Primapoker funds confiscations (Lucky Nugget Poker and Poker333)

[BlueBear]

Hi,

I just started an account at LuckyNugget for about two weeks. I made a deposit of $500 at LuckyNugget poker. I have turned it to $1300+.

I made a cashout of $50 in order to test the speed of the system for the first time at Lucky Nugget Poker. I was then asked to submit my documents to them to verify my identity.

After sending repeated documents, there was no action. I have talked to the customer support over the phone. Unfortunately, they said that my account has been closed down permanently and I won't receive my winnings due to security reasons! I find this very strange as my documents are legitimite. The support refused to tell me the reason for the account closure but said they will refund my initial deposit. But I will have my $800 winnings confiscated.

Does anybody know how I should proceed? My user name at Lucky Nugget Poker is "momothedog" if any support staff would like to check this.

 

[JHV]

BlueBear, try **www.pokerconduct.com** -

JHV

 

[Moonshadow23]

Hmm, I opened an account with them and won 2K. After submitting my documents, they did an ACH deposit into my account w/in two days. Can't say they've given me a problem. I hope you can get this straightened out. Casinomeister should be able to help you as he recommends that casino on his site. Why not use "pitch a bitch".

 

[KasinoKing]

This makes absolutely no sense at all. You say you were only playing poker?
If so, there is no way the casino can legitimately confiscate your winnings the money simply does not belong to them.
If you were playing only poker against other people, you won the money from them NOT from the casino. Even if you have breached some T&C (e.g. Multiple accounts, collusion, etc.) this would not change the fact that the money is not the casinos to take back. The very worst that should happen is they should pay you and close your account (if you have done something wrong).
Please keep us informed of the outcome

 

[BlueBear]

Indeed, i was just playing poker. A clean and fair game of poker.

In the past, I had an account in another Prima Poker skin (Lucky Nugget is a Primapoker skin), but there was no problems because I declared this account correctly when I created my Lucky Nugget poker. As I am typing this, I have got someone to look at this matter for me.

 

[sweetdenny]

KK point on poker

Having read your point kasino king that the money is not the casinos i must tell you about the problem my friend and i have with piggs peak poker i played on seven sultans poker and won 1000 bucks all fair and legitamate from other players and seven sultans confirm that my account is in good order so just before christmas i was due my friend money so decided quickest way to repay him was to just lose it directly to him from my account so we both sat at a table he was on his piggs peak account and there was no one else at this table so just us and i lost the 1000 bucks to him he then went to withdraw his money that was gained fair and square and was told his account was getting investigated they then came back to him and said his accoutn was locked and the funds were confiscated we both contacted support and told them what we did but they say it was chipdumping and that is against the rules we then asked what happened to the money and were told IT HAS DISAPPEARED INTO CYBER SPACE and we would never see it again this was from sandy koor CSR for piggs peak who is a member of this board the response totally shocked me so i then contacted casinomeister and asked him to help but he said that it was chipdumping and therefore he was doing nothing else about it i know that pigggs peak are providing freerolls etc for this board but surely that doesent grant them immunity from brian confronting them as even though we were not chipdumping just losing on purpose no fraud was being committed and for the record the terms and conditions dont even state chipdumping is not allowed what are we meant to do there is nowhere else to go if casinomeister wont even confront Sandy Koor the fact he even said the funds dissapear into cyber space is a joke sorry about no full stops or sentances as my english suqs

 

[KasinoKing]

sorry about no full stops or sentances as my english suqs

Jeeezus! That must be the longest sentence in history!

1. I don't see why being bad at English (which is not that bad anyway) stops you from pressing the shift and full stop keys!
2. I am not in any way involved in player disputes, and have no contacts which ANY casinos. I can't help you.
3. My post above is just my personal opinion - I am sure there will be those that disagree.
4. My opinion on your story (if true) is that you should definitely get your money back. However, I do see that this could be described as money laundering. If your deposit was from a different country to your friends withdrawal then I would expect problems.
5. The Casinomeister might be more helpful if you spelt his name correctly - it's BRYAN!

