Primapoker funds confiscations (Lucky Nugget Poker and Poker333)

[sweetdenny]

To clear up

I deposited money into seven sultans then won over 1000 dollars by playing a mtt and tables on my own i then lost this money to my friend. For the record the terms and conditions DO NOT STATE CHIPDUMPING is wrong. So could you please read the conditions before saying i broke a rule that wasnt there. I have been brought up that honesty is the best policy this is clearly not the case when dealing with online casinos. Sandy Koor had decided we were not going to get our money back before prima had investigated there is no way to even find out if prima even looked into the case as only site operators can contact them this is a complete farce.

 

[Mart]

The 'fraud' was done by purposefully loosing money (chipdumping) and then going and admitting it too ... agreeing a) that you did this and b) that you went against the T&c's!

Considering that on many sites you can transfer money between different accounts, and that there is nothing on 7 sultans' site even mentioning chip dumping, let alone banning it, I am struggling to see how so many of you are siding with the casino here. There was no 'fraud'. Chip dumping heads up is a victimless crime. And if it's not in the T&C's then it isn't against them.

Possibly there is some other fraud associated with this case. I don't know, but on the face on the evidence we have I can't see how the casino can justify not paying out in full. Is chip dumping a crime worthy of a $1000 fine? What if the transfer had been for $10,000, or $100,000?

 

[sweetdenny]

TY Mart

Finally mart soemone who can see the case for what it is if only you worked for piggs peak there is no other fraud associated with this case. Like you i could not understand why so many people though the casino was within their right to take it as you say if i could have transferred it like on pokerstars i would have done but this facility is not available so i did it by loosing it directly to him. The fact that the CSR Sandy Koor who is a member of this board has failed to pop in a comment is because there is no justification in this i can only assume the majority of the people who have commented on the casinos side do not play a lot of poker online. As if they did they would know that poker is a community game and loans between friends and associates happen a lot in poker online and offline or at least thats what i have found. My friend and i often loan each other money whilst checks are waiting to clear from casinos etc which was the case here he sent me money on pokerstars the week before and i was repaying him the quickest and simplest way i thought. I have not and will not cheat or collude against other players as i can win without this and it ruins the game that is why i am so frustrated over this and struggling to forget it after 6 month this is the only bad experience i have had online so i am hoping to get it resolved so i can wholly trust online poker again.

 

[trade]

Sweetdenny, I am sorry for what happened to you and I do believe that you made an honest and unfortunate mistake. Why not try posting in the poker table forum here. Chatmaster, who is a forum member and responsible for setting up the casinomeister freerolls at Piggs Peak is a frequent visitor, and a very approachable and helpful person. Good luck. I hope you get this sorted out!
ps.. you can also try to private message him, I am sure you will get a reply one way or the other!

 

[mitch]

I have not and will not cheat or collude against other players as i can win without this .

Glad to hear it.

Perhaps you would like to tell us what you and your friends players names are, then, when they both appear on a table we are playing we can decide whether to continue playing or not.
Personally you would not see me for dust. Perhaps some of your supporters would like to confirm they would have absolutely no qualms about playing the table.

Mitch

 

[sweetdenny]

New thread

I have started a new thread under the poker section and hopefully chatmaster will review this and hopefully answer some of the questions. My poker alias is sweetdenny and my friends is pokerjock007, however we are both now locked out of the prima network over this so you wont see us there and you wouldnt have seen us at the same table anyway as i dont like winning friends money and it also could lead to accusations of collusion. I play at Pokerstars, Victor Chandler Poker,Ladbrokes poker all under same name where i have never had any problems with my accounts all held for several years with substantial deposits and withdrawals going through them. This was one of the few times i have tried Prima as have been warned by other not to trust them but i failed to heed the warnings and have been burnt but thankfully my deposit was less than 50 dollars so i am not majorly out of pocket but this instance has cost Prima myself and many others as customers.

 

[mitch]

Sweetdenny

You have got me convinced. I think you are probably genuine.

But you know what, I still would not want to play on the same table as you as I would rather be safe rather than sorry in my internet play, being somewhat conservative in my play.

I am sorry if you find this insulting but it is a consequence of your own actions, which was forseeable when you pursued this very dangerous strategy of transfering money.

I hope you at least get your deposit back.

