No more 3dice for me :)!!

[steinhaug]

Balancing would not be undetectable , it would be detectable from a mile away.

And you do not see it? Could be we have different eyes, I obviously see it. The problem fits to categories:

1. The player finally has some luck, sure he won! True RNG.
2. The player had to win, since too much losses looses the player and he won't come back, we give a hit - Balanced RNG.

The end result is still the same - and if you don't keep track of all bets and total account history it's hard to spot. Looking overall on your account however you will see a pattern emerging, atleast my accounts shows this. I will keep dragging down the overall payout and get great wins back to getcko - however a little less each time. And as time passes and more money is in the total equation the ups and downs become more and more expencive.

We also know from the freespins that the reels are representing the win in bonus rounds, not the other way around. Meaning in the moment you get the freespins the reels will present you with winnings for that amount. So already there we know there is something going on! This has been confirmed by developers if I do not recall wrong, however the main game is supposedly other way around that the reels determine the win.

The only way to get further on this is I need to save up say 10K and do fresh accounts in say 5 casinos for 2K each and play syncronosly while chewing the playcheck data live for further investigation. Until then it's really no idea for me to express any more here - since we are getting nowhere.

I am not sure if you people base your conclusions on feeling or on accual data. I have analyzed playcheck data (my own) for several years, and there are a lot of gameplay in here for atleast 50K in losses. Needless to say after loosing much, and being a programmer, you get very interested in this. However - maby this is just the definition of a gambling addict. Again - without actual data we do not get any further!

In the end - some people believe Bin Laden did 9/11 - some people don't. Obviously I belong to the ones that don't.

 

[pubjoe]

Well from what I can see, the vast, vast majority do suspect programmed hot and dry streaks. Gamblers never accept that they have lost fairly. I think it's human nature. We lose and then play on expecting that we must be more likely to win eventually... If we don't eventually win, they call it "unfair" or "fixed"... Then when we do win and lose it again, we call that "fixed" and "unfair".

I was hoping you would answer me specifically when I asked you if returning to the casino after my 20k win would give a likely or guaranteed loss for a balancing period. Because, if you have not guessed, it didn't.

I have had accounts that show peaks and troughs, accounts that are staggeringly + % and accounts that are staggeringly low % return.

It sounds likely that you are either fitting your results around your expectations, or you are playing with bias software, such as the embarrassing Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) games that do play an obviously rigged game.

The first likelihood is usually the case, the second is unusual but not impossible. And (you guessed it) I don't believe your sample size would be enough to prove either.

Patterns you can see in your wins spread across losses? I suspect you are looking too hard.

If a casino was to consider your previous win before calculating your next hand, it is clearly an unfair game. Glossing this over "for the courts" by stretching out the process and using a good cop, bad cop pair of number generators would not make a difference. The implementation would still be the same - Previous game's are effecting your spin.

If everyone's casino history was a straightforward LOSE=X then WIN=X(-1) then LOSE=Y then WIN=Y(-2) then this would not be easy to disguise. There is a lot more that goes into casino auditing than just adding up the total pay out percentage.

You seem to not want to completely declare that you believe the games you play to be inherently fraudulent. Instead believing that they are somehow programmed to live in a wonderful middle-ground where there is just enough of outcome rigging to con the player but not enough for the courts to mind.

There is no such thing as a bit rigged. They are either rigged or they are not. My experience (which I have a lot of), satisfies me that I play at fair casinos.

If you suspect the software you are using yourself of skewed outcomes, then why not make that clear? Where is it you play?

 

[Alexishot69]

tend to agree

My b/f last week contacted 2dice to close his acct after he told them that the deposits were just going down way way too quick..over 100 in 24 hrs playing nothing higher than 15p a line on happy valley..streaks of 10-15 in a row with 0p returns and anytime a smll win came in say 4 then guranteed the next 10-20 spins would be dry..seems quite strange that a lot of people are noticing this in the past weeks though huh...its not even the losing thats bothering its if you deposit 100 and low roll <very> then you would at least want a good while playing for your loot but nope just ran dry the whole time ...

 

[Kenny Lingus]

...and I do not doubt a fair game

....But please remember people, if you have gambled extensively, you will see extreme rarities from time to time, if you didn't, it would be unusual.....

"Streaks" would NOT milk more players at all....

P.T. Barnum was indeed accurate. The online casino industry thrives on the concept.

It is naive to think that online casinos can just be trusted to provide (in cyberspace, with no or limited oversight) what would be a crap-shoot (pun intended) to experience if an unregulated B&M casino market existed. Land-based casinos have to be constantly monitored by the state to make sure their games are fair. And with all that oversight, even state lotteries have been compromised.

Some might call this view cynical. I call it awareness of our surroundings.

As far as seeing "rarities", I agree that they would happen on occasion in any game, fair or not. I'm just waiting to see it happen for ME and not the casino. And I'm not talking about hitting a jackpot or something like that; those things will happen occasionally as well. I'm talking about getting a straight flush followed by a 3-of-a-kind in 3 card poker, or getting 6 blackjacks in a row myself... It's funny how most of the "rarities" puts money into the casino's pocket; at least that has been my experience.

Finally, on my "streaks" comment, I think you are just not imagining how this concept might be manipulated by a casino to take more of our money, all while claiming that their hand distibution (in the case of blackjack) is within statistical norms.

I can hear it now: "But why would they do something like this? The odds are already in their favor, so what is the need?" Yes, casinos can patiently wait to get your money in the long run. But GREED rarely waits for an opportunity to fleece those "suckers" that P.T. was talking about.

