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Possible issue with BLR Tech casinos craps software

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by Eliot Jacobson, Oct 31, 2011.

    Oct 31, 2011
  1. Eliot Jacobson

    Eliot Jacobson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    President, Jacobson Gaming, LLC
    Location:
    Santa Barbara
    Greetings,

    I would like to draw this forum's attention to a thread over at Wizard of Vegas, regarding the software created by BLR Tech, and used by online casinos such as "World Wide Wagering." The thread is investigating a possible issue with fairness of their craps software. A user created videos of several sessions using this software. Those videos demonstrate a strong likelihood of bias in the software against the user.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    The investigation is ongoing.

    Kind regards,

    Eliot
     
    19 people like this.
  2. Nov 1, 2011
  3. binary128

    binary128 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    President
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    clempops4, the thread initiator at tWoV, was amazingly persistent, and inspirationally diligent, in his attempts to get the forum's statisticians around to his side of the blackboard. But I was truly astounded at the amount of data that he included in several of his posts, and the trouble to which he went to put all of this on video and move it all up to youtube. Fortunately, boymimbo went to the time and trouble to go through all of those videos and extract workable data.

    The amount of hard work, and data, that is being displayed here is just huge.

    To me, the water is still a little muddy. The working solution - "OK, you found it, now exploit it!":

    is fantastic.

    But, it is early days. It will be interesting in how this all plays out, especially given the statistics-savvy crew on that forum. (I can tell you, I wouldn't want the team of DorothyGale and boymimbo on my trail if I were the perpetrator of some crime.)

    I had never heard of BLR Technologies before. The specific Sportsbook/Casino in question, World Wide Wagering, has a B rating on SportsbookReview, which isn't bad. However, BLR Tech is also powering the Casino product for the sportsbook Legends, which, with an SBR A+ rating, is one of the top books in the world.

    I'm wondering - who is watching this tWoV thread? BLR Tech? World Wide Wagering? Legends?

    The issue has already made one migration, from tWoV to Casinomeister. Perhaps a more valuable migration, from clempops4's perspective, might be from tWoV to SportsbookReview.

    I suspect that the Casino for World Wide Wagering is on very the edge of their radar screen. It's entirely possible that World Wide Wagering is not even aware of Casinomeister, or tWoV.

    Chris
     
    2 people like this.
  4. Nov 1, 2011
  5. Eliot Jacobson

    Eliot Jacobson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    President, Jacobson Gaming, LLC
    Location:
    Santa Barbara
    The evidence is now overwhelming that the BLR Tech craps software is rogue. Details will come out soon. In the mean time, I advise not playing at any casino that runs their software.
     
    7 people like this.
  6. Nov 1, 2011
  7. binary128

    binary128 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    President
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I just saw the latest posts on tWoV thread. Agreed; pretty overwhelming.

    If someone here can start a thread on SportsbookReview about this issue, then I think that this would be an appropriate thing to do. As I mentioned, the current users of this software may not even be aware that Casinomeister exists. I think it is safe to say that they know of SportsbookReview.
     
  8. Nov 1, 2011
  9. DarkMage

    DarkMage Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Bond Fund Investor
    Location:
    USA
    I have played very little on this software but I blown maybe $200-300 on it over the past year.

    At the time I just shrugged it off as bad luck and never returned but now that the software is in question I will absolutely not stand for being cheated.

    I have fired off an email to the sportsbook using this software that I used and will continue to go from there.


    I can accept to LOSE I will not accept being CHEATED :mad:

    Even if it was for a small amount of money...I don't care :mad:
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Nov 1, 2011
  11. bb28

    bb28 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    US
    FYI

    Here is some info I found. You must register/login in order to see the link..

    Hope it's ok to copy and paste because it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't disappear.

    BLR TECHNOLOGIES, INC.


    BLR Technologies offers a gaming platform featuring sports and casino software. The sports software offers a variety of bet types and sporting events. The casino software is integrated with BLR Sports, but also has a stand alone solution with its own management tools and features. The casino client enables any interface which supports XML Communication including cell phones, handhelds, pocket pcs, etc. Available games include a variety of video poker games, card games, table games, slots and a progressive jackpot on Caribbean Poker.
    See the Online Casino City listing for BLR Technologies, Inc.


