No more 3dice for me :)!!

I agree with you to a certain extent, that is until the program re-evaluates your play/bet patterns and then it re-adjusts itself accordingly...

Like fruities do? Part of most fruit machine "emptier" methods involve adopting a play style to "make the machine happy". This would be just as possible with online casino software.

(Sorry about the language :oops: )
 
Like fruities do? Part of most fruit machine "emptier" methods involve adopting a play style to "make the machine happy". This would be just as possible with online casino software.

(Sorry about the language :oops: )

Yep...totally agree there pubjoe !! :cool:
 
Shame.

From the "other side of the counter", I have never seen a customer's betting system that I would ever want to discourage. And off course (as you would mathematically expect) the odd guy will maintain a winning period for an indefinite amount of time.

There are more optimal and less optimal ways to bet. The best way to reduce the certainty of being ground down by the house edge is to increase your likely variance and hope for a bit of luck.

FWIW, I had a good year last year and a better year this year. I must admit, I am guilty of chasing when I gamble, which makes me very likely to come out of each session on top, but at the expense of a smaller risk of greater ruin.

I'd have been interested to compare strategies, as by chasing, I will increase stakes after a "cold run". I'd like to have known if you play anything like this yourself and put your winnings down to a successful system.

Personally, I am aware that I could end up playing a dangerous game, but have been fortunate enough, that my float has seen me through the losses enough to eventually come out winning the majority of the time.

I don't fool myself that I have a winning system. I am well aware of the risks I have taken at a large stake. I could even use my past two years of staking strategy (at lower denominations) to prove a winning strategy.

But I am not so naive.

I've had a good couple of years lately, just as I've had a bad couple of years before. At the moment, my good couple of years more than makes up for past losses (especially if I include every sports bet I've ever placed).

But if I look at my casino gambling, it could easily have gone the other way if select wins from my history were removed.

Maybe, I have been manipulating software without being aware of it.

After all, increasing stakes on BJ after each loss, does actually slightly reduce the house edge. If we consider the small likelihood of deck composition improving for the player after a loss, then perhaps I've been advantage betting all this time without realising it.

But hey, I know I've also been lucky here and there.

I'd very much enjoy a discussion about this. After all, I did say that I am a bit agnostic about casino software manipulation.

----------

P.S: despite what I said earlier, MG "pub slots" blatantly do deviate from the "every spin is independent" promise, despite the fact that it says so in the short write-up next to the screen-shot at game selection (but I've always considered that to be an slight misquote with the "hotnessmeter" (?) thingy). This is actually somewhat manipulatable at some casinos in certain situations. But as with bonus scraping, not something I can be bothered with these days.

The more general casino games and their programming, I very much enjoy discussing. Though I will find it very hard to fathom why they would be on a cycle. Take a fair game with a house edge and add in some compulsive gamblers and the casino has a winning formula in the long run. Why would they instead risk being exposed to workable systems, when the total payout % would still be apparently the same. And why would so many casinos illegally break the customers contract, by not giving a fair game?

I know some have done, and surely some more do. But, why a well known, popular, profitable casino would feel the need is a mystery.
 
...There are more optimal and less optimal ways to bet. The best way to reduce the certainty of being ground down by the house edge is to increase your likely variance and hope for a bit of luck.

FWIW, I had a good year last year and a better year this year. I must admit, I am guilty of chasing when I gamble, which makes me very likely to come out of each session on top, but at the expense of a smaller risk of greater ruin.

I'd have been interested to compare strategies, as by chasing, I will increase stakes after a "cold run". I'd like to have known if you play anything like this yourself and put your winnings down to a successful system.

Personally, I am aware that I could end up playing a dangerous game, but have been fortunate enough, that my float has seen me through the losses enough to eventually come out winning the majority of the time.

I don't fool myself that I have a winning system. I am well aware of the risks I have taken at a large stake. I could even use my past two years of staking strategy (at lower denominations) to prove a winning strategy.

But I am not so naive.

I've had a good couple of years lately, just as I've had a bad couple of years before. At the moment, my good couple of years more than makes up for past losses (especially if I include every sports bet I've ever placed).

But if I look at my casino gambling, it could easily have gone the other way if select wins from my history were removed.

Maybe, I have been manipulating software without being aware of it.

After all, increasing stakes on BJ after each loss, does actually slightly reduce the house edge. If we consider the small likelihood of deck composition improving for the player after a loss, then perhaps I've been advantage betting all this time without realising it.

But hey, I know I've also been lucky here and there.

I'd very much enjoy a discussion about this. After all, I did say that I am a bit agnostic about casino software manipulation.

----------

P.S: despite what I said earlier, MG "pub slots" blatantly do deviate from the "every spin is independent" promise, despite the fact that it says so in the short write-up next to the screen-shot at game selection (but I've always considered that to be an slight misquote with the "hotnessmeter" (?) thingy). This is actually somewhat manipulatable at some casinos in certain situations. But as with bonus scraping, not something I can be bothered with these days.