 

[steinhaug]

All in all Kenny, very well put!

As far as seeing "rarities", I agree that they would happen on occasion in any game, fair or not. I'm just waiting to see it happen for ME and not the casino. And I'm not talking about hitting a jackpot or something like that; those things will happen occasionally as well. I'm talking about getting a straight flush followed by a 3-of-a-kind in 3 card poker, or getting 6 blackjacks in a row myself... It's funny how most of the "rarities" puts money into the casino's pocket; at least that has been my experience.

I would argue that the 3Dice software has a twist here, especially in BJ - it accually gives you such a rarity in you favour when hot. However - followed by another even more amazing contra streak. So in the end you are just as broke - however you do get that amazing 5 BJ in a row! I had it, however followed soon after by I think it was 13 amazing hands in a row for the casino. Yeejjj... I wrote about this earlier this year, or was it in december in the forum. I never got the playcheck data either in this run, and I didn't play more BJ after this in 3Dice. After the amazing 24 Desember winnings I stopped pretty much all together, as I have a terrible feeling the casino is now there to get me if I deposit more.

Needless to say for the nei sayers, since I got an amazing streak - followed by a even more amazing streak other way around - as usual it fits within statistical norms. Beautiful!

 

[pubjoe]

well my online casino experience is very different.

While I have had very dry spells. Once, I did not hit a royal flush for six Months, but a close friend of mine (at about the same level of play) hit 12 in two weeks on multihand VP.

One time, after upping my stake during a chase, I received 2 straight flushes in a row, a straight, a flush and then a 3oak on MG 3-card poker.

I've played received a 6 to make 21 and beat the dealer's 20 after a long row of losses ...and then come back to make a decent profit. (This has probably happened several times)

I've won 4,000 at a casino I'd only just joined ...next day, reversed the withdrawal and turned it into 10k ...next day reversed again and turned it into nearly 15k ...before finally busting out with nothing ( :-( )!

I've hit a 4k royal on Saturday, gone back Sunday and hit another 4k royal.

I've had 8 BJ wins in a row (including 3 BJs) while I was doubling stakes after each win.

I've split aces vs a 10 at 750 a hand, received duff cards with each one and the dealer's bust.

Oh and I hit my biggest win, a 20k royal at a site where I have a deposit limit, when returning there after 18 Months. so there can be no way of the casino getting there money back. ...and I returned and withdrew a good few more wins after lowering my limit right down to 25.

...I could find 100 more spots of luck in my favour, just like those, in my casino logs and 100 of the opposite too. And the wins/losses definitely do not balance out at each casino.

I've heard the sort of sob story, "why does the dealer get all the luck!! :'-(" ..."This game's rigged against me" a thousand times. I've even said it myself! But it's BS. At work I'd just humor it as it gets boring and hopeless going in circles discussing it. Gambler's will allways prefer to say they've been conned rather than admit they might have made a bad bet. ...and funnily enough these gambler's will be the most likely to keep returning ...deviate the most from optimal stratagies... And keep losing ...and still keep playing, while winging about being conned. Perhaps they're trying to crack the system? That's exactly what I mean about allowing gamblers to chase the white rabbit... By there being no system, they will never succeed, they will keep playing and playing in vein.

I can't believe I seem to be the only one who trusts their choice of casinos to play. All these gamblers and they all seem to think they're getting conned, while still voluntarily going back!! ...Actually, by now, I can believe it. :-(

 

[trade]

Original Thread

I can't believe I seem to be the only one who trusts their choice of casinos to play. All these gamblers and they all seem to think they're getting conned, while still voluntarily going back!! ...Actually, by now, I can believe it. :-(

Pubjoe. It is interesting to read about your experience and no doubt, hard earned knowledge and hope that you continue to share and impart your knowledge, experience and opinions!
The original thread was about 3Dice and the poor payouts that many regular CM members have been experiencing there.
3Dice is a proprietary software which up until now does not have any independent auditor reports available to the public or the ability, apparently, to provide playcheck-like records. Slotland is another proprietary software which was at one time CM accredited, with "great customer service" just like 3Dice. It is no longer accredited here and I, for one, wonder if that is the direction 3Dice is heading, after they won the prestigious "Casinomeister Award for Best New Casino" last year. People clearly feel differently about
3Dice now than they did when it first came on board and won the affection of many during its initial launch.
Have you played at 3Dice?
I wonder whether 3Dice has or will become much like Slotland that relies on their loyal and customer service loving community to keep pouring $$'s into their site, "feeling good while they lose".
I played 3Dice's free tournaments and saw with interest, on the chat screen (which you can keep open while you play), someone winning over $800 on a
25ct. bet on the real games today. In the last week I won over $1000 on a $1.50 bet, first time in over 6 months that I have had a significant, allbeit very decent win (other than when I first time joined). Most of the time, my experience has been very poor. Either the noteworthy wins are very very far apart or perhaps this thread is shaking them up and affecting payouts?

I would like to go back to one of the major issues in this thread re. 3Dice providing accountability via a 3rd party auditor's month by month report of the software payouts and availability of playcheck records.
If and when the audit becomes available, I would like to see it pre and post this thread date and completed retroactively and month by month. (okay... I have "trust issues"!) Have the wins I personally witnessed been "typcal" or are they a result of "bad press" and them trying to restore faith in their "fairness"?
With a proprietary software program, couldn't they adjust payouts and outcomes as they see fit? This is my burning question for the day!
I too wonder why Enzo, who is usually a contributor to these discussions has become silent and has not responded. No, he doesn't have to answer certain allegations re. fairness, but I think there are other points (playcheck, independent verifiable audits) that he could address.
Thanks! :notworthy

 

[jas2587]

But a true RNG has no memory.

