[Resolved] Casino Club - robot or no bot?

[The Dude]

I think you missed my questions

No I didn't - I've just got a number of things on my plate at the moment

I can not belive casinmeister takes the side of cc.

The guy did not get a bonus! why would he use a bot????

I'm not sure what casinmeister thinks, but for me - as I stated above - I am not convinced yet that a bot was not used.

I'm not finished yet. More later.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Just to jump in here real quick-like before I hit the sack. I have the log file that covers 14 hours - not just six hours - of the same game play (virtually no breaks). You'll have to agree that is a phenomenal amount of time. 14 hours - no breaks. The guy's eyeballs would be falling out, he'd have thrombosis of the legs and a pee bucket beside his desk.

But thanks to kimss and a few others that have pointed out a number of odd things, this is the strangest bot play I've ever seen. I'll be getting back to this in the morning.

I don't see how the 14 hours has any relevence. None of us but the player can know the environment that the game was played in. We know nothing about the player, the computer equipment or where exactly he was playing. 14 hours is not an inappropriate amount of time to be playing. Anything over 20 yes but 14 is perfectly possible.

Will spare you the grisly details but Poker players are well used to making unusual toilet arrangements. Often if you are multitabling it is too time consuming to miss hands and you risk getting kicked off the table for too long. I doubt the bathroom argument would wash with the poker community. And for all we know the player could be in a back garden or at least near one.

The real give away to bot play would be playing perfect strategy with no errors. Now that would be near impossible to do over 14 hours. It is the strategy that is important. If the player is not playing perfect strategy then it would make no difference if he was using a bot or not.

Typical bot play will involve thousand's of 1 hands and a player playing for a bonus and cashing out as soon as he hits target. I don't know the details of this player but it looks like he gave them a more than fair game based on his bet size.

If the player is not gaining some kind of obvious advantage by using a bot then you have to flip it around and ask yourself this - why are the casino making claims about bot play?

CC should be made to prove the player was playing perfect strategy without error for 14 hours. If the strategy was not perfect then what advantage has the player gained anyway?

 

[The Dude]

1) Do You think that its fair to void someone winnings because he make something wrong in the past?
2) Why CC wait until someone hit some big winnings to show what they find?
3) Why CC void winnings (6h session) that for sure ware made by human not bot?

1) No. What does this have to do with the issue at hand?
2) Not sure what you are getting at.
3) That's the thing - you feel that it is done by a human, the casino feels it is not, I am not convinced it is not a bot.

 

[The Dude]

I don't see how the 14 hours has any relevence.

Well in my opinion, it has total relevance - especially in these circumstances. So we can agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Przecinek]

I can not belive casinmeister takes the side of cc.

The guy did not get a bonus! why would he use a bot????

Say What? ? ? ? Hmm now this changes a lot in my perspective. In this case this is straight roughish behaviour, what's the point of using a bot that will tilt and make you loose all your money. It's obvious what's going on, Casino Club thinks they have found a loophole allowing them to ban players & strip them of their winnings while casino watchdogs sit & watch simply by accusing them without any evidence!

... I mean if this was a log of 14h flat betting (after asking customer support for some phat bonus) that yeah, point taken & guy gets banned, no questions asked. And I guess this is how it looked like when Casino Club started banning players. But now since they could see there's no backslash, gradually they have started playing more & more rouge! And now they will ban anyone that plays for more than 6 hours and has won more than one grand.

...I mean CM come on : if bots are made to act as stupid and irresponsible as humans, than how do you know if humans are not bots? This is getting a bit ridiculous. We need to set some rules here, otherwise everyone will became a potential bot in casino clubs eyes whether their strategy is tight or aggresive. I mean from what I have googled, this player also didn't stick to perfect strategy, I wouldn't mind seeing full logs since this should be a final nail in this whole argument (I don't really think someone would still say bots are programmed to make decisions that increase house edge?)

Too bad that like someone has said:

"Even if they see the error they've made, then it's still worrying."

...So in the end Casino Club will admit they've made mistake and return this guys winnings...well it won't make me any more happy I'm afraid...for one guy in this forum there's prolly 1000 other players out there.

Edit : Oh yeah and this 22 minute break just shows Casino Club is full of it. I just pity this guy, He doesn't even now fluent english so they treated him like a piece of garbage.

 

[Zodiac]

1) 3) That's the thing - you feel that it is done by a human, the casino feels it is not, I am not convinced it is not a bot.

But Bryan, can you meanwhile agree that it gave a break or must review again?

 

[Rusty]

Well in my opinion, it has total relevance - especially in these circumstances. So we can agree to disagree on this one.

I don't believe we should agree to disagree on this because if Casinos are going to start withholding players winnings on the basis they think they played a bit too long then you don't need me to tell you that sanctioning such behaviour, when many genuine players are informing you that they play in the same exact manner, will go down quite badly.

I can give you recent logs (assuming the casino holds them) of my play and it will certainly involve sessions of over 10 hours with very short breaks (less than 2 mins) and no doubt many other members as stated can do the same.

If you endorse their decision based on playtime alone then it means that every genuine player like me is at risk of having our winnings withheld because we "played too long" and we know you wont raise a finger to help us.

Your argument that bots can be made to look human is not a good way to go.

The player can make the same argument in His defense surely?

I understand that you have not yet come to any firm conclusions and that is right because we need more evidence but I feel very strongly you should not just agree to disagree with this playtime argument and give it more consideration, especially if this is going to play a big part in the outcome of your final decision

 

[Pinababy69]

I can give you recent logs (assuming the casino holds them) of my play and it will certainly involve sessions of over 10 hours with very short breaks (less than 2 mins) and no doubt many other members as stated can do the same.

I absolutely could as well Rusty. Not on Blackjack, and not at this particular casino....but the same thing. Like I've said, if you get on a roll and a real adrenaline rush kicks in...you don't even realize how much time has passed. And stopping to eat? I snack, and usually I've eaten dinner or whatever before I sit down to play. Bathroom breaks? I can go in under a minute. I wouldn't say a session like this is the norm....but it definitely happens and it is definitely within the realm of possibility. It is not in the least bit unbelievable.

I have been sitting at my computer right now for four hours solid, no coffee break, no bathroom break, no food. I haven't been playing, but working...and I can't believe that four hours has gone by. Were I playing, it would have gone a whole lot quicker I'm sure.

 

[Przecinek]

Sorry, it's me again But the more I think about it the more I get upset. Like others I would Urge CM & Max to reconsider or seriously consider possible outcome of this PAB.

