Primapoker funds confiscations (Lucky Nugget Poker and Poker333)

[The Dude]

Robert mugabe appropriated peoples farms, is destroying peoples houses and livelihoods and has murdered 100s of 1000s of people who are of a different tribe. I hardly think that chip dumping between 2 people on their own is on a par with that.
Chatmaster, get some perspective. Online gaming is all about the $$$.
Poker rooms get their rake, and as long as there is protection from collusion to win money from other people, what is the problem? It is not illegal to lose to someone at poker. In the UK gambling debts are not even enforceable.


WHY DO YOUR ORGANISATION HAVE A RIGHT TO THIS MONEY.

its not yours. you have not earned it or won it. The rake is your just reward for offering a service. Why cant you be content with that.

I don't think Chatmaster has much to do with this. It's Prima Poker.

Chip dumping is a form of collusion and is considered fraudulant play. These guys who were caught would be lucky to get their deposits back.

Deposit $100. Commit fraud. Don't get the deposit back = TS.
or
Deposit $100. Commit fraud. Get the deposit back = There is a god.

Try doing something like this in Vegas and see what happens. You'd be lucky to walk out with all of your bones in the right place.

 

[sillybilly]

Who is being defrauded?
Players 1 and 2, play on their own and effectively transfer money between themselves.

Prima takes rake from a table that would otherwise be empty

Prima then confiscates all the money including deposits.

The winnings won fair and square at piggs peak would also count as deposits wouldnt they?

Not a bad bit of business, stick the terms somewhere obscure, then jump in with both feet and take $1900.

 

[The Dude]

Who is being defrauded?
Players 1 and 2, play on their own and effectively transfer money between themselves.

Prima takes rake from a table that would otherwise be empty

Prima then confiscates all the money including deposits.

The winnings won fair and square at piggs peak would also count as deposits wouldnt they?

Not a bad bit of business, stick the terms somewhere obscure, then jump in with both feet and take $1900.

"Chip dumping" is fraudulent play - it's not real honest to goodness card action.

i was due my friend money so decided quickest way to repay him was to just lose it directly to him from my account so we both sat at a table...

Poker rooms are not set up to be your private fund transfer point. That could be considered money laundering, and this is something "the man" will come down on you hard for.

If these players "owed" each other money, there are other ways to make these transfers. You can make peer-to-peer transfers in Neteller, you can write someone a check or send a wire transfer. Online Poker rooms are not there for this purpose.

stick the terms somewhere obscure

This player was fully aware that this was fraudulent. He playes a number of poker rooms - duh, like this is new??

You may feel that since they had their own table it was okay. It is still fraud no matter how you look at it. It's like saying she's only a little bit pregnant. Either you is or you ain't.

 

[Petunia]

Who is being defrauded?
Players 1 and 2, play on their own and effectively transfer money between themselves. .

**THis just brings me right back to the point I made ... because you did this, 'amongst friends' and nobody got 'hurt' the casino should 'overrule' their original t&c's just for them.

I believe the rules are the rules. Period. If you break'em and get away with it... good for you (after all,some rules ARE to be tested AND broken) but when you get caught... Even breaking rules without intention to do 'harm' is still breaking the rules! Should casinos start making up rules as they please, based on their own emotional judgment, time of day, mood, etc... there'd be HAVOCK !! **

 

[Vesuvio]

This is a Prima Poker issue - not poker333.com's. The player broke Prima Pokers rules flat out. The winnings were confiscated - end of story.

It is clear that chip dumping is not tolerated. What is so difficult to understand about that? I guess we should see if there are instances where perhaps it's ok under certain circumstances?? C'mon - be real.

This is Poker333.com's issue, though. The player signed up through them & can expect to find anything relevant to his play on their site. As it is chip dumping isn't mentioned.

To find anything about it you have to decide to click the help button in the software, then go to "rules", then "standard games".

Even if for some reason you ignore the website and do that you still get a rule with the provisos that it "may" result in losing buy-in amounts. Together with a note: "These decisions are at the discretion of the House". I'm not sure who the "house" is in this case, but it's clearly possible not to decide to confiscate all of a players funds - in the few cases I've heard of this the player has received their funds back after a bit of a struggle. Unless Poker333.com's website specifically bans this behaviour they should pay up.

Chip dumping isn't some great evil. Some poker sites encourage open transfers between members - others turn a blind eye to chip dumping as they're happy for money to keep circulating as long as they get their rake. The "money laundering" justification for confiscating funds is a bit far-fetched. It's hardly going to be a criminal's first choice given the checks on deposits, withdrawals and the poker site having a complete record of your play.

 

[Annorax]

This is a Prima Poker issue - not poker333.com's. The player broke Prima Pokers rules flat out. The winnings were confiscated - end of story.

Yes, the funds were confiscated. Yes, Sweetdenny and his friend don't deserve to get their money back. But why should Prima keep this money? They haven't done anything to deserve to keep it. Shouldn't it go elsewhere, like a charity? Seems to me that Prima shouldn't profit excessively from catching cheaters.

 

[The Dude]

This is Poker333.com's issue, though. The player signed up through them & can expect to find anything relevant to his play on their site. As it is chip dumping isn't mentioned. .