Mitch

 

[sweetdenny]

poker333 chatmaster

It has been suggested that i start a new thread under this heading i have also posted under poker table heading but got no responce there but under casino tab got 4 pages of responses. I have also messged chatmaster direct so am awaiting a repsose. Ok ill start with the facts, firstly i deposited into Seven Sultans casino and won over 1000 bucks at this point i will add that Sevens Sultans are completely happy about how i won this money and have stated that my account is in perfect order. I then decided stupidly to just lose this money to my friend on poker333 as i was due him money. Poker333 then locked his account when he tried to cash out this money. After telling the full facts to Sandy Koor at Poker333 we were told we would never see the money and when asked what had happened to it were told that it had dissapeared into cyber space. The members of this board have raised a few points that could do with an answer from poker333 (1) How is it acceptable to tell a customer the money has dissapeared into cyber space this is a very poor responce to a valid question. (2) How can the casino justify keeping the money that has never belonged to them the money should be returned to who it belonged to at the very least. (3) How come the deposits have not been returned as is standard with any other casinos. (4) The reason given for the account closures is that rules were broken namely chip dumping but no where in Poker333 Seven Sultans or Primas terms and conditions is chipdumping mentioned (myself and other board members have checked this) yet this is the only reason given. I would appreciate it if yourself Chatmaster or another member of Poker333 team could possibly review this case the account id is pokerjock007 or at the very least answer the questions raised by the forum members.

 

[Chatmaster]

Hi Sweetdenny

I will respond to your other thread, as you have requested.

 

[Chatmaster]

Hi Sweetdenny

Thanks for the PM to notify me of your post. I really appreciate that. After reading your previous posts, I would like to clear up a few things.

I am not Sandy Koor, Sandy is the Poker Manager of Poker333 and one of the greatest people I know. He is a very fair person but also, he doesn't beat around the bush, he says it as it is. I am not even part of the Poker department and head up a different department totally unrelated. I am however a poker freak and love chatting away on forums. I also enjoy assisting players if they have issues and had a number of successes on doing that,... so that is how I fit in the picture.

With regards to Bryan. If there is one person in this industry that can be fully trusted, it is him. He doesn't care what a casino or poker room think of him and will never pull out of a situation for a reason of money. The fact that I sponsored a poker tournament on this forum, was nor our or his idea, it came from someone else in this forum and I offered to do this. The intention was to have fun and that is still the intention. There has never been any other reason for this. Please apologies to Bryan for your very stupid remark, he definitely earned this.

There are a couple of things that are totally unacceptable when it comes to online poker. Chip dumping and multiple aliases are two of them. This is a very serious issue and if you and your friend are guilty of one or both of these activities you can be sure that your account will be locked and the money confiscated. Do I need to explain this more??? Read the rules in the software! It is specifically mentioned and has been since the beginning a couple of years ago.

Here we go, some quotes from the rules...

Alias

An Alias is the name that Players in the Multi-Player environment know each other by.

The following rules apply:

* Players cannot have multiple Aliases. Each Player has only one Alias across all Poker Rooms on the Prima Poker Network.
* No offensive Aliases are permitted. If you select an Alias that is considered offensive, your Alias is rejected, and you must select another Alias.
* Players cannot change their Alias.

Chip Dumping

Chip dumping is not allowed, and may result in the following:

* Players being disqualified and removed from the game.

* Players forfeiting all buy-in amounts.

* Players being permanently banned from the Multi-Player Casino.

With regards, to your complaint. I have checked it with CFC. It is clear to me that CFC has put allot of thought into their actions. The total amount you have dumped to Pokerjock007 was $1947. This has happened in total 3 times from 22 Nov to 18 Dec. Pokerjock007 also made use of a second alias, Blackpig. This by itself place your friend in a very bad position. We have been involved in many cases of fraud and money laundering, and although it is possible that your intentions was pure in your mind, I have no doubt that it was a clear breach of the rules of all our poker rooms. This you can access in our software under rules.

 

[Chatmaster]

You can read my response here, https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/search

 

[Casinomeister]

...
PS: I think Bryan might be 'out of the office' at the moment - I haven't seen a post by him for days...?

Yep, this was announced a number of times.

Sweetdenny, how many times do you need to do be told that "chip-dumping" is prohibited. I don't give a flying rat's ass what pokerroom it's done at, wrong is wrong.

To insinuate that I am on the take because this happened at a poker room that is listed here and has Casinomeister free rolls is diluted thinking on your part. If this happened at "rogue-ass-pokerroom.com" it would still be wrong, and I wouldn't bother with it as well.

What you did was wrong - you knew it was wrong - you got caught - get over it. Please don't waste my time or band width with this crap. Thank you.

 

[jamiester]

geez

geez, Bryan, don't sugar coat it!!

 

[Petunia]

** Welcome back Bryan! heheh **

 

[Vesuvio]

Do I need to explain this more??? Read the rules in the software! It is specifically mentioned and has been since the beginning a couple of years ago.

Here we go, some quotes from the rules...