Good luck

 

[sweetdenny]

reply kk

I did not expect you to help casino king have read most of your posts and know you are not connected to casinos other than playing there. My post is one hundred percent true. The deposits and withdrawals are from the uk so that poses no problem we told Sandy Koor that i lost it on purpose and why seeing as it was days before xmas my friend would get his cash quicker. I asked them to put it back in my account and i would cash it out so therefore no money laundering would take place but they refused. It was at this point that i asked what happened to the cash as as you said i won it from others so therefore it should be returned to them or me or my friend anywhere bar the casino and was told it has dissapeared into cyber space. It is not the issue of the money being lost but this one statement and that there is nothing that can be done about it other than post and hope no one else joins and risks there money dissapering into cyber space. I have tried using sentances here and as you see they probably arent in the right place and thats the reason i dont use them. Lastly must apologise for spelling Bryan wrong but in other correspondence i had with him im sure i spelt it correct but yet he still wouldnt contact Sandy Koor and i can only assume that he doesent want to rock the boat and lose the freerolls provided by piggs peak.

 

[BlueBear]

Upon personally contacting a senior-level staff who works for that site, the closure of my account has been reversed and now my account is reopened with no restrictions.

It was just a simple matter of an accidental error made on their side. Although this incident should have never happened, I am very glad that swift action has been taken and will continue to be a loyal customer to Lucky Nugget Poker.

 

[KasinoKing]

Lastly must apologise for spelling Bryan wrong but in other correspondence i had with him im sure i spelt it correct but yet he still wouldnt contact Sandy Koor and i can only assume that he doesent want to rock the boat and lose the freerolls provided by piggs peak.

Horse-sh*t!!!

I don't know Bryan personally, and have never needed his help myself, but I am 100% sure he would help you if you had a legitimate case. Why not try asking him (politely and without insinuations) again?

Upon personally contacting a senior-level staff who works for that site, the closure of my account has been reversed and now my account is reopened with no restrictions.

It was just a simple matter of an accidental error made on their side. Although this incident should have never happened, I am very glad that swift action has been taken and will continue to be a loyal customer to Lucky Nugget Poker.

Very glad to hear your good news!

 

[swampwitch]

sweetdenny...what you were doing can also be construed as "collusion". You were not playing legitimate hands. And you were caught. I refer you to the Prima Poker website, Secure Play, Anti-collusion rule....
Outdated URL (Invalid)

Anti-Collusion
There is very little that cheaters can do on line. No one can mark the cards, no one can peek at your hole cards, no one can stack the deck or put a cold deck on the table. Playing poker on line is very safe. The things that can and do happen in land casinos and card rooms cant happen on line.

However, there is one thing that happens in land casinos that some cheaters do try to get away with on line: they try to collude, that is, share information and play their hands in order to help each other win. This is also known as playing partners.

Clearly, colluding is not tolerated at Prima Poker. In order to thwart any and all attempts at collusion among players, Microgaming, with its years of experience in fraud detection and prevention, has developed Collusion Detection Software (patent pending) that, among other capabilities, tracks all play in real time. Every hand played at Prima Poker is automatically and instantly analyzed. The software watches for and recognizes in real time any and all plays used by colluding players and, whenever any suspicious plays are detected, the players hand histories are brought up for examination by our experienced, expert staff.

Colluders will have their accounts frozen and be banned from Prima Poker and all its affiliated sites worldwide.

Why didn't you just play it safe by cashing out, and then pay your friend?

Wow. I actually agree with Casinomeister on something.

 

[sweetdenny]

Horse shit

An excellent adult reply there kk i have given the full facts in this thread and you yourself seem to think i have a legitimate case that the casinos cannot keep the money as it dont belong to them this is why i am so peeved they cannot say it has dissapeared into cyber space. I have given the same facts to bryan and i cannot answer for him as to why he will not take this case on i can only specualte as i got no reply to last message to him asking if he was going to do anything about it. Thankyou swamp for posting that quote i to have read this and this is not a case of playing partners which would be colluding and therefore the accoutns would deserve to be closed down all i did was lose the money on purpose no one else was involved so this is not collusion. This is the same as if u were to reach the final table of a multi and the frist prize was a trip and the second prize was 5000 dolalrs if you let yourself get blinded out so you got second as you couldnt go on the trip would this be classed as collsuion as it is exactly the same as i did losing on purpose is not collusion. I won the money fair and square not cheating this is a legitamate case i wish i had now cashed the funds out myself rather than losing to my friend but he had neteller so he wouldl have got the money b4 xmas and i would have had to get a check sent i thought i was doing him a favour and it all blew up.

 

[tim5ny]

Upon personally contacting a senior-level staff who works for that site, the closure of my account has been reversed and now my account is reopened with no restrictions.

It was just a simple matter of an accidental error made on their side. Although this incident should have never happened, I am very glad that swift action has been taken and will continue to be a loyal customer to Lucky Nugget Poker.

