- Joined
- May 22, 2012
Wasn't Tunzamunni by any chance?
Random my ****
- Thread starter snorky510238
- Start date
Wondering what RTP is? Find out here at Casinomeister
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
Ha! That bloody thing.... No it wasn't that, Tunzamunni had a fixed coin size of 5p, and to have a shot at the progressive you had to play five coins, so it was basically 25p per spin at the most.
I've still got a video of it in one of my archives
Ahhh, when you could configure the Viper Client to do 9999 spins on the autoplayer and leave it going overnight
The single liner I'm talking about I can't remember specifically, MG had loads of them, some of which were clones, but it would have been something like this.
Mrs Chopley was out with friends and Chopley Jnr was in bed, I watched £1000 disappear over the course of an evening along with quite a lot of alcohol. And then had to knock myself out with benzos to take the edge off having just spunked a grand, and to give myself any chance of sleep.
And then I learned about matching your stake to your bankroll, and how RTP is reached over very large spin samples, and how some games are more volatile than others, and so on.....
By the time 2013 rolled around and I set about Arctic Adventure I was a lot more clued up, but Arctic still provided a good lesson in how the specifics of a game's maths model can deliver some pretty strange player experiences.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2018
- Location
- Uk
Part of my point @ChopleyIOM was, that I could have chosen any game and probably got the same outcome. You’d have to be deluded to think out of thousands of games to choose from, I got so unlucky, that I picked the only one capable of this kind of outcome.
And, how do you explain this away? In the first 5 years of playing Bonanza, at every Casino I asked or checked, my rtp was never once lower than 94%. Then in the next 2 years, any Casino at which I have played a decent amount of spins are all between 82 and 88%. How is that even remotely possible without underhandedness playing a massive part?
And, how do you explain this away? In the first 5 years of playing Bonanza, at every Casino I asked or checked, my rtp was never once lower than 94%. Then in the next 2 years, any Casino at which I have played a decent amount of spins are all between 82 and 88%. How is that even remotely possible without underhandedness playing a massive part?
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
I don't think that's the case snorky, and whilst I'd hate to encourage any actual gambling, I would say with a high degree of confidence that if, for example, you'd happened to pick Double Fancy 7s, you'd have been within 1-2% of T-RTP after your 10K spin sample, because the volatility profile of that game is as flat as a pancake, and it's still on the books at VS (not sure about MrVegas).
The thing I find slightly strange about this whole scenario though, is you're the one who's still depositing and playing at online casinos, whilst also trying to convince us all that they're borderline criminal operations, running dodgy games that don't make percentage, are compensated (against the terms of their licences and certification), and are generally being messed with on a constant basis to hoodwink the player out of his money.
On the other hand, I don't believe any of that, but I've still made the decision to stop playing online, and haven't played online for weeks now, simply off the back of nerfed RTPs, crap modern game design, the general faff of moving money in and out of online casinos and all the various hoops that have to be jumped through to do so - i.e. I don't think they're cheating us, but I've found enough about it all that's objectionable to decide to not bother.
It'd make a lot more sense to me if the roles were reversed!
It's a strange thing, is slotting. Players are told to trust the science, and when a game falls wildly short of anything resembling its theoretical RTP, no sample is ever large enough, not forgetting that players don't have Mary Poppins bags of infinite funds to find out!
Still not sure why RTP stats can't be ascertained from a few hundred thousand spins, but slap 'high-variance' and 'billions of spins' on it and suddenly developers have their ready-made Get Out Of Jail Free Card to wave at the player base, realizing that never is a long time indeed!
There's no excuse for hiding behind this cloak of immunity, as players had high-variance games in years prior without this level of masochism and developer deceit.....so to pass off player's improbably bad streaks as just bad luck or needing to spin more is not on, there has to be some form of accountability for their product (which we'll never see).
Thankfully then, I'm in the privileged position of having called slots rigged before, and thankfully, after. And though I hold out hope for slots to become viable again, I just pray that it's before my 85th birthday!
Still not sure why RTP stats can't be ascertained from a few hundred thousand spins, but slap 'high-variance' and 'billions of spins' on it and suddenly developers have their ready-made Get Out Of Jail Free Card to wave at the player base, realizing that never is a long time indeed!
There's no excuse for hiding behind this cloak of immunity, as players had high-variance games in years prior without this level of masochism and developer deceit.....so to pass off player's improbably bad streaks as just bad luck or needing to spin more is not on, there has to be some form of accountability for their product (which we'll never see).
Thankfully then, I'm in the privileged position of having called slots rigged before, and thankfully, after. And though I hold out hope for slots to become viable again, I just pray that it's before my 85th birthday!
- Joined
- May 10, 2014
- Location
- UK
It's such an easy cop-out... but sadly also very true.
I would love to see providers publish proper statistics on their gameplay, and a small number do publicly (in the game help). I don't buy the counterargument (discussed in other threads) that these would be "misleading" - if you understand then it's incredibly useful, if you don't then it's gobbledegook to you anyway.
The one stat that would help this debate - is how much RTP is being pumped in those bigger wins, say 500x+, 1000x+ and 2500x+. We know some providers are already pumping 5%+ into the top prize alone, so I wouldn't be surprised if some are 20% or even 30% at this point.
When so much RTP is going up top, these latest "innovations" are a very different beast - you're not playing for entertainment, you're not even playing for playtime... you're playing all-or-nothing.
And that's where the variance calculation would bite - because if you're looking at say 1 in 10000 to get a piece of that 20% big win RTP, you would need a substantial number of spins - as in 500k or more - to get a feel for the variance of that part of the curve.
So if we rewrite the 95% as 75%+20% - you'll quickly get a handle on the 75% part after a couple of thousand spins, but the 20% will be much more elusive.
