Number 41

[johnsteed]

Favorite, or favourite, that is the question?

***

Spearmaster

Yes, he was getting old. Yes, he was injured and really didn't belong on the field. But it should still never have come down to letting the ball roll between your legs.

It's almost always the skipper who gets blamed in the end, and I never really heard anyone say that John McNamara made some costly mistakes. Ultimately, it will come down to the players (and his performance), but again, the bench boss was a bit off on his judgement that day.


Oh well, dead issue, that subject will likely be brought-up tonight at some bar in Boston, and it'll get heated, and in the end will result in a fist-fight. And it'll happen tomorrow, and the day after...

Great points Spearmaster.


For the record, how about a short-list of your favorite players? Doesn't have to be the greatest.


Steed


***

 

[spearmaster]

It's almost always the skipper who gets blamed in the end, and I never really heard anyone say that John McNamara made some costly mistakes. Ultimately, it will come down to the players (and his performance), but again, the bench boss was a bit off on his judgement that day.

McNamara may have made mistakes - kind of like Pete Carroll did at the Rose Bowl, like wasting his last timeout, or trying to do the Trojan thing and ramming the ball up the middle on 4th and 2... but ultimately you can't blame him for those mistakes. It's the mistakes on the field which magnify the bad calls by the coach. And the Trojans made too many.

What would be MUCH worse is to get saddled with a big-headed idiot who thinks that macho is the way to the pennant. Not only that, the Mets were weighed down by Bobby Valentine for WAY too many years.

Ultimately, Buckner committed a Little League blooper. The very first thing you are taught is to make sure the ball does not get between your legs. That is probably a mistake he never ever made up until that one moment in time.

Favorite players? You know my one favorite player... LOL... another one I felt sorry for was Charlie Hustle, though he probably deserved what he got. His teammate Johnny Bench was one hell of a catcher.

Willie Mays, the Bambino and Hank Aaron would be on my list because I love long-ball hitters... can't say Mark McGwire was on my list because I hardly ever saw him play ball though I went to USC at the same time he did...

Joltin' Joe and Mickey Mantle were before my time but they'd be on my shortlist...

Cal Ripken Jr for sheer guts and determination, though I never thought much of him as a player, maybe because I never paid much attention to the Orioles...

Clemens is on that list, as is Nolan Ryan, I guess in choosing Seaver as the player to follow I kind of paid much more attention to pitchers...

... and as you can see there is a dearth of infielders

 

[Daffy]

More Buckner

Although many factors can be cited as to why the Red Sox lost the 1986 World Series, Buckner's error remains the popular focus of the blame. Moreover, the mistake was added to the lore of the Curse of the Bambino.
**************
According to a popular Bostonian joke, the distraught Buckner threw himself in front of a locomotive in grief after his fielding error. The train passed between his legs.
***************
"The Bill Buckner Bridge" is also a nickname given to the Zakim Bunker Hill Bridge(in Boston) on which cars pass through the bridge's Y-shaped "legs".
***************
Buckner has denied any lingering bitterness over the 1986 Series fiasco, pointing out that he was a key member of the team that year. He hit 8 home runs that September, with 22 RBIs and a .340 average, missing only three games. He drove in over 100 runs for the season.
***************
Buckner's willingness to play injured may have contributed to his famous 1986 World Series error.
*******************************************************
Am working on my all-time team...another good idea JS !!!

the dUck

 

[Daffy]

My Team

Catcher-Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez, Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra

1st Base-Lou Gehrig, Eddie Murray, Harmon Killebrew

2nd Base-Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Jackie Robinson

Shortstop-Cal Ripkin, Ozzie Smith, Derek Jeter

3rd Base-George Brett, Alex Rodriguez, Pete Rose

LF-Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Carl Yastrzemski

CF-Joe Dimaggio, Willie Mays, Mickie Mantle

RF-Hank Aaron, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente

Pitchers-Steve Carlton, Whitey Ford, Juan Marichel, Nolan Ryan, Sandy Kofax

Relievers-Dennis Eckersley, Mariano Rivera, Rich "Goose" Gossage

Managers-Sparky Anderson, Casey Stengel, Earl Weaver

Ballpark-Fenway


***First listed on position players is my starter. (based on their best years and overall career)

***I picked a staff for the pitchers and managers...if it's one game...Ford would start...Eckersley would close...Anderson would manage.

No...the Duke didn't make my all-time. He was my hero until age 10 or so...

the dUck

 

[KasinoKing]

Will you guys please stop talking about cricket! It bores the pants off me!

 

[Daffy]

Cricket???

Isn't that the game where everyone wears the same uniform, uses those flat little paddles, and the score ends up 200 to 199??? I agree...cricket is boring.

I was wondering KK...did you happen to catch the Rose Bowl...my Texas Longhorns spanked those nasty USC Trojans to win the National Championship...lol. (poor Spear)

the dUck

 

[andyhinckley]

Isn't baseball like our rounders we used to play at school KK?

But what gets me is american football!!!! rugby players with padding!!!!!

I would love to see a top american football team play (without their helmets and shoulder padding) against Link Removed (invalid URL) rugby team!!!!!!!

 

[johnsteed]

The game of "ball"...

***


Andyhinckley

Isn't baseball like our rounders we used to play at school KK?

You're quite right Mr. Hinckley.


Excerpt taken from "TRIPMYEGO.com"...

* Baseball didn't just come out of left field. The game evolved from an old English game called rounders. Like today's baseball, rounders was played with a bat and ball on a field with bases. But to get a player out in rounders, a fielder had to hit the runner with the ball. Ouch! Players called this practice soaking or plugging. American Colonists played rounders as early as the 1700s. They called the game town ball, the Massachusetts game, and sometimes base ball.

The first known organized baseball team in the U.S., was the 1845 "New York Knickerbocker Base Ball Club", founded by Alexander J. Cartwright. The rules had been altered, and they eliminated the plugging (amongst of host of new rules that were implemented).


Sidenote: "rounders", Matt Damon, Massachusetts... it's all starting to come together now...


Steed


***

 

[johnsteed]

***


Looking at your baseball lists,


Spearmaster

Willie Mays, the Bambino and Hank Aaron would be on my list because I love long-ball hitters... can't say Mark McGwire was on my list because I hardly ever saw him play ball though I went to USC at the same time he did...

Well Spearmaster, if you don't know your infields, you certainly know your outfields.


Wow, you went to USC! Barry Bonds almost went to USC, around that time. But you know who DID go to your school, the same time McGwire was playing? Randy Johnson!!! Also, way before you were going there, Fred Lynn as well as "Kong" Dave Kingman had attended USC as well.


Sidenote: Legendary USC baseball coach, Rod Dedeaux passed-away this past December at the age of 91.


***


Daffy, great list and great detail. I was curious about your picking Ivan Rodriguez over Bench or Berra, but you know what, by the time his career is finished, he may very well rank with them, and maybe even surpass them. He's most likely going to be the only catcher to record 3,000 hits, if he keeps going for a few more years.


Rod Carew is also an interesting choice at 2nd. He wasn't a very good defensive second-baseman, and would eventually be shifted to 1st after Killebrew retired. Rod Carew "The Jew" was probably the best hitter for average during the '70s.


Sidenote: While I'm quite sure that Spearhead and Daffy know what I'm talking about, but IF you don't know, Rod Carew "The Jew" was actually his nickname after he had converted to Judaism. Oddly enough, he's African American (see, I'm being politically correct ). Not something that usually happens.