The only error made on their side is in thinking that you weren't going to post your problem here on this forum. They don't like this kind of publicity, and if they did this to you, how many other players are getting stiffed because they don't know about player watchdog sites like this?? It's a numbers game with these kinds of tactics! You do this to 10 players, and your bound to get 3 or 4 of them to go away without fighting for their money. Sad to see Microgaming casinos pulling this shit now.

 

[Aindreas_Daoc]

even though we were not chipdumping just losing on purpose

Fun stuff. Losing on purpose is the definition of chip dumping. Every poker site on the planet will close your and your friend's account, and most of them will keep the money. Rightfully so.

There is very few good reasons to do this, and all of them are illegal: money laundering or tax avoidance, for example.

 

[sweetdenny]

Agree

Yes i agree there is no valid reason usually associated with chip dumping and all reasons are usually dodgy but we have told the casino all the facts and none of the ones you mentioned took place or any other illegal things happened all i did was let my friend win the money so he got it in time for xmas. You are wrong when you say most casinos will close the account and keep the money i have asked other poker sites that i am a member of and they have said they wouldnt and that common sense could be used. My friends account and my account were totally legit and no fraud was ever committed on our accounts before this and all documentation is correct no dodgy credit cards or anything was used i made a simple error thinking i was doing my friend a favour and explained this all to the casino but they have just said no and that is it.

 

[Petunia]

** Sweetdenny - To tell you the HONEST truth, I did not read your whole mail, and was wondering if you typed like that to Bryan as well? On the issue about 'all those freerolls' hmmmm - I DO know Bryan, and can tell you, from the beginning of time, he would do what is RIGHT, not was is 'better for him' - so - Let me tell you that if you banged an e-mail like your posts to me, i'd ignore it untill i've taken tranquilizers (which would seem the only way it would make sense to me at all!)

Something does not sit well with what you did... obviously. It might not BE money laundering, but it certainly might be seen as it.

Now - on the case of money just going missing in cyberspace? WOAH!! That is not even an answer that should be given in the first place. Your post leaves me with questions though:

You keep on saying you lost your money on purpose, and then say "but no-one else was involved" - Although contradictory... the truth is.. IT IS CHIPDUMPING! Your mistake was to admid to it...
The casino cannot have one set of rules for one person, because they owe money to another... and a different set of rules to prevent money laundering, and yet another set of rules for 'the average joe'.
At the worst, they should have refunded your deposit - that IS standard practice for MOST casinos. So if ANYTHING, insist on that. YOU get YOUR deposit back, and if he made one too, het get his back too...

To get ANY help at all, start by getting help with the typing of your mails. IT might help your case a little more. Your English is good... but not an angry spanish chica will string her sentences together like that!! (I know, I checked with one!) **

 

[KasinoKing]

An excellent adult reply there kk i have given the full facts in this thread and you yourself seem to think i have a legitimate case that the casinos cannot keep the money as it dont belong to them this is why i am so peeved they cannot say it has dissapeared into cyber space. I have given the same facts to bryan and i cannot answer for him as to why he will not take this case on i can only specualte as i got no reply to last message to him asking if he was going to do anything about it.

Just to clear it up - my horse-poop statement was only in relation to your comments about Bryan.

I 100% agree that you should get 100% of your money back.
What you did might have been slightly foolish - no more than that - but what the casino did is theft, pure and simple.
Don't give up on it!

PS: I think Bryan might be 'out of the office' at the moment - I haven't seen a post by him for days...?

 

[swampwitch]

At the worst, they should have refunded your deposit - that IS standard practice for MOST casinos. So if ANYTHING, insist on that. YOU get YOUR deposit back, and if he made one too, het get his back too...

I'd go along with that. I think that technically, they don't have to, but it would be a gracious gesture on their part. IF the circumstances are as you describe.

 

[Freudian]

This makes absolutely no sense at all. You say you were only playing poker?
If so, there is no way the casino can legitimately confiscate your winnings the money simply does not belong to them.
If you were playing only poker against other people, you won the money from them NOT from the casino. Even if you have breached some T&C (e.g. Multiple accounts, collusion, etc.) this would not change the fact that the money is not the casinos to take back. The very worst that should happen is they should pay you and close your account (if you have done something wrong).
Please keep us informed of the outcome

I think the most common reason for this behaviour by Prima (and sadly it is pretty common) is that the player has had some account at another Prima skin and is not using the same e-mail and screen name for his new account.