I would love to see providers publish proper statistics on their gameplay, and a small number do publicly (in the game help). I don't buy the counterargument (discussed in other threads) that these would be "misleading" - if you understand then it's incredibly useful, if you don't then it's gobbledegook to you anyway.
The one stat that would help this debate - is how much RTP is being pumped in those bigger wins, say 500x+, 1000x+ and 2500x+. We know some providers are already pumping 5%+ into the top prize alone, so I wouldn't be surprised if some are 20% or even 30% at this point.
When so much RTP is going up top, these latest "innovations" are a very different beast - you're not playing for entertainment, you're not even playing for playtime... you're playing all-or-nothing.
And that's where the variance calculation would bite - because if you're looking at say 1 in 10000 to get a piece of that 20% big win RTP, you would need a substantial number of spins - as in 500k or more - to get a feel for the variance of that part of the curve.
So if we rewrite the 95% as 75%+20% - you'll quickly get a handle on the 75% part after a couple of thousand spins, but the 20% will be much more elusive.
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2019
- Location
- Essex
It's a strange thing, is slotting. Players are told to trust the science, and when a game falls wildly short of anything resembling its theoretical RTP, no sample is ever large enough, not forgetting that players don't have Mary Poppins bags of infinite funds to find out!
Still not sure why RTP stats can't be ascertained from a few hundred thousand spins, but slap 'high-variance' and 'billions of spins' on it and suddenly developers have their ready-made Get Out Of Jail Free Card to wave at the player base, realizing that never is a long time indeed!
There's no excuse for hiding behind this cloak of immunity, as players had high-variance games in years prior without this level of masochism and developer deceit.....so to pass off player's improbably bad streaks as just bad luck or needing to spin more is not on, there has to be some form of accountability for their product (which we'll never see).
Thankfully then, I'm in the privileged position of having called slots rigged before, and thankfully, after. And though I hold out hope for slots to become viable again, I just pray that it's before my 85th birthday!
There is no need to concern yourself with such complications.
The intricacies of slot design are too advanced for the average person to comprehend. You can rest assured that all is above board, and casinos have your best interest at heart.
What we feed you has been tested under rigorous circumstances. There is no need to share any more information. Just deposit, without question.
I am The Science
Anthony Fauci
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
There are multiple culprits we can point to in the intriguing case of 'Who Killed Online Slots?' - massively increasing volatility and impenetrable maths models would certainly be near the top of the list, especially as 'real reels' are basically now a thing of the past (even on reel based games), and obviously so on cluster based games and suchlike. Games such as Bonanza have reel strips so long as to be near meaningless, and can switch them out dynamically depending on what it's doing (or perhaps more tellingly, what it doesn't want to happen).
In the days of the MG Viper Client slots, you could literally extract the reel strips and work out the game maths, plus the paytables often gave a very good indication as to the volatility of the game you were playing. This was one of the reasons I stuck with 3Dice for so long, as they still had a decent number of these more 'traditional' style games on their books, but alas even they went down the cluster game route and I found myself feeling increasingly uninspired by their output. (I had high hopes for their most recent release Dreamweaver, which looks like a reel-based game, but then you actually play it and realise it's a cluster game. Sigh.)
I reviewed it in this thread - Introducing a brand new Slot at 3Dice -DREAMWEAVER! 100% Match up to $100! - Casinomeister Forum
I remember we discussed some of this stuff at great length when the whole Jammin' Jars controversy played out, and many of us noted here at CM, and myself in videos on my previous YT channel, that we'd reached a point of complete disconnect between what the player was seeing on screen, and what the backend server RNG was doing, to the point that you're not playing an online slot at all in the sense of what many of us would consider that to be.
Add in all the other stuff that's going on, nerfed RTPs, old (far better!) games constantly being retired (I know it's hard to believe now but NetEnt used to put out banger after banger!), general shittiness from both online casinos and the regulators, along with the increased friction in getting money in and out of online casinos, and of course the constant deluge of what are IMO low-effort games from a million different providers who are motivated to create games that take as much money as possible, as quickly as possible, in their brief 'window of opportunity', as opposed to trying to satisfy you in the longer term as both a player and customer - and well, it's certainly no mystery as to why I've decided to hang my online slotting hat up and do something else.
(Oh and bonus buys of course, which I think have corrupted game design on a fundamental and completely unfixable level for as long as they continue to exist. Plus, lest we forget NLC's action spins, which literally do away with the entire pretence of even making a fucking game at all, reducing the process down to the gambling equivalent of injecting heroin straight into the veins.)
I mean, on a broader sort of level, I actually agree with snorky - i.e. it's all gone to shit and there's no point playing anymore, we just seem to have a difference of opinion on the specifics of exactly what's happened
(And he, for some reason, is still actually playing the bloody things.....)
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- Joined
- Jan 12, 2018
- Location
- Uk
How can I take a man seriously, when he quits online gambling because of nerfed rtp’s but plays pub slots. Still trying to get my head around that one.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
I go to the pub once every six weeks or so, and generally speaking I'll try £20-£60 on £1 spins just for a quick punt, and leave it at that. Sometimes I'll get deeper in than that, sometimes I won't bother at all. Either way it's a relatively rare thing for me to do, and also it's done as a sort of social activity as my chums will assist with their 'lucky presses'
i.e. A long way removed from the solitary activity of grinding away for hours at low stakes on online slots.The other point, of course, is that to play a machine in the pub, you just put money into it, and if you win, you get money out of it, I don't have to show the landlord ID and spend weeks faffing about with SOW should I happen to get lucky
Remember, nerfed RTPs were just one factor in a list of reasons why I decided to call it a day with online slots (which are literally all detailed in my previous post), I've not sworn off all forms of gambling in the entire world forever - because I still like to try my luck with a bit of a gamble from time to time.