I like how you have Bonds starting in your LF! Not too many will take him over Ted Williams, but I would. Bonds DID play awesome defense in his earlier years, and if his arm were stronger, he would have been great in CF. If there was never the steriod issue looming over his head, I wouldn't hesitate to say that his 18-year progression at the plate is unparalled. I still think he's the greatest. :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy


Here's what my list (like you, with the depth of 3 at every position) would look like...


C - Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella

1B - Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Eddie Murray

2B - Joe Morgan, Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins

3B - Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Eddie Matthews

SS - Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken

LF - Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Rickey Henderson

CF - Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle

RF - Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson

P - Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove, Pete Alexander

Relievers - Dennis Eckersley, Mariano Rivera, Rich Gossage

Managers - Joe McCarthy, Casey Stengal, Bobby Cox

Ballpark - Wrigley Frield (although I love SBC part the most)


Oddly enough, I thought your list of relievers is precisely how I would have ranked them.


Lots of fun!!!


***

 

[Daffy]

***


Looking at your baseball lists,


Spearmaster




Well Spearmaster, if you don't know your infields, you certainly know your outfields.


Wow, you went to USC! Barry Bonds almost went to USC, around that time. But you know who DID go to your school, the same time McGwire was playing? Randy Johnson!!! Also, way before you were going there, Fred Lynn as well as "Kong" Dave Kingman had attended USC as well.


Sidenote: Legendary USC baseball coach, Rod Dedeaux passed-away this past December at the age of 91.


***


Daffy, great list and great detail. I was curious about your picking Ivan Rodriguez over Bench or Berra, but you know what, by the time his career is finished, he may very well rank with them, and maybe even surpass them. He's most likely going to be the only catcher to record 3,000 hits, if he keeps going for a few more years.

Sunday night baseball two years ago...Jon Miller and Joe Morgan in the booth...run on first (good speed)...batter bunts...ball dies between home and mound..."Pudge" jumps like a cat and throws out the runner at second!!!
Joe Morgan says, "WOW...if Johnny had a cannon...Pudge has a laser!!!"

I saw all three play...Pudge is the best...most teams don't even try him...he routinely picks 10-12 runners off first a season. One of the best bad ball hitters ever.


Rod Carew is also an interesting choice at 2nd. He wasn't a very good defensive second-baseman, and would eventually be shifted to 1st after Killebrew retired. Rod Carew "The Jew" was probably the best hitter for average during the '70s.

If I was down to my last out...I'd like Carew at the plate.


Sidenote: While I'm quite sure that Spearhead and Daffy know what I'm talking about, but IF you don't know, Rod Carew "The Jew" was actually his nickname after he had converted to Judaism. Oddly enough, he's African American (see, I'm being politically correct ). Not something that usually happens.


I like how you have Bonds starting in your LF! Not too many will take him over Ted Williams, but I would. Bonds DID play awesome defense in his earlier years, and if his arm were stronger, he would have been great in CF. If there was never the steriod issue looming over his head, I wouldn't hesitate to say that his 18-year progression at the plate is unparalled. I still think he's the greatest. :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

I'm really torn over the steroid issue. They call it cheating...but you still have to put the bat on the ball. Bonds has the best "eye" for the strike zone I've ever seen. Hits for average and power.


Here's what my list (like you, with the depth of 3 at every position) would look like...


C - Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella (fine)

1B - Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Eddie Murray (fine)

2B - Joe Morgan, Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins (fine)

3B - Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Eddie Matthews (Brett was a great hitter)

SS - Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken (I put A-rod at 3rd...his Yankee position. Ozzie covered more ground than these guys. But good choices.)

LF - Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Rickey Henderson (fine)

CF - Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle (fine)

RF - Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson (fine)

P - Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove, Pete Alexander
(Pitcher was hardest decision...so many great ones. You put Seaver in for Spear??? LOL)
Relievers - Dennis Eckersley, Mariano Rivera, Rich Gossage (You must be a genious...lol.)

Managers - Joe McCarthy, Casey Stengal, Bobby Cox (fine)


Oddly enough, I thought your list of relievers is precisely how I would have ranked them.


Lots of fun!!!


***

Glaring ommissions on both lists are Tony Gwynn, Paul Molitor, and Brooks Robinson.

Great Fun!!!

the dUck

 

[texas hooters]

Cricket???

Isn't that the game where everyone wears the same uniform, uses those flat little paddles, and the score ends up 200 to 199??? I agree...cricket is boring.

I was wondering KK...did you happen to catch the Rose Bowl...my Texas Longhorns spanked those nasty USC Trojans to win the National Championship...lol. (poor Spear)

the dUck

LOL Hook 'em Horns

 

[spearmaster]

[qtuoe]Legendary USC baseball coach, Rod Dedeaux passed-away this past December at the age of 91. [/quote]
Actually, he passed away on Jan 6th (yesterday)... another great man for the books.

And yes, Randy Johnson was also there at the time.

I was wondering KK...did you happen to catch the Rose Bowl...my Texas Longhorns spanked those nasty USC Trojans to win the National Championship...lol. (poor Spear)

Spanked? More like do or die... and Vince Young did. Great game, great finish, just sad that USC didn't win.

 

[spearmaster]

Catcher-Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez, Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra

1st Base-Lou Gehrig, Eddie Murray, Harmon Killebrew

2nd Base-Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Jackie Robinson

Shortstop-Cal Ripkin, Ozzie Smith, Derek Jeter

3rd Base-George Brett, Alex Rodriguez, Pete Rose

LF-Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Carl Yastrzemski

CF-Joe Dimaggio, Willie Mays, Mickie Mantle

RF-Hank Aaron, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente

Pitchers-Steve Carlton, Whitey Ford, Juan Marichel, Nolan Ryan, Sandy Kofax

Relievers-Dennis Eckersley, Mariano Rivera, Rich "Goose" Gossage

Managers-Sparky Anderson, Casey Stengel, Earl Weaver

Ballpark-Fenway

I don't know Pudge - like I said, anyone after the 80's... LOL... Clemente at RF is also a great pick. Little surprised you left out the Babe though...

Pitchers - I'll give you Koufax, Ryan, Ford... but you sure you could put Carlton 1st and Marichal 3rd... and leave out Clemens and Seaver altogether?

Otherwise, your list is fantastic

C - Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella

1B - Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Eddie Murray

2B - Joe Morgan, Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins

3B - Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Eddie Matthews

SS - Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken

LF - Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Rickey Henderson

CF - Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle

RF - Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson

P - Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove, Pete Alexander

Relievers - Dennis Eckersley, Mariano Rivera, Rich Gossage

Managers - Joe McCarthy, Casey Stengal, Bobby Cox

Ballpark - Wrigley Frield (although I love SBC part the most)

Will take issue with Rickey because, although a fantastic player, he had a bad attitude, especially when he was with the Mets I'd definitely have Yaz in his place.

Honestly don't know Pete Alexander - but otherwise, another fantastic list.

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Of all the positions, the one I found most competitive was RF - with only Aaron making both lists. Pitchers always going to be opinionated so can't argue with that - all on both lists were definitely great pitchers.

My #1 manager would have been Casey, hands down. As for ballpark, you got 'em both but a slight edge to the Green Monster.

 

[johnsteed]

***

Daffy

Glaring ommissions on both lists are Tony Gwynn, Paul Molitor, and Brooks Robinson.

Those are three great ambassadors of the game (ignoring Molitor's earlier addictions, Robinson's financial problems, and Tony Gwynn eating EVERYTHING in sight). All 1st or 2nd ballot HOFer's, but not amongst the elite of the elite in performance. Sure, Molitor and Gwynn were especially gifted hitters, for average, but not secondary averages (like slugging %, OBP which is combining walks, hit-by-pitches with batting average). I'll say this, maybe had Molitor not lost so much time in the first half of his career to injuries, and had played 3rd base (because, he was a pretty good defensive player at various positions) for his entire career, I'd think that he could have come close to 4,000 hits and surely would have made my list. But, at which position would you put Molitor under? He played so many, and he went into the HOF as a DH. He's certainly the greatest DH if you ask me (if we include that on our lists).


