[Resolved] Casino Club - robot or no bot?

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Casinomeister

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Am i missing something ?
I am having a bit of trouble working those logs out.. but it does indeed look like the player never won 2 hands in a row in over 2000 hands !

Now if that is true, then that is simply Ludicrous ... the odds of that happening ... are .... well ... Impossible !

WAYLANDER
This is what I'm finding odd - and this covers 14 solid hours of play. I believe some bots can be programmed to play loose. I'm looking at fourteen hours and no two winning hands in a row. How could this not be bot play if it's been programmed to lose every other hand?

I always assumed bots just flat bet X hands as quickly as posible...

:confused:
Even the rudimentary software programs allow you to slow it down. Here is an excerpt from the instructions BLACKJACK BOT

SPEED SETTING

The bot plays at medium speed by default. You can choose the menu item option:speed to set speed to Fast or Slow. Note that the bot always plays in the Slow mode at 888 casino and the speed does not change by much at casino.net, Casino Club and Paradise Casino, as trying to play at faster speeds at these casinos can cause the bot to not work correctly.


They even include "bot" etiquette :p

BOT ETIQUETTE

Don't run the bot for 48-72 straight hours. This simply looks suspicious. Run it overnight for 8-14 hours and then give it an 8-10 hour rest. Try to make it look like a human player, for obvious reasons.


...Anywho, I would love to read some card experts observation on this gameresult and the result it produced compared to what one would normally expect from such play.
I think this would be quite interesting. I'll run it by a couple of people.

...In short: gambling 14 hours straight online with only short bathroom type of breaks or other 2-3 minute type of breaks (time that microwave pizza takes to heat or you take a fast dump) is not exactly any inhuman achievement, especially when talking about simple game like blackjack, which doesn't require too much constant effort.

Conclusion: 14 hour playing time can't be used as a judging evidence, there has to be much more.
I'm still going through the stats, and I haven't found a break longer than one minute - if that.

That's right. He takes huge risks and almost loses it all - many times! The bots are used in completely opposite scenario: making very low-risk wagers to complete the wagering requirements. Did he even need to complete any wagering requirement?
Like I mentioned earlier, I beleive bots can be programmed to be as human as possible.


pinababy69 said:
Note to mod or Bryan....could we get the thread title changed to more appropriately reflect the content?
Done :D

I know a number of you feel that gambling for 14 hours straight without a break is doable - especially in a land based environment. Online? I don't buy it. Sorry, I just can't. If the guy was taking a break every couple of hours for a minute or two even to get up and stretch, it would show. There is a difference between sitting on your ass clicking a mouse every few seconds for fourteen hours - without stopping, and sitting at a black jack table in Vegas. Let's be real now.

I'm not convinced that this is not bot play, but I'll lift the player's ban so he can chime in if he wants to. I'd like to know how he was able to not win more than one hand in a row in fourteen hours.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
I've certainly played all night online. And since I smoke at my computer, it does not take me long to pee. I went to Atlantic City with a 70 year old woman who did not sleep for the three nights we were there, although she did take some time out from the baccarat tables to eat the comped food.

I'm no expert, but to deliberately lose every other hand does not seem like a winning strategy to me. And if you can "trick" the software by such behaviour, then the cards are not really random are they.
 

Shocked

Non-Gambler
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Location
Staffs UK
This is what I'm finding odd - and this covers 14 solid hours of play. I believe some bots can be programmed to play loose. I'm looking at fourteen hours and no two winning hands in a row. How could this not be bot play if it's been programmed to lose every other hand?

I'll gladly admit that I did 10 hours of casino-ing just the other night and you can even talk to one of your reps to confirm it! When things are going well and the adrenaline's running, you can go for a looooong time!

The issue with the 'no two winning hands' thing has been addressed by myself and several others - it's the way that the logs are formatted.. i.e. the bet is shown, then if there is a win (or push), then it is shown on the next line up, if there is no win then no result is shown. Paddy Power do the same with their logs.

Like I mentioned earlier, I beleive bots can be programmed to be as human as possible.

I am sure you could program a bot to do lots of strange things and play like a ridiculously tilty player, but what would be the point?

No one would buy it..or if it was a 'feature' then no one would use it. The idea that someone would spend hours programming a feature that clearly no one would use is, frankly, silly!