- Joined
- May 22, 2012
Well, it costs a fair bit to make a game and it's volume over quantity with most providers. To be fair, Gnatent did release many new mechanics with only a small proportion being 'reglasses' as did Quickspin. Microgaming did rework many games like TSII into IR and TFRoL etc. but did enough to convince you they weren't simply clones. Pragmatic have released the same 15 games 20 times each to make their catalogue up in the main, with IGT collapsing into irrelevance as have WMS under the Shite & Blunder banner. Relax Gaming use smaller studios and have a decent range but again their portfolio relies on the ultra HV Money Train mechanics, about 8 or 9 of them so far. BTG copy every 'new' game at least once as we saw with Bonanza/Chilli and numerous variations of the their 4096-way games being re-released with slight tweaks.
Yggdrasil used to be OK although they did little that was original by the time they came to the fore and now rely heavily on numerous partner studios to rehash games. Elk seem to release a 'new' version of Shitetropolis and/or a Toro game every quarter as do Thunderkick with their Beat the Bishop editions. Don't even fucking mention sodding fishing slots.
Novomatic died online years ago as did Merkur and Blueprint produce mainly MW games or yet another version of their 20-line King Kong cash-style multi-feature games like Ted, Thundertwats and Austin Powers etc.
Once a developer is established and has sufficent turnover they have little incentive to make more totally new games as they rest on their cash stream laurels and if the worst comes to the worst they can always make a bespoke version of newer successful mechanics invented by others (as they cannot be copyrighted it seems unlike themes). This is why we get for example BTG making their Golden Snatch MW version of the fishing collector mechanic.
So this along with nerfed RTPs in most incidences has given a rather generic and boring look to most new games with little reliance on the average player for feedback and a lot on certain streamers with demo accounts and their sucker fans. But if you produce enough of them to increase your developer portfolio and have them sitting in casino offerings, the value of your company and takeover price seems to rise exponentially.
As for £500 multi-game terminals at 90/92% I wouldn't empty my bladder into the note mechanisms of one let alone put cash in.
Yggdrasil used to be OK although they did little that was original by the time they came to the fore and now rely heavily on numerous partner studios to rehash games. Elk seem to release a 'new' version of Shitetropolis and/or a Toro game every quarter as do Thunderkick with their Beat the Bishop editions. Don't even fucking mention sodding fishing slots.
Novomatic died online years ago as did Merkur and Blueprint produce mainly MW games or yet another version of their 20-line King Kong cash-style multi-feature games like Ted, Thundertwats and Austin Powers etc.
Once a developer is established and has sufficent turnover they have little incentive to make more totally new games as they rest on their cash stream laurels and if the worst comes to the worst they can always make a bespoke version of newer successful mechanics invented by others (as they cannot be copyrighted it seems unlike themes). This is why we get for example BTG making their Golden Snatch MW version of the fishing collector mechanic.
So this along with nerfed RTPs in most incidences has given a rather generic and boring look to most new games with little reliance on the average player for feedback and a lot on certain streamers with demo accounts and their sucker fans. But if you produce enough of them to increase your developer portfolio and have them sitting in casino offerings, the value of your company and takeover price seems to rise exponentially.
As for £500 multi-game terminals at 90/92% I wouldn't empty my bladder into the note mechanisms of one let alone put cash in.
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- Joined
- May 19, 2013
- Location
- A Ham Sandwich Wrapper
Couldnt agree more.
Every week there was a cool new game with quality and effort put in to it.
Those fond times however as you know, are long gone now Mr Choppers....
Instead now they couldnt release a good game to save there lifes.
Lets be Honest!
And i still check there new releases year after year just to see if they can produce anything worth playing. But sadly no joy every time.
I guess Starburst extreme and twin spin extreme can pay. At least they did when i played them,
But yeah all there other release now are super duper low variance, time wasting, patience wasting, crap games.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2021
Most casino’s nowadays are just there to suck as much money from a player as they can, with boring game themes that don’t even entertain any more…Casinos are the biggest manipulators of all time.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
They're alright for what they are, as a bit of social fun they can be entertaining. I always go to the pub with friends so I'm with others when I play, and (as per the videos on my channel) it's generally a joint endeavour with chums. That said, you do see people lumping away at them by themselves, which on 90-94% payouts is going to hurt once you start to get significant number of spins played.
Back when there were still compensated machines to be found in the pubs, I'd go out to do my 'rounds' as a money-making exercise, because compensated machines were always so badly coded and fuckable, but of course there's no such concept with a random game
(I've never gone out to play the randoms, and during the transition phase from compensated to random machines, I'd avoid the pubs that had only randoms in them.)I just see the randoms in the pub as a fun way to have a bit of a punt, I take an amount of money out with me that I'm happy to spend, and if it goes, it goes.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2014
- Location
- Northern Ireland
This happens to me every time on L'il Devil.
Started at a balance of £40 with 15 hearts to get. Finally unlocked heartstopper free spins and coincidentally won almost exactly the amount I just spent "chasing" the enhanced bonus. I'm 16 pence in profit.
This happens every time I get those free spins; I win whatever I just spent from my last deposit.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2013
- Location
- Kent
those notey mechanismisms constantly swallow money for no credit returns. Although I never got ma shlong out over such an argument, its ceartinly been considered before.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
The worst notey mechanisms of recent years were those used by Betcom (also G-Squared and some others), they were absolutely notorious for erroring on note payouts, and then 'losing' £10 of the balance every time the machine was turned off and on. This meant that by the time the engineer got to the machine, it could have lost £50 or more of the player's balance, depending on how many times it'd been turned off and on.
It became commonplace for players to film themselves collecting the bank, so that they had evidence of the balance before the machine decided to steal some of it, should it chuck an error.
