North Korea and US politics

[ternur]

 

[pinnit2014]

It's always cat/kittens

Fear not, the Dog will save the day - his ego, not being as great as an evil cats, even allows him to team up with who started the virus (a rogue evil dog, perhaps)

 

[cncas2123]

Well, that is BS mack, absolute and utter BS.

You still have not answered my question. If it cures COVID as you keep insisting why are doctors not using it on all or at least the majority of patients?

BTW, the French guy has just as much a flawed study as the one at the VA in the US. Overall, that is considered anecdotal evidence (reason enough to try if it works indeed, and that is what's happening).

These latest results are observational evidence from a large worldwide blind study. Are you saying that all doctors from Vietnam to Canada and from Australia to Denmark are all in on a huge conspiracy that would be in total contradiction of the oath they take to save people?

I’m short , yes it’s a worldwide conspiracy by every country to blacken the name of Trump as he’s the one who discovered that HCQ would cure Covid, and the French doctor brke ranks ...... haven’t you been reading the Deep State Daily Times lately as it’s front page news........
@Harry_BKK you are wasting your time debating , Mack has his mind made up and no matter what facts you place in front of him he’s not for changing. I wish I had his blind faith in HCQ but unfortunately I live in the real world.

 

[cncas2123]

was this given late, that seems to be a big factor

Dr. William O'Neill, a world-renowned Henry Ford doctor, is leading one of the largest U.S. studies into the drug. He gives us a little more information.

In fact, Dr. O'Neill calls a recent report based on veterans and the dangers of hydroxychloroquine "junk science."

"The report has never been peer-reviewed, meaning that other doctors haven't been able to review the information. And it's an incredibly inaccurate, biased report," he says.

I would like to understand why if it works in vitro why that affect doesn't carry over to real patients; if it doesn't work it doesn't work but I know I witnessed in the media a keeness for it not to work, which is incomprehensible to me.

If my understanding of the French study of 1061 patients treated with HCQ is correct they were treating symptomatic and asymptomatic patients and not just patients that were being treated in hospital. If thats the case then the study is completely flawed as roughly 900 of these patients can have been expected to have fully recovered with no treatment needed as 85% of infected people have mild symptoms. If this is the case, how can this study be taken seriously?

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[dionysus]

for some levity, things on FB you wish you could unsee, for $100 Alex

 

[mack341]

Well, that is BS mack, absolute and utter BS.

You still have not answered my question. If it cures COVID as you keep insisting why are doctors not using it on all or at least the majority of patients?

BTW, the French guy has just as much a flawed study as the one at the VA in the US. Overall, that is considered anecdotal evidence (reason enough to try if it works indeed, and that is what's happening).

These latest results are observational evidence from a large worldwide blind study. Are you saying that all doctors from Vietnam to Canada and from Australia to Denmark are all in on a huge conspiracy that would be in total contradiction of the oath they take to save people?

Looking at the figures accompanying the study, there are a great many comorbidities in the patients, I think the study said most were from north america, if HCQ is given late it will not help as much as if given early, that is my understanding.

For example:

Hypertension

21 437 (26·4%)

560 (30·0%)

1095 (28·9%)

891 (29·5%)

1827 (29·4%)

this also stood out to me, the far right is patients who received HQC with a macrolide:

Mechanical ventilation

6278 (7·7%)

403 (21·6%)

814 (21·5%)

616 (20·4%)

1243 (20·0%)

Doesn't being put on a ventilator carry risks of it's own?

wikipedia:
Mechanical ventilation is often a life-saving intervention, but carries potential complications including

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, airway injury, alveolar damage,

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, and

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.

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Other complications include diaphragm atrophy, decreased cardiac output, and oxygen toxicity. One of the primary complications that presents in patients mechanically ventilated is acute lung injury (ALI)/acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS). ALI/ARDS are recognized as significant contributors to patient morbidity and mortality.

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The chloroquine only group has a 7.4% lower mortality rate than HCQ +macrolide, that doesn't make sense to me, antibiotics don't kill and HCQ is safer than chloroquine.

 

[cncas2123]

Looking at the figures accompanying the study, there are a great many comorbidities in the patients, I think the study said most were from north america, if HQC is given late it will not help as much as if given early, that is my understanding.