The exact term "chipdumping" is not mentioned, neither is calliing up your buddy on the phone and sharing information on one's hand mentioned as well. But both sites (Prima and Poker333 - and every Prima Poker room out there)state the following:

However, there is one thing that happens in land casinos that some cheaters do try to get away with on line: they try to collude, that is, share information and play their hands in order to help each other win. This is also known as playing partners.

You are splitting hairs here. This "chip dumping" is a form of collussion - they are sharing information on helping each other win - no need to go further.

...Chip dumping isn't some great evil. Some poker sites encourage open transfers between members - others turn a blind eye to chip dumping as they're happy for money to keep circulating as long as they get their rake...

Now it sounds like you are making shit up. Which poker room are you referring to?

As far as I'm concerned, this is a dead issue. Chip dumping, no matter how you look at it is a form of collusion. The players knew it was wrong when they did it, they got caught and the poker room exercised its right on confiscating the player's funds.

 

[The Dude]

... Shouldn't it go elsewhere, like a charity? Seems to me that Prima shouldn't profit excessively from catching cheaters.

You may have a point - there might be a solution to this.

 

[Vesuvio]

The exact term "chipdumping" is not mentioned, neither is calliing up your buddy on the phone and sharing information on one's hand mentioned as well. But both sites (Prima and Poker333 - and every Prima Poker room out there)state the following:

However, there is one thing that happens in land casinos that some cheaters do try to get away with on line: they try to collude, that is, share information and play their hands in order to help each other win. This is also known as playing partners.

You are splitting hairs here. This "chip dumping" is a form of collussion - they are sharing information on helping each other win - no need to go further.

I don't think I'm the one splitting hairs here. The quote you mention above is clearly referring to something completely different - i.e. players colluding to cheat other players out of money. Of course that's the worst thing about on-line poker and 99.9999% of players will agree with the most drastic measures taken by poker sites to deal with it.

"Chip dumping" isn't cheating anyone. It's just a couple of players wanting to transfer money on a private two-player table. You can't meaningfully say "they are sharing information on helping each other win" - one of them's winning and the other's losing the same amount - only the poker site will make any money on it through their rake.

Now it sounds like you are making shit up. Which poker room are you referring to?

At Paradise Poker players can transfer money between themselves (see 5.06

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). At Party Poker I think you can buy "gift certificates" of poker chips for other players.

I'm not really that into poker so I must admit I've no hard evidence for poker sites "turning a blind eye" to chip dumping, though I think I've read it somewhere, and as it's something that earns them money, keeps players bankrolled and doesn't harm other players I don't think it's too far-fetched an assumption.

 

[caruso]

Whatever the rights or wrongs, the room has no right to keep the money, and the fact that they said it had "disappeared in cyberspace" is most revealing.

The money is not a freebie the casino can snaffle up. It was won from other players, not BY this player FROM the casino. This would be tantamount to stealing from those other players. Since nobody was actually cheated, as was the case with Intercasino a while back, the money cannot be redistributed to the cheated players. It needs to be donated to charity, and there needs to be some kind of audit trail to PROVE the fact.The room CANNOT keep it.

If it were a casino situation in which the money had been ostensibly won FROM the casino, it would be a different matter.

As to the rights or wrongs: I'm very sympathetic to the player. On the face of it, passing money to another player in a heads-up situation does not seem illegal. We're not talking faked documents or multi IDs here. However, if passing money thus is "dumping", and if this is in contravention of the T & C, then so be it.

I would be interested to know why this is considered wrong, though.

 

[Webzcas]

Chatmaster -
1) It's not illegal - it may be against your rules
2) I've got no problem with playing with a "chip dumper", as long as it's being done on a private table between two consenting players. Why should that affect me in the slightest? Obviously I'm against collusion when other players are on the table, but that's not the issue here.
3) If you appreciated my comments then you must see that at the moment it's not so "perfectly clear" to a player that chip dumping is banned - in fact if a player wasn't sure and went to check in the obvious place they'd conclude that it was allowed. If you make it abundantly clear in future then perhaps you can confiscate funds (but let us know what you do with these unearned bonuses & give us a convincing reason you should keep them) - in this case you should pay.

Chipdumping is wrong period and is against the rules. Furthermore for Poker Rooms to turn a blind eye to it ( Chipdumping ), allowing chipdumping could rightly bring accusations against the poker room in aiding and abetting and therefore assisting money laundering.

Those that do practice chipdumping should not cry foul when they get caught red handed.

 

[Webzcas]

"Chip dumping" isn't cheating anyone. It's just a couple of players wanting to transfer money on a private two-player table. You can't meaningfully say "they are sharing information on helping each other win" - one of them's winning and the other's losing the same amount - only the poker site will make any money on it through their rake.

Ok let me try and put this into layman terms a bit for you:

1) Monies obtained fraudlently via stolen credit card details etc, can and do find a way to be deposited into online poker rooms and poker networks. ( Although this is small, this does happen, hence all casinos and poker rooms have SECURITY DEPARTMENTS - and you all at some time have been inconvenienced to provide proof of identity before cashing out at some time or other as a result. - This is the casino/poker portal protecting itself and more importantly it's customers i.e YOU )

2) The normal practice is to dump these monies via way of private table chip dumping to an associate with a real bona fida legit card.