Already Plum Gaming casino (well know for numerous PAB's) has shown they've been paying close attention.
Before, they used to say in non-payment disputes that they are having "Technical problems" and only after PAB would they pay.

Now if you look at the latest Plum Gaming PAB they have explained that "withdrawal delays" are due to "Bot investigation"
Why would they say that? Because they have also recently employed new security measures or is it because they hope that this time MAX won't even raise a finger as soon as word "BOT" appears. I'm afraid it's the latter.

Oh about this post :
"2) Why CC wait until someone hit some big winnings to show what they find?
CM reply : Not sure what you are getting at. "


I think I know what he's getting at. I remember that maybe one month ago I have also played from early morning till it got dark @ Casino Club. Well... I have lost more than 500 euro, even though I was playing mostly with 3$ stakes. 3$ Stakes and more than 6 hour play? Shouldn't I at least be informed that my play will be subject to investigation? Not really since I've lost more than half grand. I guess that's his point.

I'm not saying all players are saints, just please be more considerate instead of banning a player that has just had his 10 grand confiscated and telling him to "stop wasting our time".

We all remember "Lucky ace casino" when MAX initially told players that it's their own fault and discared all the PAB's ...and only after pressure from players action was taken. If nothing happens now, It's just a matter of time before more players come with same problem. You can obviously then close the whole PAB section down. Maybe that would be the best solution after all....

 

[Jufo]

3) That's the thing - you feel that it is done by a human, the casino feels it is not, I am not convinced it is not a bot.

Shouldn't it be "Innocent Until Proven Otherwise" if the casino fails to provide sufficient evidence?

 

[Kodi]

Not sure what you are getting at.

My point is general - not related to this PaB. I know players who have been accused of useing bots by CC and treated extremly unprofesional! Here are some of my conlusions:

1) CC checks play logs only when they have to pay. They dont care until you hit, so then they can use bot excuse to take winnings! So they are GOOD BOTS and BAD BOTS. Those GOOD are loseing money to CC and are warmly welcome.

2) Players caught on useing bot shouldbe treaded according to thier T&C: winnings made by useing bot void and deposit returned. RIGHT? If not this is criminal activity and You shouldnt support that. I know that CC dont want give back players deposits useing bot excuse.

more to come soon...

 

[RobWin]

Now if you look at the latest Plum Gaming PAB they have explained that "withdrawal delays" are due to "Bot investigation"
Why would they say that? Because they have also recently employed new security measures or is it because they hope that this time MAX won't even raise a finger as soon as word "BOT" appears. I'm afraid it's the latter.(

Przecinek, I think you have grossly under estimated Max's efforts around here to try an assist players whom are in need of the PAB service. Max works continuously on these PAB's...hell he even invites them at times, just go and read in the "GoWild Thread" where he has invited players to PAB...Max is one hell of a major asset to this forum board and has been since he first came on here !!

What other casino forum board even offers this service ??

 

[vinylweatherman]

Is there even a bot available that can recreate the same "human like" playing patterns.

Maybe the player had written out a set of strategy rules, and was following them. This is "bot-like" play, and requires little decision making. However, there is nothing in the terms that say you cannot use notes, it's not an EXAM!!

To prove that it is even LIKELY a bot was used, someone should be tasked with producing the bot.

The length of play and breaks themselves are NOT against the rules, and it is not good enough simply to say that a bot is involved without investigating whether the technology has currently been able to come up with one good enough.
The casino initially did NOT ALLOW DEBATE, it was done & dusted. It was only the player's persistence that has us picking over the evidence, and seeing it is by no means certain.

Currently, this allows casinos to "cry bot" every time they get beaten by a player who has had long sessions with only short breaks. The much longer 15 minute break shown up seems to have been ignored by the casino, yet this is VERY SIGNIFICANT, since it sways the balance well into being a human, who has punctuated a long session with short breaks with a decent sized one. This is no different from what is expected of assembly line workers, who may well have a 12 hour shift, and only a couple of breaks throughout the day that are 15 minutes or more.

When I played Fruit Machines, I could play from dawn to dusk, with the breaks being walking from one location to another. I was NEVER slung out for being a bot

 

[aka23]

It's my understanding that the player did not not take a bonus and did not have a wagering requirement. If so, there is no reason for the player to have used a bot, as there are no longer EV+ games at CC (SD BJ was removed). Furthermore, skimming through the German discussion forum, heffernan certainly does not sound like a bot user. I suspect that the player was wrongly flagged for bot use, and that CC's bot detection methods are based on hours of play without break, rather than more accurate methods. From what I can see, both CasinoClub's confiscation of 8000 without solid evidence and heffernan's initial PIB results & forum banning are concerning. Please correct me, if I am missing something.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Well in my opinion, it has total relevance - especially in these circumstances. So we can agree to disagree on this one.

I am cool with your disagreement but just trying to give a different perspective.

I feel this guy is on trial and needs a good lawyer to come to his defence. Yes 14 hours is pretty unusual but why should that make him guilty? For all we know the guy could have been on a plane or a ferry. Or he could be disabled. I have a good friend who is a quadraplageic and does at times spend 12 hours on computer with no bathroom break. My point is that without knowing the full story all sorts of things could be construed.

A more humdrum explanation could be that the guy could have gone to the bathroom right at the start of a minute and then come back 1m 50 secs later and played a hand. That would be perfectly plausible.

14 hours is unusual but if you asked a bunch of players if they have spent mental times playing online then a whole bunch of hands would go up. Sometimes you can get into that zone and all you want to do is play and play and play. Unusual and a bit sad - yes. Reason to deny cashout - no.

Besides everything else I don't even think that bots can be programmed to change bet size so frequently. I may be wrong about this though as I have never used one.

But as any player would tell you a fluctuating bet size to the extent that the player showed looks far more like a gambler than an advantage player using a bot. The idea of a bot player putting in huge bets is frankly ridiculous. As I said before it is the strategy that is the main evidence.

 

[Przecinek]

Przecinek, I think you have grossly under estimated Max's efforts around here to try an assist players whom are in need of the PAB service. Max works continuously on these PAB's...hell he even invites them at times, just go and read in the "GoWild Thread" where he has invited players to PAB...Max is one hell of a major asset to this forum board and has been since he first came on here !!

What other casino forum board even offers this service ??

I think, you have misinterpreted my post. If anything I have emphasized his role as a very significant one. So significant that the way MAX operates is under scrutiny of many rogue or roughish casinos (like Plum casino). If they see that "bot excuse" might be used without significant evidence you can be damn sure they'll follow CC's example.