Stories abound of engineers helping themselves to the 'lost' funds when they got to the machine to fix the blockage in the mech and restore the machine to active duty.
Bastards like this one:
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2013
- Location
- Kent
Yeah i know the one there Choppler, lol. I reckon I'm owed not far from 1k due to the cheap shit they fitted them with.
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2021
- Location
- Over here
So don’t leave us hanging! What are you going to spend the 16p on?
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
Ouch! The AWPs here never had note payouts on them so we were spared the worst of it, although I do remember once when I was over in the UK having a Moo York Moo York error on payout and then having 'lost' £40 for the engineer's visit, that was a ballache too as I had to pursue the claim once I was back on the IOM. I think I've still got the emails I sent back and forth with Bob Rudd, had to ring them up in the end
It was more just the point of principle than anything else, it was so well known that the noteys Betcom were using were absolute shite, there was no way they didn't know about it. It was a right haggle as well, the pay should have been £153, they started at £119, then agreed to £135, then finally agreed to £153. I think in the end they figured it was cheaper for them to just give me my money to make me go away.
Ha, just had a search, I kept arguing with them until they gave me the full amount, down to the last £18
I didn't even take it for myself, I just let my brother know there was £18 he could collect from there when he was next passing, and to get himself a takeaway or something with it.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2013
- Location
- Kent
lol Chop.
I think my best was
"look, mr Wetherspoon's manager, if i put in a tenner, i eats it up. Also, look a this recording from 5 seconds ago, it stole my money and gave no credits, but luckily I was recording!"
"ah, i see. yes, i saw that. It Just swallowed your money. I'll call the engineer, so that's 40 it owes you now then."
Some days later...
"hello again mr Wetherspoon's manager. I'll have a pint of your freshly out of date tranny piss please, oh, and have you got my 30 bones from digi unit from he engineer, yet?"
"Oh. he came and had a look, and said it was a false claim"
I then begun to wonder what happens if i fold up all the nice beer coasters on the nearby tables, and wedge them into the machines holes, so decided to find out.
....
I think my best was
"look, mr Wetherspoon's manager, if i put in a tenner, i eats it up. Also, look a this recording from 5 seconds ago, it stole my money and gave no credits, but luckily I was recording!"
"ah, i see. yes, i saw that. It Just swallowed your money. I'll call the engineer, so that's 40 it owes you now then."
Some days later...
"hello again mr Wetherspoon's manager. I'll have a pint of your freshly out of date tranny piss please, oh, and have you got my 30 bones from digi unit from he engineer, yet?"
"Oh. he came and had a look, and said it was a false claim"
I then begun to wonder what happens if i fold up all the nice beer coasters on the nearby tables, and wedge them into the machines holes, so decided to find out.
....
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2021
- Location
- Over here
So I wonder what that does to the already abysmal RTPs?
- Joined
- May 10, 2014
- Location
- UK
Not that I need to start shouting at the same cloud on this one - I remember my "structured rant" made it to the video of the day ? - sure enough, the warning that the UKGC were asleep was a hint of what was to come.
This is the sad part - the big names are so risk-averse that we end up with 200 versions of Fishin Frenzy or Lightning Link, and the small names are more interested in leeching off those ideas rather than try and come up with something unique...
There are whole tranches of ideas floating around that nobody has taken on - they're more interested in "innovating" by releasing yet another knock-off of Pharaoh's Tomb (like Eye of Horus).
And the list kept going... Blueprint "All Action" with the base game removed, tiers of bonus buys, enhanced spins, paid respins, Barcrest big bets (cloned from the FOBTs), and then as you mention operators and casinos alike skipping the game entirely and doing text-based adventures at hyper-turbo-mega speed, only presenting the visuals for big wins and bonuses.
I don't give the UKGC credit for much now-a-days, but banning bonus buys saved us a lot of headaches - and showed just how dire most modern "slots" (if you can even call them that, probably scratch cards at this point) actually are.
Fishin frenzy is probably the worst game I've ever played. You put it on auto spins for 100 spins and about 60-70 of those spins are completely dead. Sprinkled in between those are a few micro wins. If you're lucky you might catch a 5x bet win somewhere. Then you miraculously hit the bonus round on the last spin out of those 100 spins and lo and behold you win exactly up to what your starting balance was.
Rinse and repeat this over and over and I'm supposed to believe this shit is totally random? Yeah right.
Rinse and repeat this over and over and I'm supposed to believe this shit is totally random? Yeah right.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2017
- Location
- England
So it’s 100% RTP then??
Every time I play any Fishin frenzy bollox it’s a complete shit show.
In fact if any of those games make RTP I’d be amazed based on my experience with them. Yet for some reason they are so popular. Why??
Got to be some of the worse games ever made.
Always use to wind me up when sitting in bookies on a Keybet or poker or something and litterally anybody that loaded up the game would bonus it off peanuts!! So tilty as every time I tried it would be absolute carnage to land one.
Every time I play any Fishin frenzy bollox it’s a complete shit show.
In fact if any of those games make RTP I’d be amazed based on my experience with them. Yet for some reason they are so popular. Why??
Got to be some of the worse games ever made.
Always use to wind me up when sitting in bookies on a Keybet or poker or something and litterally anybody that loaded up the game would bonus it off peanuts!! So tilty as every time I tried it would be absolute carnage to land one.
frankelvscc
Newbie member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2024
- Location
- Bognor regis
Slot tracker is very interesting for example on there big bass bonanza 420,000 spins from the community who have the extension and only a 72% RTP. Then again big bass splash 406,000 spins for a RTP of 116%.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
I can't remember the thread where it was discussed, but by all accounts that Slot Tracker isn't necessarily very good at tracking slots, and gets stuff wrong. It can't be trusted as an authoritative source of stats.
