Primapoker funds confiscations (Lucky Nugget Poker and Poker333)

[Casinomeister]

Robert mugabe appropriated peoples farms, is destroying peoples houses and livelihoods and has murdered 100s of 1000s of people who are of a different tribe. I hardly think that chip dumping between 2 people on their own is on a par with that.
Chatmaster, get some perspective. Online gaming is all about the $$$.
Poker rooms get their rake, and as long as there is protection from collusion to win money from other people, what is the problem? It is not illegal to lose to someone at poker. In the UK gambling debts are not even enforceable.


WHY DO YOUR ORGANISATION HAVE A RIGHT TO THIS MONEY.

its not yours. you have not earned it or won it. The rake is your just reward for offering a service. Why cant you be content with that.

I don't think Chatmaster has much to do with this. It's Prima Poker.

Chip dumping is a form of collusion and is considered fraudulant play. These guys who were caught would be lucky to get their deposits back.

Deposit $100. Commit fraud. Don't get the deposit back = TS.
or
Deposit $100. Commit fraud. Get the deposit back = There is a god.

Try doing something like this in Vegas and see what happens. You'd be lucky to walk out with all of your bones in the right place.

 

[sillybilly]

Who is being defrauded?
Players 1 and 2, play on their own and effectively transfer money between themselves.

Prima takes rake from a table that would otherwise be empty

Prima then confiscates all the money including deposits.

The winnings won fair and square at piggs peak would also count as deposits wouldnt they?

Not a bad bit of business, stick the terms somewhere obscure, then jump in with both feet and take $1900.

 

[Casinomeister]

Who is being defrauded?
Players 1 and 2, play on their own and effectively transfer money between themselves.

Prima takes rake from a table that would otherwise be empty

Prima then confiscates all the money including deposits.

The winnings won fair and square at piggs peak would also count as deposits wouldnt they?

Not a bad bit of business, stick the terms somewhere obscure, then jump in with both feet and take $1900.

"Chip dumping" is fraudulent play - it's not real honest to goodness card action.

i was due my friend money so decided quickest way to repay him was to just lose it directly to him from my account so we both sat at a table...

Poker rooms are not set up to be your private fund transfer point. That could be considered money laundering, and this is something "the man" will come down on you hard for.

If these players "owed" each other money, there are other ways to make these transfers. You can make peer-to-peer transfers in Neteller, you can write someone a check or send a wire transfer. Online Poker rooms are not there for this purpose.

stick the terms somewhere obscure

This player was fully aware that this was fraudulent. He playes a number of poker rooms - duh, like this is new??

You may feel that since they had their own table it was okay. It is still fraud no matter how you look at it. It's like saying she's only a little bit pregnant. Either you is or you ain't.

 

[Petunia]

Who is being defrauded?
Players 1 and 2, play on their own and effectively transfer money between themselves. .

**THis just brings me right back to the point I made ... because you did this, 'amongst friends' and nobody got 'hurt' the casino should 'overrule' their original t&c's just for them.

I believe the rules are the rules. Period. If you break'em and get away with it... good for you (after all,some rules ARE to be tested AND broken) but when you get caught... Even breaking rules without intention to do 'harm' is still breaking the rules! Should casinos start making up rules as they please, based on their own emotional judgment, time of day, mood, etc... there'd be HAVOCK !! **

 

[Vesuvio]

This is a Prima Poker issue - not poker333.com's. The player broke Prima Pokers rules flat out. The winnings were confiscated - end of story.

It is clear that chip dumping is not tolerated. What is so difficult to understand about that? I guess we should see if there are instances where perhaps it's ok under certain circumstances?? C'mon - be real.

This is Poker333.com's issue, though. The player signed up through them & can expect to find anything relevant to his play on their site. As it is chip dumping isn't mentioned.

To find anything about it you have to decide to click the help button in the software, then go to "rules", then "standard games".

Even if for some reason you ignore the website and do that you still get a rule with the provisos that it "may" result in losing buy-in amounts. Together with a note: "These decisions are at the discretion of the House". I'm not sure who the "house" is in this case, but it's clearly possible not to decide to confiscate all of a players funds - in the few cases I've heard of this the player has received their funds back after a bit of a struggle. Unless Poker333.com's website specifically bans this behaviour they should pay up.