Asking "What other casino forum board even offers this service ??" suggests you have understood my post as an attack on PAB's (or maybe even Max personally?) That's not the case.

Well having said that, since I made another post: I know MAX is doing great job, I have also submitted one PAB maybe 8-9 months ago.
But as you can see all PAB's relating to 'BOT activity' have been discarded and forum members have been banned (reason 'Fraudlent PAB'). Meanwhile Roughish casinos are watching, this is what I referred to and I'm not sure why RobWin you've mixed it up with other casino topics & PAB's.

 

[RobWin]

Like others I would Urge CM & Max to reconsider or seriously consider possible outcome of this PAB.

Reconsider what ?? They are still trying to determine "What" to consider in the first place !

Now if you look at the latest Plum Gaming PAB they have explained that "withdrawal delays" are due to "Bot investigation"
Why would they say that? Because they have also recently employed new security measures or is it because they hope that this time MAX won't even raise a finger as soon as word "BOT" appears. I'm afraid it's the latter.

You are the one that has made a predetermined opinion on what Max's actions will be here in this case !!

We all remember "Lucky ace casino" when MAX initially told players that it's their own fault and discared all the PAB's ...and only after pressure from players action was taken. If nothing happens now, It's just a matter of time before more players come with same problem. You can obviously then close the whole PAB section down. Maybe that would be the best solution after all....

I don't remember it going down exactly like you state here !! And in your second statement in the direct quote above it sounds like you would be willing to put Max out of a job...you say "Maybe that would be the best solution after all" just to "close the whole PAB section down"

I think, you have misinterpreted my post. If anything I have emphasized his role as a very significant one. So significant that the way MAX operates is under scrutiny of many rogue or roughish casinos (like Plum casino). If they see that "bot excuse" might be used without significant evidence you can be damn sure they'll follow CC's example.

Under scrutiny by who ??

Asking "What other casino forum board even offers this service ??" suggests you have understood my post as an attack on PAB's (or maybe even Max personally?) That's not the case.

See above...

Well having said that, since I made another post: I know MAX is doing great job, I have also submitted one PAB maybe 8-9 months ago.
But as you can see all PAB's relating to 'BOT activity' have been discarded and forum members have been banned (reason 'Fraudlent PAB'). Meanwhile Roughish casinos are watching, this is what I referred to and I'm not sure why RobWin you've mixed it up with other casino topics & PAB's.

I don't see that Max has just simply discarded ALL PAB's regarding Bot Use !!

 

[heffernan]

hello,

i think i dont need to tell who i am. im sorry about my english or using translater.

first i have to say thanks @cm to unlock my account and give me the chance to explain. i also send my player history to bryan.
there i found enough breaks. in fourteen hours: eight times a 2 min; one time a 3 min; one time a 4 min; two times a 6 min; one time a 9 min; one time a 10 min; one time a 18 min; two times a 22 min. in all 110 min.
so the cc never really watched in my history. i also found my always telling break. this i also told the cc. but they never found it in their history. but i found it there. if they had remember the time zones, they would be able to find it (i always talk about in www.roulette-forum.de)

now i have finished reading all postings here. so i ask you to wait till tomorrow i will will anser and explain it. after working today more then ten hours and concentrate for this postings to understand, i also need a break. cause i have to work tomorrow too.

ps: in morning at 09.30 i talked to the support. they closed my file. and if i want, i can go by judge, they told me.

regrads
heffernan

 

[heffernan]

Kimss,

I respect your greater experience with all things gambling, but do you really think on this occasion, the bloke bet 62.5 euros? ;o)



I've checked a few pages and each time there is a win, the figure below it is a multiple. Paddy power have a similar system (I think it's PP) where they show the bet, then another line if it won.

KK,

The issue (for me) is whether this bloke got paid or not - I'm going to go and read the thread on the other forum, but how its been presented here is that he got extremely lucky and then Casino Club used a spurious 'bot play' argument to deny him his winnings. Perhaps someone can tell me if I am wrong, but bots are used to play lots of perfect games with small values so to get through wagering requirements. I can't imagine anyone buying a bot that played like this guy does..unless there is some flaw being taken advantage of in CC's software that has not been mentioned yet.

so think about Insurance against bj of the dealer.

regards

 

[Shocked]

hello,

i think i dont need to tell who i am. im sorry about my english or using translater.

first i have to say thanks @cm to unlock my account and give me the chance to explain. i also send my player history to bryan.
there i found enough breaks. in fourteen hours: eight times a 2 min; one time a 3 min; one time a 4 min; two times a 6 min; one time a 9 min; one time a 10 min; one time a 18 min; two times a 22 min. in all 110 min.
so the cc never really watched in my history. i also found my always telling break. this i also told the cc. but they never found it in their history. but i found it there. if they had remember the time zones, they would be able to find it (i always talk about in www.roulette-forum.de)

now i have finished reading all postings here. so i ask you to wait till tomorrow i will will anser and explain it. after working today more then ten hours and concentrate for this postings to understand, i also need a break. cause i have to work tomorrow too.

ps: in morning at 09.30 i talked to the support. they closed my file. and if i want, i can go by judge, they told me.

regrads
heffernan

Heffernan,

You won't get any argument from me about the validity of your claim, I've had a good look at those logs and read the posts on the German forums and I think the way Casino Club has behaved is disgraceful. Like I have said on this thread, either they've messed up and didn't really do their 'security checks' or they truely believe the 'bot' nonsense. Either way, it looks bad on them.

I hope you get your winnings.

 

[Przecinek]

RobWin : First of all, judging by the number of exclamation points you've used, I have to quote Hilary Clinton and advise you to "Chill out", you are diverting off topic just because I hava dared to be critical about what is going on right here.

Reconsider what ?? They are still trying to determine "What" to consider in the first place !

By Banning a player and telling him to stop wasting their time? Reconsider their initial stand.

You are the one that has made a predetermined opinion on what Max's actions will be here in this case !!

I could well say see above, I'm not the one that made predetermined opinion when heffernan got banned so please try to be objective here. Also when I said "or is it because they hope that this time MAX won't even raise a finger as soon as word "BOT" appears. "

I have simply pointed out hopes of rouge casinos and didn't state anything... again you are too angry or upset to see the whole picture.