I've read the other forum and I feel for this player - IMO with the evidence given, it's 99.99% certain that he's been treated terribly by CC, whether that be through their lack of competence or just straight roguish behaviour. Being that they are one of the biggest online casinos around, I'd assume it's the former and they just didn't do their job properly when they did their 'security checks', but, even if they see the error they've made, then it's still worrying.


------- In addition

Actually, it's PP Games, but here's an example from their logs and me playing 3 hand BJ:

Games Returns: Electracade Three Hand BlackJack: Return on Game Bet ID 72828612 Internet 4.50 74.14
Games stake: Electracade Three Hand BlackJack: Game Bet ID 72828612 Internet -3.00 69.64
Games Returns: Electracade Three Hand BlackJack: Return on Game Bet ID 72828547 Internet 4.00 72.64
Games stake: Electracade Three Hand BlackJack: Game Bet ID 72828547 Internet -3.00 68.64
Games Returns: Electracade Three Hand BlackJack: Return on Game Bet ID 72828500 Internet 2.50 71.64
Games stake: Electracade Three Hand BlackJack: Game Bet ID 72828500 Internet -3.00 69.14
Games stake: Electracade Three Hand BlackJack: Game Bet ID 72828467 Internet -3.00 72.14
Games Returns: Electracade Three Hand BlackJack: Return on Game Bet ID 72828415 Internet 3.00 75.14

It's the same formatting style as Casino Club, but because there is more explanation on each line, you can see that I won (or more precisely, didn't lose outright) three times in a row..
 
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Jufo

Three-toed sloth
Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Location
Finland
This is what I'm finding odd - and this covers 14 solid hours of play. I believe some bots can be programmed to play loose. I'm looking at fourteen hours and no two winning hands in a row. How could this not be bot play if it's been programmed to lose every other hand?

I believe this was just a confusion caused by the way the hand history was formatted. See the second table in kimss's post #24 which shows the bets in correct order and there are many two and more wins in a row.
 

Shocked

Non-Gambler
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Location
Staffs UK
I believe this was just a confusion caused by the way the hand history was formatted. See the second table in kimss's post #24 which shows the bets in correct order and there are many two and more wins in a row.

The (mis)reading of the logs has actually been corrected on post 13, 19, 22, 24 and 26. It's a shame that people are more interested in the idea that there is a flaw or strategy that has been used rather than reading the thread and asking why someone who (with all the evidence) has just 'got lucky' and is being denied 10,000 euros.
 

Zodiac

Senior Member
webmeister
PABaccred
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Location
Europe
CM said:
I'm still going through the stats, and I haven't found a break longer than one minute - if that.

It gives a break Bryan but CC have not found it and only placed a part of the protocol but the player found the break what he said always again.

Yesterday he got the complete protocol from CC and now you can see at this part that was indeed a break.

Blackjack
BJ_WIN1
10
11.12.2008 00:57
4150 / 4160
Blackjack
BJ BET1
-5
11.12.2008 00:57
4155 / 4150
Blackjack
BJ_WIN1
10
11.12.2008 00:56
4145 / 4155
Blackjack
BJ BET1
-5
11.12.2008 00:56
4150 / 4145
Blackjack
BJ_WIN1
250
11.12.2008 00:34
3900 / 4150
Blackjack
BJ BET1
-100
11.12.2008 00:34
4000 / 3900
Blackjack
BJ_WIN1
400
11.12.2008 00:34
3600 / 4000
Blackjack
BJ BET1
-200
11.12.2008 00:34
3800 / 3600
Blackjack
BJ_WIN1
200
11.12.2008 00:33
3600 / 3800
Blackjack
BJ BET1
-100
11.12.2008 00:33
3700 / 3600
Blackjack
BJ_WIN1
200
11.12.2008 00:33
3500 / 3700
Blackjack
BJ BET1
-100
11.12.2008 00:33
3600 / 3500
Blackjack
BJ_WIN1
200
11.12.2008 00:33
3400 / 3600

and one must consider also a time difference from germany to Israel or Danmark, because CC said that some wins obtains after 24:00 pm but one hour time difference it was 23:00 pm

the completly protocoll you will find at roulette forum from page 20 to page 21


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i see that his name is no longer red, so i can say to him that he maybe can post here again and do all by himself ?
 

