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Betfair Casino bonus problem - bogus PAB - bot use

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by Yblomm53, Jun 10, 2008.

    Jun 10, 2008
  1. Yblomm53

    Yblomm53 Banned User - bogus PAB - multiple forum accounts

    Occupation:
    Administrator
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Here's the story:

    On April 23rd I registered at Betfair Casino with a coupon code which entitled me to a 250GBP deposit bonus. I made a deposit of 246 and received a 246 GBP bonus. After clearing the wagering requirement I received a email from betfair support that I had 'abused' the promotion and the bonus had been taken away from my account. Since I have been playing with a lot of big bets (1 bet of 492, 1 bet of 984, and a lot of bets varying from 3 (the majority) till 100) I think it's ridiculous I am being treated here as a 'bonus abuser'.

    I contacted Casinomeister and Betfair representative RedArmy some weeks ago, even though he was helpful I still did not get a satisfying response from Betfair, they gave a bland statement saying I abused their bonus and that I wont get it back.. Betfair Casino sent me this e-mail about this decision:

    "Dear Yvonne,

    Please be advised that following an investigation into your activity in the Betfair Casino, we have concluded that your bets were carried out with the express purpose of abusing the bonus offered.
    This is in accordance to the bonus terms and conditions which stats that "Betfair also reserves the right not to pay any bonus to customers that it suspects to be abusing this promotion."
    Please be advised that you balance reflects your activity regarding your deposits and game play, minus the bonus amount.
    Kind Regards
    Games Verification Team"

    I was quite surprised and disappointed to find out that Betfair had taken away the bonus amount (246GBP) from my balance. Moreover I am quite offended that I was being accused of abusing this bonus. I have risked all my funds twice with 2 big bets and kept on playing with bets of 3, which is also quite risky when you have to play 7500 in total. At the end I kind of lost my patience as it was quite time consuming and ended with bets ranging between 20 and 100. I think therefore that the accusation is ridiculous and totally unfair.

    After talking to 'RedArmy' (from Betfair Marketing I believe) I decided to 'Pitch a Bitch' with maxd; after 2 weeks Betfair gave another statement, this time saying I used a 'bot' to clear my wagering :rolleyes: .

    I guess they think that when you deposit money it is not allowed to place bets of 3 pounds (which is the equivalent of 5 euros, which is the usual amount I bet here when I go to the casino) and if you do they tell you you use a 'bot'?! Rather ridiculous.

    Until this will be resolved properly I reccommend noone to register at Betfair Casino, they will treat you as they please and make up invalid arguments for taking away your bonus if you win anything
     
  2. Jun 10, 2008
  3. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Eh? Resolved properly - okay.

    Betfair has pretty much a stellar reputation. I'd be suprised if they did not do their due diligence when investigating your case. They claim you used a bot for seven hours. Bot play is pretty easy to detect. I don't believe they are treating you "as they please". They are treating you like a player who deliberately broke their terms and conditions.
     
  4. Jun 10, 2008
  5. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    If you believe you are 100% in the right - you didn't use a bot - I would suggest contacting the Malta authorities here:
    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    They are a little slow, but I'm sure they will look into this.

    And when they resolve this, please come back and tell us what the results were.

     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  6. Jun 10, 2008
  7. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    You havent made it clear whether you used a 'bot'. Actually, what was the amount that you tried to cash out? Do the terms disallow 'bot play'? If it's not disallowed then bonus abuse is too vague a term for the casino to use. Otherwise KK will be the king of bonus abusers which of course he isnt. Maybe Redarmy should come and make things clearer otherwise new players will be afraid to sign up and fall foul of the casino's bonus abuse terms.
     
  8. Jun 10, 2008
  9. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    She already PABd

    The casino's investigation detected "bot" play for seven hours.

    This breaches their terms and conditions:

     
  10. Jun 11, 2008
  11. Roar

    Roar Dormant account

    Occupation:
    SE
    Location:
    Philippines

    This is really disturbing news from a gaming company I regard as supreme and a standout amongst the driftwood on the usual online gaming fare.

    On this Forum alone (never mind anywhere else) there are multiple complaints that Betfair are unable to furnish play history. Their technology does not extend to the reproduction of a players hand history.

    In the wake of this technological break-down comes allegations of 'bot' play.

    It must be said from the outset there is not a speck of evidence that the player used a 'bot'. A company that can not reproduce play history on demand is unlikely to possess enabled technical sophistication to detect 'bot' play on a whim.