For example:

Hypertension

21 437 (26·4%)

560 (30·0%)

1095 (28·9%)

891 (29·5%)

1827 (29·4%)

this also stood out to me, the far right is patients who received HQC with a macrolide:

Mechanical ventilation

6278 (7·7%)

403 (21·6%)

814 (21·5%)

616 (20·4%)

1243 (20·0%)

Doesn't being put on a ventilator carry risks of it's own?

wikipedia:
Mechanical ventilation is often a life-saving intervention, but carries potential complications including

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, airway injury, alveolar damage,

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, and

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Other complications include diaphragm atrophy, decreased cardiac output, and oxygen toxicity. One of the primary complications that presents in patients mechanically ventilated is acute lung injury (ALI)/acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS). ALI/ARDS are recognized as significant contributors to patient morbidity and mortality.

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The chloroquine only group has a 7.4% lower mortality rate than HCQ +macrolide, that doesn't make sense to me, antibiotics don't kill and HCQ is safer than chloroquine.

But you are ignoring the fact that 900 of these patients could have reasonably been expected to recover with no intervention?
Why do you ignore that, but when real data based on 96,000 patients shows that there is no noticeable effect you just brush it to the side?
Or am I reading the French study incorrectly?

 

[mack341]

But you are ignoring the fact that 900 of these patients could have reasonably been expected to recover with no intervention?
Why do you ignore that, but when real data based on 96,000 patients shows that there is no noticeable effect you just brush it to the side?
Or am I reading the French study incorrectly?

I was talking about the study harry posted; I posted a chart a page back or so, showing the death rate across france, the marseille column with HCQ and AZ has the lowest rate and yet it covers france 2nd biggest city.

I think the in vitro study showed it has an antivral effect against covid-19, plus the cytokines and ace 2 inhibition. It would be surprising if it didn't help, to what degree could be debated.

I think possibly in the american study they've given HCQ to the worse patients, maybe late in the day after their lungs are already damaged. It wouldn't take a worldwide conspiracy, just a decision to only give those most severly ill and reacting to the virus the medicines, milder cases would get conservative treatment.

 

[cncas2123]

I was talking about the study harry posted; I posted a chart a page back or so, showing the death rate across france, the marseille column with HCQ and AZ has the lowest rate and yet it covers france 2nd biggest city.

I think the in vitro study showed it has an antivral effect against covid-19, plus the cytokines and ace 2 inhibition. It would be surprising if it didn't help, to what degree could be debated.

I think possibly in the american study they've given HCQ to the worse patients, maybe late in the day after their lungs are already damaged. It wouldn't take a worldwide conspiracy, just a decision to only give those most severly ill and reacting to the virus the medicines, milder cases would get conservative treatment.

My mistake, I didnt read the reply correctly.
But how can you shoot down this study but you support a study in which up to 80% of the patients could expect to fully recover without any treatment whatsoever? Or is my reading of the French study wrong?

 

[mack341]

My mistake, I didnt read the reply correctly.
But how can you shoot down this study but you support a study in which up to 80% of the patients could expect to fully recover without any treatment whatsoever? Or is my reading of the French study wrong?

Je n'regret I don't know, I'm getting to the point of past caring to be honest, my problem is I cannot compute all these countries and doctors/hospitals using it, but it's worse than useless.

To get to the rank of professor you have to be a real expert, years of study required and highly intelligent, if he's got it wrong at least I was following somebody who knows his stuff. It would be good if he took part in a debate with fauci or somebody who is a sceptic of HCQ.

If it is proven to work think of the embarrassment for govt's like the uk's who could've been using it for at least 2 months, there is a lot at stake, I expect a consensus to form and it will be buried even if it does help.

 

[cncas2123]

Je n'regret I don't know, I'm getting to the point of past caring to be honest, my problem is I cannot compute all these countries and doctors/hospitals using it, but it's worse than useless.

To get to the rank of professor you have to be a real expert, years of study required and highly intelligent, if he's got it wrong at least I was following somebody who knows his stuff. It would be good if he took part in a debate with fauci or somebody who is a sceptic of HCQ.

If it is proven to work think of the embarrassment for govt's like the uk's who could've been using it for at least 2 months, there is a lot at stake, I expect a consensus to form and it will be buried even if it does help.

