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Casino Complaint Royal Vegas takes my deposits and winnings

maxd said:
Okay, yes the OP's PAB has been received and is in progress. But yes also I am totally snowed under at the moment with PABs, like 60+ on the go at the moment. It doesn't help that I was down with a bad case of the flu for almost two weeks at which time, of course, a new flood of PABs arrived.

So bear with me as I plow through these.

@ HIGHIQ : you know very well that your PAB is in progress and we have communicated privately several times about it. As it happens your case is at the point where I need to make a difficult decision and that takes a space of time that I'm having difficulty finding, for the reasons given above. Also, I don't appreciate you dragging this out onto the forums in order to pressure me to focus on your PAB and ignore the others. The FAQ makes it perfectly clear that difficult cases can take some time to work through and you know very well that yours is one such case. If you can't accept that then I'll take your recent post here as your decision to take your issue elsewhere, if that's what you want. Be patient, read the damn Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ and respect it or we don't have much further to say to each other.
Click to expand...

Max,

The PABs can wait. So whether the Pabers like it or not your health comes first. Take care.
 
maxd said:
Okay, yes the OP's PAB has been received and is in progress. But yes also I am totally snowed under at the moment with PABs, like 60+ on the go at the moment. It doesn't help that I was down with a bad case of the flu for almost two weeks at which time, of course, a new flood of PABs arrived.

So bear with me as I plow through these.

@ HIGHIQ : you know very well that your PAB is in progress and we have communicated privately several times about it. As it happens your case is at the point where I need to make a difficult decision and that takes a space of time that I'm having difficulty finding, for the reasons given above. Also, I don't appreciate you dragging this out onto the forums in order to pressure me to focus on your PAB and ignore the others. The FAQ makes it perfectly clear that difficult cases can take some time to work through and you know very well that yours is one such case. You think you are hard done by because it's taken 5 weeks thus far: some cases take years so I'd suggest that you consider yourself lucky that yours won't be one of those.

If you can't accept these conditions then I'll take your recent post here as your decision to take your issue elsewhere, if that's what you want. Be patient, read the damn Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ and respect it or we don't have much further to say to each other.
Click to expand...
sorry MAX didnt knew u had flu.. i thought u missed the mails or it didnt go through...now i know and i respect for sure the rules... and thanks for this fast reply ..

once again my apologise if u didnt feel comfortable with it..

be better soon Max..
 
Sorry dude, major snafu in the object repository, damn things went rogue and dropped instances in the real world. :D
 
filterss2 said:
Do Fortune Lounge people hope that I will die before they will have to pay me
my winnings? Three full weeks and still no news.
Click to expand...

When I accepted and logged your PAB in I sent you an email that said:

Finally a gentle reminder that we expect you to have read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ (
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
). Please pay special attention to the restrictions regarding forum posts while your PAB is active (
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
).
Click to expand...

You ignored that so I reminded you here in the thread, see post #95.

Now you've ignored it again. Game over: your PAB is toast, though I will send you a final email regarding your case.
 
filterss2 said:
Do Fortune Lounge people hope that I will die before they will have to pay me
my winnings? Three full weeks and still no news.
Click to expand...

Eh? You should know full well what was going on. We have an extensive reply from the casino rep that describes in detail your activity at the FL casinos and which terms you broke. You received your deposit back, yes? Quit your whining. you knew exactly what you were doing.

Next time, don't collude with other players and you shouldn't have any issues.
 
bpb said:
I'd ask how it's possible to collude with other players at a single player casino ... but I already know the answer.
Click to expand...

Oh really? What is it? You should know since collusion has been discussed in this forum ad nauseum and you're a long term member.

You should be able to explain to everyone, especially to the newbies, that collusion does not only pertain to a poker room where one shares card information with other players: collusion rules are enforced by every casino that is properly licensed or cares to maintain a credible business. But like you said, you already knew that. :rolleyes:
 
Casinomeister said:
Eh? You should know full well what was going on. We have an extensive reply from the casino rep that describes in detail your activity at the FL casinos and which terms you broke. You received your deposit back, yes? Quit your whining. you knew exactly what you were doing.

Next time, don't collude with other players and you shouldn't have any issues.
Click to expand...

So the result was the deposits were returned and the winnings were void?

The "irregular play" was collusion?
 
Casinomeister said:
Her account is associated with 40+ other accounts. That's all I'm going to say in the matter.
Click to expand...