Chip dumping isn't some great evil. Some poker sites encourage open transfers between members - others turn a blind eye to chip dumping as they're happy for money to keep circulating as long as they get their rake. The "money laundering" justification for confiscating funds is a bit far-fetched. It's hardly going to be a criminal's first choice given the checks on deposits, withdrawals and the poker site having a complete record of your play.

 

[Annorax]

This is a Prima Poker issue - not poker333.com's. The player broke Prima Pokers rules flat out. The winnings were confiscated - end of story.

Yes, the funds were confiscated. Yes, Sweetdenny and his friend don't deserve to get their money back. But why should Prima keep this money? They haven't done anything to deserve to keep it. Shouldn't it go elsewhere, like a charity? Seems to me that Prima shouldn't profit excessively from catching cheaters.

 

[Casinomeister]

This is Poker333.com's issue, though. The player signed up through them & can expect to find anything relevant to his play on their site. As it is chip dumping isn't mentioned. .

The exact term "chipdumping" is not mentioned, neither is calliing up your buddy on the phone and sharing information on one's hand mentioned as well. But both sites (Prima and Poker333 - and every Prima Poker room out there)state the following:

However, there is one thing that happens in land casinos that some cheaters do try to get away with on line: they try to collude, that is, share information and play their hands in order to help each other win. This is also known as playing partners.

You are splitting hairs here. This "chip dumping" is a form of collussion - they are sharing information on helping each other win - no need to go further.

...Chip dumping isn't some great evil. Some poker sites encourage open transfers between members - others turn a blind eye to chip dumping as they're happy for money to keep circulating as long as they get their rake...

Now it sounds like you are making shit up. Which poker room are you referring to?

As far as I'm concerned, this is a dead issue. Chip dumping, no matter how you look at it is a form of collusion. The players knew it was wrong when they did it, they got caught and the poker room exercised its right on confiscating the player's funds.

 

[Casinomeister]

... Shouldn't it go elsewhere, like a charity? Seems to me that Prima shouldn't profit excessively from catching cheaters.

You may have a point - there might be a solution to this.

 

[Vesuvio]

The exact term "chipdumping" is not mentioned, neither is calliing up your buddy on the phone and sharing information on one's hand mentioned as well. But both sites (Prima and Poker333 - and every Prima Poker room out there)state the following:

However, there is one thing that happens in land casinos that some cheaters do try to get away with on line: they try to collude, that is, share information and play their hands in order to help each other win. This is also known as playing partners.

You are splitting hairs here. This "chip dumping" is a form of collussion - they are sharing information on helping each other win - no need to go further.

I don't think I'm the one splitting hairs here. The quote you mention above is clearly referring to something completely different - i.e. players colluding to cheat other players out of money. Of course that's the worst thing about on-line poker and 99.9999% of players will agree with the most drastic measures taken by poker sites to deal with it.

"Chip dumping" isn't cheating anyone. It's just a couple of players wanting to transfer money on a private two-player table. You can't meaningfully say "they are sharing information on helping each other win" - one of them's winning and the other's losing the same amount - only the poker site will make any money on it through their rake.

Now it sounds like you are making shit up. Which poker room are you referring to?

At Paradise Poker players can transfer money between themselves (see 5.06

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). At Party Poker I think you can buy "gift certificates" of poker chips for other players.

I'm not really that into poker so I must admit I've no hard evidence for poker sites "turning a blind eye" to chip dumping, though I think I've read it somewhere, and as it's something that earns them money, keeps players bankrolled and doesn't harm other players I don't think it's too far-fetched an assumption.

 

[caruso]

Whatever the rights or wrongs, the room has no right to keep the money, and the fact that they said it had "disappeared in cyberspace" is most revealing.

The money is not a freebie the casino can snaffle up. It was won from other players, not BY this player FROM the casino. This would be tantamount to stealing from those other players. Since nobody was actually cheated, as was the case with Intercasino a while back, the money cannot be redistributed to the cheated players. It needs to be donated to charity, and there needs to be some kind of audit trail to PROVE the fact.The room CANNOT keep it.

If it were a casino situation in which the money had been ostensibly won FROM the casino, it would be a different matter.

As to the rights or wrongs: I'm very sympathetic to the player. On the face of it, passing money to another player in a heads-up situation does not seem illegal. We're not talking faked documents or multi IDs here. However, if passing money thus is "dumping", and if this is in contravention of the T & C, then so be it.