3) The associate then cashes out the dumped winnings either to Neteller, card or other payment portal

4) The poker room then a week or several days later has a charge back for the stolen funds issued against it.

5) The poker room ends up swallowing the cost of the fraudlent player.

The above is one of the main reasons chip dumping is not allowed.

Besides the fact it can be classed as collusion and could warrant accusations of aiding and abetting money laundering against the poker room if chip dumping was facilitated and allowed on an online poker site.

I have no sympathy for any player that is caught chip dumping.

 

[Vesuvio]

Ok let me try and put this into layman terms a bit for you:

Cheers

I'll grant you that seems a fair reason for poker sites to be concerned about chip dumping. However, it can also be done for perfectly innocent reasons - simply to transfer some money quickly. Some sites obviously see this as a feature players appreciate as they have procedures in place to allow it.

There's nothing morally wrong about chip dumping as such, and if in this case the players haven't engaged in credit card (or any other type of) fraud they should still be paid. As I've said before - if Poker333 had made it abundantly clear on their website that chip dumping wasn't allowed I'd accept it (though I still don't think they deserve to keep the funds). As it is their website doesn't mention it and the rules are hidden away in the software itself. If a player checked they'd probably conclude that chip dumping was fine.

p.s. the poker333 review on your website's a bit OTT, isn't it? (and odd that you're the site admin for a forum where Chatmaster's the moderator)

 

[Webzcas]

Cheers

I'll grant you that seems a fair reason for poker sites to be concerned about chip dumping. However, it can also be done for perfectly innocent reasons - simply to transfer some money quickly. Some sites obviously see this as a feature players appreciate as they have procedures in place to allow it.

A poker site is not a bank full stop. Prima does not allow chip dumping. If you break the rules expect to get your fingers burnt when caught.

p.s. the poker333 review on your website's a bit OTT, isn't it? (and odd that you're the site admin for a forum where Chatmaster's the moderator

I actually rate Poker333 - It is my poker room of choice. You may also notice that I have a Fortune Affiliates representative who is also a moderator on my forum. The reason Chatmaster and AndrewM are moderators is because they are both representatives of the casinos I promote and as such have their own forums.

However that said, if Poker333 had actually done anything wrong I would be the first to point the finger at them.

Nice try to defend your defence of chip dumping by making an attack on me.

 

[Vesuvio]

Prima does not allow chip dumping. If you break the rules expect to get your fingers burnt when caught.

This needs to be made clear on the individual websites. If it's not they can't justify confiscating a player's funds (something that's hard to justify in any case - some less drastic approach would make more sense).

I actually rate Poker333 - It is my poker room of choice.

Forgive me for not setting huge store by your poker reviews. Why only have a few Prima sites? Few people who know much about poker would consider those the best places to play.

Nice try to defend your defence of chip dumping by making an attack on me.

Not really an attack - I was just curious what might motivate your aggressive and rather patronising posts.

 

[The Dude]

Ok guys, let's chill. Thanks!

 

[bjking]

Ok I think we all now understand why these players shouldn't chip dump. However It was not clearly explained in the T&C that if the players took part in chip dumping that they would loose all their money.

I think the poker site should hold on to the money for 2 months to make sure that the credit card was legit and if there is no charge back then on this occasion the poker site should refund the players and make it clear on their site what they will do if players chip dump.

 

[Webzcas]

Not really an attack - I was just curious what might motivate your aggressive and rather patronising posts.

Apologies if I came across aggressive, it's not in my nature and was not intended. Sorry if you saw it that way. As for being patronising, I apologise as well - after reading the several pages of this thread it seemed to me that many were missing the point as to why chipdumping is not allowed.

As for what happens to the confiscated funds, hmm it will be interesting to hear what Prima have to say about this as it is ultimately their network. I am guessing though with a chipdumping case they will likely be carrying out security checks to ensure the amount involved did not come from fraudulent activities.

Finally I would imagine that most who have played on the prima network for a while would also know that chip dumping is a 'no no'.

Ok guys, let's chill. Thanks!

Sorry, will do

 

[Vesuvio]

Ok, chill pills taken

I'm not attacking Poker333 in particular, but I simply don't think you can lightly confiscate players' funds - & certainly not if you can't show they were fraudulently obtained.

 

[Petunia]

**Agreed Vesuvio - also the statement that "it dissappeared in cyberspace" is NOT QUITE sitting well either!! **

 

[sweetdenny]

My response

Hi all ive been checking my thread all weekend with no replies then didnt check yesterday and it has all kicked off. I must address a few points raised here the frist point is someone mentioned they could hold the money for a couple months to check that all deposits were ok well its been 6 month now and all my deposits have gone through ok. Next point someone said its primas problem now not poker333 well customers can only contact prima via the skin in this case poker333 so it still remains there problem. The statement its dissapeared into cyber space still remains an issue sandy koor may be to the point but this doesent excuse this statement. I never found where this statement says chipdumping is banned by prima i read poker333 T+C and found nothing someone says its under help well im locked out my account and cant check this. Chatmaster you say you have no idea where the confiscated money goes well as i cant contact prima maybe you could and find out what happens to it. Casinomeister you ask what rooms allow chipdumping well pokerstars one of the biggest rooms allows transfers direct to players accounts and ladbrokes turns a blind eye to it i have a hand number and date and time of this happening between actionjack (one of most well known players on ladbrokes ) and another player doing the exact same thing as me and my friend. You can feel free to test ladbrokes and see if they confiscate both these players money i think not. You say this is clear chipdumping and i should just let it go well if it was blatent cheating i would just let it go. I MADE A MISTAKE thats all no malice no fraud no playing partners nothing i lost to him directly on a table no one else involved others can see this as a mistake and not a great fraud why cant you . Chatmaster you state my friends account has two aliases i will ask him about this and report back if you are saying his account is dodgy in any way return my money to my account which Sevens Sultans say is in perfect order and i will cash it out there has been a lot of points rasied here which still remain unanswered.