    But let's assume the player was using a 'bot' for arguments sake.

    A 'bot' can not alter the game. A 'bot' can not extend an advantage over any game that is not already inherent within the rules of the casino game. A 'bot' can not generically render an increase in the player's chance of winning ANY hand.

    Further, BetFair activley encourage and promote the use of 'Bot play' on their 'peer to peer' gaming interface and have made sophisticated tools to enable such 'bot' participation.

    You see it is okay in BetFair's eyes for one player to make use of a 'bot' to play against another player (as long as BetFair collect it's commission). BetFair will even give you the tools (API) to make it happen.

    But woe betide if a player who chances upon a little mechanical assistance to enhance his play at that dreadfully slow, cumbersome and frequently disconnecting Chartwell software that BetFair insist on using.

    Hypocrisy at it's finest.

    To crown it all disaffected players are invited to take their issues to none other than that paragon of licensing virtue the Malteese LGA. Oh brother!!
     
  12. Jun 11, 2008
  13. dynamitewoman

    dynamitewoman Dormant account

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    roswell,n.m
    Casino regs

    I dont involve myself in any serious way with casinos because they seem to have the same basic principles and ideology of the online bingo sites. MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY is the common theme among the gaming venues.
    When you sign up as a member, you must agree to their omnipotent powers or just not participate at all as an active member.
    So, in all reality, it does no good at all appealing to any third party faction, unless they hold some kind of negotiating powers or "ace" up the sleeve.
    Most of the " site approval emblems" by gaming commissions and monitoring groups are simply money making ventures that are symbiotic in nature...you give me money or promotion and I will say your site is very approved and fair.
    If they were any good at all as structured monitors and regulation minders, there would be absolutely NO doubt whether sites have houseplayers, bots or over the top house edged rules. If they had their eyes on, a players use of an auto device or bot should be detected when it is occurring...NOT when a withdrawal is requested..as with bingo sites common multiple account rule advantage.
    it is almost an open invitation for players to "get over" on a site. A dare, if you will.After all, sites get over on players on a daily and continuing basis as standard operating procedure.
     
  14. Jun 11, 2008
  15. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    I'm pretty sure that Chartwell does record gameplay.

    The bottom line is that the casino detected bot play, which is clearly forbidden in their terms and conditions. Every company has a right to protect itself from players who use bots, no matter the reason. If they don't want that play, and this is explicit in their terms and conditions, then don't use bots.

    I don't allow members to sign up using bots in this forum. This is one of the reasons that the sign-up process is moderated; each sign-up is reviewed. If I had the forum wide open for anyone to join, the numbers would be way out of whack. I delete 3-5 bogus sign-ups a day - all bots or potential spammers. It's my right to make this rule.

    Betfair (and every casino that I know) has the same rule. They don't want bot play. If they detect bot play - they'll close the account.

    If this player wants to protest this, the best course of action is to contact the casino's licensing jurisdiction. There is an official process available for solving these problems; it's up to players to utilize these agencies and make them earn their pay.
     
  16. Jun 11, 2008
  17. Jufo

    Jufo Three-toed sloth

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Finland
    If that's the case why have they failed to send me my play history that occured on 20th May 2008? After exchanging more than 10 e-mails with customer support, the only answer I got was that it is "too much effort" for them. It is a serious player security issue if the player is not able to review the results he has received. How can a casino that fails to provide such basic information be accredited here?
     
  18. Jun 11, 2008
  19. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Do you have a copy of that email? I'd like to see it. Thanks!
     
  20. Jun 11, 2008
  21. GaryWatson

    GaryWatson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Marketing Consultant
    Location:
    Europe
    As Roar said, Bot play will not affect the outcome of the gameplay.

    I can't see an issue with that other than a player setting a bot to fullfil playthrough requirements, either way, the playthrough should really be set in a way to ensure a player does not have a % advantage buy covering the playthrough only.

    Also, what is considered bot use, the auto play button?

    I can understand the banning of bot use in skill games but not casino games. I dont get it:confused:
     
  22. Jun 11, 2008
  23. Jufo

    Jufo Three-toed sloth

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Finland
    I PM'd you some of the e-mails I received.
     