    Products and Services
    Games Software > Sportsbook Software
    BLR Sportsbook provides a complete system which encompasses all aspects needed to develop and operate a sports wagering website or business. It is very easy for your customers to navigate trough all the types of sports offered and place wagers on their favorite teams, access their plays for the day and check their balances. BLR Tech also provides a complete management system that allows you as a bookmaker to have complete control of your organization whether it is line moving or creating reports to analyze betting and player performance.
    Games Software > Racebook Software
    BLR Racebook allows you to take wagers on most of North American Tracks, Australian Tracks and other major horse events, and supports all the following types of bets: straight bets (win/place/show), quinellas, exactas (box and keyed) trifectas, superfectas, daily doubles, pick’s and parlays. The Internet user will find that introducing multiple wagers within one ticket is solely a BLR racebook function, keeping always simplicity in mind our wagering interface allows the horse bettor to easily check their selections and place bets just like they would do at the track.
    Games Software > Casino Software
    BLR Casino software offers you and your players all major casino games such as: Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, Baccarat, Three card poker, American Roulette, Craps, Slot machines and Video Poker. Our casino solutions are engineered to perform at great speed and accuracy. BLR Casino provides a comprehensive backend reporting system, including current player games and hands; log-in information and pending game information. We have invested all of our efforts on creating the most visually spectacular and distinctive flash based gaming interface. We offer a multiple selection of skin designs for you to choose from.

    Headquarters
    Physical Address: Mailing Address:
    Centro Comercial Plaza Mayor
    2da Etapa 3er Piso, Rohrmoser
    Pavas, San José
    Costa Rica
    PO Box 2040-2050
    San Pedro, San José
    Costa Rica

    Phone: +506 2 210 7980
    Fax: +506 2 210 7985
    Website: You must register/login in order to see the link.
    Email: This email is not visible to you.

    Upper Management: Mr. Javier Pereira, Chief Executive Officer
    This email is not visible to you.
    Marketing: Mr. Andrew Leetz, International Business Development
    This email is not visible to you.

    Additional Information
    Date Established: August, 1998
    Slot Games Offered by BLR Technologies, Inc.
    Alien Abduction Kingdom of Poseidon Roman Colosseum
    Caribbean Island Monster Truck Spaceship Battle
    Gold Fever Ninja Attack Super Nova
    Great Circus Red Planet The Maya's Secret
    Jurassic Adventure Robot Escape Treasure of the Nile

    Gaming Sites Using BLR Technologies, Inc. Software
    5Dimes Casino and Sportsbook Legends Sports World Wide Wagering
    Heritage Sports Loose Lines Casino and Sportsbook
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Nov 1, 2011
  13. boymimbo

    boymimbo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Software Consultant
    Location:
    Niagara Falls, ON
    Cannot confirm BLR Casinos...

    Of the five casinos listed, I can only confirm that LEGENDS and WORLD-WIDE WAGERING are using BLR software. Heritage requires a login while the other two sites appear to not be using this software anymore.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Nov 1, 2011
  15. DarkMage

    DarkMage Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Bond Fund Investor
    Location:
    USA
    Throw Legendz Sportsbook&Casino into the pit Mr.Casinomeister

    this is an email I got back from them

     
  16. Nov 1, 2011
  17. boymimbo

    boymimbo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Software Consultant
    Location:
    Niagara Falls, ON
    This is not bad luck.

    The Wizard himself ran a sample of runs using real money and completed a statistical analysis on the results. There are live videos from the OP over at WOV that confirms the results now for more than 700 comeout rolls. DorothyG and I both ran statistical analysis on the OP's results. This is NOT bad luck. The results have been repeated and the sample sizes have been substantial enough to prove beyond any reasonable amount that there is a problem.