I don't play at Prima. Partly because I can't remember what screenname and e-mail I used for my first Prima skin account a couple of years ago (hell, I can't even remember what skin it was, though I suspect it was Gaming Club Poker). And I don't have the patience for dealing with this kind of crap from them.

 

[mitch]

Sweetdenny reckons they should be allowed to keep the winnings because it was won from other players not from the casino.

I think most genuine players would want casinos to be vigilant about other players possibly cheating to gain an advantage over them. Also I would imagine they would want the casino to act in a way which discouraged them and others from acting in this way in the future.

Sweetdenny was caught colluding with another player. This is admitted, of course an explanation is offered which denies cheating, Quel surprise, I bet the casino never expected that!!

Sweetdenny says that he should get his money because he won it from other players. Of course the casino might now be wondering how this money was won was it all down to skill and luck?

Given the facts I would back the casino. They don't have a crystal ball, all they know are the facts before them, which amounted to a clear and serious breach of their T&Cs, which these players freely signed upto, and which gives the casino the right to act as it did.

Mitch

 

[nafanny29]

I don't play at Prima. Partly because I can't remember what screenname and e-mail I used for my first Prima skin account a couple of years ago (hell, I can't even remember what skin it was, though I suspect it was Gaming Club Poker). And I don't have the patience for dealing with this kind of crap from them.

Ill second that, ive had no end of problems with that software, dont even play on bet365 poker now because of all the horror stories ive read about Prima

 

[Vesuvio]

Ill second that, ive had no end of problems with that software, dont even play on bet365 poker now because of all the horror stories ive read about Prima

The problem is most of the network have the same "them" & "us" attitude as the MG casinos (not suprising as most of them are MG casinos!), whereas the pure poker sites are much more relaxed and know they don't need to beat their players to make money. In fact treating them well should increase the rake.

By the way, I've seen the future and it's a completely weird hybrid of the poker software and multi-player BJ & slots: Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) I think someone got carried away at an MG brainstorming session

 

[sweetdenny]

Fao Mitch

Have to totally disagree if the casino think i won the money by cheating then why not go through my hand historys and check. Sevens sultans confirmed i won it fair and square having won a mtt i could hardly have cheated here and the fact is the majority of players do not think a casino should keep money that is not thiers if it was gotten illegally return it to the players but they cant as i won it fair and square. I suppose you think if someone robs a bank and the police catch them the police should keep the money not the bank. The casino has no right to keep it and can give no valid reason to do so hence the line its dissapeared into cyber space and you wont see it again. If they think a fraud has taken place they should re imburse whoever the fraud took place against the fact that this is not happening shows no fraud took place anyone with an ounce of common sense can see i made a mistake not committed fraud.

 

[Petunia]

* NOW, maybe it is just the bleached roots finally rotting, but I am totally confused as I thought you LOST all the money to your friend?

"Have to totally disagree if the casino think i won the money by cheating then why not go through my hand historys and check. "

The 'fraud' was done by purposefully loosing money (chipdumping) and then going and admitting it too ... agreeing a) that you did this and b) that you went against the T&c's!

Again, at best, you should only get your deposit back. Gosh it is difficult to read anything you write, but it is getting a little better! **

 

[chuchu59]

As other posters have written,you admitted to chipdumping. Maybe the best way out is a SWEET DENY. Well,maybe its too late,I suppose.

 

[sweetdenny]

To clear up

I deposited money into seven sultans then won over 1000 dollars by playing a mtt and tables on my own i then lost this money to my friend. For the record the terms and conditions DO NOT STATE CHIPDUMPING is wrong. So could you please read the conditions before saying i broke a rule that wasnt there. I have been brought up that honesty is the best policy this is clearly not the case when dealing with online casinos. Sandy Koor had decided we were not going to get our money back before prima had investigated there is no way to even find out if prima even looked into the case as only site operators can contact them this is a complete farce.

 

[Mart]

The 'fraud' was done by purposefully loosing money (chipdumping) and then going and admitting it too ... agreeing a) that you did this and b) that you went against the T&c's!

Considering that on many sites you can transfer money between different accounts, and that there is nothing on 7 sultans' site even mentioning chip dumping, let alone banning it, I am struggling to see how so many of you are siding with the casino here. There was no 'fraud'. Chip dumping heads up is a victimless crime. And if it's not in the T&C's then it isn't against them.

Possibly there is some other fraud associated with this case. I don't know, but on the face on the evidence we have I can't see how the casino can justify not paying out in full. Is chip dumping a crime worthy of a $1000 fine? What if the transfer had been for $10,000, or $100,000?