He could have used Aspirin in his study, it would have had the same affect on the results. How can you even consider this a real study when most of the patients were going to recover whatever happened?
Every proper study has shown it doesnt work, there's no conspiracy, it just doesnt work on Covid.
Greater Belfast has two thirds of the population of Marsielle and has had less than 250 deaths. Not one person has undergone the HCQ treatment and looking at the figures i would say we compare favourably with Marsielle.
Lies, damn lies and statistics. You can interpret them any way you want.

 

[mack341]

He could have used Aspirin in his study, it would have had the same affect on the results. How can you even consider this a real study when most of the patients were going to recover whatever happened?
Every proper study has shown it doesnt work, there's no conspiracy, it just doesnt work on Covid.
Greater Belfast has two thirds of the population of Marsielle and has had less than 250 deaths. Not one person has undergone the HCQ treatment and looking at the figures i would say we compare favourably with Marsielle.
Lies, damn lies and statistics. You can interpret them any way you want.

Not sure you are reading my replies, I was actually comparing parts of france, doesn't seem an unscientific thing to do in the situation, you know for someone to explain the massive difference in mortality rates within france and relating to different treatment regimes.

[If everyone had belfast's results maybe we wouldn't need to vaccinate the whole planet.]

I've been reasonable in all my posts, but it's a two way street. These back-and-forths with you and harry etc... have been decidely toxic in nature, angling for a ruckus to my mind.

 

[pinnit2014]

 

[cncas2123]

Not sure you are reading my replies, I was actually comparing parts of france, doesn't seem an unscientific thing to do in the situation, you know for someone to explain the massive difference in mortality rates within france and relating to different treatment regimes.

[If everyone had belfast's results maybe we wouldn't need to vaccinate the whole planet.]

I've been reasonable in all my posts, but it's a two way street. These back-and-forths with you and harry etc... have been decidely toxic in nature, angling for a ruckus to my mind.

Not in the slightest bit interested in a ruckus, all I am doing is putting forward hard facts.
What I am trying to show you is that statistics can be interpreted in any way you want, but you have to look at the facts behind it.
In the Greater Belfast area, and in Northern Ireland as a whole the social distancing was well observed meaning a population of around 1.6 million people there are only 500 deaths. How was the lock down etc observed in Marsielle compared to the rest of France? If it was better observed than other parts of France then its going to lead to less deaths. What I am trying to get across is that there may have been reasons that Marsielle did better than Paris for example.
But to say a test were over 80% of the subjects would never have needed the treatment administered proves the HCQ works and that its the reason the Marsielle had such low death rates is nonsensical. If the health of Maresielle is down to the use of HCQ then the majority of the population would have needed to take it, not just 1000 test subjects.
But this is the normal, you cherry pick your data and present in a way that you hope will back up your argument of a conspiracy theory against Trump that this is all down to big pharma, Bill Gates, a lab in Wuhan, Obama, the Democrats and the Deep State.

 

[Kroffe]

Where are the Nature documentaries at?

 

[paul7388]

Where are the Nature documentaries at?

Well since it is your Birthday and you won't be getting cake till family visit.

 

[vorcirion]

Where are the Nature documentaries at?

Happy birthday!

 

[mack341]

Not in the slightest bit interested in a ruckus, all I am doing is putting forward hard facts.
What I am trying to show you is that statistics can be interpreted in any way you want, but you have to look at the facts behind it.
In the Greater Belfast area, and in Northern Ireland as a whole the social distancing was well observed meaning a population of around 1.6 million people there are only 500 deaths. How was the lock down etc observed in Marsielle compared to the rest of France? If it was better observed than other parts of France then its going to lead to less deaths. What I am trying to get across is that there may have been reasons that Marsielle did better than Paris for example.
But to say a test were over 80% of the subjects would never have needed the treatment administered proves the HCQ works and that its the reason the Marsielle had such low death rates is nonsensical. If the health of Maresielle is down to the use of HCQ then the majority of the population would have needed to take it, not just 1000 test subjects.
But this is the normal, you cherry pick your data and present in a way that you hope will back up your argument of a conspiracy theory against Trump that this is all down to big pharma, Bill Gates, a lab in Wuhan, Obama, the Democrats and the Deep State.

But not everyone in marseille did take it and the death rate is higher in those that didn't, which makes me wonder whether you have actually looked at the chart:



The two colours relate to dates, but the figures are 5% and 8.6% for marseille patients who did not take HCQ + AZ compared to 0.4 and 0.5% who did.