I would be interested to know why this is considered wrong, though.

 

[Webzcas]

Chatmaster -
1) It's not illegal - it may be against your rules
2) I've got no problem with playing with a "chip dumper", as long as it's being done on a private table between two consenting players. Why should that affect me in the slightest? Obviously I'm against collusion when other players are on the table, but that's not the issue here.
3) If you appreciated my comments then you must see that at the moment it's not so "perfectly clear" to a player that chip dumping is banned - in fact if a player wasn't sure and went to check in the obvious place they'd conclude that it was allowed. If you make it abundantly clear in future then perhaps you can confiscate funds (but let us know what you do with these unearned bonuses & give us a convincing reason you should keep them) - in this case you should pay.

Chipdumping is wrong period and is against the rules. Furthermore for Poker Rooms to turn a blind eye to it ( Chipdumping ), allowing chipdumping could rightly bring accusations against the poker room in aiding and abetting and therefore assisting money laundering.

Those that do practice chipdumping should not cry foul when they get caught red handed.

 

[Webzcas]

"Chip dumping" isn't cheating anyone. It's just a couple of players wanting to transfer money on a private two-player table. You can't meaningfully say "they are sharing information on helping each other win" - one of them's winning and the other's losing the same amount - only the poker site will make any money on it through their rake.

Ok let me try and put this into layman terms a bit for you:

1) Monies obtained fraudlently via stolen credit card details etc, can and do find a way to be deposited into online poker rooms and poker networks. ( Although this is small, this does happen, hence all casinos and poker rooms have SECURITY DEPARTMENTS - and you all at some time have been inconvenienced to provide proof of identity before cashing out at some time or other as a result. - This is the casino/poker portal protecting itself and more importantly it's customers i.e YOU )

2) The normal practice is to dump these monies via way of private table chip dumping to an associate with a real bona fida legit card.

3) The associate then cashes out the dumped winnings either to Neteller, card or other payment portal

4) The poker room then a week or several days later has a charge back for the stolen funds issued against it.

5) The poker room ends up swallowing the cost of the fraudlent player.

The above is one of the main reasons chip dumping is not allowed.

Besides the fact it can be classed as collusion and could warrant accusations of aiding and abetting money laundering against the poker room if chip dumping was facilitated and allowed on an online poker site.

I have no sympathy for any player that is caught chip dumping.

 

[Vesuvio]

Ok let me try and put this into layman terms a bit for you:

Cheers

I'll grant you that seems a fair reason for poker sites to be concerned about chip dumping. However, it can also be done for perfectly innocent reasons - simply to transfer some money quickly. Some sites obviously see this as a feature players appreciate as they have procedures in place to allow it.

There's nothing morally wrong about chip dumping as such, and if in this case the players haven't engaged in credit card (or any other type of) fraud they should still be paid. As I've said before - if Poker333 had made it abundantly clear on their website that chip dumping wasn't allowed I'd accept it (though I still don't think they deserve to keep the funds). As it is their website doesn't mention it and the rules are hidden away in the software itself. If a player checked they'd probably conclude that chip dumping was fine.

p.s. the poker333 review on your website's a bit OTT, isn't it? (and odd that you're the site admin for a forum where Chatmaster's the moderator)

 

[Webzcas]

Cheers

I'll grant you that seems a fair reason for poker sites to be concerned about chip dumping. However, it can also be done for perfectly innocent reasons - simply to transfer some money quickly. Some sites obviously see this as a feature players appreciate as they have procedures in place to allow it.

A poker site is not a bank full stop. Prima does not allow chip dumping. If you break the rules expect to get your fingers burnt when caught.

p.s. the poker333 review on your website's a bit OTT, isn't it? (and odd that you're the site admin for a forum where Chatmaster's the moderator

I actually rate Poker333 - It is my poker room of choice. You may also notice that I have a Fortune Affiliates representative who is also a moderator on my forum. The reason Chatmaster and AndrewM are moderators is because they are both representatives of the casinos I promote and as such have their own forums.

However that said, if Poker333 had actually done anything wrong I would be the first to point the finger at them.

Nice try to defend your defence of chip dumping by making an attack on me.

 

[Vesuvio]

Prima does not allow chip dumping. If you break the rules expect to get your fingers burnt when caught.