Casinomeister

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...i see that his name is no longer red, so i can say to him that he maybe can post here again and do all by himself ?
You're correct, he is no longer banned.
 

Kodi

Banned User - Multiple accounts fraudster
Joined
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Location
EU
1) Do You think that its fair to void someone winnings because he make something wrong in the past?
2) Why CC wait until someone hit some big winnings to show what they find?
3) Why CC void winnings (6h session) that for sure ware made by human not bot?

I think you missed my questions :rolleyes:
 

Casinomeister

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I think you missed my questions :rolleyes:
No I didn't - I've just got a number of things on my plate at the moment :D

I can not belive casinmeister takes the side of cc.

The guy did not get a bonus! why would he use a bot????
I'm not sure what casinmeister thinks, but for me - as I stated above - I am not convinced yet that a bot was not used.

I'm not finished yet. More later.
 

DiamondGeezer

Dormant account
PABaccred
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred2
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NOT Pennsylvania!!!
Just to jump in here real quick-like before I hit the sack. I have the log file that covers 14 hours - not just six hours - of the same game play (virtually no breaks). You'll have to agree that is a phenomenal amount of time. 14 hours - no breaks. The guy's eyeballs would be falling out, he'd have thrombosis of the legs and a pee bucket beside his desk. :p

But thanks to kimss and a few others that have pointed out a number of odd things, this is the strangest bot play I've ever seen. I'll be getting back to this in the morning.


I don't see how the 14 hours has any relevence. None of us but the player can know the environment that the game was played in. We know nothing about the player, the computer equipment or where exactly he was playing. 14 hours is not an inappropriate amount of time to be playing. Anything over 20 yes but 14 is perfectly possible.

Will spare you the grisly details but Poker players are well used to making unusual toilet arrangements. Often if you are multitabling it is too time consuming to miss hands and you risk getting kicked off the table for too long. I doubt the bathroom argument would wash with the poker community. And for all we know the player could be in a back garden or at least near one.

The real give away to bot play would be playing perfect strategy with no errors. Now that would be near impossible to do over 14 hours. It is the strategy that is important. If the player is not playing perfect strategy then it would make no difference if he was using a bot or not.

Typical bot play will involve thousand's of 1 hands and a player playing for a bonus and cashing out as soon as he hits target. I don't know the details of this player but it looks like he gave them a more than fair game based on his bet size.

If the player is not gaining some kind of obvious advantage by using a bot then you have to flip it around and ask yourself this - why are the casino making claims about bot play?

CC should be made to prove the player was playing perfect strategy without error for 14 hours. If the strategy was not perfect then what advantage has the player gained anyway?
 

Casinomeister

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1) Do You think that its fair to void someone winnings because he make something wrong in the past?
2) Why CC wait until someone hit some big winnings to show what they find?
3) Why CC void winnings (6h session) that for sure ware made by human not bot?

1) No. What does this have to do with the issue at hand?
2) Not sure what you are getting at.
3) That's the thing - you feel that it is done by a human, the casino feels it is not, I am not convinced it is not a bot.
 

Casinomeister

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DiamondGeezer said:
I don't see how the 14 hours has any relevence.
Well in my opinion, it has total relevance - especially in these circumstances. So we can agree to disagree on this one.
 

Przecinek

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Respect-land
I can not belive casinmeister takes the side of cc.

The guy did not get a bonus! why would he use a bot????


Say What? ? ? ? Hmm now this changes a lot in my perspective. In this case this is straight roughish behaviour, what's the point of using a bot that will tilt and make you loose all your money. It's obvious what's going on, Casino Club thinks they have found a loophole allowing them to ban players & strip them of their winnings while casino watchdogs sit & watch simply by accusing them without any evidence! :mad:

... I mean if this was a log of 14h flat betting (after asking customer support for some phat bonus) that yeah, point taken & guy gets banned, no questions asked. And I guess this is how it looked like when Casino Club started banning players. But now since they could see there's no backslash, gradually they have started playing more & more rouge! And now they will ban anyone that plays for more than 6 hours and has won more than one grand.

...I mean CM come on : if bots are made to act as stupid and irresponsible as humans, than how do you know if humans are not bots? This is getting a bit ridiculous. We need to set some rules here, otherwise everyone will became a potential bot in casino clubs eyes whether their strategy is tight or aggresive. I mean from what I have googled, this player also didn't stick to perfect strategy, I wouldn't mind seeing full logs since this should be a final nail in this whole argument (I don't really think someone would still say bots are programmed to make decisions that increase house edge?)