As a preface - Sweetdenny, I think you went about this completely the wrong way. Coming out all guns blazing and questioning Casinomeister isn't a great plan when you've done something that I'm sure you're aware is generally frowned upon by on-line poker rooms. I know other people have done ok with Prima poker rooms with more of a reputation to lose (like Ladbrokes or Poker365) - being suitably apologetic or mentioning that you'll take your complaint to other online forums/watchdogs (Casinomeister isn't the ideal one for poker) can work. Understandably most players are shocked that a poker site thinks it can confiscate all funds in a situation like this where the site has no claim to the money - and the sites are fearful of scaring off a large number of potential players.

Anyway, re: Chatmaster's comments above - I think if this is the basis on which Poker333 is claiming the money you absolutely should pay the player and make alterations to your website. As it stands there doesn't seem to be any mention of "chip dumping" on the website. I'd submit that these are the only t&cs you can assume your players will read (though even then most won't). To get to the rules you mention while in the software you have to click on "help", then "rules", then "standard games". I'm not sure about anyone else, but I almost never click on "help" within software unless I don't know how the actual software works. I certainly wouldn't click there expecting to find the sort of small print included in terms and conditions on websites.

I think in this case you should honour payment to the player - if you take a small cut to cover your expenses or banking fees that strikes me as acceptable. If you're going to go to the drastic length of confiscating all funds from "chip dumping" then you'd better first make it very clear in bold lettering on your website that that's your intention.

 

[Annorax]

Hi Sweetdenny

Thanks for the PM to notify me of your post. I really appreciate that. After reading your previous posts, I would like to clear up a few things.

I am not Sandy Koor, Sandy is the Poker Manager of Poker333 and one of the greatest people I know. He is a very fair person but also, he doesn't beat around the bush, he says it as it is. I am not even part of the Poker department and head up a different department totally unrelated. I am however a poker freak and love chatting away on forums. I also enjoy assisting players if they have issues and had a number of successes on doing that,... so that is how I fit in the picture.

With regards to Bryan. If there is one person in this industry that can be fully trusted, it is him. He doesn't care what a casino or poker room think of him and will never pull out of a situation for a reason of money. The fact that I sponsored a poker tournament on this forum, was nor our or his idea, it came from someone else in this forum and I offered to do this. The intention was to have fun and that is still the intention. There has never been any other reason for this. Please apologies to Bryan for your very stupid remark, he definitely earned this.

There are a couple of things that are totally unacceptable when it comes to online poker. Chip dumping and multiple aliases are two of them. This is a very serious issue and if you and your friend are guilty of one or both of these activities you can be sure that your account will be locked and the money confiscated. Do I need to explain this more??? Read the rules in the software! It is specifically mentioned and has been since the beginning a couple of years ago.

Here we go, some quotes from the rules...



With regards, to your complaint. I have checked it with CFC. It is clear to me that CFC has put allot of thought into their actions. The total amount you have dumped to Pokerjock007 was $1947. This has happened in total 3 times from 22 Nov to 18 Dec. Pokerjock007 also made use of a second alias, Blackpig. This by itself place your friend in a very bad position. We have been involved in many cases of fraud and money laundering, and although it is possible that your intentions was pure in your mind, I have no doubt that it was a clear breach of the rules of all our poker rooms. This you can access in our software under rules.

Okay, so you've established that Sweetdenny's friend is a cheater, and that Sweetdenny is at best an accidental accomplice to the cheating. Sweetdenny also pointed out in their other thread that the original deposit amount was negligible. All of the money dumped has been established (I think) to have been won by Sweetdenny legitimately. Since this money came from either Sweetdenny or other players on the Prima network and NOT Poker333, who gets to keep it?

Since it wouldn't make too much sense to start returning buyins to the players Sweetdenny busted in the MTT or the ring game players he/she won money from, who gets it? Does this money end up padding Poker333's bottom line? Does it get donated to some charity? Does it disappear into some Prima account, never to be seen again? Confiscating funds without accountability can make a poker room look very bad in the eyes of the gambling community.

One thing that might go over well with the players would be to do a monthly $1+0 or some similar low buyin tourney, with all of the money confiscated from cheaters and not redistributed back to the affected/cheated players in the previous month added to the prize pool. This might help in establishing that the poker rooms really are keeping players' best interests, and not their own profit margins, in line when banning cheaters and confiscating funds.

Thank you for your time.

[/rant]

 

[bjking]

One thing needs to be cleared up here. Did the chip dumping take place in a tournament with more than two players? If so this is cheating and the players should be banned and the winnings given to charity (not used for free roll tournaments, the poker rooks can fund these themselves). If the chips were dumped in a one on one tournament then i don't see the problem. The poker room gets their rake and the players can move the money. Seems a strange way to pay a debt but each to their own.
If the players were moving money between just the two of the the money should be returned. Don't say your stopping money laundering by stealing their money. People don't launder money at $2000 a time online where there are records and they have to make deposits by credit cards and other reputable means.

 

[Chatmaster]

Thanks for your replies.