I don't remember it going down exactly like you state here !! And in your second statement in the direct quote above it sounds like you would be willing to put Max out of a job...you say "Maybe that would be the best solution after all" just to "close the whole PAB section down"

Well again I'm not the one that suggested closing PAB's but Casinomeister in his first post. So please talk to CM if you're worried about Max. My reply was just a sad reference, as I don't think handling complains by threating to close PAB down is the best way to go. Regarding Lucky Ace I do remember how it went, but eventally the problem got solved after more and more players responded. But why wait till problem escalates when it can be sorted here & now. Unbanning heffernan is the first step forward. I still don't understand why you're accusing me of things I have not said. I have already told you this is not the case, and I know what I think. I you think you know me better you're welcome to continue on explaining to me what I have meant in my own posts In this case we can continue our conversation via PM's

To all the other people/lurkers reading this thread :

Take this post for example or do the search yourselfs:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/betfair-casino-bonus-problem-bogus-pab-bot-use.25198/

Up Till, now there was no point in entering a discussion, since as soon as casino handed over the "Bot" argument, everything was over. Those who say that PAB's regarding bot use have not been discarded at CM have not been paying attention. I'm speaking here for myself, but I decided to step up as I have always felt the same way as most people did on this forum. That bot users got what they deserved... but upon seeing these logs for the first time I can see that casinos don't have any software detection systems and make arbitrary decisions based on hours of play and how much a person has won. In the thread above player has found it ammusing that she was accused of bot play, that is until she got banned & pab got discarded. ( According to posts available : Proof : 7 hours of play in Betfair casino). Now I don't know what to think, but I'm sure of one thing : that not all players accused of but usage have indeed used them...

I'm not joking, There are many more & I bet 90% of banned users (reason: Fraudlent bot) have never even seen one in their lifes.

To CM: Yes I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but I do see the outcomes of PAB's available to public. I know Bots do exist, and I know people use them. But do we have to follow argument : "If there is at least one sinner in the village, it's good that we have burned it all!" ? As this topic shows it's actually possible to check if someone is a bot user or not. Checking if this person played with or without bonuses is one thing. Not everything is black & white.
But if the case is "closed" to speak and you won't change your mind, than I guess I will also remain silent for now.

 

[The Dude]

I think, you have misinterpreted my post. If anything I have emphasized his role as a very significant one. So significant that the way MAX operates is under scrutiny of many rogue or roughish casinos (like Plum casino). If they see that "bot excuse" might be used without significant evidence you can be damn sure they'll follow CC's example.

Asking "What other casino forum board even offers this service ??" suggests you have understood my post as an attack on PAB's (or maybe even Max personally?) That's not the case.

Well having said that, since I made another post: I know MAX is doing great job, I have also submitted one PAB maybe 8-9 months ago.
But as you can see all PAB's relating to 'BOT activity' have been discarded and forum members have been banned (reason 'Fraudlent PAB'). Meanwhile Roughish casinos are watching, this is what I referred to and I'm not sure why RobWin you've mixed it up with other casino topics & PAB's.

One thing is for sure Przecinek, is that you haven't got a clue to what goes on behind the scenes at Casinomeister - especially with the PABs - and especially for the ones that are never made public.

For one thing, bot usage is real - and to use a bot is fraudulent play. I think anyone with more than three brain cells engaged will agree on this.

I reactivated hefferman's account on the basis that this thread was dealing with his situation, and I thought it was only fair that he has a voice here. Fair is fair - and that's what I'm trying to do here; to be fair. I'm not reversing the PAB issue since I am not convinced a bot was not used. I've already explained why I feel this way, and there are a number of other "circumstances" that tip the scales to bot use than the other way around. I'm not willing to put all of my cards on the table - at least not now.

Admin note to all:

There are some members who feel that this board is their playground. They either share the same computer, email addresses, or other identifiers, etc., with one another and the moderators and I are privy to this - and we watch this closely. I will not let players with self-serving agendas poison this thread, or any thread on the board. I am giving some people the benefit of the doubt but please read the following carefully:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/

1.9 - Do not register an account fraudulently. Fraudulent accounts are defined as accounts created specifically to flame others (hiding behind a mask of anonymity), or accounts opened primarily to spam the board or to act as shills. Do not register more than one account in the forum. Additional accounts will be deemed as bogus, and you may find yourself out on the sidewalk lying on your back staring at the stars.

1.10 - Members who commit player fraud (chargebacks, fake accounts, etc.) will be banned from the forum.

1.11 - Please do not exploit this board to promote your own personal agenda. If the moderators (and members) feel that you are spamming the board with links or ad copy to your website, harassing members with agenda laden posts, or consistently ragging on a casino that did you wrong, etc., your account may be suspended.

I know that some members have more than one person in their household signing in to Casinomeister (husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend, whatever). That's fine by me, and sometimes I can figure this out on my own. But it would be appreciated if you'd let me know in advance so I don't peg the account as "bogus".

So instead of spending time researching the intricacies of robots, I'm spending time making sure that this thread remains legit.

/admin note

 

[Jufo]

I'm not reversing the PAB issue since I am not convinced a bot was not used.

I think it goes the other way around. You have to be absolutely certain that a bot was used and the burden of proof is with the casino, not the player. Simply a chance that a bot may have been used is not enough to condemn a player.

 

[The Dude]

I think it goes the other way around. You have to be absolutely certain that a bot was used and the burden of proof is with the casino, not the player. Simply a chance that a bot may have been used is not enough to condemn a player.

I guess you are haven't read my posts carefully enough. I am not convinced a bot was not used.

The burden of proof was on the casino, they produced the player's play activity (not the one you're privy to) and that's the one Max and I have taken into account.

I'm still looking into this. Max and I and others are discussing this and looking into the whole robot scene. We're also looking at past robot activity from other players of CC. It's pretty interesting

 

[Casino Club]

Hi,

1. History of player shows different playing pattern in the past, in terms of wagering amount, betting behavior and length of games. It appears that the player is able to play in two distinct patterns, "normal" and "abnormal".
a. Casino Club has decided to void part of the Players winnings and lock his account, an act clearly allowed by our T&C.
b. In the players gaming history never does the player:
i. Wager as much
ii. Play as many hands / per hour
iii. Play such long sessions
c. Of the 14 hr. long session, only that the last ~7 hrs. are the suspicious ones, where the player both refines his strategy and begins his [fraudulent] winning streak.

2. Casino Club repudiates BOT players and will not hesitate to close all accounts suspected of fraudulent behavior.

3. Legitimate players play and win at Casino Club daily, and we process tens of thousands of Euros in winnings every day, and may I add that we are pleased to do so.