If I believe that not to be the case in any casino, I would not play there (except to perhaps manipulate it's predictability if it wasn't for the fact that a casino using fixed results would just as likely not pay out!). I have played at a lot of (trusted) casinos for a lot of time and have not ever personally experienced "fixed results", "balancing" or "streaks", yet unfortunately, I have heard of those famous cases of fixing (which I do believe).

If a %age is kept in check, then the routine would have to be programmed with a cap on how far wins can deviate, or with some sort of incremental probability of swing. I stand by the fact that this could be manipulated in exactly the same way as land fruit machines can. It's just that you would not be able to return to that particular game if it were true to expect some balancing out.

I've experienced the "incriminating" spells of bad luck, but I've also experienced the reverse. IE: I have joined a casino as a new player, played at high stakes and done very well. Are you saying that on my return to that particular casino, if I played the same game, I should have expected a disadvantageous game? If I returned at low stakes, I suppose I could expect to get severely raped while it "balances" itself out?

[edit] ...And also, by your logic, if I was to return today, to all the casinos where I have ever lost a large amount with a very poor average payout %, I would have an amazingly successful day. That would most certainly be manipulation.

I just don't buy it. At least, not if I trust the casino to give a fair game. ...And I just don't see any purpose in programming a complicated routine of intentional mind games. Not when a truly random game with a house advantage has exactly the right balance in natural variance to send a compulsive gambler into a haze of misguided belief anyway. It has worked this way very successfully for many a century and it works so well because there is no routine, there is no pattern, there is no system, there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

If online games worked like AWPs, there would not be many long term customers.

(Oh, for the record, I have never played at 3dice. I mainly play at a few MG and chartwell casinos.)

He states FTR I have never played at 3Dice so how can he have a opinion as to wether to end play at 3Dice or not or anything to say in this thread about 3Dice

Cindy

 

[trade]

He states FTR I have never played at 3Dice so how can he have a opnion as to wether to end play at 3Dice or not or anything to say i this thread about 3Dice

Cindy

Huh?

 

[RobWin]

(Oh, for the record, I have never played at 3dice. I mainly play at a few MG and chartwell casinos.)

Huh?

trade, pubjoe said in the above post he has never even played at 3Dice...

 

[trade]

trade, pubjoe said in the above post he has never even played at 3Dice...

Thanks Robwin. I didn't understand this part "... how can he have a opnion as to wether to end play at 3Dice or not or anything to say i this thread about 3Dice", but I figured it out! The typos threw me off!

And, while I am at it, always remember people... It is "lose" not "loose" when you refer to "losing" money.
LOL... I just had to take the opportunity to derail this post for an anal spelling correction moment!!

 

[Pinababy69]

I know that you should never assume anything, but I was assuming that Pubjoe was speaking in software generalities, not to 3Dice only and in particular. I know this is a 3Dice thread, but the discussion of RNG's and game fairness hasn't been limited to 3Dice alone of late. There have been many concerns and questions about MG and RTG as well.

Not trying to answer for the guy, don't even know him, lol. That was just my take on it. I do like his posts though. I think they provide balance on this subject, and on a good forum, that's a necessity.

 

[jas2587]

trade, pubjoe said in the above post he has never even played at 3Dice...

Thanks Rob


sorry I didn't make it clearer

Cindy

 

[jas2587]

I know that you should never assume anything, but I was assuming that Pubjoe was speaking in software generalities, not to 3Dice only and in particular. I know this is a 3Dice thread, but the discussion of RNG's and game fairness hasn't been limited to 3Dice alone of late. There have been many concerns and questions about MG and RTG as well.

Not trying to answer for the guy, don't even know him, lol. That was just my take on it. I do like his posts though. I think they provide balance on this subject, and on a good forum, that's a necessity.

ummm yeah ok I get the picture
Cindy

 

[steinhaug]

...I could find 100 more spots of luck in my favour, just like those, in my casino logs and 100 of the opposite too. And the wins/losses definitely do not balance out at each casino.

??? Are you talking single incidents? What you get of cards doesn't really mean anything, that you have had luck is fine and expected. That the dealer in turn gets the same luck is what we are talking about.

Especially is this visible in poker games where the cards are juiced, ending up with incredible hands in both favours - however long run house win by far!

I have hit 750x on $1 bet in MG casino! Yeyy.. Doesn't proove anything!
I have also upped from $5 to $50 bet on a OK streak and got 10 naked spins suddenly... (Then I stopped).

We are not talking single happenings here, since if the system is supposed to balance you out in your favour you will get whatever you need to get there... Be that royal flushes, full houses slushes or freespins afer freespin.

 

[KasinoKing]

I can't believe I seem to be the only one who trusts their choice of casinos to play. All these gamblers and they all seem to think they're getting conned, while still voluntarily going back!! ...Actually, by now, I can believe it. :-(

You most certainly are not the only one!

I think it's just that the people who actually win don't come here & moan about it!

 

[winbig]

You most certainly are not the only one!

I think it's just that the people who actually win don't come here & moan about it!

Yep...you'll rarely, if ever, see a "rigged" thread started from a winner.

But once they start winning again, all of a sudden the games are fair.


Take for instance (not mentioning any names) the CM member months ago that was standing up for Virtual, about how they were an overall winner and they always got paid in a timely manner...but once the games tightened up and they stopped winning, all of Virtual (and RTG's) games were all of a sudden rigged.