 

[realwtfsup]

Chimp dumping is wrong.

Just an opinion from a onine poker player.

First seize the funds. Then investigate both of the players carefully. Go through there play records aad see if any of the funds wre gained by defrauding other players. This is a must to into for any poker site for myself to have any confidence in it.

If they find none and it is an honest mistake. Well that is a difficult situation. I would understand a poker room giving the player a break ONE time.

 

[trade]

Hi all ive been checking my thread all weekend with no replies then didnt check yesterday and it has all kicked off. I must address a few points raised here the frist point is someone mentioned they could hold the money for a couple months to check that all deposits were ok well its been 6 month now and all my deposits have gone through ok. Next point someone said its primas problem now not poker333 well customers can only contact prima via the skin in this case poker333 so it still remains there problem. The statement its dissapeared into cyber space still remains an issue sandy koor may be to the point but this doesent excuse this statement. I never found where this statement says chipdumping is banned by prima i read poker333 T+C and found nothing someone says its under help well im locked out my account and cant check this. Chatmaster you say you have no idea where the confiscated money goes well as i cant contact prima maybe you could and find out what happens to it. Casinomeister you ask what rooms allow chipdumping well pokerstars one of the biggest rooms allows transfers direct to players accounts and ladbrokes turns a blind eye to it i have a hand number and date and time of this happening between actionjack (one of most well known players on ladbrokes ) and another player doing the exact same thing as me and my friend. You can feel free to test ladbrokes and see if they confiscate both these players money i think not. You say this is clear chipdumping and i should just let it go well if it was blatent cheating i would just let it go. I MADE A MISTAKE thats all no malice no fraud no playing partners nothing i lost to him directly on a table no one else involved others can see this as a mistake and not a great fraud why cant you . Chatmaster you state my friends account has two aliases i will ask him about this and report back if you are saying his account is dodgy in any way return my money to my account which Sevens Sultans say is in perfect order and i will cash it out there has been a lot of points rasied here which still remain unanswered.

I believe and side with you sweetdenny. I don't think any malicious thing happened here. Naive.. yes. Exceptions should be examined, considered, counselled, reviewed and made. Lord knows there are enough checks and balances made if there is anything in doubt of dubious play at casinos (see bonus problem threads!) They played at a private table, no one else was involved! In this, which I believe is extraodinary circumstances.. the guy didn't cheat.. he made a bad choice. The casino should, in my opinion, investigate, counsel and err on the side of the player, rap their hands, warn them never to do this again and state clearly on their website or in a mass mailing that transferring of chips or "chip dumping" is not allowed. The casino profitted from them on the rake none the less. We don't have to do the "moral high ground" here casinos! Give it a personal touch.. if people didn't put their trust in you in the immense and precarious cyberland, you wouldn't be in business.. give them the same benefit of the doubt!!

 

[sweetdenny]

Confused as hell

I have just received the most odd private message from chatmaster.. In it he has stated two points that i cant understand (1) "but it is a case where the poker room is at blame for what Prima has done and done rightly so." and (2)" I openly admitted that we have been at fault in the sense that we do have to put those rules on our website " so in these two statements he i stelling me that the casino is taking the blame fro it yet he goes on to say he cannot help me as my friend has two alisases and therefore looks guilty. I have spoken to my friend and the reason that he has two alises is he sighned up at royal vegas and poker333 and made two names not realising that you can only have one as the skins are linked this is a common mistake and one that keeps coming up on this board as a reason casinos dont pay up. The only reason that i have been given through all this is that it is against the rules that i "chipdumped" no other faults have been found with my accounts as im sure they have went through with a fine tooth comb in the 6 month since this happened . The casino via chatmaster has admitted they were at fault for not providing the rules on there website and that the poker room is to blame for having the account locked. How can they not now pay me my winnings whenever a casino has admitted they are to blame on this site they have re imbursed the player why is this not happening here i just cannot understand. I have convinced numerous members of the forum i am genuine i have convinced chatmaster i am not a fraudster as he has stated the casino are to blame the jury is still out if casinomeister believes me or not all these people can see the case for what it is why cant my winnings be refunded or at least prima to re-investigate the case.

 

[Chatmaster]

Mmmmm

What a game are you playing? This message was recieved by you a day ago, but 30 minutes ago I sent you a message explaining to you that you understood wrong. What I did say is that the rules have been in the software all along. It seems you still havent found it it seems!

Now suddenly you change my words!!!

Here is a direct quote from my sent items

I openly admitted that we have been at fault in the sense that we do have to put those rules on our website as well although we both know that you were aware that it was illegal to chipdump before you did so. I also would have been more than happy to assist you but the fact that you have made yourself guilty of Chipdumping three times and your friend had 2 aliases makes it impossible for me to do that, I know that from experience. It simply makes you look more guilty.