    On DON'T PASS:
    We're talking about 52 come out 3s on 2,600 come out rolls. The expected value is 148.6. And 528 7s (expected value 445). On the numbers, the points were made 60% on the 4 (EV 33.3%), 68% on the 5 and 9 (EV 40%), 71% on the 6 (EV 45.4%), 70% on the 8 (EV 45.4%), and 58% on the 10 (EV 33.3%). And this is over 1,813 come out rolls. All videod, all confirmable, and all statistically next to impossible in a fair game.

    PASS Line:
    On 600 come out rolls, there were 45 sevens (expected value 100), and 54 3s (Expected 33.33). On the numbers, the points were made 9 times in 59 samples on the 10 and 5 times in 40 samples on the 10. The 6 and 8 were made 44 times in 175 samples. Once again, all videod, confirmable and statistically next to impossible in a fair game.

    The Wizard of Vegas site gets plenty of claims of bad luck all of the time and usually, an analysis confirms that the sample size was too small to confirm anything. In this case, the math experts (I am not really one of them) have weighed in and confirmed that the result sets show an undeniable and obvious bias.

    I have no interest in any of the sportsbooking sites. I have no memberships to any online casino and haven't made a single wager online in my lifetime. Online casinos should be making enough money on their casinos through edge alone and shouldn't be cheating its users.
     
    3 people like this.
  18. Nov 1, 2011
  19. Eliot Jacobson

    Eliot Jacobson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    President, Jacobson Gaming, LLC
    Location:
    Santa Barbara
    I posted this on WoV and am re-posting it here.

    I have a cash account on a casino that runs the BLR Tech software.

    I first ran 100 rolls on the DON’T; my results were consistent that I was playing a rigged version.

    I decided to create a simple test to force the software to exhibit an extreme bias. I exclusively played the pass line. If a point was established, I then bought every number 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, meaning that a 7 was the killer number to get if the software was rogue.

    In 100 rolls, I established a point on 74 of them. After establishing a point, the first roll was a “7” on 41 out of those 74 points. The expected number is 12.33 with a standard deviation of 3.21, putting this result 8.94 standard deviations above expectation.

    Out of the total of 135 rolls made once a point was established, 63 of them were “7”. The expected number is 22.5 with a standard deviation of 4.33, putting this 9.35 standard deviations above expectation, or about 1-in-4500000000000000000000.

    A chi-squared test on the distribution of rolls after the come out gave a result that was 1-in-1.42x10^14.

    I strongly advise not playing at any casino that operates this software.

    I lost about $300 in 100 rolls playing this strategy, at $1 per wager + $1 buy bets.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2011
    5 people like this.
  20. Nov 1, 2011
  21. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Is it possible to outsmart this rigged software to ensure you WIN more than you should?

    If this is possible, the casino will be forced to admit the game is not random in order to void the bets.

    A few UK Fruit Machines got completely hammered like this because players figured out how the games worked and outsmarted them:D

    In rigging software, the possibilty is introduced that the cheating algorithm itself has a programming error in it, which is how UK style "compensated" games ended up being the victims of "emptiers".
     
  22. Nov 1, 2011
  23. boymimbo

    boymimbo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Software Consultant
    Location:
    Niagara Falls, ON
    One of the posters at WoV suggested this as well and we're hoping a volunteer to give this a try. Eliot's attempt to buy all of the numbers after the come out roll resulted in much more bias. Suggestions included laying other numbers after come-out and trying a doey-don't (betting the don't and pass at the same time) and betting heavily on the 12. The programmers probably have taken this into account but it would be interesting to give it a try.
     
  24. Nov 1, 2011
  25. Eliot Jacobson

    Eliot Jacobson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    President, Jacobson Gaming, LLC
    Location:
    Santa Barbara
    I've tried to figure out how to beat it by turning its programming against it, and I've conducted numerous experiments, including those suggested at WoV. I've not been able to gain an edge.

    One particular experiment is worthy of note: I established a pass line point for $1, (I believe it was 5), then I bought each of the numbers 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 for $1, then I put $10 on "Any 7". I hit roll and the program froze for about 30 seconds before an "8" was rolled. It wasn't lag because the "thinking" animation continued to run.
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Nov 1, 2011
  27. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I've seen this on UK Fruit Machines when they are being "outsmarted" by a clever player trying an "emptier" or "method" that involves turning the coded bias against the house.