Bryan, the problem is that there is always a group of members who refuse to accept the conclusions/findings of yourself and Max, even though you have both seen ALL the evidence and they have not.

Another problem is that some (especially other fraudsters) want a detailed, in-depth explanation of precisely what happened and precisely what the player concerned did to defraud the casino. I accept that a few might be genuinely curious, but personally I cannot see any reason, besides how to circumvent the operators security measures, that anyone would NEED to know all the details.

Once again, it boils down to trust. We as members accept that the PAB process is confidential and that no evidence supplied by the casino will be posted publicly. So, it is a fact that NONE of us have ALL the facts. Personally, I post an opinion based on what the complainant posts, and review that opinion when the operator provides additional information. In the end, however, I am making judgements without all the facts.....as is everyone else.....and I always accept the outcome of the PAB process, even when my opinion might be at odds with it. I make that choice because I have enough trust in Bryan and Max to be fair and impartial and to assess the facts as they are. I see no point in arguing about the fine details, because I don't know what they are...and don't need to know.

My understanding is that collusion takes many forms, and that operators do everything they can to weed it out. So, if it's totally harmless and doesn't cost them money, why bother doing anything about it? The sheer amount of time and resources probably wouldn't be worth it in some cases....but it is obviously a serious problem and they want to make a statement that it will not be tolerated.

Remember, we aren't talking about some rogue outfit or a shit-pot mom-and-pop setup.....this is Fortune Lounge...they are about as solid as they come. We have seen other reputable outfits taking similar steps to weed out collusion, and some reps have actually gone further than they should in explaining WHY it is bad for business and constitutes player fraud.

Do I completely understand collusion? No. Do I accept that it exists and is a problem? Yes. When Bryan says the OP is connected to 40+ accounts, then I accept it....he has seen the evidence, and we have not. I don't NEED to know what those connections are....I can probably take a few guesses, but it doesn't really matter to me because I just play and don't go around trying to defraud online casinos.

I would say that NO genuine player should have ANY fear about being accused of collusion. I would also say that my casino accounts are not connected to any other player in any way, except perhaps for approximate geographical area, which I assume is not one of the issues around collusion (by itself anyway).

My question to those who don't believe collusion exists......Why all the hoo-hah about it? Why all the confiscations across so many operators over the years? Just to save a few bucks?? Makes no sense. I'm genuinely interested to hear your replies.
 
Casinomeister said:
Her account is associated with 40+ other accounts. That's all I'm going to say in the matter.
Click to expand...

May I ask: associated in which way? Is it only about the same games played (as Wim wrote in this thread before - "It is also exactly (Exact roulette game and subsequent slots wagers) how several other players attempted to breach our terms"))? Or did you find some new supporting evidences?
 
hakapuku said:
May I ask: associated in which way? Is it only about the same games played (as Wim wrote in this thread before - "It is also exactly (Exact roulette game and subsequent slots wagers) how several other players attempted to breach our terms"))? Or did you find some new supporting evidences?
Click to expand...

We are not going to be told EXACTLY how the accounts were connected. Such information is never revealed from the PAB process.

You know this already.

Why do you NEED to know precisely what happened? Sharpening your skills?
 
hakapuku said:
May I ask: associated in which way? Is it only about the same games played (as Wim wrote in this thread before - "It is also exactly (Exact roulette game and subsequent slots wagers) how several other players attempted to breach our terms"))? Or did you find some new supporting evidences?
Click to expand...

He's already said enough. You should know from experience PABs will come down on the side of the player if the casino is dishonest or uncooperative. If the casino provides evidence to Max of sufficient quality that corroborates their side and proves player dishonesty or error, then the player is cast into the fire pit.

Plus you have seen numerous newbies on here trying it on as if we are all wet behind the ears.

I also provided an example on here a while back which shows collusion pays when done in conjunction with games like roulette or multiplayer BJ when a bonus is taken. Poker is a slightly different matter in that collusion works without any bonus necessary due to the nature of the game.

Surely you really know this anyway. The details are irrelevant provided that you trust Max to do his voluntary services impartially.
 
At the risk of stating the obvious hakapuku knows all of this. He's bear-baiting, hoping to get someone to say something that he can either use personally or hold up as something to scoff at with his "buddies". Ignore the trolls.
 
dunover said:
He's already said enough. You should know from experience PABs will come down on the side of the player if the casino is dishonest or uncooperative. If the casino provides evidence to Max of sufficient quality that corroborates their side and proves player dishonesty or error, then the player is cast into the fire pit.

