No enjoyment anymore

[dunover]

Where were you playing it at though?
PnG games have more than one RTP setting, quite a few casinos are now using the secondary 94.xx% games, rather than the primary 96.xx%
I'd check the rpt in the helpfile before playing any PnG games

Yes, good point. They can actually be operated at way under 94-ish % too. I reckon people refer to that figure because it came out that certain casinos were using it, but it can be lower still. Play'n Go can pretty much set them up for whatever you choose, although this should be visible to the player - but not in all jurisdictions. I think this is why the rogue 1668/JAZ scum and other unregulated shitholes use Play'n Go heavily, although I'm not sure it matters to them considering that whatever % they use they'll not pay the poor bastards who win big.

 

[bruinsdude]

I think the issue is too many choices, too many buy a features out there, and too many good games. Things were much easier when all you had to do was deposit for a 50% to 100% daily dish at 32 Red and select either Immortal Romance, or Thunderstruck II....and slow play at 30-60c and have a ball all night on $50.

 

[brianmon]

Yes, good point. They can actually be operated at way under 94-ish % too. I reckon people refer to that figure because it came out that certain casinos were using it, but it can be lower still. Play'n Go can pretty much set them up for whatever you choose, although this should be visible to the player - but not in all jurisdictions. I think this is why the rogue 1668/JAZ scum and other unregulated shitholes use Play'n Go heavily, although I'm not sure it matters to them considering that whatever % they use they'll not pay the poor bastards who win big.

I can't say I've come across any UKGC sites using less than the 94% setting.... yet.
I don't really play PnG slots. But I do always check the PnG RTP at any new sites I'm considering playing at, and use it as an indicator of their integrity (for want of a better word)

 

[brianmon]

I think the issue is too many choices, too many buy a features out there, and too many good games. Things were much easier when all you had to do was deposit for a 50% to 100% daily dish at 32 Red and select either Immortal Romance, or Thunderstruck II....and slow play at 30-60c and have a ball all night on $50.

I'd be quite happy doing that again, if only 32Red still did 50% and 100% bonuses

 

[Playford7]

No, I know you wasn't, it's all water under the bridge. Apart from Daz, do you watch any other slot videos on youtube etc..? I only really watch the bandit and daz, I might once in a blue moon just peek at rocknrolla's channel to see what he's been up to, hypalinx doesn't seem to do online slots now, more arcade/fruities and jimbo and craig seem to have gone off to twitch, which I detest, just looking at the site layout brings on the screaming abdabs for some reason

I feel a bit more chilled towards the streamers now, the casino grounds etc.. they seem to have reached peak popularity a while back and their clickbait doesn't annoy me so much, and if somebody wanted to use their affiliate earnings/income to play slots all day at £2+ and film themselves doing it, that never really bothered me so much as the casinos bailing them out with multiple reload bonuses etc... to my mind these bonuses were so regularly provided that it effectively acted as untaxed/undeclared income for them to gamble with.

Edit: And importantly then plastering social media with clickbait videos, which are in a way unrealistic and misleading to the uninitiated first time viewers, people new to slots etc...

[not really sure what the tax situation is, but think I read the argument that once affiliate income is lost gambling it still has to be declared and taxable, whereas these bonuses are possibly equivalent to an employee perk, I wonder do they have to pay income/ company tax on the money won during the stream where they've relied on the casino bonus that isn't given to normal players?, so if a business provides you with money on a regular basis to gamble with and you win, should it be exempt from tax the same way as normal winnings are?]

I know hyper from a long while back, always liked the guy.
I don’t actually watch any now except daz.
As for the tax thing, I’ve no idea, I go to work pay my 40% and that’s that.
sure many of the streamers have loopholes, and tbh I’d do the same if I was in there position.
many bankers and mega rich rip us off a hell of a lot more.
Nicks a good man tbh, spoke with him many times, I don’t agree with how they do it and I’ve said this many times but I’d hate to see banning or censorship as it’s going silly with the pc nanny state in the uk as it is.
Oh and to answer another thing you ask, I also watch ‘slot excitement channel’ guys as down to earth and as near to a real gambler as you can get.