As a final note i will add that this case was closed already days ago by Casinomeister themselves after thoroughly investigating the players' gaming session. Casino Club shares with Casinomeister all the relevant information regarding any complaint that a player places within this forum and we gladly receive any feedback from casinomeister.
In this case the case was closed without delay due to its clear fraudulent nature.

Casino Club

 

[Jufo]

Hi,
1. History of player shows different playing pattern in the past, in terms of wagering amount, betting behavior and length of games. It appears that the player is able to play in two distinct patterns, "normal" and "abnormal".
a. Casino Club has decided to void part of the Players winnings and lock his account, an act clearly allowed by our T&C.
b. In the players gaming history never does the player:
i. Wager as much
ii. Play as many hands / per hour
iii. Play such long sessions

Okay, so are you saying that if I deposit to your casino and play longer session than I have in the past, you might confiscate my winnings?

c. Of the 14 hr. long session, only that the last ~7 hrs. are the suspicious ones, where the player both refines his strategy and begins his [fraudulent] winning streak.

What is a fradulent winning streak? Are you saying that there exists a strategy to beat your games? As far as I know, your casino doesn't offer any games with a player edge.

2. Casino Club repudiates BOT players and will not hesitate to close all accounts suspected of fraudulent behavior.

You have the right to choose your customers but unless you can prove bot use with absolute certainty, you should pay winnings.

3. Legitimate players play and win at Casino Club daily, and we process tens of thousands of Euros in winnings every day, and may I add that we are pleased to do so.

I am sure that after this incident many worried legitimate players prefer to play elsewhere.

In this case the case was closed without delay due to its clear fraudulent nature.
Casino Club

Could you give us more details about this fraudulent nature because all the information that has been provided so far at this forum (play logs etc.) show no fraudulent activity at all.

 

[spearmaster]

I am about to upset the apple cart, my friends. If you do not agree with me, I am sorry, friend or not, right is right and wrong is wrong.

1. Bots do NOT give any advantage to the player, especially when there is no bonus involved. All bots do is minimize human error and play faster if you want them to. Casinos should WELCOME bot play without bonuses involved. I disagree with CM - use of a bot is *NOT* fraudulent unless explicitly banned in the terms and conditions of the casino in question *AND* not present in the casino software itself (in other words, autoplay must either not be present or else must be disabled when a bonus is in play).

2. It *is* possible to play long amounts of time with very few breaks - I did this in real life for 48 hours, with a pee break every 2 hours, then 13 hour nap, then another 30 hours, playing a table game in Vegas many years ago. I *disagree* with CM in that such behavior is not normal online, it is just as normal as sitting at a slot machine for hours before going to take a pee (Simmo and I proved this fact just last week in Macau).

3. I am NOT convinced that a bot was used in this situation.

4. I have not read the CasinoClub terms and conditions. I am not about to go digging for it because I'm too lazy. But suffice it to say - if a bot is banned in the T&C then that's the end of this story if they can conclusively prove bot usage. If a bot is NOT banned in the T&C then CasinoClub should pay up in full, and close the account if they should so choose, or else be ROGUED.

Very harsh words - but I am sick and tired of seeing this bullshit about bots beating up on casinos. If you don't want them, EXPLICITLY ban them. Otherwise, you pay the player, PERIOD.

 

[cyprean]

Hi,

1. History of player shows different playing pattern in the past, in terms of wagering amount, betting behavior and length of games. It appears that the player is able to play in two distinct patterns, "normal" and "abnormal".
a. Casino Club has decided to void part of the Players winnings and lock his account, an act clearly allowed by our T&C.
b. In the players gaming history never does the player:
i. Wager as much
ii. Play as many hands / per hour
iii. Play such long sessions
c. Of the 14 hr. long session, only that the last ~7 hrs. are the suspicious ones, where the player both refines his strategy and begins his [fraudulent] winning streak.

2. Casino Club repudiates BOT players and will not hesitate to close all accounts suspected of fraudulent behavior.

3. Legitimate players play and win at Casino Club daily, and we process tens of thousands of Euros in winnings every day, and may I add that we are pleased to do so.

As a final note i will add that this case was closed already days ago by Casinomeister themselves after thoroughly investigating the players' gaming session. Casino Club shares with Casinomeister all the relevant information regarding any complaint that a player places within this forum and we gladly receive any feedback from casinomeister.
In this case the case was closed without delay due to its clear fraudulent nature.

Casino Club

Erhm..

But you don't actually have any solid proof that this player was using a bot. Your logs are not worth that much as gamblers are able to play such amounts of time straight up.

Furthermore the player was playing a game where you have a defined house edge, thus you will always win in the end. If the player even didn't have a bonus, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Your house edge guarantees that you are going to take the players money in the end. Or are you trying to tell that your RNG is not working?

The whole issue looks as if it is very dangerous to play at Casino Club. If a player happens to win after a long session the winnings are in jeopardy. Your terms and conditions have been written so well that you can justify almost any action by you.

Casinomeister, please please please investigate this throughoutly because at the moment this looks like something that could only take place at rogueland. And we don't want a casino using a reputable software provider look like it belongs there.

 

[steinhaug]

Is there even a bot available that can recreate the same "human like" playing patterns.

That is a good question. A more interesting one is if anyone would buy such a bot? After all, it wasted 10.000 in 15 minutes! Luckily the player was 11.000+ ahead at this point and by a miracle survived! The "bot" did this more times. I for one would not buy this bot since it's far to scary - it would ruin me in a few sessions unless I had endless amounts of money for it's crazy ass strategies!

Playing 14 hours without a break is also no problem at all! People have been playing Counter Strike for 72 hours straight (some even died, LOL) - and thats for fun! Add some real money into the mix and the adrenaline you get from losing 10.000 in 15 minutes... Yes, stop a little and think about that! You dont need extra stimuli that's for sure.

I myself have been spinning (autoplay that is!) and watching 24 hours straight in MG! You don't even see my quick bathroom breaks since the game is constantly spinning all the time, however this is perfectly legal play. I have also beein playing Gears of War (Xbox 360) for 20 hours straight many times online, only broken by a turbo bathroom break (if not you die!).

Then again - I would be very interested in knowing a little more on what is considered "bot play", and why this tactic is so dangerous for a casino. And if bots have evolved superior AI as of late, then how can you infact detect them at all? And if you cannot detect them, does that give you the right to deny people anything just by claiming the unproovable?