This needs to be made clear on the individual websites. If it's not they can't justify confiscating a player's funds (something that's hard to justify in any case - some less drastic approach would make more sense).

I actually rate Poker333 - It is my poker room of choice.

Forgive me for not setting huge store by your poker reviews. Why only have a few Prima sites? Few people who know much about poker would consider those the best places to play.

Nice try to defend your defence of chip dumping by making an attack on me.

Not really an attack - I was just curious what might motivate your aggressive and rather patronising posts.

 

[Casinomeister]

Ok guys, let's chill. Thanks!

 

[bjking]

Ok I think we all now understand why these players shouldn't chip dump. However It was not clearly explained in the T&C that if the players took part in chip dumping that they would loose all their money.

I think the poker site should hold on to the money for 2 months to make sure that the credit card was legit and if there is no charge back then on this occasion the poker site should refund the players and make it clear on their site what they will do if players chip dump.

 

[Webzcas]

Not really an attack - I was just curious what might motivate your aggressive and rather patronising posts.

Apologies if I came across aggressive, it's not in my nature and was not intended. Sorry if you saw it that way. As for being patronising, I apologise as well - after reading the several pages of this thread it seemed to me that many were missing the point as to why chipdumping is not allowed.

As for what happens to the confiscated funds, hmm it will be interesting to hear what Prima have to say about this as it is ultimately their network. I am guessing though with a chipdumping case they will likely be carrying out security checks to ensure the amount involved did not come from fraudulent activities.

Finally I would imagine that most who have played on the prima network for a while would also know that chip dumping is a 'no no'.

Ok guys, let's chill. Thanks!

Sorry, will do

 

[Vesuvio]

Ok, chill pills taken

I'm not attacking Poker333 in particular, but I simply don't think you can lightly confiscate players' funds - & certainly not if you can't show they were fraudulently obtained.

 

[Petunia]

**Agreed Vesuvio - also the statement that "it dissappeared in cyberspace" is NOT QUITE sitting well either!! **

 

[sweetdenny]

My response

Hi all ive been checking my thread all weekend with no replies then didnt check yesterday and it has all kicked off. I must address a few points raised here the frist point is someone mentioned they could hold the money for a couple months to check that all deposits were ok well its been 6 month now and all my deposits have gone through ok. Next point someone said its primas problem now not poker333 well customers can only contact prima via the skin in this case poker333 so it still remains there problem. The statement its dissapeared into cyber space still remains an issue sandy koor may be to the point but this doesent excuse this statement. I never found where this statement says chipdumping is banned by prima i read poker333 T+C and found nothing someone says its under help well im locked out my account and cant check this. Chatmaster you say you have no idea where the confiscated money goes well as i cant contact prima maybe you could and find out what happens to it. Casinomeister you ask what rooms allow chipdumping well pokerstars one of the biggest rooms allows transfers direct to players accounts and ladbrokes turns a blind eye to it i have a hand number and date and time of this happening between actionjack (one of most well known players on ladbrokes ) and another player doing the exact same thing as me and my friend. You can feel free to test ladbrokes and see if they confiscate both these players money i think not. You say this is clear chipdumping and i should just let it go well if it was blatent cheating i would just let it go. I MADE A MISTAKE thats all no malice no fraud no playing partners nothing i lost to him directly on a table no one else involved others can see this as a mistake and not a great fraud why cant you . Chatmaster you state my friends account has two aliases i will ask him about this and report back if you are saying his account is dodgy in any way return my money to my account which Sevens Sultans say is in perfect order and i will cash it out there has been a lot of points rasied here which still remain unanswered.

 

[realwtfsup]

Chimp dumping is wrong.

Just an opinion from a onine poker player.

First seize the funds. Then investigate both of the players carefully. Go through there play records aad see if any of the funds wre gained by defrauding other players. This is a must to into for any poker site for myself to have any confidence in it.

If they find none and it is an honest mistake. Well that is a difficult situation. I would understand a poker room giving the player a break ONE time.