 

[mack341]

Hypa's cooking vids were always oddly interesting to watch, lots of tesco finest bacon if I seem to remember

True about the loopholes, streamers would be very small fry.

I'm not in favour of censorship and banning as its a slippery slope to a kind of boring dictatorship but some self regulation from the casinos and streamers in line with responsible gambling would be sensible for all.

 

[zreb]

When the fun stops, stop. Can not agree more about DOA too, i have had quite a few wild lines and one feature paid over 8500x Bonanza however my highest win in a couple of hundred thousand spins has been 700x. It just feels like other base games are boring compared to a lot of the megaways slots, I can't really explain it.

That does sound impressively low for that many spins. Some of the most popular slots - and this even includes IR back in the day - may owe much of their popularity to making it look like those huge 2000x hits are much more likely than they are.

So that probably means bonanza either has a large chunk of its RTP invested in small base game wins that keep you churning through your money, or that the super rare 10,000x wins being possible means the 1000-2000x wins are even rarer (since the RTP allocated for those lottery wins has to come from somewhere). Maybe a bit of both.

Yeah me too, would be nice to see what sort of realistic payouts on normal stakes can be expected rather than wins on stakes that 80% of the population dont play at.

You can still see what the potential hits would look like, just divide by what you would normally play. For example, if a streamer hits a $2200 win on a $5 bet and you normally play around 50 cents, just divide by 10 - equivalent of a $220 win. Most slots will play the same at all stakes, contrary to the tin foil hat opinions that the slot changes the RTP with different stakes in some ingenious way to steal all their money.

I'm not the fun of BTG but the buy feature to me seems definitely a lose-lose option.

For example, in the game White Rabbit, you need to pay x100 of your initial bet to buy the feature.

It means in the bonus round the game has to pay you at least x100 to cover your purchase! But even if it pays x100 you have no profit at all!

Just think: how often (in general) you get x100 playing this game? And you will realize that it's an obvious disadvantage! I reckon the same applies to other "the buy feature games".

Well, it looks like the RTP on that game is >97%, so you probably are really getting almost 100x for the average feature buy unless you think it's rigged. Of course, you can lose money very fast if you're playing 100x feature buys at the stake you normally spin at, so considering decreasing from your normal spin stake if you want any play time on some of these feature buys.

 

[dogshead1]

Where were you playing it at though?
PnG games have more than one RTP setting, quite a few casinos are now using the secondary 94.xx% games, rather than the primary 96.xx%
I'd check the rpt in the helpfile before playing any PnG games

Was at Casino Hereos. Same time and place I had such poor run on Vikings Unleashed. I also expressed my concern in that chat about them returning my withdraw al which was unjustified as what difference does it make if I request a withdrawal via Trustly or Debit card so long as the account number is the same as was in this case. After being fed A load of troff about player protection etc I requested a contact for the developer of Vikings Unleashed which they said prior I needed to speak to about any abnormallity within the game. They then refused lol and have since closed my account without explanation or notification. Hmmm some player protection, that seems the complete opposite!

After all these whole experiences have certainly helped me make a formal decision about online gambling. I’m still owed 2.7k from Smartlive after their multimillion pound scam they pulled.

Scenerios like this does make you wonder. I’ve deposited thousands past few months and wagered thousands not even touched my bonuses or gems yet which are worth a fair bit and woulda been a good opportunity to recoup some of my recent losses only to have all that taken away for a fair and justified Critism internally over withdrawal.

 

[Gaz237]

Was at Casino Hereos. Same time and place I had such poor run on Vikings Unleashed. I also expressed my concern in that chat about them returning my withdraw al which was unjustified as what difference does it make if I request a withdrawal via Trustly or Debit card so long as the account number is the same as was in this case. After being fed A load of troff about player protection etc I requested a contact for the developer of Vikings Unleashed which they said prior I needed to speak to about any abnormallity within the game. They then refused lol and have since closed my account without explanation or notification. Hmmm some player protection, that seems the complete opposite!