If the casino payout is 95% which is what we the players live by as a thumb of rule for fair play, and since we know that 95% payout is equivilent of a much lower accual cashout (payout in real cash), I wonder what their cashout percentage is, given they keep most of their bigger payouts anyway due to "fraudulent play".

Why not enlighten some of us with more info on the bots, surely we could all Google and do it the hard way - however I would love to just get it served for my laziness! I would love to spend a little time on this! I do have an interest in it, after all, I am a programmer my self loving fuzzy logic and AI.

 

[maxd]

It's obvious what's going on, Casino Club thinks they have found a loophole allowing them to ban players & strip them of their winnings while casino watchdogs sit & watch simply by accusing them without any evidence!

... you have understood my post as an attack on PAB's (or maybe even Max personally?) That's not the case.

From what I can see Robwin has every reason to take your statements as an attack ... because they are, as quoted above.

Just to be sure you made your point you had to add this:

... they hope that this time MAX won't even raise a finger as soon as word "BOT" appears.

And this:

We all remember "Lucky ace casino" when MAX initially told players that it's their own fault and discared all the PAB's

Nice one! Whether you fess up to it or not you have been attacking us, and me, and for what purpose? Because you disagree with how things went in this specific case? When then, may I suggest you say something like "I disagree, and here's why" rather than getting out the knives and start taking pokes at us to see where we'll bleed.

By the time my first year anniversary at Casinomeister rolls around I'll have handled something like 250 PABs and recovered something like $350,000 for the players involved. That's roughly two PABs every three days or about $7000 per week. And in that time I've had one major cock-up that "we all remember" as you put it so nicely.

Well, you know, I'd rather be the guy that does his best, makes a mistake once in a while, makes amends as best he can and plugs on than one who would be out of a job when, as you suggested, we just close things down:

You can obviously then close the whole PAB section down. Maybe that would be the best solution after all....

I'm not sure what your real problem is here but I think it boils down to one of two things: either you're taking shots at us because you can, or you need a few anger management lessons. If it's the former then I think now would be a good time to piss off. If it's the latter, look into that and get back to us.

Or if, as I suspect, you've got words to say on this subject and when you try it just seems to come out all dark and hateful ... well, we're back to the anger management thing again aren't we?

As to your issue with Plum Gaming and how you seem to think they're getting a free pass because of their "investigations", etc. As CM said, you have no clue what really goes on with the PABs.

In that specific case we gave Plum time to do their thing, because that's respectful and giving them the benefit of the doubt. When things seemed to be dragging on they were put on short notice ... and fruit started falling out of the tree. The Plum cases are not all resolved yet but we're about half way there. And yes, I continue to keep the pressure on and we go forward step by step.

In general I think it would behoove folks to think just a minute before you assume that we're stupid enough to give anyone a "get out of jail" card simply because they drop the "bot" word. Come on, do you really think we're that stupid? How long would it be before the reputation that BB has worked ten years to build would be in the crapper if we did that? If it were me looking at this situation from the outside I'd think "hmmm, maybe not" to the free pass idea and look for a better explanation.

So again Przecinek, unless you've got something constructive to add you might be better off saying a lot less than you have been, because your track record so far is to be talking a lot of shit.

I'm sure you can do better, as we all strive to do, but effort is the thing. Rage and dissing and yabbering on about things you've never even bothered to ask about isn't doing it for you or us.

 

[LaHutti]

As long as this casino can't provide proof of anything in this players play, that I, and numerous players on this forum, couldn't do without a bot, this casino is clearly showing rogue behavior, regardless of what they "think" is abnormal play, to get out of paying.
Changing his betting patterns half way through his session, and playing for a relatively long time, to me is not proof of botplay....if anything it rather proves the opposite, namely human thinking, and analyzing how the software is playing, taking his balance all the way down several times in the process, and acting on it, in a very human way.
I love it when a player figures out, how a casino is playing (read NOT randomly, but with a very specific pattern, that this player found out...(or the peole who made the bot found out ?)), and the player turns out to be smarter than the casino....even in the case of botuse, this would be the case....someone found out how the casino plays, and made a bot that can beat it ? ... wow!! Maybe that wouldn't be possible, if the software played the way it's supposed to, with the houseedge it's supposed to have, huh ?
The way this casino acts on it, really just shows the players how bad it bites their asses when it happens, doesn't it ?

That said, I'll keep an open mind for the casino or CM to still provide proof of botplay, since there has been absolutely none so far, as I see it.
Untill such proof has been provided ....Baad casino...baad..

 

[The Dude]

1. Bots do NOT give any advantage to the player, especially when there is no bonus involved. All bots do is minimize human error and play faster if you want them to. Casinos should WELCOME bot play without bonuses involved. I disagree with CM - use of a bot is *NOT* fraudulent unless explicitly banned in the terms and conditions of the casino in question *AND* not present in the casino software itself (in other words, autoplay must either not be present or else must be disabled when a bonus is in play).

I don't think anyone is arguing whether bots are good or not - in fact I've stated repeatedly that those who use bots only lose their money faster. That's not the point. The point is whether it's been used or not, and the casino prohibits bot usage.

2. It *is* possible to play long amounts of time with very few breaks - I did this in real life for 48 hours, with a pee break every 2 hours, then 13 hour nap, then another 30 hours, playing a table game in Vegas many years ago. I *disagree* with CM in that such behavior is not normal online, it is just as normal as sitting at a slot machine for hours before going to take a pee (Simmo and I proved this fact just last week in Macau).

We can kick this around until the cows come home, but I feel how I feel.

4. I have not read the CasinoClub terms and conditions. I am not about to go digging for it because I'm too lazy. But suffice it to say - if a bot is banned in the T&C then that's the end of this story if they can conclusively prove bot usage. If a bot is NOT banned in the T&C then CasinoClub should pay up in full, and close the account if they should so choose, or else be ROGUED.

Clear as day:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

23. The Company reserves the right to immediately close the account of any User who uses unauthorized programs such as bots, or any other illegal software that gives the User unlawful advantages, and to void all winnings from those accounts. In addition, the withdrawal of any funds from those accounts will be prevented during any technical and legal investigation that is a result of a suspected violation of this rule.

 

[The Dude]

...Casinomeister, please please please investigate this throughoutly because at the moment this looks like something that could only take place at rogueland. And we don't want a casino using a reputable software provider look like it belongs there.

As you can probably understand that this a complex topic, we're hoping to compile further information on bot usage.