The more general casino games and their programming, I very much enjoy discussing. Though I will find it very hard to fathom why they would be on a cycle. Take a fair game with a house edge and add in some compulsive gamblers and the casino has a winning formula in the long run. Why would they instead risk being exposed to workable systems, when the total payout % would still be apparently the same. And why would so many casinos illegally break the customers contract, by not giving a fair game?

I know some have done, and surely some more do. But, why a well known, popular, profitable casino would feel the need is a mystery.
Pubjoe, you express MY opinion so much better than I am capable of doing myself! :oops:

Thanks! :notworthy
 
Pubjoe, you express MY opinion so much better than I am capable of doing myself! :oops:

Thanks! :notworthy

Thanks. Although I think my opinion might differ a little from yours in that I do believe that every individual bet I've made on an online random game has been a "bad bet" in expected return (barring bonuses).

I could have have made the exact same bets, but clicked the mouse button at a different millisecond, and my whole outcome would be completely different (and likely in the negative).
 
I must admit i find 3dice slots real tight. Even with a few of the bonus rounds they seem to pay very little. But i have found that with other gaming sites i play at also. I have 2 rtg never cashed out of one i never hit a bonus round after 27 deposits or once even over my deposit. I have 7 mg casinos and 3
are always dead for me no matter what the bet or game i play. I was more upset with 3d with their loyalty plan if they are going to have one it seemed they had set it up to be on terms i just didnt like so i stopped depositing.
I have had few cashouts with them some nice once more so mostly i donate but that is online gaming. As they add new games and have changed the loyalty plan i will deposit off and on.
 
If Streak = hot and cold runs.

A high % pay-out game that is programmed to be deliberately streaky would be victim to simple betting patterns that could manipulate this cycle of behaviour.

NO! You are hnot into programming I see! The streaks are in relation with the balancing system! There are 3 sets of randomness compared to the reels would be one example, good - normal - bad. Depending on your overall payout % you get your RNG numbers. You cannot manipulate this since you cannot win against a 95% payout. If you have +95% you simply don't get the streaky RNG-strain, hence you cannot manipulate it!

If - on the other hand - it is land based - you can - since you can leave the system and come back after other people has played. I have a feeling online you play against yourself, which really makes it impossible.
 
From the "other side of the counter", I have never seen a customer's betting system that I would ever want to discourage. And off course (as you would mathematically expect) the odd guy will maintain a winning period for an indefinite amount of time.

There are more optimal and less optimal ways to bet. The best way to reduce the certainty of being ground down by the house edge is to increase your likely variance and hope for a bit of luck.

Theese are insane advices in my opinion, especially if you are a gambler as you say you are! By now playing slots you must be aware that higher denominations has a totally different payout scheme, if they have not I have busted $100.000 at Casino Cosmopol in Guthenburg on their slots seing an illusion!

I have had the fortune of talking to people in the business, and people working the casino being "salesmen" and being "technicians". It's funny how the information changes. Video slots with denominations all have balancing schemes, the more I play and the more I read and hear I am sure of this.

The only thing you can be sure of - The lower you waher the more you win - however you win nothing of interest - however you can sit all night wagering and have free drinks (I am talking B&M here). If you increase betting you will start taking chances and most likely loose, or win something that is accually worth anything!

There could be skill in video-slots, but there is not it seems. If the system isn't ready to give you the wins - you wont get them! You can play forever, or until the system has to give it - then you win whatever you bet, bet 1 line and you get the best win possible on that line again and again to the balancing is "out". However - getting there at the right time, that is fun!

We still get the expected payout in the end - so no faul play really.
 
NO! You are hnot into programming I see! The streaks are in relation with the balancing system! There are 3 sets of randomness compared to the reels would be one example, good - normal - bad. Depending on your overall payout % you get your RNG numbers. You cannot manipulate this since you cannot win against a 95% payout. If you have +95% you simply don't get the streaky RNG-strain, hence you cannot manipulate it!

If - on the other hand - it is land based - you can - since you can leave the system and come back after other people has played. I have a feeling online you play against yourself, which really makes it impossible.

Maybe, I made my posts too long. But I am saying I don't believe that an intentional streak on a random game exists. Is that what you're disagreeing with?

I do not believe that your whole future's play on one game is predetermined at the time that you open the account. It does not systematically keep a set % payout in check. For example, I have played an astronomical amount of VP hands over the years, but due to changes of stake to maximise varience, I am far, far from the expected return.

I actually had this belief recently confirmed (on chartwell software at least) when I hit a 20,000 royal at Stan James and it increased their advertised year's 4-play JoB payouts from 97% to 99.9%
 
Theese are insane advices in my opinion, especially if you are a gambler as you say you are! By now playing slots you must be aware that higher denominations has a totally different payout scheme, if they have not I have busted $100.000 at Casino Cosmopol in Guthenburg on their slots seing an illusion!

