[Resolved] Casino Club - robot or no bot?

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heffernan

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Hello,

I'm new here. I'm from germany. and probably the most interesting capital of the world. like I am on this site? just had a serious disagreement with a casino. and because someone gave me a tip.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
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Location
Bierland
Hello,

I'm new here. I'm from germany. and probably the most interesting capital of the world. like I am on this site? just had a serious disagreement with a casino. and because someone gave me a tip.
Well, since you are banned now for being a fraudster, you can't read this if you try to log in.

For those of you using bots at Casino Club - you're getting caught out - and you are wasting Max's time with bogus PABs. I'd appreciate it if you'd all go take a hike and pull your crap with somebody else.

BS like this makes me tend to consider shutting down the PAB section for newbies. It's been done before - I'll do it again.
 

Shocked

Quit Gambling
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Location
Staffs UK
Well, since you are banned now for being a fraudster, you can't read this if you try to log in.

For those of you using bots at Casino Club - you're getting caught out - and you are wasting Max's time with bogus PABs. I'd appreciate it if you'd all go take a hike and pull your crap with somebody else.

BS like this makes me tend to consider shutting down the PAB section for newbies. It's been done before - I'll do it again.
Do I detect a whiff of hypocrisy from someone who uses bots himself?



;)
 

hzock2

banned user: fraudulent PAB claims
PABnononaccred
PABnononaccred3
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Location
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Well, since you are banned now for being a fraudster, you can't read this if you try to log in.

For those of you using bots at Casino Club - you're getting caught out - and you are wasting Max's time with bogus PABs. I'd appreciate it if you'd all go take a hike and pull your crap with somebody else.

BS like this makes me tend to consider shutting down the PAB section for newbies. It's been done before - I'll do it again.
Well Bryan, you may be wrong with this one. I just saw this thread and thought, that the username seemed quite familiar to me and I checked back to see that I read about exactly the same problem posted under the same nick on a German Roulette-Strategy/hardcore gambling forum. Actually he there reported that he deposited 80 Euros and gambled it all the way up to 8000 Euro (seems like REAL gambling to me). He furthermore reported that he has been gambling at CC for a long time now and this was his first cash out ever (link:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
).
He was than told to submit a PAB on your site by another member.
So I dont really get the point why he should be using a bot.

I would be very curious to know what prove you were given by Casino Club, because all the info given on the German board seems quite authentic to me and I wonder about the outcome.

Furthermore looking on the Pitch a Bitch history Casino Club seems to scream 'bot fraudster' at any one cashing out a larger amount of money?! I personally experienced lack of support since the beginning of 2008 (long phone queue and no replys to emails) and this is why I wonder if Casino Club is drifting away from being a professional business.

In case he did in fact use a bot, I can of course understand Casino Clubs descision.
 

hzock2

banned user: fraudulent PAB claims
PABnononaccred
PABnononaccred3
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Location
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Casino-Club has now posted the game logs on the German forum. Is this the same 'proof' you got and you made your descision upon? A statement would be appreciated...
 

kimss

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Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
Hah, that gameplay really is interesting! First off all, bot or not I don't care since it shouldn't make a difference. However, look at the gameplay.

Constant betting and you loose, change betsize all time to "shock" system and you keep winning. As soon as you keep going constant betsize you loose. Indeed interesting, or should I say - what I already had a feeling of. However nicely done to see theese stats, infact we have a great play right here!

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Look at the betting patterns, and it pays of aslong as you do NOT repeat the bet after a win! Start doing that and you loose!
 

kimss

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Location
Norway
OMG! I wonder who's the BOT here, the casino or the player? I Dare anyone to accually look at the gameplay here, there are a HUGE pattern on how to win here. Not ONE time does the player have 2 wins in a row in 2216 hands!

If this gameplay doesn't show that online BJ is a laugh I do not know!

Now please anyone who knows deviance or what you call it, please tell me what I do not get in the gameplay here? What is random and fair with this gameplay?

Obviously the betting pattern is forcing a pattern from the way the games are dealt here.

Edit:
Attached is the gameplay posted at the other site, 2216 hands of BJ. There are 3 files in the ZIP file.

bj.txt - the gameplay as posted on german site
bj +.txt, all win lines prefixed with + for easy spotting of wins
bj -.txt, all lose lines prefixed with - for easy spotting losses.
 
Last edited:

Shocked

Quit Gambling
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Dec 22, 2007
Location
Staffs UK
If those are the logs that are supposed to reveal that this player was using a bot then Casino Club have just shot themselves in the foot..with a shotgun...several times..then in the head just for good measure. If anything that hzock2 has said is true, then this casino should be relegated to the rogue bin until they've paid this person out.

My 2p.
 

WAYLANDER

Webmeister
webmeister
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Location
uk
Am i missing something

Am i missing something ?
I am having a bit of trouble working those logs out.. but it does indeed look like the player never won 2 hands in a row in over 2000 hands !