 

[sweetdenny]

TY Mart

Finally mart soemone who can see the case for what it is if only you worked for piggs peak there is no other fraud associated with this case. Like you i could not understand why so many people though the casino was within their right to take it as you say if i could have transferred it like on pokerstars i would have done but this facility is not available so i did it by loosing it directly to him. The fact that the CSR Sandy Koor who is a member of this board has failed to pop in a comment is because there is no justification in this i can only assume the majority of the people who have commented on the casinos side do not play a lot of poker online. As if they did they would know that poker is a community game and loans between friends and associates happen a lot in poker online and offline or at least thats what i have found. My friend and i often loan each other money whilst checks are waiting to clear from casinos etc which was the case here he sent me money on pokerstars the week before and i was repaying him the quickest and simplest way i thought. I have not and will not cheat or collude against other players as i can win without this and it ruins the game that is why i am so frustrated over this and struggling to forget it after 6 month this is the only bad experience i have had online so i am hoping to get it resolved so i can wholly trust online poker again.

 

[trade]

Sweetdenny, I am sorry for what happened to you and I do believe that you made an honest and unfortunate mistake. Why not try posting in the poker table forum here. Chatmaster, who is a forum member and responsible for setting up the casinomeister freerolls at Piggs Peak is a frequent visitor, and a very approachable and helpful person. Good luck. I hope you get this sorted out!
ps.. you can also try to private message him, I am sure you will get a reply one way or the other!

 

[mitch]

I have not and will not cheat or collude against other players as i can win without this .

Glad to hear it.

Perhaps you would like to tell us what you and your friends players names are, then, when they both appear on a table we are playing we can decide whether to continue playing or not.
Personally you would not see me for dust. Perhaps some of your supporters would like to confirm they would have absolutely no qualms about playing the table.

Mitch

 

[sweetdenny]

New thread

I have started a new thread under the poker section and hopefully chatmaster will review this and hopefully answer some of the questions. My poker alias is sweetdenny and my friends is pokerjock007, however we are both now locked out of the prima network over this so you wont see us there and you wouldnt have seen us at the same table anyway as i dont like winning friends money and it also could lead to accusations of collusion. I play at Pokerstars, Victor Chandler Poker,Ladbrokes poker all under same name where i have never had any problems with my accounts all held for several years with substantial deposits and withdrawals going through them. This was one of the few times i have tried Prima as have been warned by other not to trust them but i failed to heed the warnings and have been burnt but thankfully my deposit was less than 50 dollars so i am not majorly out of pocket but this instance has cost Prima myself and many others as customers.

 

[mitch]

Sweetdenny

You have got me convinced. I think you are probably genuine.

But you know what, I still would not want to play on the same table as you as I would rather be safe rather than sorry in my internet play, being somewhat conservative in my play.

I am sorry if you find this insulting but it is a consequence of your own actions, which was forseeable when you pursued this very dangerous strategy of transfering money.

I hope you at least get your deposit back.

Mitch

 

[sweetdenny]

poker333 chatmaster

It has been suggested that i start a new thread under this heading i have also posted under poker table heading but got no responce there but under casino tab got 4 pages of responses. I have also messged chatmaster direct so am awaiting a repsose. Ok ill start with the facts, firstly i deposited into Seven Sultans casino and won over 1000 bucks at this point i will add that Sevens Sultans are completely happy about how i won this money and have stated that my account is in perfect order. I then decided stupidly to just lose this money to my friend on poker333 as i was due him money. Poker333 then locked his account when he tried to cash out this money. After telling the full facts to Sandy Koor at Poker333 we were told we would never see the money and when asked what had happened to it were told that it had dissapeared into cyber space. The members of this board have raised a few points that could do with an answer from poker333 (1) How is it acceptable to tell a customer the money has dissapeared into cyber space this is a very poor responce to a valid question. (2) How can the casino justify keeping the money that has never belonged to them the money should be returned to who it belonged to at the very least. (3) How come the deposits have not been returned as is standard with any other casinos. (4) The reason given for the account closures is that rules were broken namely chip dumping but no where in Poker333 Seven Sultans or Primas terms and conditions is chipdumping mentioned (myself and other board members have checked this) yet this is the only reason given. I would appreciate it if yourself Chatmaster or another member of Poker333 team could possibly review this case the account id is pokerjock007 or at the very least answer the questions raised by the forum members.