 

[uungy]

23. The Company reserves the right to immediately close the account of any User who uses unauthorized programs such as bots, or any other illegal software that gives the User unlawful advantages, and to void all winnings from those accounts. In addition, the withdrawal of any funds from those accounts will be prevented during any technical and legal investigation that is a result of a suspected violation of this rule.

I dont personally use bots or autoplay, as there is no fun in my personal opinion. Everyone has their own strategy.

Is having a lucky charm next to you considered " any other illegal software that gives the User unlawful advantages"? Whats their next excuse going to be?

This is outrages in! We all know that casinos take an extra income from mistakes, but on the other hand, bot playing quickens the play, therefore the casino is in the same position.

 

[spearmaster]

I don't think anyone is arguing whether bots are good or not - in fact I've stated repeatedly that those who use bots only lose their money faster. That's not the point. The point is whether it's been used or not, and the casino prohibits bot usage.

Just needed to state the case for the operator

We can kick this around until the cows come home, but I feel how I feel.

Fair enough - but as I said, people will sit at their slots (or their computers) until they can no longer put off that pee break - if you're one of those who thinks the slot is about to turn hot and you can't afford to miss the hot spell, you will know how I feel

Hell, I even play video games until their natural conclusion because I don't want to miss out on the action - it's just human nature. Sadly, a number of deaths in China has already proven how games can be addictive.

In any case, I cannot see how this type of timing can be used against the player in any way, shape or form.

Clear as day:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

23. The Company reserves the right to immediately close the account of any User who uses unauthorized programs such as bots, or any other illegal software that gives the User unlawful advantages, and to void all winnings from those accounts. In addition, the withdrawal of any funds from those accounts will be prevented during any technical and legal investigation that is a result of a suspected violation of this rule.

Fair enough. Now they are responsible for proving bot play - which as you can tell at the moment, looks a hell of a lot more human than it does like Vortran

 

[zuga]

Hi,

1. History of player shows different playing pattern in the past, in terms of wagering amount, betting behavior and length of games. It appears that the player is able to play in two distinct patterns, "normal" and "abnormal".
a. Casino Club has decided to void part of the Players winnings and lock his account, an act clearly allowed by our T&C.
b. In the players gaming history never does the player:
i. Wager as much
ii. Play as many hands / per hour
iii. Play such long sessions
c. Of the 14 hr. long session, only that the last ~7 hrs. are the suspicious ones, where the player both refines his strategy and begins his [fraudulent] winning streak.



Casino Club

And this proves what??

 

[The Dude]

Admin Note - pot shots

Just a quick reminder that if you want the Casino rep to continue participating in this thread, then treat him with the respect that all forum members should expect here. If you have logged in merely to lob pot shots at him, you've logged into the wrong forum

Thank you for your obedience.

 

[homerj]

if the casinos wanted to detect bots they could do it easily, it would take 1 coder from boss media less than a day to implement and could be rolled out across the boss media network as part of a standard update. this would be the correct way to identify bots and it's proven to work as all the poker operators do this.

proper evidence could then be presented. The detection method could be independently verified in the same way that the RNG's casinos use are verified.

casinomeister, the evidence presented is clearly nowhere near conclusive and this casino is now rogue, why can't you see this? i for one feel you have lost all credibility over this issue. if you are going to rake in affiliate cash from rogue casinos on the pretence they are legit' and tested then you are in my opinion rogue yourself.

 

[Westland Bowl]

Proving bot play by determining what is "normal" versus "abnormal" for a particular player is not logical. If I am losing money, I change tactics or how I play. I play differently (conservatively) when I'm building my bankroll and more aggressively after my bankroll grown enough to use it. I may not play the same way from session to session (i.e., if I get a low win session, I'm more aggressive the next session). I would never play 14 hours of blackjack but if after 7 hours of losing or mediocre blackjack play, I'd change strategy too. Just because the player started winning after changing strategy doesn't prove bot play. Just how does bot play increase winnings? Whenever I use the autoplay, my winnings don't automatically increase.

I thought that proving bot play involved investigating disturbances or hacking into the casino's software, looking for interfacing/interacting with an outside software that mimics the player. This may be determined through packet analysis or detection of changes to software provider files.

 

[The Dude]

...casinomeister, the evidence presented is clearly nowhere near conclusive and this casino is now rogue, why can't you see this? i for one feel you have lost all credibility over this issue. if you are going to rake in affiliate cash from rogue casinos on the pretence they are legit' and tested then you are in my opinion rogue yourself.

So, I guess I'm not allowed to base my opinion on the information I have at hand unless it falls in line with your "tunnel vision" viewpoint.

One more comment like this and this thread is locked.

 

[maxd]

I thought that proving bot play involved investigating disturbances or hacking into the casino's software ....

I may be missing something here but as far as I can tell you're talking about detecting hacked or reverse-engineered software.

While that may have been related in some specific cases to bot play the usual technique for bot detection is play pattern analysis. That said I'm no expert so knowledgeable folk are welcome to correct me on this.

 

[Pinababy69]

Bryan, is there any one thing that stands out to you, that makes you believe this was bot play? Is there a pattern you see? Or is it the 14 hrs? Casino Club mentioned that the player's betting pattern/strategy was much different from previous sessions. I'm assuming that you are privy to these logs as well for comparison purposes.

If I had to render a judgement solely on what has been presented in this thread, I cannot see any conclusive proof that the player used a bot. Is there more data or info that we are not privileged to, that strengthens CC's case?

And one final question...with no bonus being taken, what would be the purpose of using a bot at all? There were no WR to "grind out".

I know you haven't stated publicly as yet your final decision, but it seems that you are leaning towards ruling in favour of the casino. I would just like to know what precisely you are basing your decision on....if you can share that?

My gut is telling me that this guy is legit, and none of this is sitting right with me. But that is an outsider looking in.

 

[deucebag]

Hi,

1. History of player shows different playing pattern in the past, in terms of wagering amount, betting behavior and length of games. It appears that the player is able to play in two distinct patterns, "normal" and "abnormal".
a. Casino Club has decided to void part of the Players winnings and lock his account, an act clearly allowed by our T&C.
b. In the players gaming history never does the player:
i. Wager as much
ii. Play as many hands / per hour
iii. Play such long sessions

So we've established that the player did not play 14 hours straight, that he took a number of breaks. The sole basis for determining that he used a bot, is that his playing pattern was different from before, and got on a winning streak.

From my understanding, bots are primarily used by bonus whores who want to clear a wagering requirement at small bets (low risk), and want to save time by having a bot do the job. This player was not clearing any wagering requirement, and his bets were all over the spectrum, so that motivation is out.