Plus you have seen numerous newbies on here trying it on as if we are all wet behind the ears.

I also provided an example on here a while back which shows collusion pays when done in conjunction with games like roulette or multiplayer BJ when a bonus is taken. Poker is a slightly different matter in that collusion works without any bonus necessary due to the nature of the game.

Surely you really know this anyway. The details are irrelevant provided that you trust Max to do his voluntary services impartially.
Click to expand...

Somehow, I know more than you about this situation. The OP was banned here (why?) but has posted Maxd's reply to her on a different webforum. And Maxd wrote to her that although he himself considers the terms applied to her not to be good (irregular play terms)- still she accepted those "wrong" rules and now must be punished. The word "collusion" is not even mentioned in his correspondence with her. Here, after the OP was banned (again why?), the collusion card was one and only used to explain "everything".
 
hakapuku said:
... the OP was banned (again why?) ....
Click to expand...

Again, read much?

It says it right under the OP's name: "Banned User - bogus PAB".

If you bothered to take 2 seconds to look at the PAB process you would see that the header for the PAB submission page says:
WARNING: FRAUDULENT CLAIMS WILL BE FULLY INVESTIGATED - FRAUDSTERS WILL BE EXPOSED AND BANNED FROM CASINOMEISTER!
Click to expand...

I'd say that pretty much explains it.

I'll amend what I said earlier: ignore the trolls, especially the ones who obviously haven't a clue what they're talking about and could hardly care less.
 
dunover said:
He's already said enough. You should know from experience PABs will come down on the side of the player if the casino is dishonest or uncooperative. If the casino provides evidence to Max of sufficient quality that corroborates their side and proves player dishonesty or error, then the player is cast into the fire pit.

Plus you have seen numerous newbies on here trying it on as if we are all wet behind the ears.

I also provided an example on here a while back which shows collusion pays when done in conjunction with games like roulette or multiplayer BJ when a bonus is taken. Poker is a slightly different matter in that collusion works without any bonus necessary due to the nature of the game.

Surely you really know this anyway. The details are irrelevant provided that you trust Max to do his voluntary services impartially.
Click to expand...

The only way collusion can be a useful tool is if the terms and conditions allow them to be. If the terms and conditions or even better, the software itself limits bet sizes on table games collusion would be a waste of time.

If a casino doesn't want people taking their generous bonus and wagering a few huge bets on table games and then grinding the WR out on slots there is a simple and effective way to stop this. It does not include allowing people to bet almost 1/3 of their bonus on a roulette table at once.

I still don't understand how 40 people who know each other taking the same bonus and betting the most their allowed on a roulette table and then grinding the WR down on slot games is any different that 40 people who don't know each other doing it. The odds for the casino to come out ahead should be no different. 40 people using the same strategy is still 40 people using the same strategy whether they split up their winnings or not. The amount of people using this strategy and the fact they know each other or created some fool proof plan to profit off the bonus is not the problem.

The problem is the casino didn't have the foresight to set the WR, max bet and bonus amount to avoid what they consider "bonus abuse." Casinos are the ones that always complain when players don't play within the spirit of the bonus. Apparently betting almost 1/3 of the bonus on a roulette wheel at once was within the spirit of this one because it was clearly written in the terms and conditions.

And I still don't agree that casinos should have irregular play listed in the terms and conditions as a reason for confiscating winnings regardless of the fact that they provide a few examples and then tell you the rule is not limited to these. If the rule is not limited to these examples then provide the rest of the examples.

Or even better, set your max bet, WR and bonus amount so that irregular play cannot be an issue.
 
So let me get this straight

OP is a colluding member of some nefarious bonus abusing syndicate 40+ strong ...

Who also happened to break an obvious term of not betting more than 30% of their bonus. (Not the reason for the PAB, but apparently a key part of FL's refusal to pay)

OP should definitely be kicked out of the colluding syndicate, since she's obviously TERRIBLE at it.

OP should also be paid by the casino, as the collusion/irregular betting justification is completely weak-sauce, but whatever. Sure doesn't impact my wallet any.
 