 

[RobWin]

No more 3dice for me !!

SameOld: Hi Anna

Anna: hello SameOld

SameOld: can you close my account for good please mate

Anna: sure...we will do that for you i am really sorry to hear that but we will respect your decission of course

Anna: i will

SameOld: can you PLEASE make sure I can not re-open this account

Anna: i already made a note on it

Anna: i wish you the best of luck in the future

Anna: and have a great day/night SameOld

SameOld: So if I by chance ask to play here again I wont be able to

Anna: you will not be able to re open your account anymore

SameOld: thank you VERY MUCH

SameOld: all the best to you Anna you have been a great help to me in the past

Anna: All the best wishes to you too SameOld



I'm a free man, best thing ive done all year I think... noting personal 3-dice but your software is tighter than a frog's asshole- I don't have a gambling problem by all means , I have a 3dice problem

All these gamblers and they all seem to think they're getting conned, while still voluntarily going back!! ...Actually, by now, I can believe it. :-(

Who said anything about voluntarily going back ?? This thread was started by same_old because he closed his account at 3Dice and he also made sure he asked them to never re-open it again !!

Hence the name of the thread: No more 3dice for me !!

 

[same_old]

Who said anything about voluntarily going back ?? This thread was started by same_old because he closed his account at 3Dice and he also made sure he asked them to never re-open it again !!

Hence the name of the thread: No more 3dice for me !!

Thanks Rob!.


Basically I made a PAB about 3dice and had both Max and Bryan investigate into it for me, The results came back that there was a audit done NOT on my playing stats but on another memeber here and they came back to be a fair game. (( I )) personally still didnt think this was right so just took it upon myself to close the account for good and not give the place a second thought.
No biggie really, I don't like the place ,account is closed for good, end of story really.



Oh pubjoe i'm a man by the way mate

 

[Alexishot69]

lets be

Thanks Rob!.


Basically I made a PAB about 3dice and had both Max and Bryan investigate into it for me, The results came back that there was a audit done NOT on my playing stats but on another memeber here and they came back to be a fair game. (( I )) personally still didnt think this was right so just took it upon myself to close the account for good and not give the place a second thought.
No biggie really, I don't like the place ,account is closed for good, end of story really.



Oh pubjoe i'm a man by the way mate

Brutally honest 3dice or anyother gaming company can produce figures for anything that meets there needs..why a company would refuse to give a p[layer there stats beats me here and is pretty shoddy practice..if alls open and above board they should be happy giving players there stats because that would get back to a forum pretty quickly and would be excellent publicity for the site...just an opinion ...

 

[steinhaug]

You most certainly are not the only one!

I think it's just that the people who actually win don't come here & moan about it!

I believe you have forgotten all about compulsive gamblers KK, atleast I hope so and that you do not do it deliberately. Why do a drunken man keep drinking? Why do people use drugs!

I still think the games are just as rigged, or balanced which is the latest word, even when I win. I know I have to win - no casino could live with a 75% payout for 10K of wagering, however I am sure it would be very much inside the norm of randomness anyway. Infact, I am bloody sure 10.000 spins flatbetting $1 with 30% payout also would be well in the norm of randomness really, since you need a fantasilion billion spins to make anything out an argument in randomness anyway. But I do not belive this is possible to acomplish in the MG system, such a low payout over time, we the players have demanded a maximum experience and we get it.

I believe the system is tweaked for optimal performance for the player - with the possibility to win aswell if you are lucky. Remember my last post with 3 strains of RNG, good normal bad. This is my simplified hypotheses of the workings of the RNG.

Anyway - bottom line is. When you are in a winning streak in MG you feel it, you feel the win is comming - and you can even switch slot and Kazam! you get the win there instead, how crazy is that! But you need to do some $18 and $20 spinning my friend to experience what we are talking about!

I am an addict - I crave to spin - I will always miss the game - the rush - it's in my blood - and it's in all of you people in the meister forum aswell - rigged or not - I need my fix, just like you do! Some of us play harder, most of us loose our heads and chase losses and reverse the withdrawals. Hey - we are gamblers! I know some people have a hard time admitting it for themselves, but the fact remains. What I need to do is to keep my deposits low so I can live with the cost of my nemesis! Either that or booze and women, In the end - nothing matters anyway! We will all be dead in a 100 years!

 

[babs7262]

I am an addict - I crave to spin - I will always miss the game - the rush - it's in my blood - and it's in all of you people in the meister forum aswell - rigged or not - I need my fix, just like you do! Some of us play harder, most of us loose our heads and chase losses and reverse the withdrawals. Hey - we are gamblers! I know some people have a hard time admitting it for themselves, but the fact remains. What I need to do is to keep my deposits low so I can live with the cost of my nemesis! Either that or booze and women, In the end - nothing matters anyway! We will all be dead in a 100 years!

I partially agree. I think some people are addicts and some people have self control. Would I spend my last $20 at a casino instead of buying food for my family? No Would I deposit AFTER all bills are paid and food is in the kitchen and the 401K is funded for the week and just use disposable income? YES Do I every once in awhile go overboard but not enough to hurt my family lol? Yes
Would I cashout out if I needed money when I reached $100 or more rather than be greedy and go for the gold? Yes

But, thats just me. I wouldnt be able to sleep at night if I compromised my faimly's welfare Thats what free tournies are for

 

[Pinababy69]

Outsanding post Babs, we are on the exact same wavelength re: money management.

Necessities come first, always. I don't think my daughter would appreciate a pic of a slot machine in her lunch box, instead of a sandwich and a snack.