I told you in the PM "I just sent you(really)" that I feel from an online marketing perspective to give players trust in Prima I feel it should be on the website as well. It should also then scare off the frauds.

Final point = The Casino never admited a thing... I speak for myself!

 

[Vesuvio]

Not really sure what to make of this, but:

1) I don't think having two aliases should be an issue unless they're at the same site. The alias situation is a problem with Prima and confuses/discourages a lot of people from playing there.

2) The fact that the chip dumping occurred two or three times also shouldn't be an issue unless the player was warned not to do it before the final time.

3) There seems to be a problem here in that Chatmaster isn't the manager at Poker333 and therefore doesn't really have the authority to do anything - and Poker333 seem to be hiding behind the "it's up to Prima" excuse. I'm 100% sure large organisations like Ladbrokes or Bet365poker wouldn't allow something that jeopardises their reputation to occur and then claim their hands are tied by Prima Poker.

Unless we're not being told the whole story here and there was some fraud committed it still looks like the players should be given back their funds. I'd a bit confused as to why this has been allowed to drag on for 6 months

 

[sweetdenny]

Chatmaster

I do not knowo what you mean by saying what game am i playing the whole message that you sent is here """""""""""Hi Sweetdenny

Yes Sandy is a very blunt person, I have the world of respect for him because of this and the fact that he is a great person. Also I do not appreciate people lying to me. I am sorry if the thread has moved into a direction that borders insanity, but it is a case where the poker room is at blame for what Prima has done and done rightly so. I openly admitted that we have been at fault in the sense that we do have to put those rules on our website as well although we both know that you were aware that it was illegal to chipdump before you did so. I also would have been more than happy to assist you but the fact that you have made yourself guilty of Chipdumping three times and your friend had 2 aliases makes it impossible for me to do that, I know that from experience. It simply makes you look more guilty. Besides that, Prima can't afford to set double standards and need to look after the well being of all the poker rooms using their skin.""""""""""""" My statement is still the same i do not understand i posted the last message as soon as i read this message and also vesuvio there is no other fraud commited as i have stated over and over poker333 has only given the reason it was chipdumping they have admitted in above message they were at fault but yet are not willing to review this case or to gte prima which is what i am asking i only the skin can contact prima i cant contact prima and they wont.

 

[sweetdenny]

Chatmaster

You state in the final line of your last message i speak for myself yet in your private message you say "" I "" openly admit " we " were at fault now can you see how i am getting confused. So just to clarify this point could you state what your name and position is within poker333 so that i am clear where you are coming from.

 

[Annorax]

3) There seems to be a problem here in that Chatmaster isn't the manager at Poker333 and therefore doesn't really have the authority to do anything - and Poker333 seem to be hiding behind the "it's up to Prima" excuse. I'm 100% sure large organisations like Ladbrokes or Bet365poker wouldn't allow something that jeopardises their reputation to occur and then claim their hands are tied by Prima Poker.

Last I knew, Ladbrokes used the Microgaming software, but wasn't on the Prima network.

 

[The Dude]

Well, this thread is beginning to spiral into redundant idiocy. I think that it is perfectly clear that chip dumping is a form of fraudulent play, and fraudulent play is strictly prohibited; it's stated on every Prima Poker site.

Players who knowingly chip dump and get caught shouldn't expect sympathy - it's just your tough luck, and you should not expect any casino or poker room to bend their rules to accommodate you. Get over it already.

What happens to the funds? Well, if you get your deposit back - then there are your funds. Lest we forget - poker rooms are not banks. If you are in a poker room in Vegas and you commit fraud, don't expect to quietly pick up your chips and leave. I know in some cases where collussion has been detected, screwed players receive their lost wagers. I'm not sure what happens in a case like this. The only thing that these players should be entitled to are their deposits. When you commit fraud (yes, it's fraud no matter how many hairs you split) don't expect to be coddled and pampered.

And by the way sweetdenny, a PM is a private message. It's in rather bad taste to start publishing PMs without the sender's permission. Please don't use this message board as a form of arm twisting.

 

[Vesuvio]

Casinomeister - agreed that sweetdenny's once more going about things completely the wrong way... but you can't be committing fraud unless you're trying to gain a financial advantage. Chip dumping on its own doesn't - in fact usually only the poker room will make money through the rake (yes, I know the rake can sometimes be avoided). If the players were committing fraud and using chip dumping to escape checks on their play then I wouldn't have any sympathy with them, but as far as we know that wasn't the case.

I still think you're splitting more hairs trying to claim this is fraud and clearly pointed out at every Prima site (if it was then why do they feel the need to refer to "chip dumping" separately within the software? - in fact I've just gone to Poker333 and there's no general comment about fraud, only the statement about collusion you used before which very clearly refers to players colluding to win money from others). There's no need to bend any rules as even the rules hidden within the software only talk of possible actions at their discretion.

I can understand your annoyance at some of the posts on this thread, but you can't get around the fact there is a real issue here.

 

[Vesuvio]

Last I knew, Ladbrokes used the Microgaming software, but wasn't on the Prima network.