Gwynn, was once an exceptional fleet-a-foot fielder and baserunner. But he didn't draw many walks, and he could have done so much more in his later years had he just took better care of his body. I would never take Gwynn over Frank Robinson. Robinson was on par with Aaron and Mays in many ways, but is often forgotten about (probably because he missed reaching 3,000 hits).


Brooks Robinson, like Ozzie Smith, is considered one of the greatest defensive specialists to have played the game. I'm not so sure he deserved EVERY one of his Gold Gloves, but nevertheless, he was the best at his position... for defense. His hitting though, not better than Boggs, Schmidt, Brett, or Matthews. And it's often said that Schmidt was just as good defensively as Robinson. Actually, though I do like Brooks Robinson, and he is a HOFer, aside from a couple very good years with the bat, he really wasn't a very good hitter.


A few guys I had left off the list, were Tris Speaker, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Grover Alexander, Craig Biggio (who's still quite good), Greg Maddux, and although he's far from finished, Pedro Martinez (who's the best I've seen with my eyes to date). And I could go with Yaz over Henderson, but Rickey is Rickey!!!


Although it may look like I inserted Seaver for Spear, nope. Seaver was statistically the best pitcher of his era, and he didn't play for very good teams. Carlton, it can be argued, was just as good. And maybe that's true, but I think that Seaver is amongst the greatest ever.


It's difficult comparing players of different eras, because of the changes in the rules, or the mound. While Joe Morgan might agree with this, today's pitcher have MAJOR disadvantages compared to the pitchers from the '60s with the raised mound (hello Sandy Koufax and spacious Dodger Stadium), and although they aren't thought of to be as good as those from the '60s, I would disagree. But getting back to Seaver, he's amongst the elite (some will argue he's the greatest EVER). Nolan Ryan, great K's, great heat, played for a LONG time (which fans and sportwriters love), but IMO, not in the inner-circle of the elite. He may have been popular, and exciting, but I think he was overrated.


George Brett, personally, was greater for his team than Schmidt was for his. I know that may sound ridiculous, because I (and many people) think that Schmidt was THE best 3rd baseman. Why?


- Schmidt wasn't always easy to deal with. Moody, but it's hard not to be playing in Philadelphia (toughest crowd in sports... yes, moreso than Boston fans).

- Brett was the face of the KC Royals, Schmidt is just one of the faces of the Phillies.

- They both won Championships, but Brett's World Series dominance is far more memorable. He almost hit .400 in the early '80s!!!

- They were both drafted the same year, and Brett was actually picked ahead of Schmidt.

- Brett was a great leader. At least, that's the general perception.

But...

While Brett was a very good all-around hitter, Schmidt had exceptional power and plate discipline. Brett was a solid defensive player (Gold Glove level at various times), but he was notorious for looking-off and losing focus during a game, despite being ultra-competitive. Schmidt is compared to Brooks Robinson for being THE best defensive 3rd-baseman. It's often viewed that Schmidt and Morgan were the best players of their generation (in their respective leagues) between the Mays and Bonds eras. Hey, I like Brett over Schmidt myself, but I think that Schmidt was slightly better.


Okay, dUck, great feedback.


Spearmaster

Actually, he passed away on Jan 6th (yesterday)... another great man for the books.

My mistake, but we're both incorrect (lol). You're off by one lousy day. I'm off by over a month.

He had a stroke on December the 2nd, and he passed-away on the 5th of this month, in Glendale. I just checked-it-up at the USC site, your old stompin' grounds.

cont...

Will take issue with Rickey because, although a fantastic player, he had a bad attitude, especially when he was with the Mets I'd definitely have Yaz in his place.

I suppose at times, only Rickey likes Rickey. I get a kick out of him though. He's still trying to get back into the game. It must KILL him that Julio Franco signed a 2-year contract to play with the Mets this coming season. By the time his contract is through, he'll be 49!!! Like Rickey, great physical condition STILL... the Braves will miss him.

Spearmaster, c'mon, we can overlook one bad year with the Mets. It was towards the end of his career (assuming that he IS finished), and 1-year doesn't make a bad career. His first year, he was very good for them. Think of Willie with the Mets, or as you mentioned ealier, Duke Snider at the end of his career. Bobby Valentine wasn't showing Rickey any love...





Steed

***

 

[Daffy]

I was just teasing...great game.

USC had a super run...34 in a row...one of the best all-time.

Concerning the USC wasted time-out...I think Texas fouled up...

Texas scored with 19 seconds left to take a 1pt lead...lined up for 2pt conversion...

It is possible that Vince Young (Texas) could have take the snap and run backwards until time had expired...

Wherever/if USC tackled him...would just be a botched conversion followed by a kickoff...USC might have got one play from their own twenty...

Another point...every time Young made big scramble yards was to his right...looks like USC would have tried a "spy" to that side...you can bet the pros will.

the dUck

 

[Daffy]

Arlington

Aside from the absolute misery of missing the playoffs every damn year...it is heaven to have the Texas Rangers only 20 miles away...especially since inter-league play began.

I've seen alot of HOFrs (and soon to be HOFrs) "live" over the years...

George Brett was a one man wrecking crew to my Rangers.

Had season tickets on the 3rd base rail for three years...Buddy Bell was great for the Rangers.

Great thing about 3rd base seats...they were right by the visitors dugout...got a closeup visit with a lot of great players. Reggie Jackson was always very generous with his time at our park...especially with the kids.

Twice got seats behind home with Ryan pitching...the speed was unreal!!!
I swear the ball got bigger as it came in...optical illusion...I guess.
(These seats were gold!!! Almost impossible to get.)

I remember late one Wednesday afternoon...a vender called and said he had two tickets behind the Ranger's dugout if I wanted them. I said sure...but as it turns out we had other plans...I passed them on to a friend. Of course, this is the night Kenny Rogers pitches his "perfect" game...dammit.

Punchline...my friend passed the tickets on to his cousin...lol.

the dUck

 

[johnsteed]

***

Daffy

I passed them on to a friend. Of course, this is the night Kenny Rogers pitches his "perfect" game...dammit.

Now, that would have been something. Great story. You know what would been just as good though, the week or two after at Ameriquest Field, when he freaked-out on that camera-man. THAT would have been exceptionally fun to watch as well.


And on Brett's domination over your RANGERS, he certainly had the Blue Jays number as well. Geez, I wonder had the Jays won that series in '85, maybe Bobby Cox could have stuck around for a bit longer.


Great, great, rich, wonderful, colorful stories gents! :notworthy


Steed

***

 

[jetset]

Isn't baseball like our rounders we used to play at school KK?

But what gets me is american football!!!! rugby players with padding!!!!!

I would love to see a top american football team play (without their helmets and shoulder padding) against Link Removed (invalid URL) rugby team!!!!!!!

Padding or no, those American football players are big and very athletic fellows, and I think they would probably give a good account of themselves, although it would be a bruiser of a game!

You don't see too much of "rounders" these days - almost all the play now is "softball". It was a great game, especially being able to nail a runner with a really hard stinger that not only put him out, but hurt him to boot! I wince even today at the pain of one guy who was hit in a very sensitive place (whilst batting - not running!)

 

[spearmaster]

I was just teasing...great game.

