manner in which it was obtained.

 

[The Dude]

Bottom line: NO evidence has been forthcoming, and the matter of the player "confession" that the casino is so pinning its hopes on is completely inadmissable and invalidated given the manner in which it was obtained.

Lest we forget, this is not a courtroom. This is a forum - a place for discussion.

There are a number of posters who are posting their comments with piecemeal "evidence", and this is what is exasberating this situation. There was no gun to anyone's head, so your analogy doesn't quite work. There were two people having a conversation. You have only been given a sample. And unfortunately this is what everyone so far is basing their opinions on.

I still feel that P21 ought to take Cipher's suggestions (Cipher - have you made contact with him yet)?

As for people just signing up and posting--more power to them. This is an open forum where about two thirds of the visitors linger and lurk until they have something to say. ITSME finally had something to say, so a sign up date is irrelevant.

 

[Pirateofc21]

Lest we forget, this is not a courtroom. This is a forum - a place for discussion.

There are a number of posters who are posting their comments with piecemeal "evidence", and this is what is exasberating this situation. There was no gun to anyone's head, so your analogy doesn't quite work. There were two people having a conversation. You have only been given a sample. And unfortunately this is what everyone so far is basing their opinions on.

I still feel that P21 ought to take Cipher's suggestions (Cipher - have you made contact with him yet)?

As for people just signing up and posting--more power to them. This is an open forum where about two thirds of the visitors linger and lurk until they have something to say. ITSME finally had something to say, so a sign up date is irrelevant.

Yes, thanks.

 

[cipher]

I still feel that P21 ought to take Cipher's suggestions (Cipher - have you made contact with him yet)?

Hi Bryan, YES.

 

[cipher]

LOL - now RTG has to dump the development of a competitor to the Microgaming Viper. There's no way in hell they can ever release a software version with autoplay.

The anti bot terms are leftovers from Hamptons UG-days and you don't see it at other RTG-casinos - because the terms don't make sense with RTG games and todays wager requirements on bonuses.

On an average day on a random game a robot will help you lose money while you're doing other stuff. What's the problem with that - mr. Myers?

If you discovered a bug in the software and programmed your robot to take advantage of it, it's a different story - and that's what the RTG standard terms deal with.

Unified Gaming used to offer a positive expectation BJ - apparantly that's why they added the anti robot terms. Judging from the old posts at WOL and the OPA-archives it appears they've been using the robot-crap as standard excuse for not paying winners. Check out this old thread from 2001

That's a very solid post JYDE.

CIPHER

 

[jetset]

Bryan, I would with respect take issue with your comment "Lest we forget, this is not a courtroom. This is a forum - a place for discussion."

There is a substantial amount of money on the table here and although this may be a discussion where we are all entitled to give voice to our thoughts in a civilised manner, we are examining so-called evidence that has been amassed in an improper manner, and the commonly accepted rules of evidence have to be a guide as to its credibility imv.

One side is as far as we can see from the information posted thus far, relying heavily on an admission which was not obtained in the course of a normal conversation by any stretch of the imagination. The tone of the Hampton manager was leading and even overbearing in my view, based solely on the edited tape that Hampton made available. That is my opinion - others have the right to differ.

Therefore the propriety of the tactics used on both sides, and its possible impact on the acceptability of the evidence being presented is a valid element of the discussion.

But I do agree that the message boards are not the place to resolve this type of dispute, and both parties have probably hurt their cases by doing so and would be better advised to follow your advice in seeking legal help...in private.

 

[islandmaan]

Spear what is the next number?

Hey Spear in an earlier post you said "What is the next number in the series 1,3,6,10..." ? Can you tell me what is the next number?

With that in mind everybody take a deap breath, all of this is doing nothing more than hurting our industry which is something we don't need.

BTW i really do want to know the next number and why?

Brian

 

[thesmacker]

Hey Spear in an earlier post you said "What is the next number in the series 1,3,6,10..." ? Can you tell me what is the next number?