- Joined
- May 13, 2014
- Location
- Wolverhampton
Along with many, many other things
**Not aimed at you, have to 'cover my arse' on here these days, just in case
What RTP tracker would you recommend?
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
I'm not aware of any third party applications that do the job flawlessly, none of the slot providers publish any kind of APIs or suchlike to hook into (that I know of), so any effort is by definition going to be a bit hacky and prone to errors.
You've got stuff like Videoslots' MyRTP feature which seems to work well, and hooks into their own backend, so should be accurate. At 3Dice you can pull your own play logs as .csv files and manipulate them in Excel, but that's very much the exception rather than the rule.
I think the best answer is probably just asking the casino for your stats, although that's a right ballache of course, and requires running the gauntlet of customer support.....
I wouldn't trust any numbers you haven't verified yourself. And forget about any chats, the people that work in livechats are for the most part completely useless. Most of them have no idea what rtp even is. It's some pimply faced teenager answering there that's probably never even played at a casino.
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2017
- Location
- United Kingdom
I see live chat operators as the casino equivalent of people who skip paying for their meals at restaurants and are made to wash dishes as compensation.
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2019
- Location
- sweden
Once in a while you get to talk to someone that is actually knowledgeable about slots, the casino they are representing, their terms etc.
But that is sadly not the norm, i reached out to a Swedish casino a while back to ask about what rtp they were using etc, couldnt see without making an account so i figured it would be quicker just to ask since i wasnt going to play there unless they were running 96%+.
The guy i talked to told me all casinos with a Swedish license use the highest rtp available and that they have to do that.
I tried to explain to him that casinos can pick and choose what rtp they want to run on their slots but he was not having it.
No clue where he got that idea from, but he was adamant about it so i gave up.
Not so surprisingly they were in fact not using the highest rtp models.
Who could have guessed.
But that is sadly not the norm, i reached out to a Swedish casino a while back to ask about what rtp they were using etc, couldnt see without making an account so i figured it would be quicker just to ask since i wasnt going to play there unless they were running 96%+.
The guy i talked to told me all casinos with a Swedish license use the highest rtp available and that they have to do that.
I tried to explain to him that casinos can pick and choose what rtp they want to run on their slots but he was not having it.
No clue where he got that idea from, but he was adamant about it so i gave up.
Not so surprisingly they were in fact not using the highest rtp models.
Who could have guessed.
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2019
- Location
- sweden
Oh right, the info tab they had on Dead or alive was also wrong, which i also told them.
But once again i was told i was wrong.
But in their defense, its pretty hard to figure out how Dead or alive works.
Not even Netent can do it, so expecting a casino to figure it out might be asking too much.
This is from Netent. I must have been playing a different version of Dead or alive.
Anyone familiar with our slots will know that we offer Free Spins feature and Dead or Alive™ is no different in this case. You can trigger it by landing three or more of the Guns Symbols simultaneously at any position on the reels. Afterwards, you will receive up to twelve Free Spins, and all your wins are doubled with a 2x multiplier. Also, you will receive a cash prize before playing, which is dependent on the number of Guns Scatters triggered in the feature. It ranges from 4x to 2500x your wager! Also, you can reactivate the feature when you get three or more Guns Scatters on any position of the reels.
Wilds
What players find most appealing about the Free Spins feature is the Sticky Wild! The Wild symbol here is the Wanted Poster, which will eventually get to turn into a Sticky Wild during this bonus game feature. As a result, the symbols will remain in position for the entire Free Spins feature. If you get one or more of the Sticky Wilds, you will be awarded an extra five spins.
Multiplier Wins
Feeling lucky? If yes, you stand the chance to get a massive 29 Free Spins with which you will have a 2x multiplier that doubles every win! So, you get double your wins as you make use of the additional spins you received. When you add that to the Sticky Wilds, you are sure to accumulate a massive payout from the game. Also, when you get a lot of Sticky Wilds, you have the chance to win big, as much as 3000x your stake on every Free Spin you use.
But once again i was told i was wrong.
But in their defense, its pretty hard to figure out how Dead or alive works.
Not even Netent can do it, so expecting a casino to figure it out might be asking too much.
This is from Netent. I must have been playing a different version of Dead or alive.
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Dead or Alive Free Spins and Bonuses
Free SpinsAnyone familiar with our slots will know that we offer Free Spins feature and Dead or Alive™ is no different in this case. You can trigger it by landing three or more of the Guns Symbols simultaneously at any position on the reels. Afterwards, you will receive up to twelve Free Spins, and all your wins are doubled with a 2x multiplier. Also, you will receive a cash prize before playing, which is dependent on the number of Guns Scatters triggered in the feature. It ranges from 4x to 2500x your wager! Also, you can reactivate the feature when you get three or more Guns Scatters on any position of the reels.
Wilds
What players find most appealing about the Free Spins feature is the Sticky Wild! The Wild symbol here is the Wanted Poster, which will eventually get to turn into a Sticky Wild during this bonus game feature. As a result, the symbols will remain in position for the entire Free Spins feature. If you get one or more of the Sticky Wilds, you will be awarded an extra five spins.
Multiplier Wins
Feeling lucky? If yes, you stand the chance to get a massive 29 Free Spins with which you will have a 2x multiplier that doubles every win! So, you get double your wins as you make use of the additional spins you received. When you add that to the Sticky Wilds, you are sure to accumulate a massive payout from the game. Also, when you get a lot of Sticky Wilds, you have the chance to win big, as much as 3000x your stake on every Free Spin you use.