USC had a super run...34 in a row...one of the best all-time.

Concerning the USC wasted time-out...I think Texas fouled up...

Texas scored with 19 seconds left to take a 1pt lead...lined up for 2pt conversion...

It is possible that Vince Young (Texas) could have take the snap and run backwards until time had expired...

Wherever/if USC tackled him...would just be a botched conversion followed by a kickoff...USC might have got one play from their own twenty...

Another point...every time Young made big scramble yards was to his right...looks like USC would have tried a "spy" to that side...you can bet the pros will.

the dUck

Cute idea, Daffy - you might well be right there, but can you see Vince Young backpedaling to waste time? I couldn't... LOL... he wanted to stick it to USC bad and he did it in fine style... he is a #1 draft for sure when he decides its time, and I bet that barring any bad injuries he will find himself a place amongst the all-time greats - or I could be wrong - but that performance in the 4th quarter was simply outstanding, even I didn't feel all that bad getting run over by Vince Young. Greased lightning would have been an understatement.

And as for running to the right - as I was telling someone else, everyone and his grandmother knew what was going to happen on that play - even SI said everyone in the stadium knew what would happen next - but USC did NOT hedge to his right even though they'd been burnt so many times, and yet again he ran right passed everyone without so much as a whiff of the defense being in the area.

That, sadly, was the one play the Trojan defense needed to get it right - and they blew it. A blitz was one possibility, hoping to force him to throw the ball - another one would have been to hedge to his right to make sure he had nowhere to go - and they sat back trying to play zone and got burnt.

This was almost as unforgiveable as trying to run up the middle on 4th and 2 - the essential Trojan play that EVERY team guards against, and you want to run through 4 high-draft NFL prospects? Not too smart, even if it WAS LenDale White. A sweep or even QB draw would almost surely have gotten them 2 yards... Leinart is no slouch, for crying out loud...

Ah well, that's life. I don't think the Trojans or the Trojan faithful will be crying too much over that game, it was truly Vince Young's day and the Trojans will be back again next year with an older and wiser defense

As for Carlton - I'll back down a bit on that one, after all he was with a nothing team for ages... and he WAS one hell of a pitcher. Same with Schmidt, who I'd rank up there with Pete Rose. And Pedro is also an amazing pitcher and very deserving, no doubt.

Seaver on top of his game was untouchable. He never hogged the limelight though, never played to the crowds, he was just a super workhorse who got the done job with amazing consistency. Had he been the live wire that some of the other candidates were, there is no doubt he would be #1 on many more people's lists.

George Brett is another great who belongs on the list. But I tend to agree with Steed's view - he had much better backup - given the same circumstances I also believe Schmidt would have been a shoo-in.

Dedeaux - my bad LOL. It was the 6th here in Bangkok when he passed away and I read the news on CNN... LOL...

Had Rickey retired after going to play cards in the clubhouse, I think he would probably still deserve to be on your lists - he was one of the most exceptional base-runners in the game - but the fact that he's STILL trying to stay in the game makes me feel like he's good for nothing else... and I still will never forgive him for that trip to the clubhouse during the playoffs, no matter how much I dislike Valentine.

All Blacks vs an NFL team?

One day this would be a great sight to see, I fully agree. It would be a high scoring game for sure - the football players will never know how to deal with the continuous flow of rugby - and they'd get penalized for spoiling the ruck every time... LOL... but the All Blacks will never, ever get used to have to dealing with a forward pass - someone like Vince Young would make them look totally foolish.

Size would not be a problem for the NFL players - but the All Blacks have speed as well as size, something most football players are not generally known for.

Rounders? We used to play Kickball... LOL... that's about as close to the same game as it gets... I used to be nicknamed "Lead Toe"... or, more accurately, "Led Toh"...

 

[johnsteed]

***


Spearmaster

Dedeaux - my bad LOL. It was the 6th here in Bangkok when he passed away and I read the news on CNN... LOL...

Hahaha... I'm laughing because I've had that happen to me quite a few times. I forget sometimes that I'm the other side of the globe.


About Henderson, I can certainly understand how he undermined himself throughout his career. I know it bothered people then, and it still does today, when Rickey Henderson picked-up that 3rd base (that he had just stolen... a.k.a. stolen-base for those who don't know what that entails) a good 15-years ago, to eclipse Lou Brock's (who's a class act) record. To announce not only the crowd, but to stare directly at Brock (who was in attendance that day) while doing it, and to say his famous words "Today... I am the greatest!" Self-praising like only Rickey knows how to do. I still roll-over laughing whenever I see footage of that oh-so-memorable day.

Yup, it's easy to understand why people don't like him. I generally don't get too caught-up in who's good and bad in the realm of sports, as far as determining if they were worthy of being praised. In many people's eyes, Cal Ripken Jr. is viewed as an absolute saint, despite the fact that he was considered unapproachable and egotistical (off-camera). I guess what I like about Rickey, was that he never changed over the years, and he's the same guy all the time. His personality flaws are obvious, but we know he's not pretending to be someone he's not...

...AND if he were a S.F. Giant, and he pulled that World Series stunt with them, I'd likely dislike him too.

You mentioned Carlton, and while I love his numbers, especially that '72 season where he won 27 games, and the team had only won 64!!! I used to think that Carlton was the best pitcher of the last 30-years. But you know what, except for Clemens now (and where Pedro is headed), Seaver to me, was still slightly better. Carlton might have played for some pretty awful teams, but so did Seaver.


Steed

***

 

[spearmaster]

Speaking of Lou Brock, he was also truly a great player. And as for eclipsing of records, I remember I was standing in a Sears watching black-and-white TV when Hank Aaron hit #715 - was April 8, 1974 - and he made very little fuss at all, though obviously his team mobbed him at the plate, along with his mother. On top of that, he hit all 715 as a member of the Braves. And what sucks most is that the Braves then traded him that year... some loyalty... after hitting 733 home runs for them.

That was class. Rickey? One day he'll be drinking and wondering what the hell he did with his life and his talents...

BTW, Hank Aaron is *not* the home run king. I suppose you probably know who it is, though...

 

[johnsteed]

In a flash...

***

Sadahura Oh​

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy​

Steed


***

 

[spearmaster]

LMAO... is that the Korean spelling?

Sadaharu Oh was, and still is, a figure of high respect in Japan, despite the fact that he is actually Taiwanese (that's my tie-in). For those of you who didn't know, he hit 868 home runs in his career, though in a slightly inferior league - but MLB observers have said that he would been a major force in the MLB as well had he ever chosen to play there (and of course now you see quite a few Japanese and Korean players in the big leagues).

I never got the chance to play baseball - my father pulled me out of Little League because I got glasses... *sigh*... and I had been drafted by the - you guessed it - Mets. I'd be a great DH for slo-pitch softball though... LMAO...

 

[johnsteed]

***


Spearmaster

LMAO... is that the Korean spelling?

No, I think it would look like this...

니ㅔ햐 에 아

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy​

Sidenote: (shhh, don't tell Spearmaster) I haven't a clue what I just typed. That's just a bunch of jibberish.



Steed

***

 

[johnsteed]

***


Spearmaster

I never got the chance to play baseball - my father pulled me out of Little League because I got glasses... *sigh*... and I had been drafted by the - you guessed it - Mets. I'd be a great DH for slo-pitch softball though... LMAO...

OMG, now that's something. Are putting me on, or is that for real? You were really drafted by the Mets (or a "Little League" team named the METS)? If yes, my hats off to you. Even being drafted, is a big deal. Seriously. And if they were your favorite (favourite ) team growing-up, all-the-better.