Why should I dismiss this, I realise statistics can be fixed and manipulated, is that the sole reason, and the low mortality rate has nothing to do with his treatment plan?

I should also then dismiss the fact HCQ is a very cheap generic, that gates is obsessed with vaccines and has funded digital ID solutions, and fauci has funded 'gain of function' virus research in wuhan even though the US had stopped doing it for fears of the risks.

At the moment it's not possible to say whether any of this matters or points to probable cause, it depends [in my mind] what the 'new normal' life will be like, what changes are brought in etc...

It could be a manipulated virus that got out by accident from that lab or was deliberately released, that's not impossible imo. Can I prove it from sitting in my living room looking at web pages on google, no I cannot.

 

[cncas2123]

But not everyone in marseille did take it and the death rate is higher in those that didn't, which makes me wonder whether you have actually looked at the chart:

View attachment 132226

The two colours relate to dates, but the figures are 5% and 8.6% for marseille patients who did not take HCQ + AZ compared to 0.4 and 0.5% who did.

Why should I dismiss this, I realise statistics can be fixed and manipulated, is that the sole reason, and the low mortality rate has nothing to do with his treatment plan?

I should also then dismiss the fact HCQ is a very cheap generic, that gates is obsessed with vaccines and has funded digital ID solutions, and fauci has funded 'gain of function' virus research in wuhan even though the US had stopped doing it for fears of the risks.

At the moment it's not possible to say whether any of this matters or points to probable cause, it depends [in my mind] what the 'new normal' life will be like, what changes are brought in etc...

It could be a manipulated virus that got out by accident from that lab or was deliberately released, that's not impossible imo. Can I prove it from sitting in my living room looking at web pages on google, no I cannot.

To quote you, if the whole world could be like Marsielle then there wouldnt be a need for a vaccine.
Cherry picking again, same old BS, time for me to drop out of this thread as its a waste of time posting when you are so blinkered and chose not to look at the facts.
I am glad I have the intelligence to look at all the facts presented to me, rather than living my life believing everything is a conspiracy and the deep state is watching me all the time.

 

[Borgie]

To quote you, if the whole world could be like Marsielle then there wouldnt be a need for a vaccine.
Cherry picking again, same old BS, time for me to drop out of this thread as its a waste of time posting when you are so blinkered and chose not to look at the facts.
I am glad I have the intelligence to look at all the facts presented to me, rather than living my life believing everything is a conspiracy and the deep state is watching me all the time.

I agree it must be exhausting trusting nothing or anybody. Seeing stuff that really isn't there .

 

[mack341]

To quote you, if the whole world could be like Marsielle then there wouldnt be a need for a vaccine.
Cherry picking again, same old BS, time for me to drop out of this thread as its a waste of time posting when you are so blinkered and chose not to look at the facts.
I am glad I have the intelligence to look at all the facts presented to me, rather than living my life believing everything is a conspiracy and the deep state is watching me all the time.

You almost got it in one, if the whole world had mortality rates as raoult has achieved using HQC and AZ then there would be no need for 7 billion vaccines, or ID tracking etc..

I could quote parts from several of your posts today where you make these snide comments and insinuations, you have either been angling for a row or more hive mind, group think to pat you on the back. It'll come too.

You may not realise this is a forum for debate and different opinions, but you come across to me as a rather obnoxious shill who will only accept the msm narrative and views.

'same old BS' yeah you are certainly full of it.

 

[paul7388]

Oh this thread is getting interesting just in time for the weekend.

 

[Borgie]

You almost got it in one, if the whole world had mortality rates as raoult has achieved using HQC and AZ then there would be no need for 7 billion vaccines, or ID tracking etc..

I could quote parts from several of your posts today where you make these snide comments and insinuations, you have either been angling for a row or more hive mind, group think to pat you on the back. It'll come too.

You may not realise this is a forum for debate and different opinions, but you come across to me as a rather obnoxious shill who will only accept the msm narrative and views.

'same old BS' yeah you are certainly full of it.

Where did that come from? A personal attack totally unjustified.

 

[mack341]

Where did that come from? A personal attack totally unjustified.

keep stirring borgie

 

[cncas2123]

Where did that come from? A personal attack totally unjustified.

Kind of reminds me of what happens when Mr Trump wants to ignore a debate that he can never win , go on the attack and make it personal .... oh well when people troll and have no sensible argument to make they often go down to the lowest level......