Next number is 15, take the first number and add 2, next number add 3, next number add 4, next number add 5. See the pattern? LOL
BTW, Hampton still has not provided any physical proof as to how they know the player used a robot. Were waiting Hamptons, once you do this no one will ever question your integrity again, if you don't, you will continue to be under fire. If you do have proof, other then a coerced statement, please tell us what it is and then the "case will be closed".
Cheers

 

[spearmaster]

Hey Spear in an earlier post you said "What is the next number in the series 1,3,6,10..." ? Can you tell me what is the next number?

With that in mind everybody take a deap breath, all of this is doing nothing more than hurting our industry which is something we don't need.

BTW i really do want to know the next number and why?

Brian

errmm... 62.5?

15... each successive number increases by the value of its position in the series.

Thus:

1st number: 1

2nd number: 3 (1+2)

3rd number: 6 (3+3)

4th number: 10 (6+4)

5th number: 15 (10+5)

Fortunately for me, I graduated from 4th grade

 

[spearmaster]

Not fair, Smacker! He asked me.... waaah!

 

[gamblinboi]

i agree with spearmaster about it being next to impossible for them to track mouse movements- the amount of data generated would be tremendous. Although in the conversation the player does sound like he's talking about a robot, it ALSO sounds like Hampton casino TOLD him to say this stuff, and to make things up all the way.

Hampton - POST the ENTIRE conversation(s). POST the gamelogs. Show us the PROOF that this guy cheated. There are some smart people here - math experts, software developers, engineers, etc etc. I'm sure if you have PROOF people could sit down and figure it out. But the way you sound, you don't have proof - you have allegations, you have a (ridiculous) conversation which sounds like you forced him to say stuff about a robot, and even MORE ridiculous allegations as to the capability of RTG software to track mouse movements. The software CAN track time of click (indeed that's inherent in the design of almost any computer system) - so post the logs and show us him playing thousands of hands non stop with the regularlity only a computer could do.

HamptonCasino, I sent you an email with my username regarding the theft of $100 from me. No response to that yet, looking forward to it.

 

[love2vegas]

SOME REPLIES TO TODAYS POSTS:
__________________________________
PIRATE SAID:You obviously didn't listen to all that has been posted. I Clearly stated at several differen't points that there is no robot program. Try listening again.
________________________________

I have CAREFULLY LISTENED TO ALL THAT WAS POSTED. YOU ADMIT to the casino that you used a program. You even try to work out a deal for $300,000 to sell it. This is without a doubt the ace in the hole for the casino.
Their terms (as ridiculous as it may or may not be) are clearly stated. And it may save them over a million dollars, so as crazy as some of the posters here think it is, or as slanted as it may be, there may be a good case for them to have these terms.

____________________________________
PIRATE AGAIN: I was fishing for the proof that they cannot produce now. Did you hear the whole tape? They couldn't produce it then either
Thank God you are not my legal counsel!
____________________________________

1.) How could I hear the whole tape, since you only have parts & the casino only has other parts posted? (I have listened to everything as posted)
2.) Don't need to be a lawyer to know a couple of things:
A.) You don't ADMIT to anything if you didn't do it. WHICH YOU DO ON THE CASINO TAPE.
B.) You don't use a forum to make your case- you use a lawyer. When approached by the casino, instead of "making a deal" for $300,000 for a progam you supposedly never had- you SHUT UP and have a lawyer contact them. We're talkin' a million bucks here!
C.) I couldn't have been a worse lawyer than the way you've handled this. Speaking of which, it is interesting that the lawyer you did contact said you had absolutely no case. Humm, remind me never to take you fishing!

And, before the casino tape was posted, this is your statement to Bryan:
__________________________________
I honestly did not admit to anything.
__________________________________

HUH? Have you listened to your own tape?????????????


____________________________________
ITSME WROTE: Listen, i hate casinos that cheat as much as the next person. However,
it is simply just as unfair as a pirate cheating.
____________________________________

Right on ITSME!! I have been screwed by tricky casino terms and
had delays, tricks, etc. used. It pissses me off. But, I don't think it
right for a player to cheat a casino. (And, I bet you managed to graduate high school, too- no matter what the genius pirate implies!)