Cheers! I always just assumed they must share the network too, but they're not listed at www.primapoker.com, so you must be right.

 

[sweetdenny]

Casinomeister

I did not post the full pm till after chatmaster had posted half of it i did not post the full message originally for the reason you state its meant to be private. I only posted the full message after he asked what sort of game am i playing so that it was clearly stated where the confusion has arisen he is stating that he and we were at fault then going on to say i misquoted him a lot of your forum members want this resolved and for casinomeister or a member of the casino to explain clearly what happens to the funds everyone and you now say the deposits should at least be returned but they havent. As vesuvio states the rules dont need mending the majority and even chatmaster says they werent there. You would nail any other casino for this but what have you got against me. The very least i deserve is for all the points to be cleared up once and for all. You say the thread is nearly past its sell by date but there is a lot of questions need answering and not for my benefit but a lot of others. This forum is the only place i can get the points addressed as sandy koor started ignoring my emails when this first happened. The emails basically just told me to get lost and he refused to answer any of the points i ahve brought up here this is when the statement the funds have dissapeared into cyber space was handed out to me regardless of what u think of me or this case you have to agree speaking to customers all be it ex customers is not acceptable.

 

[kavaman]

my point of view

This is a difficult issue. This time my view on the issue is a bit different then CM. I mostly agree with vesuvio that if its not mentioned in the terms and conditions of the poker room, your money should not be confiscated.

Like vesuvio explained many poker rooms allow you to transfer funds to other people with inter account transfers at the poker rooms. I think it is "somewhat similar" to chip dumping if chip dumping is made on a private table.

Usually chip dumping is forbidden at poker rooms, but if the terms and conditions do not state it, i dont know. Playing in the same table with your friend and communicating with him via msn, phone and so on to play against other players is much more serious issue then chip dumping.

If this was an issue with a casino, and the player had met all the casino terms and conditions and didn't have any kind of fraudulent activity in his account all of us would be saying its the casino who should honor their terms and conditions.

-kavaman

 

[eichmann]

For once i think the CasinoMeister may have it wrong, ChipDumping in itself is not fraud. A fraud must have a victim. If the chip dumping was in order to launder money from a credit card fraud or collusion then there is a victim and the chipdump is part of that fraud. If the chipdump was just a means of transferring money between two players it is not fraud but it would appear it is against the rules ,although it seems little or no effort is made to make these rules known. I found some rules from PRIMA in an earlier post on this thread Alias


"The following rules apply:

Chip Dumping

Chip dumping is not allowed, and may result in the following:

* Players being disqualified and removed from the game.

* Players forfeiting all buy-in amounts.

* Players being permanently banned from the Multi-Player Casino."

now these rules state that ChipDumping "MAY" result in one of these actions , and it would seem the word "MAY " and the choice of options are clearly there so that individual cases can be assessed on their own merits. With these choices of options it would seem unjustified for PRIMA to seize winnings/chips without being prepared to say some fraud has taken place. I also note that these rules dont mention confiscating winnings but buy-ins

PRIMA seem to want us to believe that the attitude of all online cardrooms to ChipDumping is the same outrage they want to portray, however i dont think another card room would be worried about it if no fraud was involved. Pokerstars where i play daily allow interplayer transfers in the tens of thousands of dollars and normally perform them in less than an hour. In the field of gambling where borrowing and lending goes with the territory PRIMA can only expect players to try and transfer money that way while they provide no method of inter player transfer.

On the issue of multiple aliases some other poker sites are also very tolerant of this and understand fully that some players need to play under new aliases when their playing style becomes known.

I don't know if there is more involved to this case than has been stated here but it does look like a case of PRIMA seizing the money "because they can"

If there is no victim there is no reason for PRIMA to seize the money and no reason for them to add it into their profits

 

[scrollock]

with chip dumping you can have 2 scenarios

scenario 1)

2 players who are friends and who regularly spend 1,000's per month (probably a hell of a lot more due to recycling money), one of them runs out of cash and both go to an empty table to "chip dump" a loan

scenario 2)

2 players join a poker site, play a minimal amout of games and then goto a empty table and "chip dump" an amout that far exceeds what either has played.

scenario 1) is purely innocent and it is for this reason that some sites sensibly allow direct player transfers

scenario 2) is clearly a case of money laundering, and appropiate action should be taken

however as the situation stands, some casinos do not discrimate between the 2 scenarios, and take advantage to use the all inclusive term of "chip dumping" to indiscrimatly take funds as it will be be to the pokerrooms financial advantage.

 

[GrandMaster]

scenario 2) is clearly a case of money laundering, and appropiate action should be taken

It is only money laundering if the money comes from illegal sources.

 

[mitch]

On a number of threads we see the same arguements.

Player clearly breaches a casinos T&Cs with possible fraudulent intent. Player gets caught. Player comes to Forum pleading innocence and giving his version of events which surprise surprise does not involve cheating and how its all only a mistake etc etc.

A lot of forum members then jump on said casino and declare that the player should be paid unless the casino can disprove the players statements and intentions.

I have posted before that casinos only have the facts to go on. They don't have a crystal ball neither can they realistically be expected to employ investigators to check out players statements. Members who support this player should ask themselves do they really expect cheaters to admit guilt when caught or do they expect that they would come up with a plausible tale?