Too bad that like someone has said:

"Even if they see the error they've made, then it's still worrying."

...So in the end Casino Club will admit they've made mistake and return this guys winnings...well it won't make me any more happy I'm afraid...for one guy in this forum there's prolly 1000 other players out there.

Edit : Oh yeah and this 22 minute break just shows Casino Club is full of it. I just pity this guy, He doesn't even now fluent english so they treated him like a piece of garbage.
 

Zodiac

Senior Member
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1) 3) That's the thing - you feel that it is done by a human, the casino feels it is not, I am not convinced it is not a bot.


But Bryan, can you meanwhile agree that it gave a break or must review again?
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
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Location
Manchester UK
Well in my opinion, it has total relevance - especially in these circumstances. So we can agree to disagree on this one.

I don't believe we should agree to disagree on this because if Casinos are going to start withholding players winnings on the basis they think they played a bit too long then you don't need me to tell you that sanctioning such behaviour, when many genuine players are informing you that they play in the same exact manner, will go down quite badly.

I can give you recent logs (assuming the casino holds them) of my play and it will certainly involve sessions of over 10 hours with very short breaks (less than 2 mins) and no doubt many other members as stated can do the same.

If you endorse their decision based on playtime alone then it means that every genuine player like me is at risk of having our winnings withheld because we "played too long" and we know you wont raise a finger to help us.

Your argument that bots can be made to look human is not a good way to go.

The player can make the same argument in His defense surely?

I understand that you have not yet come to any firm conclusions and that is right because we need more evidence but I feel very strongly you should not just agree to disagree with this playtime argument and give it more consideration, especially if this is going to play a big part in the outcome of your final decision
 

Pinababy69

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I can give you recent logs (assuming the casino holds them) of my play and it will certainly involve sessions of over 10 hours with very short breaks (less than 2 mins) and no doubt many other members as stated can do the same.

I absolutely could as well Rusty. Not on Blackjack, and not at this particular casino....but the same thing. Like I've said, if you get on a roll and a real adrenaline rush kicks in...you don't even realize how much time has passed. And stopping to eat? I snack, and usually I've eaten dinner or whatever before I sit down to play. Bathroom breaks? I can go in under a minute. I wouldn't say a session like this is the norm....but it definitely happens and it is definitely within the realm of possibility. It is not in the least bit unbelievable.

I have been sitting at my computer right now for four hours solid, no coffee break, no bathroom break, no food. I haven't been playing, but working...and I can't believe that four hours has gone by. Were I playing, it would have gone a whole lot quicker I'm sure.
 

Przecinek

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Location
Respect-land
Sorry, it's me again :rolleyes: But the more I think about it the more I get upset. Like others I would Urge CM & Max to reconsider or seriously consider possible outcome of this PAB.

Already Plum Gaming casino (well know for numerous PAB's) has shown they've been paying close attention.
Before, they used to say in non-payment disputes that they are having "Technical problems" and only after PAB would they pay.

Now if you look at the latest Plum Gaming PAB they have explained that "withdrawal delays" are due to "Bot investigation" :eek2:
Why would they say that? Because they have also recently employed new security measures or is it because they hope that this time MAX won't even raise a finger as soon as word "BOT" appears. I'm afraid it's the latter.

Oh about this post :
"2) Why CC wait until someone hit some big winnings to show what they find?
CM reply : Not sure what you are getting at. "


I think I know what he's getting at. I remember that maybe one month ago I have also played from early morning till it got dark @ Casino Club. Well... I have lost more than 500 euro, even though I was playing mostly with 3$ stakes. 3$ Stakes and more than 6 hour play? Shouldn't I at least be informed that my play will be subject to investigation? Not really since I've lost more than half grand. I guess that's his point.

I'm not saying all players are saints, just please be more considerate instead of banning a player that has just had his 10 grand confiscated and telling him to "stop wasting our time".

We all remember "Lucky ace casino" when MAX initially told players that it's their own fault and discared all the PAB's ...and only after pressure from players action was taken. If nothing happens now, It's just a matter of time before more players come with same problem. You can obviously then close the whole PAB section down. Maybe that would be the best solution after all.... :(
 
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