 

[Chatmaster]

Hi Sweetdenny

I will respond to your other thread, as you have requested.

 

[Chatmaster]

Hi Sweetdenny

Thanks for the PM to notify me of your post. I really appreciate that. After reading your previous posts, I would like to clear up a few things.

I am not Sandy Koor, Sandy is the Poker Manager of Poker333 and one of the greatest people I know. He is a very fair person but also, he doesn't beat around the bush, he says it as it is. I am not even part of the Poker department and head up a different department totally unrelated. I am however a poker freak and love chatting away on forums. I also enjoy assisting players if they have issues and had a number of successes on doing that,... so that is how I fit in the picture.

With regards to Bryan. If there is one person in this industry that can be fully trusted, it is him. He doesn't care what a casino or poker room think of him and will never pull out of a situation for a reason of money. The fact that I sponsored a poker tournament on this forum, was nor our or his idea, it came from someone else in this forum and I offered to do this. The intention was to have fun and that is still the intention. There has never been any other reason for this. Please apologies to Bryan for your very stupid remark, he definitely earned this.

There are a couple of things that are totally unacceptable when it comes to online poker. Chip dumping and multiple aliases are two of them. This is a very serious issue and if you and your friend are guilty of one or both of these activities you can be sure that your account will be locked and the money confiscated. Do I need to explain this more??? Read the rules in the software! It is specifically mentioned and has been since the beginning a couple of years ago.

Here we go, some quotes from the rules...

Alias

An Alias is the name that Players in the Multi-Player environment know each other by.

The following rules apply:

* Players cannot have multiple Aliases. Each Player has only one Alias across all Poker Rooms on the Prima Poker Network.
* No offensive Aliases are permitted. If you select an Alias that is considered offensive, your Alias is rejected, and you must select another Alias.
* Players cannot change their Alias.

Chip Dumping

Chip dumping is not allowed, and may result in the following:

* Players being disqualified and removed from the game.

* Players forfeiting all buy-in amounts.

* Players being permanently banned from the Multi-Player Casino.

With regards, to your complaint. I have checked it with CFC. It is clear to me that CFC has put allot of thought into their actions. The total amount you have dumped to Pokerjock007 was $1947. This has happened in total 3 times from 22 Nov to 18 Dec. Pokerjock007 also made use of a second alias, Blackpig. This by itself place your friend in a very bad position. We have been involved in many cases of fraud and money laundering, and although it is possible that your intentions was pure in your mind, I have no doubt that it was a clear breach of the rules of all our poker rooms. This you can access in our software under rules.

 

[Chatmaster]

You can read my response here, https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/search

 

[The Dude]

...
PS: I think Bryan might be 'out of the office' at the moment - I haven't seen a post by him for days...?

Yep, this was announced a number of times.

Sweetdenny, how many times do you need to do be told that "chip-dumping" is prohibited. I don't give a flying rat's ass what pokerroom it's done at, wrong is wrong.

To insinuate that I am on the take because this happened at a poker room that is listed here and has Casinomeister free rolls is diluted thinking on your part. If this happened at "rogue-ass-pokerroom.com" it would still be wrong, and I wouldn't bother with it as well.

What you did was wrong - you knew it was wrong - you got caught - get over it. Please don't waste my time or band width with this crap. Thank you.

 

[jamiester]

geez

geez, Bryan, don't sugar coat it!!

 

[Petunia]

** Welcome back Bryan! heheh **

 

[Vesuvio]

Do I need to explain this more??? Read the rules in the software! It is specifically mentioned and has been since the beginning a couple of years ago.

Here we go, some quotes from the rules...

As a preface - Sweetdenny, I think you went about this completely the wrong way. Coming out all guns blazing and questioning Casinomeister isn't a great plan when you've done something that I'm sure you're aware is generally frowned upon by on-line poker rooms. I know other people have done ok with Prima poker rooms with more of a reputation to lose (like Ladbrokes or Poker365) - being suitably apologetic or mentioning that you'll take your complaint to other online forums/watchdogs (Casinomeister isn't the ideal one for poker) can work. Understandably most players are shocked that a poker site thinks it can confiscate all funds in a situation like this where the site has no claim to the money - and the sites are fearful of scaring off a large number of potential players.