In this case the player admits colluding with another player. Do poker playing members feel that casinos should crack down hard on all instances of proven player collusion. I certainly want them to!

The casino takes its rake notwithstanding, it's other players who are being fleeced by people who are prepared to collude. I would not want to play at a casino that was blase about collusion, no matter what form it took.

This players partner is also using multiple names. No doubt he has some explanations none of which would be that it helps to avoid being suspected of colluding by other players, who might notice the same two names cropping up on tables fairly often!

I don't know the truth of this matter and I am not likely to find out.
What I and other members do know (and only know for certain) is that this person is prepared to collude and that he has clearly breached T&Cs he freely signed upto with this casino and which give the casino the right to act against said player.

Finally, for supporters of this person, if he and his partner turned up at a table you were playing would you be content to play. Of course you could always ask him on chat whether everything was above board and when he replied 'certainly' no doubt that would clear any possible doubts, people don't lie when money is involved after all do they?

Mitch

 

[Mart]

Player clearly breaches a casinos T&Cs with possible fraudulent intent.

Except it isn't in the terms and conditions.

A lot of forum members then jump on said casino and declare that the player should be paid unless the casino can disprove the players statements and intentions.

No, I'm saying he should be paid if the facts as presented are correct, as far as the casino is concerned.

Members who support this player should ask themselves do they really expect cheaters to admit guilt when caught or do they expect that they would come up with a plausible tale?

No, but the tale is hardly difficult to check now is it? Were they heads up, and have all their deposits cleared ok?

In this case the player admits colluding with another player. Do poker playing members feel that casinos should crack down hard on all instances of proven player collusion. I certainly want them to!

The casino takes its rake notwithstanding, it's other players who are being fleeced by people who are prepared to collude.

Heads up chip dumping is hardly collusion. Explain how other players are being fleeced here?

This players partner is also using multiple names. No doubt he has some explanations none of which would be that it helps to avoid being suspected of colluding by other players, who might notice the same two names cropping up on tables fairly often!

Again if they are playing on the same tables this is easy for the casino to check.

For what it's worth, I am not particularly a "supporter" here. I don't have the full facts so I'm keeping an open mind about it. But what I object to is that any casino being able to levy "fines" of $1K+. They may not be a bank, but they sure are hell aren't a court of law either. And to be honest if you applied your "where there's smoke there's fire" type reasoning to Prima you'd find it hard to support any of their account freezing decisions.

Martin

 

[buck]

Chip Dumping

I can't understand this whole thread. But why would anyone to transfer funds between andother party via this method.

Almost all of us have Neteller accounts and transfers can be made easily between users.

I think the orginal party got caught and is trying to use this lame execuse.

Buck

 

[sweetdenny]

Another clear up

(1) I did not have neteller at that time this week i am in the process of getting it verified . (2) All deposits have cleared ok my account is 100 % legit im sure they have checked and prima can find no evidence of any fraud on my account. (3) We have never colluded against other players by playing partners im sure again prima has checked this and would have said if they found anything not quite right. (4) My friend ended up with 2 aliases as he signed up at two sites not knowing they were linked and this was not allowed again i have not played with his other alias again i have not colluded with this alias either (5) The only reason i have been given for the fund confiscation is that it was chipdumping which A is not mentioned in poker333 rules and they have admitted they were at fault over this and B it is mentioned in primas rules but does not say all funds will be confiscated. I have given all the facts in this case as they are, whoever said casinomeister may have been wrong over his decision on this i have to say it is his opinion and he is allowed it. It has been said i went about things the wrong way well that may be true but i am speaking after being ignored by poker333 support for months and may have vented my frustration at the wrong people for this i apologise. I have asked casinomeister to review his position on this case as a lot of posters have brought up valid points and have re inforced my view that i am being un fairly dealt with here i hope to here from Bryan soon as to whether he can look into this again.

 

[Webzcas]

Sweetdenny how long exactly have you been playing poker online? Also how long have you been playing at prima poker rooms for?

The reason I ask is, if you have been playing there for a while, regardless whether the poker room website mentioned chipdumping being illegal, you would have known this to be the case nevertheless. An assumption on my part, but if you are into online poker, you must frequent the forums and not just this one and would have picked this up.

 

[sweetdenny]

Webzcas

I have been playing online for a few years now at various sites which all either allow cash transfers to other players or allow chipdumping on tables with just the 2 of u. They do not allow money laundering but this is not what happened here and they certainly do not confiscate all someones money and tell them the money has dissapeared into cyber space. I have played prima network a very few times as i have frequented forum boards and have been told prima is not a good network so should have stayed away but i gave them the benefit of the doubt really wishing i hadnt now. Regardless of how long i have been playing online this shouldnt have any baring on this case as it does not state in poker333 rules that chipdumping is an offense that will end up in your funds being confiscated. In all the years of playing online and reading the forums the only site that i have ever heard confiscating all of someones account is prima and to be honest the only other case i can think of is that is pokergirls 60k which he has now had to get his lawyer involved but that was due to someone using a stolen card or ill gained funds which is a million miles away from what has happened to me.

 

[Webzcas]

other case i can think of is that is pokergirls 60k

That was on Captain Cook's, I remember commenting on it at the time.