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Pretty much spot on in respect of online slots. I'd also add that, in addition to the near complete disconnect of what you are seeing on screen and what the slot is realistically doing in the background is the mindset being put into modern slots. Slots always used to tease and have varying sizes of payouts on features but you always felt these were somewhat fair. Even with the smoke and mirrors many. as you say, had reel sets which could allow for a degree of a clue as to what the slot was capable of.There are multiple culprits we can point to in the intriguing case of 'Who Killed Online Slots?' - massively increasing volatility and impenetrable maths models would certainly be near the top of the list, especially as 'real reels' are basically now a thing of the past (even on reel based games), and obviously so on cluster based games and suchlike. Games such as Bonanza have reel strips so long as to be near meaningless, and can switch them out dynamically depending on what it's doing (or perhaps more tellingly, what it doesn't want to happen).
In the days of the MG Viper Client slots, you could literally extract the reel strips and work out the game maths, plus the paytables often gave a very good indication as to the volatility of the game you were playing. This was one of the reasons I stuck with 3Dice for so long, as they still had a decent number of these more 'traditional' style games on their books, but alas even they went down the cluster game route and I found myself feeling increasingly uninspired by their output. (I had high hopes for their most recent release Dreamweaver, which looks like a reel-based game, but then you actually play it and realise it's a cluster game. Sigh.)
I reviewed it in this thread - Introducing a brand new Slot at 3Dice -DREAMWEAVER! 100% Match up to $100! - Casinomeister Forum
I remember we discussed some of this stuff at great length when the whole Jammin' Jars controversy played out, and many of us noted here at CM, and myself in videos on my previous YT channel, that we'd reached a point of complete disconnect between what the player was seeing on screen, and what the backend server RNG was doing, to the point that you're not playing an online slot at all in the sense of what many of us would consider that to be.
Add in all the other stuff that's going on, nerfed RTPs, old (far better!) games constantly being retired (I know it's hard to believe now but NetEnt used to put out banger after banger!), general shittiness from both online casinos and the regulators, along with the increased friction in getting money in and out of online casinos, and of course the constant deluge of what are IMO low-effort games from a million different providers who are motivated to create games that take as much money as possible, as quickly as possible, in their brief 'window of opportunity', as opposed to trying to satisfy you in the longer term as both a player and customer - and well, it's certainly no mystery as to why I've decided to hang my online slotting hat up and do something else.
(Oh and bonus buys of course, which I think have corrupted game design on a fundamental and completely unfixable level for as long as they continue to exist. Plus, lest we forget NLC's action spins, which literally do away with the entire pretence of even making a fucking game at all, reducing the process down to the gambling equivalent of injecting heroin straight into the veins.)
I mean, on a broader sort of level, I actually agree with snorky - i.e. it's all gone to shit and there's no point playing anymore, we just seem to have a difference of opinion on the specifics of exactly what's happened
These days, not only is that about as far away from reality as can be imagined, but the designers seem to go out of their way to induce "rage" playing. They design the slots to seemingly thrive on winding the player up. So many slots get a feature to a point where any sort of win will be a decent to very decent win then promptly spin out with dead spins. Many Book of Dead style games give you a symbol which may as well be Danger High Voltage level of occurance right down to a 10 as they introduce mechanics which promise what it 99% of the time can't deliver.
The overall designs are all based on one hit smashes in amongst 1000's of spins just take, take, take. There are exceptions but these are becoming increasingly difficult to find.
TBH, if I fancy a go I'll stick to slots whcih are slightly more reliable for play time and actually thank UKGC for banning Bonus Buys. When the likes of the absolute filth that is NLC introducing Max win or nothing spins and 3600x max bonus buy on their latest Mining debacle (they really are reprehensible) we are very much better off out of it.
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If each major slots firm uses their own RNG program, how do they differ from each other or to the generic one you can use on google?
Surely, there has to be a 'best' way of achieving a pseudo random outcome, why isn't there a single program they all use [or is this exactly what they do]?
Surely, there has to be a 'best' way of achieving a pseudo random outcome, why isn't there a single program they all use [or is this exactly what they do]?
lockinlove
Editing my post so I dont get in trouble
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The only thing I know in this industry for 100% certain out of all the providers, all the claims all of the...whatever...its Microgaming has been massively tampered with. Massively.
Its quite sad. Some of my funnest memories was playing MG slots on a Saturday night in the viper client. I feel like the odds of getting a 200x hit on MG slots is in the millions now. Millions if not trillions
Its quite sad. Some of my funnest memories was playing MG slots on a Saturday night in the viper client. I feel like the odds of getting a 200x hit on MG slots is in the millions now. Millions if not trillions
That is the mystery. Coding an approximation of a RNG can't be that difficult, though likely with wildly varying results and effectiveness.
To have one definitive 'standard' in use as opposed to each programmer's whims might aid some of the transparency and fairness element in proceedings!
Software like 'Casino Kid' on the Nintendo Entertainment System from 1989 isn't likely to be the same as a high-stakes multi-million pound modern slot, though principally 'the same'....
One can always spot the hallmark of a BTG RNG however, as theirs removes the high numbers after ten spins
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Schind
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I think this is the key. In a truly random world what's to stop the jackpot going three or four times in quick succession? It's unlikely, but possible. Can a casino or games developer afford to take that risk? The top progressive jackpot on Jackpot King has recently gone on Entain. It was around £4.5 to £5 million if I recall. This money has been made up of contributions but the reseed values are either £250,000 or £500,000 so there's a big lump they need to recover before allowing the jackpot to go again. It won't go for months but, in a truly random world, it could again today - twice - and then again tomorrow.
Or look at roulette. Some tables have a human throwing the ball into the wheel. You'd assume that's fair and honest so why is there a need for automated wheels? They still have someone presenting so they're not saving money by employing fewer people but they feel the need to spend God knows how many thousands of pounds extra for an automated wheel with a PRNG.