Again I'll repeat what Winbig said, and why I think KK is so successful. It's about money management and discipline.

 

[steinhaug]

Again I'll repeat what Winbig said, and why I think KK is so successful. It's about money management and discipline.

.... and using every possible bonus ... and affiliate bonuses ...

But yes, management and discipline, sticking to low wagers and not betting high as we all know what happends then!

On the other hand, I have to pick on KK a little since he always boasts about winning and all is fair! If you take all bonuses available during a year, you atleast double your bankroll. Hovewer he is only up like 1K in the last 3 years?

In reality he lost a fortune, however - given the bonuses and doubling the bankroll - he managed to survive without loosing to to much of it in the process due to strick rules and timely use of excel spreadsheets! So - what does he win without doing all the bonuses? He is a looser - just as the rest of us playing the slots! The card players however, there atleast skill is revarded!

Also, is it really worth it investing all these hundreds of hours for $333 a year? So I would argue the statement being succesful is a little meaningless for me, but then again I am one of those high rollers looking for a big hit which I can accually buy something for,

Winning 1K should be a good night - not a succesful 3 year period, come on! He is a slot surviver, not a slot champion!

(hope i'm not offending anyone with this rant here - it's hard to make a point without mentioning names)

 

[Pinababy69]

Slot survivor....I like that, lol. And I do agree with you. But I agree with Babs insofar as how much satisfies you, is dependent on your financial circumstances.

If things aren't so great financially, then I will absolutely cashout $100. That gives me five more deposits on their money instead of mine.

But yes, there are times when I will "go for it". A really big bet to me is anything over a dollar a spin, lol. And as you said about buying something...when I have hit big, I have given very little back to the casinos. I have ALWAYS put the money to good use, and bought something tangible with it. For the most part, I play for enjoyment...but there is no denying that a big win gives you a "rush" that is almost incomparable.

And ditto on the bonues and KK....they definitely give you an advantage if you are a PATIENT player, who is willing to grind out your WR, and wait for that one big hit....which I am, lol.

 

[trade]

Babs, Pina....

Paaalllleeasssee let's not turn this into a gambling "morality" discussion!

I think that same_old, Kismiss (even though he needs to learn it's "losing" not "loosing" <no offence meant Kismiss.. even native English user make that error!! > and others have some observations and concerns, that are being lost in the thread. Sooooooo... I repeat my point and questions!
>>>>"I would like to go back to one of the major issues in this thread re. 3Dice providing accountability via a 3rd party auditor's month by month report <retroactively to its inception> of the software payouts and availability of playcheck records....

With a proprietary software program, couldn't they adjust payouts and outcomes as they see fit? This is my burning question for the day!
I too wonder why Enzo, who is usually a contributor to these discussions has become silent and has not responded. No, he doesn't have to answer certain allegations re. fairness, but I think there are other points (playcheck, independent verifiable audits) that he could address.
Thanks!"

 

[Rusty]

PubJoe.
He comes in a thread about a Casino he has never played at and declares how fair online gaming is and anyone who suspects and says otherwise is a whinger and of course he sets himself apart from "all these gamblers"
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[Pinababy69]

Sorry for the derail Trade. You are absolutely right. There are some issues that need to be addressed. I can't get on the "rigged" bandwagon, but I am totally on board with the other stuff.

Rusty, IMO only, I think that Pubjoe was just offering his opinion on gaming fairness in general. I realize it's a 3Dice thread, but you have to admit there have been questions re: all softwares of late. I don't think any of his posts were meant to be 3Dice specific, but more an overall opinion. Perhaps he should clear that up himself...I do get your point.

 

[LaurieJim]

Paaalllleeasssee let's not turn this into a gambling "morality" discussion! morality and money management go hand and hand............to not have either one makes for poor judgement and not a smart gambling move imo, a smart gambler knows what the limits are and has self control, something a few gamblers have problems with and will stay addicted until they lose everything and hit rock bottom, is it moral to spend your last cent at any casino and not take care of your self and family?, where as using your head and using money management tools , ie, taking care of your bills, your family, putting food on the table, having an emergency fund for lifes lil problems that may arise and after all is said and done, if you have extra income available, then your good to gamble, "going bust" just isnt a term for gambling......it happens in real life alot..............laurie

 

[Pinababy69]

That's very true Laurie, all of it. And.....spending money that you don't have, or going over your budget....tends to try and make you justify why you lost. As in the casino must be rigged. That's just a general opinion, and certainly not directed toward the OP here, or anything like that. All I know is that if you lose money you cannot afford to...or if you are counting on a big win to "save the day", then you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

Okay, back on topic Trade. Again, I apologize.

 

[steinhaug]

With a proprietary software program, couldn't they adjust payouts and outcomes as they see fit? This is my burning question for the day!

The answer is yes! And easily aswell, like many landbased video slots you could in real-time skew the payout by pre-programmed cycles. The system can easily ignore certain wins (typical jackpot) and save it for later, it could control payout in picking rounds, freespins and whatever. With proprietary systems you do have all the control.

By using compartmentalization you could easily guard industry secrets, as the real culprit here is how are the strains of numbers generated! Are they really random or do are they influenced by something.

I mention compartmentalization since in the RTG thread one of the developers was actively in the thread defending the RNG, however as a strategy designer of the games. He doesn't work with the RNG, the RNG was already in place as I understood from his posts when they implemented their slots. Again - we just have to assume the RNG is correct.