 

[Webzcas]

One thing Sweetdenny. You obviously know about what happened to Poker Girl, who is one of the more successfull and high profile online poker players. How come you then chipdumped on a prima portal when you were aware of what happened to Poker Girl?

I am of the view that the money should be returned to the individuals concerned once all security checks have been carried out and completed to Prima's and Poker333's satisfaction. If it is not, a clear explanation should be given as to the reason why. However you were caught taking part in an activity i.e Chipdumping which you have now admitted you knew is not allowed on a prima site. ( Your admission to knowing about Pokergirl's situation proves this )

I have no sympathy with the situation you find yourself in as a result.

 

[realwtfsup]

I have been playing online for a few years now at various sites which all either allow cash transfers to other players or allow chipdumping on tables with just the 2 of u. They do not allow money laundering but this is not what happened here and they certainly do not confiscate all someones money and tell them the money has dissapeared into cyber space. I have played prima network a very few times as i have frequented forum boards and have been told prima is not a good network so should have stayed away but i gave them the benefit of the doubt really wishing i hadnt now. Regardless of how long i have been playing online this shouldnt have any baring on this case as it does not state in poker333 rules that chipdumping is an offense that will end up in your funds being confiscated. In all the years of playing online and reading the forums the only site that i have ever heard confiscating all of someones account is prima and to be honest the only other case i can think of is that is pokergirls 60k which he has now had to get his lawyer involved but that was due to someone using a stolen card or ill gained funds which is a million miles away from what has happened to me.

What sites allow chip dumping?

You have been playing online several years and do not know that chip dumping would be wrong?

My BS meter is on full tilt now.

 

[Webzcas]

From the help page of the Poker333 Software.

Chip Dumping

Chip dumping is not allowed, and may result in the following:

Players being disqualified and removed from the game.
Players forfeiting all buy-in amounts.
Players being permanently banned from the Multi-Player Casino.

Note:
These decisions are at the discretion of the House.

Like realwtfsup, I would also like to know which poker rooms allow chip dumping. I know some may assist in transferring of funds to other players behind the scenes, subject to players involved providing their authorisation. But I do not know of any poker room that allows chipdumping on their sites. If you could provide examples that would be great as I would like to contact them direct and find out what their policies regarding chip dumping are. I feel it is important for all players to know this information.

 

[trade]

What sites allow chip dumping?

You have been playing online several years and do not know that chip dumping would be wrong?

My BS meter is on full tilt now.

Geez! Give the guy a break. In retrospect, he didn't use common sense when dumping/ donating/ transferring his chips over, but common sense also makes me conclude that if he thought there was a remote chance the money was going to be confiscated that he would not have taken that risk. He was naive.. don't hang him out to dry because he made a mistake. There were 2 people involved, no one else was put at risk or harmed. Any investigation would prove that. As far as his friend having 2 aliases, when I first registered at Poker333, I tried to register a different alias, thinking I was supposed to do that when I was told I must set up a new account. I had only played at one other prima, and did not know how the network worked at the time... i.e. that when at prima, there are many different sites that people enter through. People make mistakes. Casinos have forgiven mistakes if they are obvious that nothing untoward was intended. eg. people who don't make the playthrough requirements when using bonuses properly... the less reputable casinos might use this as an excuse to confiscate funds, the others return the funds to the account and clearly explain the playthrough requirements. I realize this case is different, and in no way am I insinuating poker 333 is nothing less than reputable, but perhaps a bit rigid (whether that is coming from poker 333 or prima). In this case, it would be preferable if the original funds were returned to each player's accounts and have it explained that what they did is not allowed, so they don't make the same mistake twice. I hope this case is reconsidered.

 

[The Dude]

Like realwtfsup, I would also like to know which poker rooms allow chip dumping. I know some may assist in transferring of funds to other players behind the scenes, subject to players involved providing their authorisation. But I do not know of any poker room that allows chipdumping on their sites. If you could provide examples that would be great as I would like to contact them direct and find out what their policies regarding chip dumping are. I feel it is important for all players to know this information.

Good point. These two (experienced) players - who had known that Prima has taken action against players chip-dumping before - should have asked ahead of time whether or not they could transfer funds. You don't mess around with your real money accounts.

Chip dumping has never been tolerated/allowed in any Prima Poker poker room. Beats me why this is even an issue for discussion.

And this was never a "case" in the first place. The player admitted that he chipdumped from the git-go.

In retrospect, he didn't use common sense when dumping/ donating/ transferring his chips over, but common sense also makes me conclude that if he thought there was a remote chance the money was going to be confiscated that he would not have taken that risk. He was naive.. don't hang him out to dry because he made a mistake. There were 2 people involved, no one else was put at risk or harmed. Any investigation would prove that.

Ignorance of the law is no defense. You may think that there is "no victim" here, but if Prima poker were to let "chip dumping" rules to be selective in nature, then that would be unfair and unjustifiable. I'll spare you the analogies, but wrong is wrong. Simple as that.

 

[kavaman]

allowed maybe not

Yes. I do agree with meister that if they knew they might be doing something wrong they shouldn't have done it.

However i still think that it is not a clear case. As chip dumping was NOT mentioned in the terms of the poker room. If this was about a casino and the player would do something that the casino:s terms and conditions dont have and the casino voided his winnings what would we all say then?

-kavaman