After all these whole experiences have certainly helped me make a formal decision about online gambling. I’m still owed 2.7k from Smartlive after their multimillion pound scam they pulled.

Scenerios like this does make you wonder. I’ve deposited thousands past few months and wagered thousands not even touched my bonuses or gems yet which are worth a fair bit and woulda been a good opportunity to recoup some of my recent losses only to have all that taken away for a fair and justified Critism internally over withdrawal.

Maybe from your conversation with them, they have deduced that you may have a problem with gambling, hence closing your account.

 

[brianmon]

Was at Casino Hereos. Same time and place I had such poor run on Vikings Unleashed. I also expressed my concern in that chat about them returning my withdraw al which was unjustified as what difference does it make if I request a withdrawal via Trustly or Debit card so long as the account number is the same as was in this case. After being fed A load of troff about player protection etc I requested a contact for the developer of Vikings Unleashed which they said prior I needed to speak to about any abnormallity within the game. They then refused lol and have since closed my account without explanation or notification. Hmmm some player protection, that seems the complete opposite!

Casino Heroes are one of the (now) many sites who have PnG games set at the lower 94.xx%.
BoD is 94.25% there.
The standard setting is 96.21%
That 2% DOES make a difference

 

[Reelsoffun]

You can still see what the potential hits would look like, just divide by what you would normally play. For example, if a streamer hits a $2200 win on a $5 bet and you normally play around 50 cents, just divide by 10 - equivalent of a $220 win. Most slots will play the same at all stakes, contrary to the tin foil hat opinions that the slot changes the RTP with different stakes in some ingenious way to steal all their money.

Wrong, you can't just do that as a lot of slots although have the same RTP at different stakes they often have different profiles at the lower stakes, so would skew the results, its nothing to do with tin foil hattery, its fact, so you can't just divide the wins to see the potential for the lower stake.

Some slots you can really tell this is happening, others, not so obvious and some don't use this method, but its just one of the legal tricks slot designers can use to mix things up in slot design.

 

[zreb]

Wrong, you can't just do that as a lot of slots although have the same RTP at different stakes they often have different profiles at the lower stakes, so would skew the results, its nothing to do with tin foil hattery, its fact, so you can't just divide the wins to see the potential for the lower stake.

Some slots you can really tell this is happening, others, not so obvious and some don't use this method, but its just one of the legal tricks slot designers can use to mix things up in slot design.

Well, if you want me to start constructing my own tinfoil hat, you could at least get me started and try to provide a plausible reason for how the casino stands to gain from such a thing.

Do they increase the variance for low rollers? Decrease it? Is the human psychology of a low roller different from a high roller so they need a different math profile to properly exploit it?

They don't change the RTP, at least not in regulated jurisdictions, without telling you, so that can't be it. So the only possibility would be decreasing or increasing the variance. That's literally about all they could do.

Slot providers and casinos have a much simpler and more effective way of attracting your attention and taking advantage of your gambling desires rather than magically changing a slot whenever you change the stakes - they simply offer a variety of different games that already have different math models, themes, features, and variance so you can choose what you want.

A slot like bonanza doesn't magically become low variance or low RTP if your stake is less than a dollar - I mean, if anything they'd want the opposite, they would want lower win potential at the high stakes to lower their maximum possible loss and increase high roller spins and playthrough, while having the low rollers post 10,000x wins on a forum and generate buzz. But they don't do that either. They develop a math model that they think is the most effective at appealing to players, and that's that. A slot with a math profile that is fun or appealing to low rollers likely also appeals to high rollers, and vice versa. So no reason for some kind of devious swapping scheme - the casinos simply have nothing to gain from that.

Why would they want to change to a model that's worse than the best one they have (the most appealing to players), just because you change stakes?

 

[brianmon]

Wrong, you can't just do that as a lot of slots although have the same RTP at different stakes they often have different profiles at the lower stakes, so would skew the results, its nothing to do with tin foil hattery, its fact, so you can't just divide the wins to see the potential for the lower stake.