If it makes you feel any better, Billy Beane (GM of the Oakland A's) was a top Mets prospect around the time you were probably drafted (also around the time D. Strawberry was drafted), and while he's done a magnificent job in Oakland, with all the skills to be great, he just couldn't do it in the big leagues. That team, sure had a lot of problems though, drugs and everything else (maybe it was a blessing you didn't play for them). Even 20-years later, Lenny Dykstra has be known to have taken steroids if you could believe it.


Steed

***

 

[spearmaster]

Little League Mets... LOL... not a chance in hell I would have ever been spotted by the real Mets... But it was the one team I wanted to play for even in Little League... and I had gotten my wish only for it to be spoiled by a pair of glasses... then I moved to Hong Kong before I got a chance to play high school soccer or football... the only real remaining hope of being a star athlete was to get to the Olympics one way or another as a Hong Kong representative - sadly, that would also never come true even though I was a HK champ in many disciplines.

But I did get to work at the 1984 Olympics as a security supervisor... hence my meeting with Detlef Schrempf, and in 1983 I appeared on That's Incredible, hence my meeting with Fran Tarkenton and that s..t Cathie Lee Crosby... god, life at USC was fun

 

[Daffy]

More baseball...

Must set the record straight on some items...

(1)You guys have been very gracious with my Carlton selection...thanks. I put the position players in order...not the pitchers. I posted if one game...Ford gets the ball. A wiley veteran who excelled in the "big" game.

(2) Cal Ripkin Jr. was all business until his last year. After every game his last year...he would find a place to sit in the stands (with two security guards) and use a new pen to sign autographs until it ran out of ink. Only requirements were that the seekers must converse with him and present only one item. I think his previous demeanor was due to the fact that his whole family was in baseball...they never considered themselves celebrities.

(3) Rickey Henderson was one of the first self-promoters...lol. He revealed a standing bet he used to have with Jose Canseco. If Henderson is on third with less than two outs...Canseco wins $100 if he gets him home and loses $100 if he strands him. According to Henderson...Canseco used to keep him in extra pocket money...lol.

The night Henderson proclaimed himself the "greatest"...he got "upstaged" by another player on all the sports channels and the next day in most of the papers. Then, two years later RH was the "goat" for this same player.

Can you name that player???

the dUck

 

[spearmaster]

Nolan Ryan

(thanks, Google)

 

[johnsteed]

***

Got it!

Nolan Ryan​

I know why he overshadowed Henderson, because of his "no-hitter" (and if memory serves me right, it was against the Blue Jays... and Robert Alomar was his last out...)

Funny story, Robert Alomar was the final out in Nolan Ryan's 7th "no-hitter", but did you know that Sandy Alomar Sr. was the last out in Ryan's very 1st no-hitter.


Am I right?


***

 

[johnsteed]

***


HAHAHA, classic. :notworthy I guess Spearmaster's internet connection is faster than mine. Damn PC Rooms, clogging-up everything. Great stuff!

Hey dUck, what was the second incident involving Ryan? All I can think of was the time Robin Ventura rushed-the-mound, and Ryan started slaughtering him.


Steed

***

 

[spearmaster]

I don't know what happened two years later, but seven years later Rickey was Nolan's 5000th strikeout

oops... don't know where I saw 1998 out of 1993... LOL...

 

[Daffy]

You guys are too good...lol.

Ryan's 7th no-hitter('91)...then Henderson was the 5,000th strikeout('93).

*******************************************************
ESPN Projected NFL draft...

(1)Bush to Houston (already have a QB committment)

(2)Leinart to New Orleans (who are trying to move to Los Angeles because of Katrina)

(3)Young to Tennessee (to eventually replace McNair)

the dUck

 

[spearmaster]

Is Young really going to declare, or are Tennessee going to waste a pick on luck?

 

[johnsteed]

***


Daffy

(3) Rickey Henderson was one of the first self-promoters...lol. He revealed a standing bet he used to have with Jose Canseco. If Henderson is on third with less than two outs...Canseco wins $100 if he gets him home and loses $100 if he strands him. According to Henderson...Canseco used to keep him in extra pocket money...lol.

That caught my eye. Last year with the whole debacle between Canseco and literally EVERYONE in MLB (concerning steroids and many other wild topics) on the other end of the spectrum, Rickey Henderson said he believed a lot of what Canseco had to said about other players in his book. I do like Henderson, maybe he does have the most SB's, but he doesn't have the most credibility either. I'd have to think that by Canseco only having Henderson's support (if you want to call it that), was not the kind of backing he needed to make yourself look good.


Steed

***

 

[Daffy]

Is Young really going to declare, or are Tennessee going to waste a pick on luck?

Not yet declared...but all signs point to "yes" according to ESPN insiders. Onlt thing left for him to attain is the Heisman...not worth the injury risk say the experts.

*********************************************************
Canseco has always been the "clown" of baseball. He was ridiculed to no end over his book "Juice". Pro athletes never embrace those "tell all" books. His allegations rocked baseball...some of the users named were potential HOF selections.

Everyone initially denied everything(except maybe Giambi)...called him a promoter...and testified in Congress that his book was a pack of lies.

However, as time goes on, looks like his book is accurate with only a few slight exaggerations. I haven't read it yet.

To Canseco's credit, he has campaigned that Baseball/Congress should get a better grip on steroid testing before accessing penalties to the players.

According to him(with substantial medical backup)...steroids have a "meta-life" that is impossible to detect how recent the useage.

For example...a player could have been given a steroid by a physician 7-8 years ago to promote healing an injury(this was very common) and it still be in the player's chemical makeup today. It would not be possible under current testing procedures to determine if this steroid was from recent usage or a previous(legal) occasion.

Congress/Baseball in their misplaced "witch hunt"...have completely dismissed these facts. I think some innocents are going to be(have been) embarassed and punished.

Funny...Pres Bush called for a steroid cleanup of college/pro sports in his State of the Union address. Who gets busted??? His friend...Rafael Palmero.
Who's the whistle blower??? Canseco. Both played for Texas when Bush was the owner.

the dUck

 

[johnsteed]

***


Daffy

Funny...Pres Bush called for a steroid cleanup of college/pro sports in his State of the Union address. Who gets busted??? His friend...Rafael Palmero.
Who's the whistle blower??? Canseco. Both played for Texas when Bush was the owner.

That's right. After Palmeiro failed the random testing, I remember a quote from Bush saying that he felt that Palmeiro was his friend (as you had pointed out), and that he believed him, because of his having testified in public. And that was the end of that (with Bush).

In a way, I never fully understood why Bush pushed this thing as hard as he did. What's the hidden agenda? I always wondered if it's because Bonds didn't sign with the RANGERS back in '93 (lol), and that he was looking to get back-at-him with a smear campaign. Seriously though, I seem to recall that it was Bud Selig that beat-out Bush for Commissioner of Baseball, which was the job that Bush really wanted for many years. I guess he was still pissed-off.

It's funny how quickly people will change their perceptions of a player. Two weeks before that, they were talking about how he's a great family man (which, I'd think he still is), a solid teammate, and how wonderful his numbers were. I guess his fans felt cheated, and they literally all turned on him after the steroids debacle was revealed.


cont...

To Canseco's credit, he has campaigned that Baseball/Congress should get a better grip on steroid testing before accessing penalties to the players.

He did do that, and I would have to think that many years from now, he'll be considered some kind of luminary (for cleaning-up the sport). Can't say that I would agree with that per se, because I don't necessarily feel that Canseco stands for justice. He himself has been ticked-off with MLB for quite some time, feeling as though the league was trying to keep him out (when in fact HE was the reason he wasn't in the league any longer).


cont...