People and companies can't handle true randomness. I think it was QI who said Apple had to tinker with the iPod as people were complaining the same song was being played twice on the trot when in shuffle mode. Very likely to happen, especially if you only have a few hundred tracks on it.
I still use my iPod - it has around 25,000 tracks on it. In 13 years I don't think I've ever had the same artist appear more than twice on the trot, despite having many hundreds of tracks by some bands. It's impossible for the same song to appear twice in a row now as once a track is played it's removed from the 'pool' until you reset it. Is this how slots are done?
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100% all the slots have been nerfed - I took a very very long break from gambling and I started again casually but it has now got to the point where I realised that the slots are so much worse now than they used to be they was bad before I quit.
But now they are just a scam 100%. I am also sick of seeing every day loads of new shite cash collect games you know the ones where you need 6 coins to trigger the hold and win etc. There is so many of them now from a variety of different providers and most have them have tiny grand jackpots of only like 500X bet or 1000X bet. And I bet no one has ever even won a grand jackpot on any of the fuckers.
I did not read what everyone said in this thread but I did read the first post so I just felt this was a good thread to let of a rant on.
My observations since I came back to gambling is the amount of dead spins, I mean they ranged from 10-20 before I quit gambling but now I was getting between 20-50 dead spins in a row from many providers slots. This was even on some low volatile slots as well. So for sure they have totally been rigged and nerfed and the RTP I am unsure if it is actually genuine what the slot states it is at in the casinos I have been playing them in. I mean honestly is it even possible that casinos could be doing fishy things? or slot providers faking the true RTP? by listing the rtp at 94% or 96% and the slot is actually set at 87%. Because honestly that is exactly what they feel like when I have been playing them since I came back to gambling.
Last 3 days I had sessions where my deposits lasted 10mins and poof gone poof gone poof gone. depo loss depo loss etc etc rinse repeat. So yeah I am so angry I started playing again I really am. I think I will stop again, Also that slot choice for the upcoming battle weekend at videoslots is also not even worth doing MT4 is going to be dead spin city and RAW, no explanation needed on that scam provider.
Anyway my rant is over for now at least.
But now they are just a scam 100%. I am also sick of seeing every day loads of new shite cash collect games you know the ones where you need 6 coins to trigger the hold and win etc. There is so many of them now from a variety of different providers and most have them have tiny grand jackpots of only like 500X bet or 1000X bet. And I bet no one has ever even won a grand jackpot on any of the fuckers.
I did not read what everyone said in this thread but I did read the first post so I just felt this was a good thread to let of a rant on.
My observations since I came back to gambling is the amount of dead spins, I mean they ranged from 10-20 before I quit gambling but now I was getting between 20-50 dead spins in a row from many providers slots. This was even on some low volatile slots as well. So for sure they have totally been rigged and nerfed and the RTP I am unsure if it is actually genuine what the slot states it is at in the casinos I have been playing them in. I mean honestly is it even possible that casinos could be doing fishy things? or slot providers faking the true RTP? by listing the rtp at 94% or 96% and the slot is actually set at 87%. Because honestly that is exactly what they feel like when I have been playing them since I came back to gambling.
Last 3 days I had sessions where my deposits lasted 10mins and poof gone poof gone poof gone. depo loss depo loss etc etc rinse repeat. So yeah I am so angry I started playing again I really am. I think I will stop again, Also that slot choice for the upcoming battle weekend at videoslots is also not even worth doing MT4 is going to be dead spin city and RAW, no explanation needed on that scam provider.
Anyway my rant is over for now at least.
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You can account for this in the maths of the slot, the reseed values are incorporated into the RTP, over the full simulation cycle of billions of spins, once you get the number of samples high enough, you can work it all out with long term probability and achieve the expected T-RTP. It can all be done with true, fair randomness.
Now, whether or not all progressives actually work like this is a different question, certainly they could code in a protection system that prevents progressives being paid out back-to-back, for example, and could anyone ever prove it? Nope.....
There's a long-standing myth around computers not being able to generate 'true random' numbers, this is sort of technically true in the driest sense of the word (all down to the algorithm used, seed values and suchlike), and it is also true that in the early days of video poker games in Vegas, some people were able to crack the sequences and work them out, because the limited computing power available at the time made this feasible (i.e the sequences weren't really that long) - but it's been a solved problem for a long long time now, all you need to do is throw a random element into the calculation mix, any kind of externally observable value will do the trick. (A real time clock is an obvious one, that can provide reseeds as often as required.)
In reality however, modern computers are so powerful that even pseudo-random number generation is good enough for the vast majority of applications, and can generate output that is essentially indistinguishable from truly random results.
iPods and other media players (and old physical CD players with a 'random' button) famously had really basic pseudorandom number generation, which was deemed 'good enough' for the task they performed.
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frankelvscc
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Of course providers can turn down the RTP anytime they want I believe they can tinker with it however they like. I mean it definitely feels like that sometimes
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This, with gold ribbons!
Schind
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But why do you need complex maths?
As most slots are just a collection of scratchcards all you have to do is number each one from one to a million or however many possible results the game has and pick a number. Just like on the ipod.
I get that you need something that's not easily cracked but when I hear things like 'complex mathematical models' then I begin to suspect they're nudging the randomness in their favour or they're pretending something that's actually quite simple is really hard.
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Well I can’t speak for online jackpots but the Megamillions jackpot in Nevada was won a frankly staggering four times last year. I think that reseeds at $10m, possibly more, and is $3 a spin so that certainly indicates a level of freaky randomness.
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And indeed that has happened - Mega Moolah reportedly dropped ten times in the space of six months in 2017, compared to every couple of months. Particularly noteworthy that on two occasions it dropped within hours of the previous hit - apparently paying CAD$1,000,350 and AUD$1,000,727.