Now if that is true, then that is simply Ludicrous ... the odds of that happening ... are .... well ... Impossible !

WAYLANDER
 

kimss

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Location
Norway
I am having a bit of trouble working those logs out.. but it does indeed look like the player never won 2 hands in a row in over 2000 hands !
You read the log from bottom and up. The first line is the last hand. The format is like this:

Blackjack BJ_WIN1 1,000.00 11-12-2008 06:46 9050 / 10050

1. Game name (blackjack)
2. BJ_WIN1 = win, BJ BET1 = loss
3. balance change (1000 = bet 1000 and win, -500 would equal bet 500 and lose)
4. Date of bet
5. Time of bet
6. Balance before bet
7. Balance after bet

If you have problems reading the file I suggest the free TextPad (google it) to view with, one of the best text editors for the windows platform.
 

Shocked

Quit Gambling
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Location
Staffs UK
Am i missing something ?
I am having a bit of trouble working those logs out.. but it does indeed look like the player never won 2 hands in a row in over 2000 hands !

Now if that is true, then that is simply Ludicrous ... the odds of that happening ... are .... well ... Impossible !

WAYLANDER
It looks like that because of the way that its formatted - Bets are separate to wins, so if there is a win then it looks like this

Win
Bet
Win
Bet

As opposed to this:

Win
Win

Which I presume is what you're thinking

Think there are more important issues here anyway, if these logs are true!
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
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MM
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Think there are more important issues here anyway, if these logs are true!
What issues are they then?
Did the player have his winnings confiscated for bot play?

I have absolutely zero experience of how bots work or what they play like, but if that was a bot playing it was a very clever one! The hand rate seems quite slow and the bet amounts are jumping all over the place. I always assumed bots just flat bet X hands as quickly as posible...

:confused:
 

Westland Bowl

Tin Foil Hat Club Member
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CAG
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Location
America
Over 2000 blackjack hands and not ONE back to back win?? Sheeeet!:eek: Yet the guy still wins $6000 at the end of Kmiss zip file. That guy went up over $8000, down into negative, back up to a high of $9175, back down into negative, several more ups and downs, then a steady coast to $6000 over. This is definitely NOT a random game! He only won 34.8% of his hands versus normal blackjack of around 43%. :what: One thing I couldn't tell is whether there were any pushes in there.
 

kimss

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Location
Norway
Did the player have his winnings confiscated for bot play?
Yes indeed, and the meister agrees it seems. It doesn't look like bot play to me, unless it's a very adaptive one.

If you look at the gameplay it's pretty consistent, with a betting pattern like this:

1 unit lose
2 unit lose
4 unit lose
8 unit win

and start over again. Your bet unit would be from $10 - $100. 1967 hands he reaches his record high with $11.000 after a $1.000 win. From here he changes the tactic to a disastrous one! This to me looks like he is tired of wagering the bet style and just hopes for the best (read: no bot should do this). He starts flatbetting $500 and in the next 113 hands his down to $1.300.

After this he goes back to the already established working pattern, and builds up to $10.050 in 136. I might add some of the bets here are rather juicy, but looking at the previous 2000 hands it's pretty well established what the outcome would be - making the hands more than safe to get back. I would then think that after 6 hours of play he was tired and happy to reach the 10K mark and stopped.

To me this doesn't look like bot play more than a dedicated player. However it's very clear that the system responds by increasing the bet by serveing you a win (yes, increasing bet was smart of you!) - then you loose if you keep going (sucker!).


Shocked said:
...Bets are separate to wins, so if there is a win then it looks like this
I belive you are reading the stats wrong. They look like this (excerpt from the data I posted)

Code:
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11-12-2008 06:30 3050 / 2550
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 1,000.00 11-12-2008 06:30 2050 / 3050
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11-12-2008 06:30 2550 / 2050
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11-12-2008 06:29 3050 / 2550
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11-12-2008 06:29 3550 / 3050
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11-12-2008 06:29 4050 / 3550
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11-12-2008 06:29 4550 / 4050
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11-12-2008 06:29 5050 / 4550
It is clear to me that each line represents a seperate bet, and 2 wins in order should require two lines in consecutive order. The above data would state, read from bottom up: 6 bets on $500, all lost. Then one bet of $1000 win, then one bet of $500 lose.

You even have the balance in the end clearly stating each line is one bet.

What issues are they then?
Obviously there are clear patterns here, and they stand out quite clear as I mentioned above. Looking at the betting read from bottom of the file I attached and go upwards, this system should not work unless there is a pattern match from the RNG that serves you cards given a scenario. (Say, when you increase your bet we let you win, thats a nice way to honor the player for increasing the bet, in change we make you loose thereafter when/if you continue).

Also, this betting pattern for some reason makes 2 wins in a row totally abscent... This is quite impressive really! If indeed theese are the right stats it only tells me that this:

The system is buildt to make big gamblers loose! To hook you that means you must be rewarded when increasing the bet. Usually you will stick on a higher wager if you win, and this is where you usually lose all again.