FINALLY- TRICON II- I'm not sure what the comment about ITSME only recently joined has to do with anything? Is the forum suppose to be only for people who have been around for a few months, years, or what???

 

[dave_r]

Will someone please explain to me how a robot can overcome the house edge on a negative expectation game? It is simply impossible. Therefore, I agree completely with Sirius:

Caribbean 21 had a FLAW in it.
This is the only explanation that actually makes sense.

Either 1 of 2 possibilities are realistic:

1) The game was never truely random, and that P21 actually figured out a way to exploit this.

2) This whole thing was an inside job. One of the programmers at RTG (perhaps the developer of Caribbean 21 himself) implemented a cheat mode into the game. This programmer may have revealed this cheat mode to his best friend (computer programming buddy P21), and a robot was developed by either of them. Plans were made to split the profits if the scam worked. $1.3 MILLION is nothing to laugh at.

My bet is that of the latter possibility.
Mr. Staw should conduct a full scale investigation.

Will RTG ever publicly admit the game was flawed? NEVER!

 

[HamptonCasino]

Talk about a cop-out...

Even if he DID use a bot, you have no reasonable grounds under which to exclude the play unless you can prove that he took advantage of a flaw in the program.

I'm sorry that is incorrect. These terms and conditions have been placed quite clearly on our site for years now. So the question I have for you is :

Does the terms and conditions page mean something or not? If not, then it says that we have to pay clients within 7 days. Then we could stretch that to 30 days or 3 years or whatever. Because the terms don't mean anything do they?

I'm sorry. That's not how we work. The terms are there and the player has to live by them just like us. If you violate our terms you won't get paid. Play within the rules, terms and conditions clearly defined on our site and you won't have a problem just like the thousands of players that have played and won with us and have been paid without a problem over the players.

Regards

Robert Myers
Public Relations
Hampton Casino

 

[thesmacker]

Its very discerning that the Hamptons manager completely ignores all questions asked to him and chooses to focus on irrelevent details. Why dont you provide us with the physical evidence of how you are so sure the player used a robot and no one will ever say another bad thing about you again(and I dont mean the sketchy recorded conversations). Because you refuse to provide the public with this indisputable physical evidence which you claim to have you remain under attack. So provide it, if you in fact have it, and that will be the end of it.

 

[cipher]

"If you violate our terms you won't get paid. Play within the rules, terms and conditions clearly defined on our site and you won't have a problem just like the thousands of players that have played and won with us and have been paid without a problem over the players."

Except for those players that are unfortunate enough to win 1.3 million plus.

This has been cut and pasted directly from your website:

"For your added protection, we maintain a complete audit trail of each individual transaction for all the games that you play. At your request we would be pleased to make these files available to you for inspection."

FOR THE RECORD MR. MEYERS THOSE FILES HAVE BEEN REPEATEDLY REQUESTED BY THE OWNER OF THE ACCOUNT IN QUESTION AND YOU AND YOUR ORGANIZATION HAVE STEADFASTLY REFUSED THOSE REPEATED REQUESTS.

CIPHER

 

[mary]

...Play within the rules, terms and conditions clearly defined on our site and you won't have a problem just like the thousands of players that have played and won with us and have been paid without a problem over the players.

Regards

Robert Myers
Public Relations
Hampton Casino

When Hampton believed that this was a legitimate win Hampton attempted to impose an additional wagering requirement for the player to get paid. That is to say, minimum action *each week* for 6 1/2 years.

I'd call that "a problem". I'd call that a "change of terms".

At least that had a logical rationale-- Hampton wanted its money back. Why have a rule against robot play for negative expectation games? The casino would make *more* money...like Microgaming casinos.

Whether or not this player gets paid--and I hope that a mutually satisfactory solution can be reached--Hampton's credibility is taking a hit here.

Even with proof of robot play--which has not been demonstrated--Hampton will be known as "the place that won't pay big wins by using a stupid rule". After all, if a player uses a robot and loses, Hampton doesn't give the money back.

Interesting thought. What is Hampton's policy if a player uses a robot, loses, and notifies the casino with proof of using a robot?