    This seems to suggest that this is a "compensated" Craps game set to a specific RTP, and what you are seeing is the software changing so as to enforce this RTP that is naturally lower than the RTP of a random Craps game it represents. Such programming allows a game to run to a set RTP that is not "natural" without making it too obvious to the player that they are playing anything other than a random game.

    I do not know enough about Craps to even attempt to manipulate this software. It is possible that the sportsbook are knowingly running rigged casino software so that they can subsidise the sportsbook to allow it to offer better odds than would be possible on a "fair" book that offered competitive odds, yet not so competitive that it lost money overall.

    If there is no programming error, and the game has been programmed to defend against the kind of thing a UK Fruit machine player would try if they thought a game was "compensated", it is quite possible that the software cannot be beaten, but you WOULD (as seems to be the case) be able to force it to cheat even MORE obviously whilst gathering data that will damn it for certain.


    Maybe the Craps is not the ONLY game that it rigged, but the low house edge on "natural" craps makes the gap, and thus the bias, between the natural and "compensated" RTP much more obvious.
     
  28. Nov 2, 2011
  29. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York
    It's obvious the software is rigged; but is it rigged knowing and countering where the money is being bet, or is it a case similar to class 11 machines with preset RTP's? If it is a class 11 machine it's not illegal unless of course they advertised the games were random.
     
  30. Nov 2, 2011
  31. Jufo

    Jufo Three-toed sloth

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Finland
    To me it looks like the former and not class 11 machine. Besides if the game rules state that it is a game of craps, then I don't think they are allowed to tamper the odds.
     
  32. Nov 2, 2011
  33. binary128

    binary128 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    President
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I've thought about this ever since your thread "Online Video Poker (maybe)". If I wanted to include a "Policy Statement" in Galewind's Help files specifically declaring games as Class III rather than Class II, to what games should I apply this Policy?

    Video Pokers: Yes. But what other games would need this? (In that thread I raised the thought that there might even be a Class II and a Class III Slot machine.)

    However, on consideration, I'd have to conclude that if someone is indeed attempting to run what they might argue is a "Class II" table game (Craps, Roulette, any of the table card games), then this would be fraud.
     
  34. Nov 2, 2011
  35. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York
    I am by no means qualified whats so ever to classify your games. I've only recently just learned that these classifications even existed. Yet, based on all the information you offered throughout this thread and forum how your games actually function, (confirming true randomness) and not knowing if there are certain software requirements to be classed a 111 series, I would guess they are Class 111.

    Not sure if it would be safe to publicly advertise they are Class 111 games, without confirming they do in fact conform to all the software requirements (if any) to be labeled as such.
     
  36. Nov 3, 2011
  37. Pocketdiggers77

    Pocketdiggers77 Gamester

    Occupation:
    Systems Analyst
    Location:
    On Top of Old Smokey
    I have played BLR software at 5dimes and Legends. I have emailed both of them about what is going on and Legends is saying their software is different. It didn't look different to me. Same games and same graphics but I think they Are saying their software uses a third party hardware random number generator. Is this possible? Is there anyway someone can audit their software? Here is what they said

    Greetings from Legends!

    Us and 5 dimes use a complete different platform. Our Casino engine is powered by certified hardware random number generators (RNGs) used by the most respected gaming operations around the world which will prevent issues like the mentioned on the post from happening. Please refer them to this link if they come on the live chat or email: You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Best Regards,

    Jason Devore
     
  38. Nov 3, 2011
  39. Pocketdiggers77

    Pocketdiggers77 Gamester

    Occupation:
    Systems Analyst
    Location:
    On Top of Old Smokey
    I can also confirm Heritage Sports does NOT use BLR. They use DGS. I have an account there and it has been this for as long as I can remember. I'm sure Heritage is furious about this. Legends on the other hand is taking a completely differnt approach and 5Dimes did the smart thing and removed the software.
     

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