  24. Jun 12, 2008
  25. Roar

    Roar Dormant account

    Occupation:
    SE
    Location:
    Philippines
    Firstly, the Forum sign-up process using a bot would be considered a SPAM issue and can be distinguished from the subject of an individual player seeking an enhanced online gaming experience.

    Secondly, every Casino does not prohibit the use of a Bot. Microgaming give you a bot to play with such is the true reality of the situation. A bot increases the speed at which games can be played. More games, more wagers, more turnover, more player losses, more player deposits, more casino profit yada yada yada.........

    The Casino did not detect bot play. The Casino claimed it detected bot play. Big difference. This is a Casino that can not furnish Play logs of game history. Why would you believe they could detect bot play?

    I agree the only practical recourse for a disaffected player is Maltese LGA however hopeless that particular situation might be (which is another lamentable online gaming story).

    It would be good to see these online gaming issues dealt with by regulatory authorities but for the moment they seem to be too busy collecting Licensing fees.

    /
     
  26. Jun 12, 2008
  27. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    There are 2 issues here, bonus abuse and wagering thru 'bot' play. The use of 'bot play' does not necessarily equate to bonus abuse but rather the games placed thru robot play should be declared null and void. In case Betfair insists that there was a robot involved, it should reinstate the balance (together with bonus) to where it was before 'bot play' was detected.
     
  28. Jun 12, 2008
  29. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Even though MGS incorporates a "bot" in their games (the auto play feature), they still forbid players from using their own robot programs:
    Bots are designed to defeat the system. They do what players can't do - play for an unlimited amount of time without a break. We can argue until the cows come home whether or not bots are an effective way to break the bank - that's not the issue here. (In my opinion, you have to be an idiot to use a bot since it only will make you lose your money faster - the house has the edge, right? :rolleyes:)

    The issue is that the casino has the right to forbid this play when detected. My example by the way concerning blocking bots and potential spammers from the forum was analogous to the rights of companies to forbid whatever activity they don't desire - not actual bots themselves.

    Then of course we have the issue of whether or not Chartwell casinos can effectively detect this sort of thing. I hope this thread can resolve this question.
     
  30. Jun 12, 2008
  31. Komodo

    Komodo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Internet related
    Location:
    Sweden
    I can tell you the issue here. A casino site migth offer a 100$ bonus with a wagering condition of 5000$ overall. For a 5000$ wager youre expected to lose about 25$ in BJ and a few other games,so you are expected to earn about 75$ on that bonus, probably a bit less, counting misclicks and non-optimal plays.
    And it migth take a month or so even with 5$ bets since its 1000 hands that has to be played, so the income its not that great, but at least you win something, have some fun , and dont have to lose money overall like most casino players do.

    However, with a bot its something else, because the whole wagering can be done without any work, with optimal play and within just a few min instead of a whole month!
     
  32. Jun 12, 2008
  33. zuga

    zuga Dormant account webmeister

    Occupation:
    Webmaster
    Location:
    Belgrade, Serbia
    It would take a couple of days at most by grinding $1 a hand...if playing $5 a hand youll meet WR in less then 12h ..depending on software speed...
     
  34. Jun 12, 2008
  35. Komodo

    Komodo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Internet related
    Location:
    Sweden
    yeh, rigth... I would like to see you play 5000 hands in just a couple of days:lolup::lolup::lolup::lolup:
    Also Im pretty certain no human bein on this planet can play BJ for 12 straigth hours with optimal strategy in every hand.
     
  36. Jun 12, 2008
  37. Roar

    Roar Dormant account

    Occupation:
    SE
    Location:
    Philippines
    No problems with the logic on the last point.

    But MG are not concerned with say BJ playing bots in any way shape or form. MG are concerned with a manipulation of the game/software so that it operates other than 'normally'. Besides, the only 'bots' I am familiar with are in no way designed or operated to either defeat or cheat the system.

    You can beat a game with a bonus - not a 'bot'. The 'bot' is innocent. Don't blame the 'bot'.

    BTW - where is Red Army?? I hope he hasn't changed his colors........to a shade of say...................yellowish.

    Only kidding big Red. Come on, we're waiting for you to get involved here.

    //
     
  38. Jun 12, 2008
  39. Komodo

    Komodo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Internet related
    Location:
    Sweden
    You beat the game with bot+bonus. Anything unclear?
    Just the bonus wont help, since you still have to do all the work.
    The bot is not innocent, since it does all the work and also employs optimal strategy which you probably dont.
     

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