Betfair Casino bonus problem - bogus PAB - bot use

Roar

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Location
Philippines
This is utter nonsense. Responsible gambling is about not losing more than you can afford to lose. It does not mean that you should not lose any money, or not play games in a losing manner

If Rupert Murdoch goes to a casino, and loses $100,000, that is not irresponsible for him because he is a billionaire.

By your clearly ridiculous argument, it's irresponsible to offer any other games to the player than blackjack, because they all have higher house edges, and that will make the player lose faster.

The only reason someone has a bot is because they don't want to gamble, they just want to profit from the bonus.


I agree 'Responsible Gambling' includes not spending more than you can lose.

However, no online Casino is a position to determine the means of each individual that walks thru the door let alone whether they are your friend Rupert Murdoch. That's where your 'Responsible Gambling' argument disintegrates.

'Responsible Gambling' has a wider and greater meaning than the narrow interpretation you are currently applying to online Casinos. If your definition is correct than no online Casino would have ANY enforceable obligation toward 'Responsible Gambling' as they can quite correctly claim that is simply impossible to determine if any individual is gaming beyond their means.

To suggest otherwise is simply preposterous.

Prohibiting the player from access to a superior method of playing his cards is draconian to say the very least. It is tantamount to the house meddling, tampering or distracting the customer whilst in the process of attempting to play his best cards. Besides, card counting, which leaves 'bot' play for dead, is neither illegal nor prohibited in most B+M casinos.

Next thing you know online Casinos will be banning players from consulting the Wizard of Odds BJ strategy cards. Good grief! And you'll back on here shrugging shoulders and lamenting, "Them's the Casino rules. Let the players eat cake."

.
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
You are dead wrong here.
They know perfectly well the exact EV for every promotion they send out.
There is ample evidence to the contrary. People in managerial positions in casinos have written rubbish like that betting small eliminates the house edge, or that even money bets in roulette are bonus abuse because the probability of the ball landing on 0 is so tiny. There is no evidence of sufficient mathematical expertise in casino management.
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
I agree 'Responsible Gambling' includes not spending more than you can lose.

However, no online Casino is a position to determine the means of each individual that walks thru the door let alone whether they are your friend Rupert Murdoch. That's where your 'Responsible Gambling' argument disintegrates.

'Responsible Gambling' has a wider and greater meaning than the narrow interpretation you are currently applying to online Casinos. If your definition is correct than no online Casino would have ANY enforceable obligation toward 'Responsible Gambling' as they can quite correctly claim that is simply impossible to determine if any individual is gaming beyond their means.

To suggest otherwise is simply preposterous.

Prohibiting the player from access to a superior method of playing his cards is draconian to say the very least. It is tantamount to the house meddling, tampering or distracting the customer whilst in the process of attempting to play his best cards. Besides, card counting, which leaves 'bot' play for dead, is neither illegal nor prohibited in most B+M casinos.

This argument is utterly specious, as I'm sure you are well aware. Computerised aids are ILLEGAL in B+M casinos. He's quite entitled to use the strategy card, but doing something which is contrary to the rules or law is just wrong. It's black and white. If you get caught, tough.

Have a look:

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)

Methods of Cheating
...
Using electronic aids
Illegally using a computer or similar device to aid in the employment of an otherwise legitimate strategy such as card counting.


Otherwise legitimate being the point.
 

GaryWatson

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Location
Europe
You are dead wrong here.
They know perfectly well the exact EV for every promotion they send out.
What they dont know is how many players who will participate.
What messes things up for them with these promotions is when 1500 bot players signs up and takes advantage of the generous offer.

I've been told to study my wording lately. I decided to take time out to understand the english written language.
 

sdaddy

Meister Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Arizona
First of all, I would like to hear again from the OP and get a clear, unambiguous answer to the question: Did you or did you not use a bot to complete the WR?

If the answer is "no," then I think the casino has a responsibility to show convincing evidence of their accusation. A player shouldn't be guilty until proven innocent...it should be the other way around.
 

GaryWatson

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Location
Europe
First of all, I would like to hear again from the OP and get a clear, unambiguous answer to the question: Did you or did you not use a bot to complete the WR?

If the answer is "no," then I think the casino has a responsibility to show convincing evidence of their accusation. A player shouldn't be guilty until proven innocent...it should be the other way around.

Back on track:thumbsup:
 

GaryWatson

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Location
Europe
You are dead wrong here.
They know perfectly well the exact EV for every promotion they send out.
What they dont know is how many players who will participate.
What messes things up for them with these promotions is when 1500 bot players signs up and takes advantage of the generous offer.