So what is the motivation for this player to use a bot? Does Casino Club think their RNG is faulty, and can be somehow predicted or manipulated through the use of software?

 

[Westland Bowl]

I may be missing something here but as far as I can tell you're talking about detecting hacked or reverse-engineered software.

While that may have been related in some specific cases to bot play the usual technique for bot detection is play pattern analysis. That said I'm no expert so knowledgeable folk are welcome to correct me on this.

It's my opinion that if play pattern analysis was presented in a courtroom setting as proof of bot play, it would be treated the same as proof based on a lie-detector test....thrown out of court. At best, play pattern analysis can raise the suspicion of bot play (i.e., player suddenly plays perfect basic strategy after playing no strategy at all) which then the auditors look for evidence of outside interfacing of casino software. This would be the approach fraud investigators would take that would present a solid case.

 

[LaHutti]

So what is the motivation for this player to use a bot? Does Casino Club think their RNG is faulty, and can be somehow predicted or manipulated through the use of software?

I'm sure they would just LOVE to share that information on a public forum, if that was the case !

 

[maxd]

It's my opinion that if play pattern analysis was presented in a courtroom setting as proof of bot play, it would be treated the same as proof based on a lie-detector test....thrown out of court.

There is no such court and such speculation is not really relevant to the issue. We're talking about how it's done on a day-to-day basis in the real world. And in the real world play pattern analysis is used every day to detect bot and cheat system play.

That may not be to everyone's taste but it is reality.

Furthermore in most bot use cases there would be no tampering with the software, that's the whole point of bots! They're just playing the game as it is instead of the player playing. No tampering, hacking, etc involved.

 

[Jufo]

So what is the motivation for this player to use a bot? Does Casino Club think their RNG is faulty, and can be somehow predicted or manipulated through the use of software?

I am sure they are just amazed that somebody is able to WIN on a game where they expect everybody to lose. Winning 10 grand with 1000 bets is only 10 bet sizes ahead. Winning or losing 10 bet sizes is not very uncommon

 

[The Dude]

Bryan, is there any one thing that stands out to you, that makes you believe this was bot play? Is there a pattern you see? Or is it the 14 hrs? Casino Club mentioned that the player's betting pattern/strategy was much different from previous sessions. I'm assuming that you are privy to these logs as well for comparison purposes.

I'm still looking at this - and I'm taking a number of things into consideration. As I look into it more, perhaps it'll change my viewpoint or perhaps deepen it. That's my prerogative, isn't it?

And one final question...with no bonus being taken, what would be the purpose of using a bot at all? There were no WR to "grind out"...

Honestly, I have no idea why anyone would use a robot - bonus or no bonus. I would put them up there with Roulette Systems as a con scam. I've been checking out some of these "bot" websites, and they claim how easy it is to make a killing "bagging" bonuses...yeah right. Like the adage goes...a fool and his money are soon parted.

Motive? That's not the issue in this case. This casino has stated that they do not allow bot play - it's in their terms and conditions. A player has been investigated and it has been determined that bot play was used. His motives have no bearing in looking at the gameplay, because the reasons for using a bot are moot.

 

[Casino Club]

I am sure they are just amazed that somebody is able to WIN on a game where they expect everybody to lose. Winning 10 grand with 1000 bets is only 10 bet sizes ahead. Winning or losing 10 bet sizes is not very uncommon

Dear All,

Casino Club has absolutely no issue with players winning at our Casino, and as I have said previoussly, we pay out close to 100K/day in player winnings.
As a public company, we have no interest in negative pubblicity or in witholding player wins.

We are pleased when players choose Casino Club as their online venue and we infact celebrate thier winnings not only by executing immediate payouts (within 24 hrs, and one fo the fastest online), but also by rewarding our big winners with gifts and the like.

Our only issue is with fraudulent players and, in our eyes, this case is a clear example.
I understand that most of the participants of this thread disagree, and it is their (your) prerogative, however we are certain of our conclusion, which in this case is final.

 

[tofu23]

fair go

"fraudulent

adjective

Definition:

designed to deceive: not honest, true, or fair, and intended to deceive people"

Words such as 'fraud' and 'fraudulent' have been leveled at the OP. The words contain connotations of criminal activity. This is laughable.

And the OP stands accused of what? A mere breach of a online Casino's concocted T+Cs. Thankfully online casinos do not and can not legislate and enact a code of criminal law. It is highly inappropriate to label or describe the OP's (alleged) 'bot' play as in any way 'fraudulent'. He is owed an unqualified apology on that score alone from the offending parties.

Those that insist labeling such activity as 'fraudulent' may then want to consider the requisite burden of proof required in such circumstances. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt - innocent until proven guilty. Principles that have been lost in the flurry to prosecute and hang the OP out to dry.

Indeed, the unfolding evidence may well be pointing toward evidence of a criminal and 'fraudulent' intent - but it is certainly not pointing at the OP.

There seems to be some consensus that a standard commercial 'bj bot' can not and does not offer a player the opportunity to illicitly manipulate the game (or sw) - nor does it afford a player an unfair advantage. It may be compared to a casino 'shuffle machine' whereby the flow and efficiency of the game is enhanced rather than in any way tampered with.

Apart from 'Live' Casinos, the online casino game is dealt 100% using the services of a 'bot'. The banning of 'bots' from a player perspective seems to me to be inherently unfair, if not unlawful (at least with respect to a UK Gambling Authority perspective - hardly Malta LGA where Casino Club boasts regulation).

After all, is the player not attempting to minimise his losses and adopt a position of responsibility over his gambling (by playing his cards correctly)? Does the banning of 'bot' play dissuade 'responsible gambling', and as a natural consequence, is the online casino in contravention of it's legislated commitment to "Responsible Gambling"?

Whilst all of this maybe moot given the OP's 'no bot' stand, I think the wider player community sees thru the cynicism engaged by casinos that ban 'bot' play per se.

In Casino Club's case, where nothing but the flimsiest evidence of 'fraudulent' bot play is tendered, the legitimacy of 'bot' banning is coming into sharper focus. Big winners get the cash stolen, losers get sent a 'come back' bonus.

Banning 'bot' play is seen for what it is worth. Profit - at the expense of an otherwise legitimate, responsible gambling player.

Prohibit cynical 'bot banning' T+Cs and this controversy goes away. But the sad truth is that we will all be back here next week arguing the toss over nebulous patterns of 'bot play' all over again.

See you next week.