Do Vegas Video Slots get markeded as random really, or as entertainment machines with a certain expected payout? I believe the problem online arrived since the machines are supposedly random - being there should be no influence.

The operaters also have shot their own foot since they also say that demonimations and coin size and line numbers do not affect the spins!

Excuse me - they are really insulting my intelligence!

This fact alone prooves for an intelligent brain the system is balanced, which in itself is ok as you get expected payout in the end - but it is not random! They must relabel their product!

PubJoe.
He comes in a thread about a Casino he has never played at and declares how fair online gaming is and anyone who suspects and says otherwise is a whinger and of course he sets himself apart from "all these gamblers"
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

LOL! Good observation Rusty! Cui bono? Now why would a person jump into an argument to protect one of the involved parts, and also choosing the part he doesn't know at all?

Yo! Rusty, I belive such behaviour can be cooked down into one familiar word : random! LOL!

 

[steinhaug]

I got stuck in this article, a very interesting read on the "open parts" of the casino business. Gives you alot of insight in atleast the white-version of it, and how it should be if we all had our way - the utopia of slots

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First of the whole article is very interesting, and I have to take all the references one by one to delve into. But as a few highlights just to get into atleast some controversy,

Take a look at the part with condensed reels and legalized near misses. And what about the comfertable "valid" argument:

According to the gambling industry, slot machines are no longer programmed to create near misses

What excactly does that mean, according to? Is that a truth, is it a lie? Is it 1/100 or 99/100, does such a statement have merit at all?

To be honest, according to the vikings the world is flat!

Also, since we have court cases aswell as references clearly this was the norm. Anyways - the systems are proprietary so we never know what happends today do we?

I also enjoy the Fox News way of putting their agenda on the screen by formulating their "Some people say [insert whatever you like]".

So while the likes of me and Rusty are accused of pulling bits and pieces and creating our own truth to fit our cause - we are working against arguments like "according to...". Seems the coin do have 2 sides!

*back to read rest of the article, interesting read*

 

[tim5ny]

"According to the gambling industry, slot machines are no longer programmed to create near misses "

I never get excited over near-misses in the least bit...never have. It's as far from a win as any other losing spin as far as I'm concerned.

 

[steinhaug]

"According to the gambling industry, slot machines are no longer programmed to create near misses "

I never get excited over near-misses in the least bit...never have. It's as far from a win as any other losing spin as far as I'm concerned.

Technically that is true, either it is a match or it is not. However you must admit near misses do trigger the excitement and adrenalin while playing, especially when the near miss is at reel 5... What about the slowdown spinanimation when missing the feature symbol... Ohh the agony... Come on come on come on... The perception of having reels fuels the near miss, humans are not computers and we do not live in binary world,

Knowing this, I totally agree with you though! It is wasting valuable efforts and energy getting upset of something that gives you nothing - near slot misses!

 

[tim5ny]

Ok..... If I have 4 and am waiting for the 5th to come in...that's different! I'm on the edge of my seat then, but I thought you meant near-misses that end up paying nothing.

 

[mercy]

Congrats on your win Timmy

 

[KasinoKing]

I believe you have forgotten all about compulsive gamblers KK, at least I hope so and that you do not do it deliberately. Why do a drunken man keep drinking? Why do people use drugs!

I'm not sure I understand that comment to be honest.
I never forget about compulsive gamblers; I am definitely one myself and all I ever do on forums & my websites is try to help them - not to stop gambling, but to stop losing.

I wish to respond with some corrections & confirmations to many other points you made, but rather than doing lot's of quote boxes I'm just going to turn the things you posted blue!

Kimss: Anyway - bottom line is. When you are in a winning streak in MG you feel it, you feel the win is comming - and you can even switch slot and Kazam! you get the win there instead, how crazy is that! But you need to do some $18 and $20 spinning my friend to experience what we are talking about!

Me spinning at $18 or $20...! Now I know you're crazy!



.... and using every possible bonus ... and affiliate bonuses ...

I don't use every possible bonus - normally only between 5 to 8 per month.
There simply isn't enough time for me to do more, though I would like to!

I don't know what you mean by 'affiliate bonus' - I just get the exact same bonuses & terms as any other player.



On the other hand, I have to pick on KK a little since he always boasts about winning and all is fair! If you take all bonuses available during a year, you at least double your bankroll. Hovewer he is only up like 1K in the last 3 years?

I try not to boast too much about it, but that is quite hard sometimes. Put yourself in my shoes; If you were winning month after month would you keep totally quiet about it?
You certainly don't keep quiet about losing month after month!


In reality he lost a fortune, however - given the bonuses and doubling the bankroll - he managed to survive without loosing to to much of it in the process due to strick rules and timely use of excel spreadsheets! So - what does he win without doing all the bonuses? He is a looser - just as the rest of us playing the slots! The card players however, there at least skill is revarded!

I am not, never have been and never will be a looser!
What I am is a loser! (When are you going to start spelling that right!)

Seriously though, you are quite right - without the bonuses I am a loser.
I'm not even going to confirm it by checking all my stats - I'm fairly sure I've lost more than I've deposited (ignoring bonuses) every year since I started.

I don't agree about card players being skilled & slots players not though. Both games require a lot of luck and a little bit of strategy if the player is to be profitable.

Bonuses are definitely the key to my success - both in giving me a head start and most importantly; a stopping point.


Also, is it really worth it investing all these hundreds of hours for $333 a year? So I would argue the statement being succesful is a little meaningless for me, but then again I am one of those high rollers looking for a big hit which I can accually buy something for,
Winning 1K should be a good night - not a succesful 3 year period, come on! He is a slot surviver, not a slot champion!