To Canseco's credit, he has campaigned that Baseball/Congress should get a better grip on steroid testing before accessing penalties to the players.

According to him(with substantial medical backup)...steroids have a "meta-life" that is impossible to detect how recent the useage.

For example...a player could have been given a steroid by a physician 7-8 years ago to promote healing an injury(this was very common) and it still be in the player's chemical makeup today. It would not be possible under current testing procedures to determine if this steroid was from recent usage or a previous(legal) occasion.

Congress/Baseball in their misplaced "witch hunt"...have completely dismissed these facts. I think some innocents are going to be(have been) embarassed and punished.

(lol) Geez, dUck, I'm starting to wonder if you're a "baseballprimer" member. Too much steroids talk really killed the fun for me, thus I moved-on. Nevertheless, great points.


Sidenote: This is the first stretch in years where I've not heard boo about Barry Bonds.


Steed

***

 

[Daffy]

Thanks JS,

Bush attacks Baseball (using Congress) to get even with Bud Selig...never thought of that.

His State of the Union was sooooo weird..."stop terrorism"..."weapons of mass destruction"..."let's clean up sports".

I figured this was damage control for Bush from Canseco's book since so many Rangers were implicated.
*******************************************************
Bonds was lead story on ESPN thru the summer..."would he play this year???"

He was rehabbing his knee...but speculation was he was trying to get "cleaned up" from steroid cream/lotion.

Incidently...according to Dr Canseco (lol)...cream is not as potent as mainline shot.

Bonds furor subsided when he came back for the final few weeks of the season....of course by then the Terrell Owens/Eagles soap opera was in full swing.

the dUck

 

[johnsteed]

***

Daffy

Bonds furor subsided when he came back for the final few weeks of the season....of course by then the Terrell Owens/Eagles soap opera was in full swing.

And thank GOD for that. That's all I was reading/hearing about for a good year. Being a fan of Bonds, I'm glad that there hasn't been much said about him recently lately, he can focus (not that he ever loses it) on preparing, rather than fielding questions. Since the end of the baseball season, I haven't seen one single article on him in any of the major sports sites (ESPN, Fox Sports, S.I.), just a couple of small references pertaining to him and the GIANTS.

***

cont...

Incidently...according to Dr Canseco (lol)...cream is not as potent as mainline shot.

Hahaha, the "Dr." part is right. I loved how he was promoting steroids, saying how if they're properly injected (with the right dossage), it can make your life that much better (I believe he even said "healthy" if used correctly). I'm sure he has some valid points, but he seems to have been ignoring the oh-so-many side-effects that result from using steroids. He focusses too much on the advantages.

Well, I'll give Jose this much, he's most certainly entertaining.


***

Hey Daffy, Spearmaster (if he's still lurking in the background somewhere) or anyone else for that matter, I'd love to read about who you'd consider to be the "Top-10" ("20") athletes of "All-Time". Any sport you can think of. I guess in some circles, Poker is considered a sport, but I have a difficult time picturing Doyle Brunson or Annie Duke doing anything other than sitting-down... not exactly athlete material.


Steed


***

 

[jetset]

"Hey Daffy, Spearmaster (if he's still lurking in the background somewhere) or anyone else for that matter, I'd love to read about who you'd consider to be the "Top-10" ("20") athletes of "All-Time". Any sport you can think of. I guess in some circles, Poker is considered a sport, but I have a difficult time picturing Doyle Brunson or Annie Duke doing anything other than sitting-down... not exactly athlete material."

Roger Bannister (first 4 minute mile) and Mark Spitzer (record harvest of Olympic gold for swimming) would have to be on such a list imo.

 

[suzecat]

Mark Spitzer: novelist, poet and literary translator (might swim also, but better known as a poet).

Mark Spitz: achieved an Olympic record in 1972 that may never be equaled (seven gold medals). Currently works as a motivational speaker (but does not live in a van by the river).

 

[suzecat]

***

Hey Daffy, Spearmaster (if he's still lurking in the background somewhere) or anyone else for that matter, I'd love to read about who you'd consider to be the "Top-10" ("20") athletes of "All-Time". Any sport you can think of. I guess in some circles, Poker is considered a sport, but I have a difficult time picturing Doyle Brunson or Annie Duke doing anything other than sitting-down... not exactly athlete material.


Steed


***

Hummm, tough assignment. You have to consider the calibre of amazing athletes who have graced all sports.

Football:

Joe Montana: too bad he's doing so much TV work now.

Jerry Rice: amazing wide receiver; less amazing dancer.

Baseball:

Nolan Ryan: ditto on the TV work.

Hockey:

Wayne Gretzky. Just whisper the name and people pay attention.


Oh well, that's a start.

 

[jetset]

Mark Spitzer: novelist, poet and literary translator (might swim also, but better known as a poet).

Mark Spitz: achieved an Olympic record in 1972 that may never be equaled (seven gold medals). Currently works as a motivational speaker (but does not live in a van by the river).

OK, OK, OK - I stand corrected!

What about Lance Armstrong (multiple Tour de France winner)?

 

[suzecat]

What about Lance Armstrong (multiple Tour de France winner)?

OK< the doping hoopla has died down...................my former husband is a cyclist...........I guess that particular activity somehow slipped my mind.

Undoubtedly, Lance should be on the list of amazing athletes!

 

[GrandMaster]

Talking of great sportsmen, how come nobody has mentioned Pele, the greatest football (soccer to Americans) player?

 

[johnsteed]

Some thoughts...

***

If we're talking outside of the major sports, I'd have to think that Lance Armstrong would have to rank amongst the top. He may participate again (despite saying that he's retiring), as I recently heard that Sherryl Crow has been urging him to keep pushing.

***

I was thinking about a list for some of the greatest "Female Athletes", and I think it would go like this.


Babe Didrikson Zaharias (1911-1956) - What did she do? She won 3 Olympic medals. Not only that, but she also won 31 LPGA titles!!! And here's a list of some of the other things she did.


- AAU All-American high school basketball player

- In 1932, she single-handedly won the AAU team track and field championship (finishing 5 of the 8 events she had entered)

- '32 Summer Olympics she won 2 gold medals (she broke 2 records that were both hers), and would have won a 3rd had they not ruled her technique in the high jump ineligible (she finished with a silver)

Sidenote: She's from Beaumont, Texas... to which the dUck may know a thing or two about her.


Martina Navratalova (1956- ) - What did she do? She won 167 singles titles!!! She won 18 Grand Slam events (tied with arch-nemesis Chris Evert... whom she held the head-to-head edge at 43-37 in for victories). As far as I know, Navratalova was playing in the tour last year in Doubles... AMAZING!!! I know that Steffi Graf has more Gland Slam titles (22 total), but she didn't have to go up against Chris Evert every other game. You could argue Graf (or Evert for that matter) over Navratalova, but I don't see it.


Sidenote: Did you know that in '88, Steffi Graf won all 4 majors as well as an Olympic gold.


Nadia Comaneci (1961- ) - What did she do? At the '76 Olympics, she scored 7 10s (absolute perfection) in the "uneven bars" in the compulsory round. She'd go on to win 3 gold, 5 medals in total, and another 2 golds in '80, taking her total medal count up to 5 gold, 3 silver, and 1 bronze.


I was also considering Jackie Joyner-Kersee (track-and-field), Steffi Graf (tennis), Chris Evert (tennis), Cheryll Miller (basketball), Sonja Henie (figure skating), Tracy Caulkins (swimming), amongst a host of others.