Anyway, re: Chatmaster's comments above - I think if this is the basis on which Poker333 is claiming the money you absolutely should pay the player and make alterations to your website. As it stands there doesn't seem to be any mention of "chip dumping" on the website. I'd submit that these are the only t&cs you can assume your players will read (though even then most won't). To get to the rules you mention while in the software you have to click on "help", then "rules", then "standard games". I'm not sure about anyone else, but I almost never click on "help" within software unless I don't know how the actual software works. I certainly wouldn't click there expecting to find the sort of small print included in terms and conditions on websites.

I think in this case you should honour payment to the player - if you take a small cut to cover your expenses or banking fees that strikes me as acceptable. If you're going to go to the drastic length of confiscating all funds from "chip dumping" then you'd better first make it very clear in bold lettering on your website that that's your intention.

 

[Annorax]

Hi Sweetdenny

Thanks for the PM to notify me of your post. I really appreciate that. After reading your previous posts, I would like to clear up a few things.

I am not Sandy Koor, Sandy is the Poker Manager of Poker333 and one of the greatest people I know. He is a very fair person but also, he doesn't beat around the bush, he says it as it is. I am not even part of the Poker department and head up a different department totally unrelated. I am however a poker freak and love chatting away on forums. I also enjoy assisting players if they have issues and had a number of successes on doing that,... so that is how I fit in the picture.

With regards to Bryan. If there is one person in this industry that can be fully trusted, it is him. He doesn't care what a casino or poker room think of him and will never pull out of a situation for a reason of money. The fact that I sponsored a poker tournament on this forum, was nor our or his idea, it came from someone else in this forum and I offered to do this. The intention was to have fun and that is still the intention. There has never been any other reason for this. Please apologies to Bryan for your very stupid remark, he definitely earned this.

There are a couple of things that are totally unacceptable when it comes to online poker. Chip dumping and multiple aliases are two of them. This is a very serious issue and if you and your friend are guilty of one or both of these activities you can be sure that your account will be locked and the money confiscated. Do I need to explain this more??? Read the rules in the software! It is specifically mentioned and has been since the beginning a couple of years ago.

Here we go, some quotes from the rules...



With regards, to your complaint. I have checked it with CFC. It is clear to me that CFC has put allot of thought into their actions. The total amount you have dumped to Pokerjock007 was $1947. This has happened in total 3 times from 22 Nov to 18 Dec. Pokerjock007 also made use of a second alias, Blackpig. This by itself place your friend in a very bad position. We have been involved in many cases of fraud and money laundering, and although it is possible that your intentions was pure in your mind, I have no doubt that it was a clear breach of the rules of all our poker rooms. This you can access in our software under rules.

Okay, so you've established that Sweetdenny's friend is a cheater, and that Sweetdenny is at best an accidental accomplice to the cheating. Sweetdenny also pointed out in their other thread that the original deposit amount was negligible. All of the money dumped has been established (I think) to have been won by Sweetdenny legitimately. Since this money came from either Sweetdenny or other players on the Prima network and NOT Poker333, who gets to keep it?

Since it wouldn't make too much sense to start returning buyins to the players Sweetdenny busted in the MTT or the ring game players he/she won money from, who gets it? Does this money end up padding Poker333's bottom line? Does it get donated to some charity? Does it disappear into some Prima account, never to be seen again? Confiscating funds without accountability can make a poker room look very bad in the eyes of the gambling community.

One thing that might go over well with the players would be to do a monthly $1+0 or some similar low buyin tourney, with all of the money confiscated from cheaters and not redistributed back to the affected/cheated players in the previous month added to the prize pool. This might help in establishing that the poker rooms really are keeping players' best interests, and not their own profit margins, in line when banning cheaters and confiscating funds.

Thank you for your time.

[/rant]

 

[bjking]

One thing needs to be cleared up here. Did the chip dumping take place in a tournament with more than two players? If so this is cheating and the players should be banned and the winnings given to charity (not used for free roll tournaments, the poker rooks can fund these themselves). If the chips were dumped in a one on one tournament then i don't see the problem. The poker room gets their rake and the players can move the money. Seems a strange way to pay a debt but each to their own.
If the players were moving money between just the two of the the money should be returned. Don't say your stopping money laundering by stealing their money. People don't launder money at $2000 a time online where there are records and they have to make deposits by credit cards and other reputable means.

 

[Chatmaster]

Thanks for your replies.

I want to ask a question. When you stand on a line, on what side of the line are you? Or rather, if there is a line between wrong or right and you stand dead on the line, are you wrong or right if a piece of your heel is in the Wrong part and a piece of your toe is in the right part. In my world ... The moment you have a piece in the wrong it is over, you are not right any more.