Well I'm confused again! Where on earth did you pluck those figures from?

For the record, these are my yearly results (nett profit):-
2001: +$576 (May-Dec)
2002: +$5,174
2003: +$4,059
2004: +$1,705
2005: +$5,008 (Nearly all slots play from this year onwards)
2006: +$4,339
2007: +$8,427
2008: +$8,184 (So far: Jan-Sep)

(Detailed monthly break-down available

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).

Yes it is very time consuming. I reckon I play on average 2hrs every day (probably on the conservative side!), so that's 730hrs per year; take 2006 for an example - that works out at $5.94/hr max.
A lot of people probably wouldn't even get out of bed for that!
But this isn't a job - it's a hobby I enjoy - and I get paid for having fun! (Most of the time )

Now you can call that successful or not - you are entitled to your opinion.
Personally I see it as very successful because for the 20 years before that my yearly net profit was -1,000's, -1,000's, -1,000's, -1,000's, etc...

I have a 'system' I use and I'm very happy with it. I don't try to "ram it down peoples throats" (at least - I hope not!); it's all detailed on my website & I'm always happy to give people advice and explain my methods on the forums too. I just tell people what I do; I don't make any promises or guarantees, but then I'm not selling anything. If other people want to try it - good luck to them - I hope it works for them too!



(hope i'm not offending anyone with this rant here - it's hard to make a point without mentioning names)

Well I'm certainly not offended (if you meant me!). I like reading your posts, comments & opinions. I don't necessarily agree with them but they're usually very interesting.


I am an addict - I crave to spin - I will always miss the game - the rush - it's in my blood - and it's in all of you people in the meister forum aswell - rigged or not - I need my fix, just like you do! Some of us play harder, most of us loose our heads and chase losses and reverse the withdrawals. Hey - we are gamblers! I know some people have a hard time admitting it for themselves, but the fact remains. What I need to do is to keep my deposits low so I can live with the cost of my nemesis! Either that or booze and women,

I'm with most of that!
Even I chase losses sometimes, but I have never reversed a withdrawal.
I agree about the booze.. but not the women. With a slot machine you can play with it, have fun then walk away - you don't have to take it out to dinner and start a conversation with it afterwards!


In the end - nothing matters anyway! We will all be dead in a 100 years!

I wish!
If I'm very lucky I might make another 40...
Kinda depressing thought that - I think I'll go play some slots!!!

 

[steinhaug]

What can I say KK, a very nice read. Made me smile a few times there, and yes I was referring to you. However I see I did a few mistakes in my assumptions which you clarified quite nicely!

Regarding the 'affiliate bonus' a missassumption by me again, I was sure your webpage had affiliate banners which you cashed in (no problems with that), my bad.

Seems I am not doing my homework to good, Shame on me!

For the record, these are my yearly results (nett profit):-
2001: +$576 (May-Dec)
2002: +$5,174
2003: +$4,059
2004: +$1,705
2005: +$5,008 (Nearly all slots play from this year onwards)
2006: +$4,339
2007: +$8,427
2008: +$8,184 (So far: Jan-Sep)

There I go for not checking the facts, those wins are infact kinda good! If I were to NOT reverse and to STOP i could pretty much state the same, however I have a long way in mind and willpower to accomplish this, :/

 

[KasinoKing]

Regarding the 'affiliate bonus' a missassumption by me again, I was sure your webpage had affiliate banners which you cashed in (no problems with that), my bad.

Yes my site has lots of affiliate banners, and I do make money that way too.
But I never talk about that on the forum. When I say I'm winning or losing money I'm only talking about as a normal player depositing & playing with my own money (plus the bonuses of course!) in the casinos.
The two are entirely separate things.
KK

 

[Alexishot69]

KK

just noticed a wee thing on your BIG post regarding help for slots players..now im not saying i need help as such more in need of a SERIOUS lesson on how to play them cos i have a serious issue with non stop losing...any help woul dbbe appreciated...lol..and hey $5.94 an hour id settle for sadly my deposits even low rolling at about 25 $ per hour... tried 32red again tonight and wham just str8 thruso any advice would be great


ps if i have derailed here please feel free to gimme a smacked ass

 

[KasinoKing]

just noticed a wee thing on your BIG post regarding help for slots players..now im not saying i need help as such more in need of a SERIOUS lesson on how to play them cos i have a serious issue with non stop losing...any help woul dbbe appreciated...lol..and hey $5.94 an hour id settle for sadly my deposits even low rolling at about 25 $ per hour... tried 32red again tonight and wham just str8 thruso any advice would be great

I have no desire to turn this into a KK promo thread, but you might find a clue in my signature!

ps if i have derailed here please feel free to gimme a smacked ass

If you look anything like your avatar, me & my smacking hand will be on the next plane to Bonnie Scotland!

 

[winbig]

If you look anything like your avatar, me & my smacking hand will be on the next plane to Bonnie Scotland!

I'm telling Missus KK...

 

[Alexishot69]

hmmm

I have no desire to turn this into a KK promo thread, but you might find a clue in my signature!


If you look anything like your avatar, me & my smacking hand will be on the next plane to Bonnie Scotland!

Not quite sure if i liked the "IF" word so have been provoked into adding more pics...

read through your pages in brief will be back after work to read the rest KK and lookslike its gonna be god reading...hope y alike the pics and NO heart attacks ok?

 

[pubjoe]

Hi,

A bit late coming back here!! Sorry, but last time I logged in on my phone, I saw I had a page or twos worth of posts to answer for and never got round to the hard work of thanking, quoting, arguing (etc)!