I was just thinking of the contradiction in term. When they know the exact EV, they will have done their research on how many players they need to get their EV. You said they dont.
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
First of all, I would like to hear again from the OP and get a clear, unambiguous answer to the question: Did you or did you not use a bot to complete the WR?

If the answer is "no," then I think the casino has a responsibility to show convincing evidence of their accusation. A player shouldn't be guilty until proven innocent...it should be the other way around.

The casino needs to show it to the player and maybe their regulator.

But before that, the player, who is seeking help here, needs to answer that question.

There is a betfair bot that I imagine is being used heavily on their site. The varying bets stated would suggest not, but seven hours of play is bizarre.

If we could see the playlogs it would be fairly easily to determine whether or not a bot has been used. I'd expect to see constant play for a long period of time (not necessarily the whole seven hours), with no strategy errors, without any 'comfort break' time.
 

Roar

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Location
Philippines
He's quite entitled to use the strategy card, but doing something which is contrary to the rules or law is just wrong.

The rules compel the Casino to behave and demonstrate a commitment to 'Responsible Gaming'. Period. The debate as to what exactly constitutes 'Responsible Gaming' in a online context is valid.

A 'bot' simply mimics a player consulting a BJ strategy card. It is not a magic wand that can touch cards and turn them into a BlackJack at will. A 'bot' can not sprinkle fairy dust across a blackjack table and cause the house to bust.

A 'bot' does not interfere with the normal operation of the game in any way, shape or form.

The prohibition on 'bot' play seeks to do just that.

If a player repeatedly deposits and loses large sums of money the Casino does not send him to Gamblers Anonymous - they send him a bonus.

>
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
The casino needs to show it to the player and maybe their regulator.

But before that, the player, who is seeking help here, needs to answer that question.

There is a betfair bot that I imagine is being used heavily on their site. The varying bets stated would suggest not, but seven hours of play is bizarre.

If we could see the playlogs it would be fairly easily to determine whether or not a bot has been used. I'd expect to see constant play for a long period of time (not necessarily the whole seven hours), with no strategy errors, without any 'comfort break' time.
It should be very easy to modify a bot so that it does not play at constant speed, that it takes breaks and that it does not make the same decisions in certain marginal cases, perhaps it could even make outright error occasionally.
 

Roar

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Location
Philippines
The rules compel the Casino to behave and demonstrate a commitment to 'Responsible Gaming'. Period. The debate as to what exactly constitutes 'Responsible Gaming' in a online context is valid.

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In September 2007 the Gambling Commission (UK) introduced and enforced regulations that oblige operators (ie Casinos) to observe and monitor a range of criteria with respect to 'Responsible Gambling' a list of which can be found at the link above.

Specifically, "Operators must ensure that the terms by which gambling is offered are not unfair."

To be sure, 'Responsible Gambling' is much more than ploppy Joe betting beyond his means.

Whether the prohibition of 'bots' is unfair would IMHO be determined and measured by a 'net effect' to a players bankroll.

In addition, again IMHO, the intent of such 'bot' prohibition by said Operator (Casino) would bear witness in determining fairness/unfairness to players.

Whether the player (we remember you OP) employed the services of a 'bot' or not is moot in terms of 'Responsible Gambling' regulated by the Gambling Commission (UK). BetFair Casino may not fall under the UK regulator but nonetheless even the Maltese LGA would be strongly influenced by such legislation.

>
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
Specifically, "Operators must ensure that the terms by which gambling is offered are not unfair."

To be sure, 'Responsible Gambling' is much more than ploppy Joe betting beyond his means.

Whether the prohibition of 'bots' is unfair would IMHO be determined and measured by a 'net effect' to a players bankroll.
I don't think it is more unfair than enforcing a dress code.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Just an FYI, I'm still waiting for Chartwell to get back to me on the gameplay/software issue. And I'm anticipating that RedArmy will be returning shortly as well.
 

sdaddy

Meister Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Arizona
Gotta say, I'm a little annoyed that the OP never responded to the direct question (repeatedly asked) of whether or not a bot was used.

Whatever problems I had with Betfair in providing evidence for its actions in this case, if the player involved is not going to stand up and rebut the allegations, then I can't get too worked up about what happened.
 

Yblomm53

Banned User - bogus PAB - multiple forum accounts
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Location
The Netherlands
Sorry for my late response, havent checked this thread for a while, thinking Betfair isn't going to resolve this anyway. No, I have not used a bot
 

RedArmy

Dormant account
Joined
May 8, 2007
Location
UK
Betfair Casino

Good day,

sorry i was away with a foot operation :mad:

i have now designated an email address to assist you with any queries on the forum

[email protected]

Our aim is to resolve your issues quickly and fairly

We are currently investigating the complaints and i would ask you to go through forum Player Grievance Manager - Max

with kind regards,

RedArmy
 
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