***


GrandMaster

Talking of great sportsmen, how come nobody has mentioned Pele, the greatest football (soccer to Americans) player?

Most certainly the greatest soccer player of All-Time. He scored 1,280 goals in 1,360 games (which is 2nd All-Time next to another Brazilian by the name of Arthur Friedenreich with 1,329). He set the records for international goals at 97.


Here's a quote from a biography on him:


"He scored an average of a goal in every international game he played--the equivalent of a baseball player's hitting a home run in every World Series game over 15 years."


Well, isn't that something.


***


suzecat

Wayne Gretzky. Just whisper the name and people pay attention.

Most hockey fans and non-hockey fans (heck, isn't that pretty much the world) would pick Gretzky as the greatest in hockey (and maybe in all sports). I would have taken Gretzky in a heartbeat up until a couple of years agok, and I would have probably selected him as being the greatest in all of sports pre-Jordan era (oddly enough, I have a friend who lives in Vegas, and he's seen them hanging-out at the casinos on more than one occasion... gold buddies as well... with Lemieux). Now, I'm not so sure anymore. I don't have a problem with his being the greatest, but there's a compelling argument that a Bobby Orr or a Mario Lemieux are/were just as good.


Both players have suffered from too many injuries that hurt there careers. With Orr, it was the knees, and he was done, when most players are at their peak. Orr had jets, a booming shot, smarts on par with Gretzky and Lemieux, a winning attitude, grace (but he was tough), and not mentioned enough, was that he was exceptionally gifted defensively.


With Lemieux, people always think of his size as being to his advantage, but I think it may have hurt him (like it's hurting Eric Lindros... who should have been the next one... not Sidney Crosby). But his hands and vision are just as great as Gretzky's. They can read plays before they happen. Lemieux used to be quite fast (quick no... but long-stride fast), sneaky like Gretzky, and again, like Gretzky, he slow the game down to a crawl and do wonderful things. Also note, that Lemieux played a great portion of his career in an era that was depressed of goal scoring. Only this year, after roughly 10-years, has scoring been up. Lucky for Sidney Crosby (who's going to be something special).


There's no downside to Gretzky really, but he DID come at a time where goals were scored in bucket loads by the period (never mind the game total). Believe you me, he used to come into the ******** Arena, and destroy my beloved Jets (no more hints about my origins). I know what he could do. Watching the Oilers at that time, it was disappointing if they didn't score at LEAST 6 goals in a game (the league on team-per-team basis could barely muster up more than 2 goals per game... yuck!). But my point is that he played when there were so many players registering 100 points per season.

Had Gretzky played the majority of his career (and at his peak) in the '90s until now (like Lemieux), there's no way he EVER would reached beyond the 200 points in year (he did that 4 times), ditto with his 92 goals. Believe you me, '80s hockey was awesome. The '90s for the most part was garbage. Glad to see it's changing.


***


suzecat

Football:

Joe Montana: too bad he's doing so much TV work now.

Jerry Rice: amazing wide receiver; less amazing dancer.

Those are the two who're at the top of my list of receivers and quarterbacks. I'm not actually from the Bay Area, but I happen to like their teams. I remember seeing Montana at the end of his career with Kansas City, and there was this Monday Night Football game against Denver in '94. The Chiefs made a wonderful comeback, and won the game with 8 seconds left to beat the Broncos (who were a GREAT team at that time). I've seen quite a few NFL games, and that ranks RIGHT at the top of them.

I don't think there are too many athletes who've trained harder than Jerry Rice. He's still in amazing shape, and even in a reduced role, could still have played this year. He's far from what he was 10-years ago, but will always have great hands.


Great stuff

Steed

***

 

[spearmaster]

Boy, this thread has taken on new life!

Never would've believed it would start with an innocent question... LOL...

Babe Didrikson - undoubtedly a fine choice and one I completely agree with - sadly, though, she is barely known outside the US.

Nadia was great too but I wouldn't put her in a top 10 list, I think...

Cheryl *was* my classmate at USC and one hell of an athlete and she would probably make my list - she used to beat Reggie in their backyard - yes *the* Reggie...

Martina - not all that sure. A great athlete too - but Steffi left at the top of her career - if she had continued I think she would have made Martina look rather ordinary... and besides which if you want to nominate Martina, you should nominate one of her former partners Nancy Lieberman as well And I'd add Billie Jean King and Evonne Goolagong to the list from tennis as well.

Jackie is not a bad choice either. She too is an exceptional athlete.

Annika Sorenstam would have a good claim too - but just wait for Michelle Wie... time's on her side.

For the men...

Lance must be on the list - can't ignore someone who has won the Tour de France seven times... absolutely incredible.

Michael Jordan is another must. He didn't quite make it in baseball but he sure as hell had the talent.

Jim Thorpe hasn't been mentioned either, but he was a true multi-discpline athlete battling against discrimination as well.

Gretzky may be "The Great One" but he had many other in his sport who could also lay claim to fame - still, he's a good choice.

Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus also deserve consideration.

Baseball - too many greats to count but I'd give Babe Ruth an edge.

Football - hmm. I can't say I'd choose anyone from this lot - Montana and Rice were exceptional athletes, but so were Namath, OJ, Staubach and many others.

Soccer - Pele is a must, as is Maradona - undeniably the two greatest footballers ever. Ronaldinho and Ronaldo may also crack this level, as well as Zidane (sorry Simmo, ain't no British footballer I've ever seen which come anywhere close).

How's that for a start? I'm sure I can think of some other athletes in other disciplines when my head stops aching... LOL...

and btw, as for Spitz - a great athlete indeed - but he can't hold a candle to some of today's swimmers. From Olympic history, I'd have to name Carl Lewis as the most deserving, even if I don't like him all that much.

Oops! Forgot tennis... Bjorn Borg, Andre Agassi, Pete Sampras, Jimmy Connors, Ken Rosewall... Borg probably the most deserving at present - although I think Boris Becker was the most athletic of them all.

 

[johnsteed]

***

Spearmaster

Oops! Forgot tennis... Bjorn Borg, Andre Agassi, Pete Sampras, Jimmy Connors, Ken Rosewall... Borg probably the most deserving at present - although I think Boris Becker was the most athletic of them all.

I liked how you threw-in the part about Becker being the most athletic of the bunch. "Boom-Boom" was truly gifted (and I love hearing him scream to himself when something was off with his game), and had an exceptional net game.

I'm going to guess that you weren't a John McEnroe fan (or was it the BIC commercials that did him in?). I can certainly understand why, although I'd have to say he is one of the greatest interviews. My favorite all-time interview was when he was a guest on Charlie Rose (PBS) about 6-years ago. Brilliant stuff, doesn't hold any opinions back, but he knows what he's talking about. I know people dislike him because of his on-the-court shenanigans (which made me howl laughing), but he had the best hands (touch) of the bunch. I think that out of Jimmy Connors & McEnroe, it was McEnroe who gave Bjorn Borg a tougher time.


cont...

Martina - not all that sure. A great athlete too - but Steffi left at the top of her career - if she had continued I think she would have made Martina look rather ordinary... and besides which if you want to nominate Martina, you should nominate one of her former partners Nancy Lieberman as well And I'd add Billie Jean King and Evonne Goolagong to the list from tennis as well.

On second thought, I may rescind about what I had said about Graf. She would most likely have to be considered the greatest women's tennis player (maybe even the greatest in both), so in that sense she trumps Martina. But, it sure as hell would have been more interesting had Monica Seles NOT been stabbed, because she was pretty dominant prior to the incident. With a confident Seles out of the picture, and when your best competition for a good part of the '90s is A. Sanchez Vicario, you're bound to clean-up. Nevertheless, she was the greatest.