 

[trade]

Hi all ive been checking my thread all weekend with no replies then didnt check yesterday and it has all kicked off. I must address a few points raised here the frist point is someone mentioned they could hold the money for a couple months to check that all deposits were ok well its been 6 month now and all my deposits have gone through ok. Next point someone said its primas problem now not poker333 well customers can only contact prima via the skin in this case poker333 so it still remains there problem. The statement its dissapeared into cyber space still remains an issue sandy koor may be to the point but this doesent excuse this statement. I never found where this statement says chipdumping is banned by prima i read poker333 T+C and found nothing someone says its under help well im locked out my account and cant check this. Chatmaster you say you have no idea where the confiscated money goes well as i cant contact prima maybe you could and find out what happens to it. Casinomeister you ask what rooms allow chipdumping well pokerstars one of the biggest rooms allows transfers direct to players accounts and ladbrokes turns a blind eye to it i have a hand number and date and time of this happening between actionjack (one of most well known players on ladbrokes ) and another player doing the exact same thing as me and my friend. You can feel free to test ladbrokes and see if they confiscate both these players money i think not. You say this is clear chipdumping and i should just let it go well if it was blatent cheating i would just let it go. I MADE A MISTAKE thats all no malice no fraud no playing partners nothing i lost to him directly on a table no one else involved others can see this as a mistake and not a great fraud why cant you . Chatmaster you state my friends account has two aliases i will ask him about this and report back if you are saying his account is dodgy in any way return my money to my account which Sevens Sultans say is in perfect order and i will cash it out there has been a lot of points rasied here which still remain unanswered.

I believe and side with you sweetdenny. I don't think any malicious thing happened here. Naive.. yes. Exceptions should be examined, considered, counselled, reviewed and made. Lord knows there are enough checks and balances made if there is anything in doubt of dubious play at casinos (see bonus problem threads!) They played at a private table, no one else was involved! In this, which I believe is extraodinary circumstances.. the guy didn't cheat.. he made a bad choice. The casino should, in my opinion, investigate, counsel and err on the side of the player, rap their hands, warn them never to do this again and state clearly on their website or in a mass mailing that transferring of chips or "chip dumping" is not allowed. The casino profitted from them on the rake none the less. We don't have to do the "moral high ground" here casinos! Give it a personal touch.. if people didn't put their trust in you in the immense and precarious cyberland, you wouldn't be in business.. give them the same benefit of the doubt!!

 

[sweetdenny]

Confused as hell

I have just received the most odd private message from chatmaster.. In it he has stated two points that i cant understand (1) "but it is a case where the poker room is at blame for what Prima has done and done rightly so." and (2)" I openly admitted that we have been at fault in the sense that we do have to put those rules on our website " so in these two statements he i stelling me that the casino is taking the blame fro it yet he goes on to say he cannot help me as my friend has two alisases and therefore looks guilty. I have spoken to my friend and the reason that he has two alises is he sighned up at royal vegas and poker333 and made two names not realising that you can only have one as the skins are linked this is a common mistake and one that keeps coming up on this board as a reason casinos dont pay up. The only reason that i have been given through all this is that it is against the rules that i "chipdumped" no other faults have been found with my accounts as im sure they have went through with a fine tooth comb in the 6 month since this happened . The casino via chatmaster has admitted they were at fault for not providing the rules on there website and that the poker room is to blame for having the account locked. How can they not now pay me my winnings whenever a casino has admitted they are to blame on this site they have re imbursed the player why is this not happening here i just cannot understand. I have convinced numerous members of the forum i am genuine i have convinced chatmaster i am not a fraudster as he has stated the casino are to blame the jury is still out if casinomeister believes me or not all these people can see the case for what it is why cant my winnings be refunded or at least prima to re-investigate the case.

 

[Chatmaster]

Mmmmm

What a game are you playing? This message was recieved by you a day ago, but 30 minutes ago I sent you a message explaining to you that you understood wrong. What I did say is that the rules have been in the software all along. It seems you still havent found it it seems!

Now suddenly you change my words!!!

Here is a direct quote from my sent items

I openly admitted that we have been at fault in the sense that we do have to put those rules on our website as well although we both know that you were aware that it was illegal to chipdump before you did so. I also would have been more than happy to assist you but the fact that you have made yourself guilty of Chipdumping three times and your friend had 2 aliases makes it impossible for me to do that, I know that from experience. It simply makes you look more guilty.

I told you in the PM "I just sent you(really)" that I feel from an online marketing perspective to give players trust in Prima I feel it should be on the website as well. It should also then scare off the frauds.

Final point = The Casino never admited a thing... I speak for myself!