The main thing I want to say about my earlier posts is that, yes, I was talking about generalities in casino software, (thanks Pinababy69), I do not have an opinion at all on 3dice.

I probably should have started a new thread to say what I wanted to say. I was just reading this one and the same old "online casino games are rigged ...Listen to how I just got ripped" stuff came up and I was spurred to post. I know my posts were long, but I hope that anyone who did read them can see what they were in reply too.

I am sorry that I didn't make that clearer earlier - posting my thoughts on a thread about a specific casino was not a wise thing to do.

I am actually a bit embarrassed about listing some of my runs of luck (I have obviously had the bad too, I just didn't mention many of them). I also think that banging on about one-off occasions like these are meaningless, but I only did so as a direct response to a previous poster to me who talked of specific unlikely bad runs he'd had. ...Was just a bit of "balancing" That's all.

Regarding 3dice: I would not like to surmise on how fair they are at all. A selection of casino's have rigged software before and they'll do it again (I did point out a known rigged software group earlier). But my opinion, and the most important point, is that balancing and win cycles IS THE SAME THING as rigging. We should never accept that of course they're all programmed this way. Casinos that do this should be avoided at all costs. But as it is not something I can say I have personally experienced (despite incredible bad luck runs like the 2,000,000-to-1 shot I mentioned earlier).

...Therefore, I feel that rigging is not the norm accross all software. This was basically the point of my posts. The good, most popular casino software, that I use myself (Microgaming and Chartwell as the main two for me - though I play many others), I am certain give a fair and random representation of the games that they emulate. I don't like the opinion that it is usual that all software will rig hands in order to balance itself out and that all casinos should be painted with the same brush. Software like this is an unfortunate exception and I repeat, I would not like to surmise on 3dice's fairness. Although I would have probably raised an eyebrow if their rep PM'd me patting me on the back for sticking up for them and their high-variance games.

As I said, I should have started a new thread to talk about it.

 

[pubjoe]

PubJoe.
He comes in a thread about a Casino he has never played at and declares how fair online gaming is and anyone who suspects and says otherwise is a whinger and of course he sets himself apart from "all these gamblers"
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Come on, that's a bit unfair. I don't wish to set myself apart from any gamblers. I myself am ashamed of some idiotic things I've done. I did point this out earlier when I admitted that I can chase like a lunatic. FFS, in the heat of the moment I whinge of being ripped off myself when the dealer repeatedly makes those creative 21s against me time after time. Actually, in the blind heat of the moment, I know I would disagree with everything I've been saying here. But this is a discussion, I'm not gambling at this moment, I am subjectively reflecting ...and can admit that with the bad comes the good (but usually less of it).

I don't think that saying gamblers can be bad losers is an unfair insult either. When I mentioned the thought process of gamblers, I was careful to state "we". None of us find it easy to admit that we did something stupid. We'd rather say that we were conned than that we'd knowingly made a bad bet.

Oh pubjoe i'm a man by the way mate

Oops! Sorry.

 

[pubjoe]

One other thing. (Someone mentioned this earlier). I don't believe AT ALL that the masses presume that online casinos are fair. "Yuhh right, like I'd trust them with my credit card " is the response of pretty much most normal people with a healthy scepticism. Casino's don't profit from the public's trusting nature. Our scepticism is a hurdle that has taken many years and much cost for the online casinos to even slightly overcome. Don't presume that I'm being blind like a sheep to trust the casinos that I play.

It has taken me a lot of years and experience to overcome most of my suspicions.

There was a single incident that helped recently when I got a big royal flush win that changed a casino's advertised 4-play JoB payout %.

This answered a lot of questions about their transparency. It was my first deposit with them. It randomly hit. They investigated (normal practice for a win of the size). They paid. They truthfully amended the whole year's overall payout % for the game. (Going from about 96% to 99.9% ...In a cycled game, that just wouldn't happen).

It's the sort of thing that I had to experience first hand to truly trust them. I feel that I have been fortunate to gain that insight.

(StanJames by the way)

 

[pubjoe]

...And okay, okay, I derailed the thread. (The 3dice title was pointed out to me a couple of times).

...But after all that Betty Rubble and Wilma Flintstone stuff. I thought it was fair game!

 

[same_old]

Hi All,

Firstly I want to say sorry for dragging this thread up again.

As you will see initially I closed the account for good due to some play I had with 3-dice.
I played BJ and lost over $1300-$1500 just on BJ over a course of a few days.

I honestly thought I wasnt getting a fair game so my mind started to wonder a bit and I said thinigs here that I shouldnt have without any solid proof.

It has now come to my attention that 3-dice recently had an Audit on there software and can confirm everything was above board as stated in the Audit.

So, this is the reason I have baught this thread up again. I need to retract the negative things I said.

I formally apologise to you 3-dice, Anna and Enzo for the negative posts I have made in relation to the fairness of your software, It was uncalled for especially when I didnt have any facts to go on but my own personal vendetta for the terrible black jack play I had.

I just think it is the right thing to do since Enzo got the Audit done and the facts are now known.

Once again 3-dice please accept my humble apologises for the negative threads I have posted.


Regards,

Same_Old

 

[Pinababy69]

Wow same_old....that is a super post for you to make. We could all learn something from someone not too big to apologize. Big kudos to you.

 

[3Dice]

Hi Same_old,

My hat off to you. It takes a big person to make a post like that. We'll
let bye-gones be bye-gones and just call it a clean slate .

Ciao,

Enzo