And then at the other extreme, there was a period around 2015 where it had a few six month drops - which resulted in the biggest jackpot triggered at £13.2m (since exceeded by €38.5m on Wowpot).
The key part, that is often undisclosed, is how the jackpot operates - is it true random, will it ramp up over time, does it have a must-drop curve? Providers tend to be pretty opaque on this stuff at the best of times, some won't even disclose how the jackpot contributions behave.
More important, the description by the operator doesn't always match the actual operation of the progressive - so a case where the player will be told and/or assume one thing, but the reality can be very different.
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The complex maths would refer to genuine slots - although while there is some mathematics to get your head around, it's more complexity in terms of size (e.g. five reels = five RNG calls = billions of combinations) rather than understanding. Now-a-days that's easy to do on a computer and you can render out your 10 billion game rounds in a few hours, but if you think back 20 or 30 years ago that work would have been more demanding computationally.
If you want to see what goes into one, have a look at some of the old WMS specification sheets - will show you everything from RTP, to reel strips, to win frequencies. It looks scary at first, but most slot players would understand it fairly quickly.
For modern scratchcard games, it could be as few as one RNG call - the complexity there is how to describe the game round in a way that is interesting to the player and doesn't fall afoul of any regulations (which as we've mentioned previously, are sorely lacking because drops are not a real-world equivalent compared to reels).
In regards to RNG, it'll be because you don't want predictable numbers - otherwise you have an
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where people can predict the RNG to such a degree that you can beat the house edge comfortably.
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Well that saves me a job as that was basically going to be my reply
I do feel that 'real reels' slot design was far more elegant, and indeed required more effort on the part of the developer, balancing out the reel sets, getting the feature frequency and pay spread correct, and so on. Also of course, it was far more transparent for the player. (There was famously one RTG slot back in the day where you could work out which casinos were running the shitty RTP model of the slot because a premium symbol had been swapped out for a card symbol on one of the reels.)
These scratchcard style games (Jammin' Jars/Reactoonz/etc ad nauseum) honestly just feel cheap to me, like the developer hasn't kept up their side of the bargain in delivering a proper online slot to the player, but we're still expected to pay top whack to play it. It also makes the maths of the games far more opaque and if an unscrupulous developer did want to mess about with them, it'd be super easy for them to do so by just pissing about with the spread of the pool of results.
And whilst games such as Bonanza do technically use proper reels, the sheer length of them, along with the way it can swap them around as and when it wants to, arguably makes it just as bad, if perhaps not worse, than the scratchcard style games, because the player is given no clue that the 'rules of the game' as it were are literally changing right under their feet.
Anyway, coming up to the end of the second month of my online casino free lifestyle. It's nice. I've really been enjoying getting deeply into reading books. Read an entire book in two nights earlier in the week, took me ten hours in two evenings of five hours each, it was great, and it only cost me a tenner. And I can read the book again whenever I want! Try depositing a tenner to play Bonanza and see where it gets you.....
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I think the key problem here is they're so divorced from reality at this point - where the teases are so blatant and so fake that it loses impact because you know it's not going to happen.
The one that still gets me is a scripted and capped game - a reel-based game has a liability limit because mathematically it is possible to have insanely large wins (as in tens of millions of pounds) but the odds are so astronomical (quadrillions to one at maximum stake) that we probably won't see it in the lifetime of slotting.
On the other hand, a scripted game is fully controlled - there are no variables, there are no edge cases... so why does it need to be capped? It almost feels like it's straying into fraud because they know they are advertising wins that they have no intention of paying out - can you imagine the reaction of someone hitting 60000x on one of the Scammin Jars games, and then it goes "oops, 10000x win limit".
As we've discussed before - if people imagine a world without disclosed RTPs, in some cases scratchcard slots can remove one jackpot ball from the bag to adjust the RTP by 1-2%. There is zero chance you'd ever work that out from playing it...
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Well that saves me a job as that was basically going to be my reply
I do feel that 'real reels' slot design was far more elegant, and indeed required more effort on the part of the developer, balancing out the reel sets, getting the feature frequency and pay spread correct, and so on. Also of course, it was far more transparent for the player. (There was famously one RTG slot back in the day where you could work out which casinos were running the shitty RTP model of the slot because a premium symbol had been swapped out for a card symbol on one of the reels.)
These scratchcard style games (Jammin' Jars/Reactoonz/etc ad nauseum) honestly just feel cheap to me, like the developer hasn't kept up their side of the bargain in delivering a proper online slot to the player, but we're still expected to pay top whack to play it. It also makes the maths of the games far more opaque and if an unscrupulous developer did want to mess about with them, it'd be super easy for them to do so by just pissing about with the spread of the pool of results.
And whilst games such as Bonanza do technically use proper reels, the sheer length of them, along with the way it can swap them around as and when it wants to, arguably makes it just as bad, if perhaps not worse, than the scratchcard style games, because the player is given no clue that the 'rules of the game' as it were are literally changing right under their feet.
Anyway, coming up to the end of the second month of my online casino free lifestyle. It's nice. I've really been enjoying getting deeply into reading books. Read an entire book in two nights earlier in the week, took me ten hours in two evenings of five hours each, it was great, and it only cost me a tenner. And I can read the book again whenever I want! Try depositing a tenner to play Bonanza and see where it gets you.....
I have to politely disagree with this. I believe (and think I read somewhere a while back on here) they are randomly (*cough*) generated each spin.
You mention they are long, yes indeed if all the different combinations along with all the different Megaways were created into a reel strip, they would comfortably wrap around the planet, several times.
PS: Don't start a sentence with "And" - We wouldn't want to take the shine of our forum achievement now would we?
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