There is no if's or but's here, no standing on a thin line! You are either in the wrong or in the right. If you dumped chips and it is against the house rules that money is confiscated BY PRIMA. The rules do not say "if this" or "but that" it is gone! WHY on earth do you use a poker room that specifically states that they do not allow this .... then use them for your bank transactions? Come on! This is crazy, there is no ifs or but's, it is against the rules and that's is it. Nothing needs to be cleared up here, bjking! What he did is completely illegal end of story. Yeeezzzzz why do you play poker online? To do your banking? I am sorry actually it is not funny, I would hate to play with a bunch of chip dumpers. The rules are displayed in the room openly for everyone to read and it says perfectly clear what will happen if you do make yourself guilty of chip dumping.

Vesuvio, with regards to your remarks, I have to agree with you, we can display these rules on our website and be much more informative on this regard. I have already instructed the poker team to update their website. Thanks for this comments you have been very helpful.

 

[bjking]

Keep your hair on chatmaster.

Who has he harmed if the money was transfered on a one on one table?
Who are you to just take his money and keep it?

I love the way you guys think your above your customers and can just do what you want.
$1900 might buy a house in SA but trust me it is not worth it to get into money laundering for under 2k in the UK. Its not illegal either.


Sweetdenny you better be legit or I'm going to look like a right tit.

 

[Vesuvio]

What he did is completely illegal end of story... I am sorry actually it is not funny, I would hate to play with a bunch of chip dumpers. The rules are displayed in the room openly for everyone to read and it says perfectly clear what will happen if you do make yourself guilty of chip dumping.

Vesuvio, with regards to your remarks, I have to agree with you, we can display these rules on our website and be much more informative on this regard. I have already instructed the poker team to update their website. Thanks for this comments you have been very helpful.

Chatmaster -
1) It's not illegal - it may be against your rules
2) I've got no problem with playing with a "chip dumper", as long as it's being done on a private table between two consenting players. Why should that affect me in the slightest? Obviously I'm against collusion when other players are on the table, but that's not the issue here.
3) If you appreciated my comments then you must see that at the moment it's not so "perfectly clear" to a player that chip dumping is banned - in fact if a player wasn't sure and went to check in the obvious place they'd conclude that it was allowed. If you make it abundantly clear in future then perhaps you can confiscate funds (but let us know what you do with these unearned bonuses & give us a convincing reason you should keep them) - in this case you should pay.

 

[samchopra]

To Chatmaster

So if you are not refunding his money, what exactly are you doing with his money?

 

[The Dude]

Ok, let's chill everyone.

This is a Prima Poker issue - not poker333.com's. The player broke Prima Pokers rules flat out. The winnings were confiscated - end of story.

It is clear that chip dumping is not tolerated. What is so difficult to understand about that? I guess we should see if there are instances where perhaps it's ok under certain circumstances?? C'mon - be real.

 

[The Dude]

admin note

I've merged two threads since there was some cross posting going on. You may want to reread the thread to get back on track. Sorry for the confusion - but cross posting is not a good thing. Thanks!

 

[Chatmaster]

Keep your hair on chatmaster.

OK

Who has he harmed if the money was transfered on a one on one table?

The entire online multiplayer gambling industry! It will be a disaster if we allow chip dumping. This industry will get more bad publicity than Robert Mugabe.

I love the way you guys think your above your customers and can just do what you want.

This hurts. I have never seen our poker room as being part of the scummy outfits that have this attitude. I for one definately are not part of the scummy outfits. Open your eyes and see what i am saying.

$1900 might buy a house in SA but trust me it is not worth it to get into money laundering for under 2k in the UK. Its not illegal either.

This is not Zimbabwe bjking it is SA, big difference!!! Real Estate here is damn expensive. I still appreciate your sense of humour though.

Finally. I have no idea what Prima does with the money.

 

[sillybilly]

Genocide=chipdumping

Robert mugabe appropriated peoples farms, is destroying peoples houses and livelihoods and has murdered 100s of 1000s of people who are of a different tribe. I hardly think that chip dumping between 2 people on their own is on a par with that.
Chatmaster, get some perspective. Online gaming is all about the $$$.
Poker rooms get their rake, and as long as there is protection from collusion to win money from other people, what is the problem? It is not illegal to lose to someone at poker. In the UK gambling debts are not even enforceable.


WHY DO YOUR ORGANISATION HAVE A RIGHT TO THIS MONEY.

its not yours. you have not earned it or won it. The rake is your just reward for offering a service. Why cant you be content with that.