I said forty accounts, not forty people. The amount of energy some of you are investing in this is really a bit bewildering. But then, it's to be expected. Not much on TV tonight. :D
 
Casinomeister said:
I said forty accounts, not forty people. The amount of energy some of you are investing in this is really a bit bewildering. But then, it's to be expected. Not much on TV tonight. :D
Click to expand...

So do we have a proved multiple accounts case here with all 40 accounts linked to each other in some other way than just playing the same strategy ? And if so why do you use the word collusion instead?
 
Casinomeister said:
I said forty accounts, not forty people. The amount of energy some of you are investing in this is really a bit bewildering. But then, it's to be expected. Not much on TV tonight. :D
Click to expand...

Collusion and multi-accounting is not the same thing. One is fraud. One is silly.

If you can prove fraud, the player doesn't get paid. If you can prove collusion the player gets a membership card to whatever little club she belongs to and the casino should know better than to have terms and conditions that make this little club profitable.

If the OP has multiple accounts that should have been the start and the end of a very short conversation.
 
hakapuku said:
So do we have a proved multiple accounts case here with all 40 accounts linked to each other in some other way than just playing the same strategy ? And if so why do you use the word collusion instead?
Click to expand...

I've already explained to you that I'm not going into anymore detail, yet you continue to ride me and Max on this. We've already said enough, and if that's not enough for you, sorry. That's the way it is. Get over it.
 
I must admit I am confused.

Max said in his post regarding the PAB that it was ditched because the OP had been impatient. This was on the 5th November 13.
Max then posted on 6th November that it was now a fraudulent claim WARNING: FRAUDULENT CLAIMS WILL BE FULLY INVESTIGATED - FRAUDSTERS WILL BE EXPOSED AND BANNED FROM CASINOMEISTER!

So am I right that the casino replied on the 23rd October then the OP was banned and PAB sacked 13 days later for asking. But within a day of this, CM had posted he was linked to 40 accounts (I would imagine that its through game play as if it was computer linked this would be fraud and mentioned as in the past posts) and Max has changed it to it being a fraudulent claim and the OP banned from replying his point?

It says he has been banned for a bogus PAB. Was it Bogus if you are to believe Maxs reply posted by hakapuku?
 
Not trying to stir the bee hive. But I always wondered why Fortune Lounge will deal with Casinomeister on issues and Not other sites like GG. Who posts "...we can help others thinking of playing at the Fortune Affiliates group with one word of advice: "Don't". The group includes Royal Vegas, Platinum Play, 7 Sultans, Vegas Palms, Vegas Towers, Poker Time, and Giggle Bingo." :what:

There seems to be a lot of cases with FL, gambling rings and multiple accounts. More so then I seen brought to light then any other casino group. Not saying it doesn't happen within other groups. Just seems to be brought to light more with FL.

When in court, evidence must be presented. Not some backdoor meetings. The accusers has the right to see all evidence against him or her. This is not the case in any of the FL claims.

If this was a REAL casino and someone was caught cheating. The casino will present the tapes and show it. But online is like a kangaroo court.

This remains me of the online players association and online players association 2 with its former board members. ;)
 
If the OP had multiple accounts then she shouldn't be paid. That's a given.

In my opinion collusion shouldn't really make much difference from a casinos point of view on slots and table games like roulette or sic bo if every account is owned by a different player and all players are playing by the casino's rules.

Isn't the worst thing that could happen is some players will beat the bonus and possibly split up the profits? Doesn't the casino expect some people to manage a withdrawal from these bonuses anyway and what difference does it make what they do with the money after it's withdrawn?

Would the casino actually be happier if the same number of people won but didn't know each other? I fully understand how collusion would be profitable on multiplayer games like poker but does it really change the group's odds on a roulette table or a slot machine just because they all belong to the same club? If people want to take a bonus and bet almost 30% of it at a time on a roulette table I say let them. We do know that the odds are in the casino's favour when people play roulette. The casino should be happy when groups of people get together and play it. The more people playing the better are the odds are that the casino is going to come out ahead. Slot machines are the same. It doesn't matter if 10 people are playing it or 10 thousand. The TRTP doesn't change.

I don't really know if collusion is a problem that FL has any more or less than any other casino but I would think that if this really is the case the reason for it would be in the bonus terms and conditions. If groups of people are getting together more frequently at FL than other casinos to beat these bonuses it must be because they feel the bonuses are "collusion friendly."

Although to be honest with you I don't really think any casino game is "come out ahead friendly" regardless of how many people get together in some kind of bonus beating club.
 

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