I want to ask a question. When you stand on a line, on what side of the line are you? Or rather, if there is a line between wrong or right and you stand dead on the line, are you wrong or right if a piece of your heel is in the Wrong part and a piece of your toe is in the right part. In my world ... The moment you have a piece in the wrong it is over, you are not right any more.

There is no if's or but's here, no standing on a thin line! You are either in the wrong or in the right. If you dumped chips and it is against the house rules that money is confiscated BY PRIMA. The rules do not say "if this" or "but that" it is gone! WHY on earth do you use a poker room that specifically states that they do not allow this .... then use them for your bank transactions? Come on! This is crazy, there is no ifs or but's, it is against the rules and that's is it. Nothing needs to be cleared up here, bjking! What he did is completely illegal end of story. Yeeezzzzz why do you play poker online? To do your banking? I am sorry actually it is not funny, I would hate to play with a bunch of chip dumpers. The rules are displayed in the room openly for everyone to read and it says perfectly clear what will happen if you do make yourself guilty of chip dumping.

Vesuvio, with regards to your remarks, I have to agree with you, we can display these rules on our website and be much more informative on this regard. I have already instructed the poker team to update their website. Thanks for this comments you have been very helpful.

 

[bjking]

Keep your hair on chatmaster.

Who has he harmed if the money was transfered on a one on one table?
Who are you to just take his money and keep it?

I love the way you guys think your above your customers and can just do what you want.
$1900 might buy a house in SA but trust me it is not worth it to get into money laundering for under 2k in the UK. Its not illegal either.


Sweetdenny you better be legit or I'm going to look like a right tit.

 

[Vesuvio]

What he did is completely illegal end of story... I am sorry actually it is not funny, I would hate to play with a bunch of chip dumpers. The rules are displayed in the room openly for everyone to read and it says perfectly clear what will happen if you do make yourself guilty of chip dumping.

Vesuvio, with regards to your remarks, I have to agree with you, we can display these rules on our website and be much more informative on this regard. I have already instructed the poker team to update their website. Thanks for this comments you have been very helpful.

Chatmaster -
1) It's not illegal - it may be against your rules
2) I've got no problem with playing with a "chip dumper", as long as it's being done on a private table between two consenting players. Why should that affect me in the slightest? Obviously I'm against collusion when other players are on the table, but that's not the issue here.
3) If you appreciated my comments then you must see that at the moment it's not so "perfectly clear" to a player that chip dumping is banned - in fact if a player wasn't sure and went to check in the obvious place they'd conclude that it was allowed. If you make it abundantly clear in future then perhaps you can confiscate funds (but let us know what you do with these unearned bonuses & give us a convincing reason you should keep them) - in this case you should pay.

 

[samchopra]

To Chatmaster

So if you are not refunding his money, what exactly are you doing with his money?

 

[Casinomeister]

Ok, let's chill everyone.

This is a Prima Poker issue - not poker333.com's. The player broke Prima Pokers rules flat out. The winnings were confiscated - end of story.

It is clear that chip dumping is not tolerated. What is so difficult to understand about that? I guess we should see if there are instances where perhaps it's ok under certain circumstances?? C'mon - be real.

 

[Casinomeister]

admin note

I've merged two threads since there was some cross posting going on. You may want to reread the thread to get back on track. Sorry for the confusion - but cross posting is not a good thing. Thanks!

 

[Chatmaster]

Keep your hair on chatmaster.

OK

Who has he harmed if the money was transfered on a one on one table?

The entire online multiplayer gambling industry! It will be a disaster if we allow chip dumping. This industry will get more bad publicity than Robert Mugabe.

I love the way you guys think your above your customers and can just do what you want.

This hurts. I have never seen our poker room as being part of the scummy outfits that have this attitude. I for one definately are not part of the scummy outfits. Open your eyes and see what i am saying.

$1900 might buy a house in SA but trust me it is not worth it to get into money laundering for under 2k in the UK. Its not illegal either.

This is not Zimbabwe bjking it is SA, big difference!!! Real Estate here is damn expensive. I still appreciate your sense of humour though.

Finally. I have no idea what Prima does with the money.

 

[sillybilly]

Genocide=chipdumping

Robert mugabe appropriated peoples farms, is destroying peoples houses and livelihoods and has murdered 100s of 1000s of people who are of a different tribe. I hardly think that chip dumping between 2 people on their own is on a par with that.
Chatmaster, get some perspective. Online gaming is all about the $$$.
Poker rooms get their rake, and as long as there is protection from collusion to win money from other people, what is the problem? It is not illegal to lose to someone at poker. In the UK gambling debts are not even enforceable.


WHY DO YOUR ORGANISATION HAVE A RIGHT TO THIS MONEY.

its not yours. you have not earned it or won it. The rake is your just reward for offering a service. Why cant you be content with that.