This player didn't do that, and therefore he kept building. That is - he did do that, and when he kept going on high wager he lost damn fast! When going back to a system which the computer most likely will detect as a player increasing the bet the win comes, however the system is messed up since the player doesnt keep going on that wager - hence never 2 wins in sequence since the payout is messed up.

Anywho, I would love to read some card experts observation on this gameresult and the result it produced compared to what one would normally expect from such play.
 

kimss

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Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
One thing I couldn't tell is whether there were any pushes in there.
This is true. We cannot see if the user willingly busts either. I would only assume that with theese stakes you are playing optimal play and have memorized perfect play.

I cannot find any pushes at all in the list while scanning with my eyes, neither BJs either. I could write a quick PHP script to analyze the data better, this way we could quickly spot any BJs or pushes if exists in data.

Then again, quite possible this play results in no pushes and no BJs at all. I know from normal gameplay that if you start getting those BJ (or dealer for that matter) they usually come in clusters. Maby this betting style is abscent from BJs? You never know, it's incredible data.

It's easy to validate the data really, just check with the user from the german forum if this infact is the casino support personel, since the data was copied from he/her post.
 

hzock2

banned user: fraudulent PAB claims
PABnononaccred
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As far as I can judge this data was posted by casino club personnel. The accused player wrote an EMail to Casino Club (and posted a copy in the thread) in which he allowed the support team to publish his game play history.

A user called "casinoclub" registered two days ago and posted:

[translated posting/ 1st posting on page 18]

For your acknowledgement:
Upon your written statement of agreement, we are going to publish an extract of the game play history of the Black Jack game session mentioned here. Casino Club thinks that is inhuman to play more than 6 hrs with only 3 breaks of 2 minutes each. The total game play has a length of more than 6 hrs. This case has also been investigated and concluded by Casino Meister.


However I wonder why they only posted about 90% of the game logs.

edit: btw I think that there actually have been blackjacks, but the log seems to present this quite strange.
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 37.5 11-12-2008 04:07 6965 / 7002.5
Blackjack BJ BET1 -37.5 11-12-2008 04:07 7002.5 / 6965
As far as I know, you can not bet 50 Cents, so I guess this is a 25$ bet with a BJ (37,5$ win)

And can someone with mod rights please change the topic of this thread to sth better fitting (i.e. Casino Club bot play accuse), so that you can basically see what it is all about.
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
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Location
Manchester UK
There are bets that win Twice or more consecutively
For example;

Blackjack BJ_WIN1 50 11-12-2008 01:37 4500 / 4550
Blackjack BJ BET1 -25 11-12-2008 01:37 4525 / 4500
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 25 11-12-2008 01:37 4500 / 4525
Blackjack BJ BET1 -25 11-12-2008 01:37 4525 / 4500
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 50 11-12-2008 01:36 4475 / 4525
Blackjack BJ BET1 -25 11-12-2008 01:36 4500 / 4475
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 50 11-12-2008 01:36 4450 / 4500
Blackjack BJ BET1 -25 11-12-2008 01:36 4475 / 4450
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 50 11-12-2008 01:35 4425 / 4475
Blackjack BJ BET1 -25 11-12-2008 01:35 4450 / 4425
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 250 11-12-2008 01:35 4200 / 4450
Blackjack BJ BET1 -100 11-12-2008 01:35 4300 / 4200
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 200 11-12-2008 01:34 4100 / 4300
Blackjack BJ BET1 -100 11-12-2008 01:34 4200 / 4100
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 200 11-12-2008 01:34 4000 / 4200
Blackjack BJ BET1 -100 11-12-2008 01:34 4100 / 4000

Shows 8 successive winning hands

However there are some serious questions that need to be answered.

1.What specific evidence in these logs relates to this being bot play?

(Does that mean any player could randomly bet a certain way and have their winnings confiscated?)

2. Does any evidence that proves bot play also prove algorithms are being used in the game to manipulate results?

Who is cheating here, the Casino, the player, or both?
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
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Location
Manchester UK
As far as I can judge this data was posted by casino club personnel. The accused player wrote an EMail to Casino Club (and posted a copy in the thread) in which he allowed the support team to publish his game play history.

A user called "casinoclub" registered two days ago and posted:

[translated posting/ 1st posting on page 18]

For your acknowledgement:
Upon your written statement of agreement, we are going to publish an extract of the game play history of the Black Jack game session mentioned here. Casino Club thinks that is inhuman to play more than 6 hrs with only 3 breaks of 2 minutes each. The total game play has a length of more than 6 hrs. This case has also been investigated and concluded by Casino Meister.


However I wonder why they only posted about 90% of the game logs.
May I ask your relationship with the original poster?

Casino Club thinks that is inhuman to play more than 6 hrs with only 3 breaks of 2 minutes each. The total game play has a length of more than 6 hrs

If this is true every gambler I know is a bot.
If that is the reason it is complete bullshit.

I will wait for Bryan to give some more info before making any conclusions.
 
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