I have had the fortune of talking to people in the business, and people working the casino being "salesmen" and being "technicians". It's funny how the information changes. Video slots with denominations all have balancing schemes, the more I play and the more I read and hear I am sure of this.

The only thing you can be sure of - The lower you waher the more you win - however you win nothing of interest - however you can sit all night wagering and have free drinks (I am talking B&M here). If you increase betting you will start taking chances and most likely loose, or win something that is accually worth anything!

There could be skill in video-slots, but there is not it seems. If the system isn't ready to give you the wins - you wont get them! You can play forever, or until the system has to give it - then you win whatever you bet, bet 1 line and you get the best win possible on that line again and again to the balancing is "out". However - getting there at the right time, that is fun!

We still get the expected payout in the end - so no faul play really.

Advice? I'm merely stating the difference between high variance and low variance, to point out that no one wins by using a "system", the occasional player merely wins due to variance and nothing else. Neither high nor low variance have any different expected value to the customer, but one is certain to lose. For example, A: a 370 bet on one roulette number, or B: a 10 bet on every number ...Despite one of them being high risk... The other is guaranteed to lose ≈2.7% on every bet.

Most people on bet B will lose but the occasional lucky punter will do well. But both bets A and B have the exact same expected return.

I stated, I am all to aware of the risks playing at high variance. I am by no means "advising" ANYONE to do the same. Personally, I have allways been a bit of an addict anyway and I would not wish to put that on anyone.

If you truly enjoy betting for extended periods on low variance at a guaranteed cost for your entertainment. Then fine.

The only thing you can be sure of - The lower you waher the more you win
So you are calling rigged? Of where are you referring? This is a serious allegation and unfortunately it does sometimes exist.
 
:)

Maybe, I made my posts too long. But I am saying I don't believe that a intentional streak on a random game exists. Is that what you're disagreeing with.

Yes - that is my argument.

I do not believe that your whole future's play on one game is predetermined at the time that you open the account. It does not systematically keep a set % payout in check. For example, I have played an astronomical amount of VP hands over the years, but due to changes of stake to maximise varience, I am far, far from the expected return.

It doesn't need to be! Within the "bad" streak there will still be good wins, however just that it will mainly suck you down. Like in the good streak the wins in general outweights your betting so you get a positive balance. (Like you need 20 one dollar spins to win $10. However in a good streak you get lot's if $2 wins during the 20 spins, so in the end your balance increases, other way around with bad streak).

So in my scenario, you can still win - however the odds are "balanced" so that you really shouldn't. Sure you might have luck. When you have lost by far to much, the system will give you a push in the right direction and you get those great wins again - and CS can confirm and greet you with happyness!

I also belive that online accounts share one memory, while a B&M slot shares the memory of all their players. What I mean - you play a slot todag - and wait a day and continue - you continue where you left off - nobody played in between.

This is my simplest explernation without putting to many levels of conditional statements into affect, since you could have "random balancing schemes" into affect aswell, making the system appear random only giving the user super bad luck, often followed by 95% of super good luck, :D
 
But a true RNG has no memory.

If I believe that not to be the case in any casino, I would not play there (except to perhaps manipulate it's predictability if it wasn't for the fact that a casino using fixed results would just as likely not pay out!). I have played at a lot of (trusted) casinos for a lot of time and have not ever personally experienced "fixed results", "balancing" or "streaks", yet unfortunately, I have heard of those famous cases of fixing (which I do believe).

If a %age is kept in check, then the routine would have to be programmed with a cap on how far wins can deviate, or with some sort of incremental probability of swing. I stand by the fact that this could be manipulated in exactly the same way as land fruit machines can. It's just that you would not be able to return to that particular game if it were true to expect some balancing out.

I've experienced the "incriminating" spells of bad luck, but I've also experienced the reverse. IE: I have joined a casino as a new player, played at high stakes and done very well. Are you saying that on my return to that particular casino, if I played the same game, I should have expected a disadvantageous game? If I returned at low stakes, I suppose I could expect to get severely raped while it "balances" itself out?

[edit] ...And also, by your logic, if I was to return today, to all the casinos where I have ever lost a large amount with a very poor average payout %, I would have an amazingly successful day. That would most certainly be manipulation.

I just don't buy it. At least, not if I trust the casino to give a fair game. ...And I just don't see any purpose in programming a complicated routine of intentional mind games. Not when a truly random game with a house advantage has exactly the right balance in natural variance to send a compulsive gambler into a haze of misguided belief anyway. It has worked this way very successfully for many a century and it works so well because there is no routine, there is no pattern, there is no system, there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

If online games worked like AWPs, there would not be many long term customers.