Sidenote: I used to get a kick out of Martina calling Graf's matches. In that hush-hush voice the use to commentate on the game, she kept going on-and-on-and-on about Graf's legs. She'd say stuff like,"She's got the most magnificent legs... beautiful... look at the tone... she has the nicest pair of legs I've ever seen..." What made that even funnier, was that the other commentator would just go silent, and all you would hear for 60 minutes (early round opponent... in-and-out job) straight was Martina going on about her legs. Classic.


With hubby Agassi, I'll say this... Had Agassi had the focus that he has now (in his early years), and that he periodically has had from time-to-time (he goes on-and-off), I'm not so sure that Pete Sampras is better than him. When Agassi is on his game, he's impossible to beat (ignoring the recent domination of the game by Roger Federer). I used to hate Agassi, and think he was just some kind of pretty boy, but he's become truly great (in speaking and in representing the game).

***

cont...

Cheryl *was* my classmate at USC and one hell of an athlete and she would probably make my list - she used to beat Reggie in their backyard - yes *the* Reggie...

That must have been something! :notworthy She'd have to be considered THE greatest women's basketball player. It's unfortunate that she never did play in the WNBA. In the realm of basketball, her star may be brighter than her brothers. Over the last 20-years, if I had go find a way to win at the end of a game, I'm giving the ball to Michael Jordan. But... if it's not him, I'm giving it to Reggie. In a flash. Knick killer (you must have some mixed-feelings about that Miller family Spearmaster?). I love Reggie Miller, but they must have hated him at your school. When he was with UCLA, EVERYONE hated him (except those at UCLA of course). :icon_twis

Funny that you should mention their backyard, because they always refer to it. I keep hearing that Reggie had to learn the art of launching 3's from his mom's flowerbed.


Great stuff...


Steed

***

 

[spearmaster]

Oh shit! I forgot Big Mac!

McEnroe is also one of the greats, no question about it - and also a great, great athlete, I'd say on a par with Becker. He never gave less than 110% on the court... can anyone ever remember watching a boring match involving McEnroe?

Agassi is one of my all-time favorite athletes, period. He and Sampras are truly class acts - except for that period when Agassi was distracted by Brooke Shields... LOL...

Steffi too is a class act - and let's not mention that she has a great pair of legs... LMFAO... just what I would have expected of Martina But wait until little Agassi grows up... I'm sure you've seen the commercials where he's already hitting balls... by the time he's bigger than his racket, he'll be pretty damn competitive...

Back to Steffi's competition - Monica was always great fun to watch, but still not quite on the level of Steffi. If only Jennifer Capriati had realized her potential, things might have been different - Arantxa was never any real competition except on clay (what a surprise) - but even then Steffi had to deal with Martina, who was still pretty solid, Lindsay Davenport (who I also believe never reached her full potential until she started shedding weight - too little too late), a prodigy named Martina Hingis (again, distracted by an overbearing mother and a golfer named Sergio LMAO - though Steffi had to deal with her father, much like Jelena Dokic now ignoring her father).

Speaking of which, we forgot the Williams sisters, who were simply invincible for a time, when they had to beat off each other more often than not... if we're talking athleticism, these two win hands down (and before anyone starts calling them men, they should meet Amelie Mauresmo first).

Federer is still the new kid on the block - and one hell of a player - but he has no competition! Say what you like - but until someone rises to challenge him, he'll never establish his true greatness...

Cheryl was, and may always, reign as the greatest women's basketball player ever - she was nothing short of amazing - and this was because she played against the boys when she was young - and beat their pants off too LOL.

Reggie will always have the brighter star, because he established himself in the NBA with little effort and is a sure Hall of Famer. I don't think there will ever be another Cheryl though - the women's games at USC had a FAR better turnout than the men's games because of Cheryl - and strangely enough, USC actually had a decent men's basketball team during those years...

... and yes, I hated Reggie with a passion when he was in the NBA - but we forgave him for being a Bruin because we had Cheryl and at the time she was a far bigger star

Cheryl was my classmate in Freshman Composition 101... and btw she is actually quite bright, especially for an athlete. I only got into that class because I was too lazy to take the waiver exam... and I skipped class way more than the mandatory fail limit, but the teacher, Mr. Holland, who I will always remember, just overlooked my horrible attendance record and sent me on to the exam... where, out of his class of 15, 3 passed the exam - Freshman Comp 101 at the time was regarded as the most difficult Freshman English class in the nation, as only 1% of 2500+ students would be exempted.

What really sucked about that was that those who passed were not told their rank - I had been the first of 2500 students out of the auditorium, followed by another 100 who didn't want to be the first to admit failure... LOL... and I knew without a doubt that I would pass out - and I would like to think I passed 1st in that class LOL but I'll never know.

As I recall, I also had Cheryl in - of all classes - Japanese 101!

The WNBA was formed FOR Cheryl Miller - without her, it would never have worked - and you're right, it's a pity she never played, but she turned out to be a pretty good coach The first USC basketball player (male or female) to have her jersey retired... and in 1986, named the best basketball player in the nation (male or female) by Sports Illustrated.

How in the world can anyone eclipse that?

 

[suzecat]

***




Those are the two who're at the top of my list of receivers and quarterbacks. I'm not actually from the Bay Area, but I happen to like their teams. I remember seeing Montana at the end of his career with Kansas City, and there was this Monday Night Football game against Denver in '94. The Chiefs made a wonderful comeback, and won the game with 8 seconds left to beat the Broncos (who were a GREAT team at that time). I've seen quite a few NFL games, and that ranks RIGHT at the top of them. ***

I was very lucky and lived in the Bay Area from 1984 to 2002 -- just in time for Joe Montana/Dwight Clark "THE CATCH". While Montana enjoyed many more years of glory, Clark seemed to flow by the wayside (sorry Dwight!). Needless to say, Rice caught up the slack in a most amazing way and I was sad sad sad the day Joe left the team and even more surprised that Rice soon followed. Bad day for SF IMHO.

 

[Pinababy69]

Both players have suffered from too many injuries that hurt there careers. With Orr, it was the knees, and he was done, when most players are at their peak. Orr had jets, a booming shot, smarts on par with Gretzky and Lemieux, a winning attitude, grace (but he was tough), and not mentioned enough, was that he was exceptionally gifted defensively.

Ahhh, JS, now I know you are a true Canuck. And we definitely agree!! Bobby Orr, Bobby Orr, Bobby Orr, they don't make em like that anymore.

I gotta get in on this thread, I'm a sports freak, well...used to be til I had a baby five years ago, lol.

How about great racehorses? Don't know how you guys feel, but I consider them athletes as well. And what about the jockeys? Pound for pound, some of the most well-conditioned athletes of all, IMO. Anyone who has ever galloped a thoroughbred can attest to that.

Horses, in no particular order - Affirmed (last Triple Crown winner in 1978), Secretariat, Northern Dancer (Canadian ), Cigar (truly amazing specimen, he won 16 consecutive races, different distances, different tracks, different surfaces). He even won the race in Dubai and came back home to race again...most horses who race over there finish their careers there. Actually, my list could be endless, but I'll start with that.

Jockeys - Angel Cordero, Pat Day, Jerry Bailey, Shane Sellers (if you knew what this guy has gone through, you'd be amazed he's still walking), Sandy Hawley (another Canuck) and Julie Krone (before she had her 2nd bad accident and started riding scared). Again, I have an endless list of modern day nominees, but this is a beginning.

I'll have to really ponder this thread and come back with another post. This was just off the top of my head.