(Oh, for the record, I have never played at 3dice. I mainly play at a few MG and chartwell casinos.)
 
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RE: "at lower denominations"...

When I used the word "denomination", earlier, I meant it in the true definition of the word. I wasn't referring to video slot coin denominations, so please disregard difference in pay tables. I was musing on creating a pseudo strategy, by taking my typical bet size but scaling it down. Just to make things crystal clear - I don't actually believe in any value in a staking system as this - I was merely pointing out that I am aware I can gamble/chase like an idiot - but many systems are just as idiotic. Any long term wins gained by either are purely coincidence and are a fluke of variance.
 
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But a true RNG has no memory.

True, but I do not belive any video slot operates with a true RNG, it does operate with something that can be hold in court if the thing is promoted as if it were true RNG. Video slots simply isn't true RNG, just like more and more of the makers are rebranding the slots to become "entertainment machines" instead.

Are you saying that on my return to that particular casino, if I played the same game, I should have expected a disadvantageous game? If I returned at low stakes, I suppose I could expect to get severely raped while it "balances" itself out?

I do not belive the games to run seperately. Just like if you loose big in one game, and switch game you are likely to win. Do this over again and again and you will have big payouts on one machine while one kills you - just as we players play in "patterns" you will see the same payout patterns. Atleast my gameplay shows this. You will also be able to "skew" what slots you are winning at.

Taken my simple explernation, to make a simple theory as an example.

Say you have a true RNG. Say we precalculate a complete cycle, which is true RNG in its true meaning. We do this so that any checking in the results will only proove bad louck or extremely luck.

Then we devide the strain of RNG into 3 strains, one containing a very bad streak in total - still containing great wins however! Create a medium strain and a winning strain.

Any slot will balance the same way, feeding you one of the different strains.

This slot will also be 100% random - however balanced, rigged or what you want to call it. This system would also be very good to sell because:

1. You can ensure the players a great experience, since most players get a winning streak, however the catch is you get obvious loosing streaks aswell. In the end you get promoted payout.
2. The strains could be primed so that jackpot does't go at once, so that the casinos most likely don't start up with paying the jackpot.

Atleast this is the way I would make the casino, and there is no chance in hell you could detect it - except that it looks very apparent at the top - just like the online casinos does!

If you get my point here, you can still win - however not likely! If you loose to much, you are guaranteed to win since the system won't allow any users to have a 50% payout over a long duration!

Maby we the players demand the industry to make the systems like this, maby it is a self fullfilling prophesy, I do not know. But the argument is that theese slots are true RNG and not balanced at all! We also have no clue why we can only have one account at the casino, I would be much more happy if I could create a new account each time I wager - then I know the system won't use previous history to do anything!

Remember we are in the computer age - and data is power! Why even have the playcheck data if not used for anything, it simply doesn't work that way! In any business real people will corrupt everything, if I would do it - why wouldn't they?

All experience I have with slots, and from the gaming industry here in norway who at a stage had reprogrammed vegas slots in the stall - have programmable motherboards. If they do - are we to belive the online industry with even more computing power, and possibility to endless and seamless updates in the background - they are not supposed to do?

A machine should pay out the expected payout - aslong as they do this I guess everyone is happy, atleast in the business that checks them.

Coffe time!
 
if what you were suggesting is true, the following would be possible:

kimss casino RNG - manipulator

1. Open accounts at 100 casinos.
2. Pay 100 games on high stakes at each.
3. Withdraw from winning accounts.
4. return to losing accounts and replay at low stakes.
5. Await for "balancing".
6. Retire.

But honestly, that just wouldn't happen.

Balancing would not be undetectable , it would be detectable from a mile away.

Why go to the effort (while breaking law) anyway? When the majority of punters already believe in the non-existent streak pattern.

It's much more effective for a casino to inspire a gamblers loss of better sense and control by leaving them to chase the white rabbit.
 
I must admit i find 3dice slots real tight. Even with a few of the bonus rounds they seem to pay very little. But i have found that with other gaming sites i play at also. I have 2 rtg never cashed out of one i never hit a bonus round after 27 deposits or once even over my deposit. I have 7 mg casinos and 3
are always dead for me no matter what the bet or game i play. I was more upset with 3d with their loyalty plan if they are going to have one it seemed they had set it up to be on terms i just didnt like so i stopped depositing.
I have had few cashouts with them some nice once more so mostly i donate but that is online gaming. As they add new games and have changed the loyalty plan i will deposit off and on.

Lauram,

I would have understood if you didnt get a single cashout from 27 deposits at the 2 RTGs but 27 deposits with no bonus rounds. Now that really is something.
 
hi guys!

what are you all talking about?

Be careful when you bet max credits..it doesn't increase your odds of winning! ..that's the only advice I have for now...I'll be back later though!
 

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