Some slots you can really tell this is happening, others, not so obvious and some don't use this method, but its just one of the legal tricks slot designers can use to mix things up in slot design.

Trancemonkey has said in another thread (I can't remember which one), where the discussion was about max win caps, that it is quite legal to have different maths profiles for different stakes. So long as the TRTP remains the same.

 

[dogshead1]

Maybe from your conversation with them, they have deduced that you may have a problem with gambling, hence closing your account.

Seriously you are just unreal!

 

[Guntis]

Well, it looks like the RTP on that game is >97%, so you probably are really getting almost 100x for the average feature buy unless you think it's rigged. Of course, you can lose money very fast if you're playing 100x feature buys at the stake you normally spin at, so considering decreasing from your normal spin stake if you want any play time on some of these feature buys.

I would rather play 100 spins on any "buy a feature game" than buying the feature straight away! As I explained my thoughts earlier that it's not advantageous in practice at all.

And if I would have to choose between £100 on a hand of Blackjack, roulette or "buy a feature game" I would definitely go for BJ or roulette.

 

[dogshead1]

Maybe from your conversation with them, they have deduced that you may have a problem with gambling, hence closing your account.

What’s clear is they did not like criticism from myself and internally aswell about returning money back to my account unjustified.

Further whilst your still degrading myself and the original post I’d that it’s becoming more apparent there is a very high chance you are being paid by BTG to degrade people who start forum threads to stop all the talk on how bad the slots are! It’s not as If ive seen a BTG rep pop up in such discussions even when asked for input by other members.

Just because someone has the front to relay experiences and concerns does not make them a problem gambler. In fact someone who what standards all round to be fair.

Furthermore you only degrade posts relating to BTG slots which adds further weight that your just out to quash and nullify such threads from gathering momentum. Sad life and sad person really as you offer no constructive input. Yes I may rant and so don’t we all, however I’ve had good cause to rant and chosen to do it here. I’m no streamer I can’t rant live or on recorded sessions like all affiliates do so I post here. We all have our opinions foil hats or not. Unfortunately yours are becoming a personal attack and that’s sour!

 

[zreb]

I would rather play 100 spins on any "buy a feature game" than buying the feature straight away! As I explained my thoughts earlier that it's not advantageous in practice at all.

And if I would have to choose between £100 on a hand of Blackjack, roulette or "buy a feature game" I would definitely go for BJ or roulette.

Not trying to argue for or against people taking feature buys, just saying that if it costs 100x to buy, you can be pretty confident it's got some big wins somewhere in there to justify that cost - but it will still take some luck to actually hit them.

The reason that feature buys usually have a slightly higher RTP than the base game - I would guess - is that for one reason or another, slot makers and casinos think they'll make good money off them. That's not to imply that they're unfair in any way - the answer may be as simple as the fact that it increases the speed of wagering. Or maybe one provider (BTG?) did that and everyone else just copied the model. But in any case, they seem to be pretty happy with players buying features. I have no idea if it's easier or more difficult to get ahead buying features than just playing the base game, but people should probably just do what they enjoy, and not bet too big until they're familiar with how it plays.

Hypothetically, even if your standard slot bet were, say $1 per spin, that doesn't mean you have to play the $100 feature buy. You could always play a lower base spin cost on feature buys if you felt like it so your money doesn't disappear in 2-3 minutes.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Well, if you want me to start constructing my own tinfoil hat, you could at least get me started and try to provide a plausible reason for how the casino stands to gain from such a thing.

Do they increase the variance for low rollers? Decrease it? Is the human psychology of a low roller different from a high roller so they need a different math profile to properly exploit it?

They don't change the RTP, at least not in regulated jurisdictions, without telling you, so that can't be it. So the only possibility would be decreasing or increasing the variance. That's literally about all they could do.

Slot providers and casinos have a much simpler and more effective way of attracting your attention and taking advantage of your gambling desires rather than magically changing a slot whenever you change the stakes - they simply offer a variety of different games that already have different math models, themes, features, and variance so you can choose what you want.

A slot like bonanza doesn't magically become low variance or low RTP if your stake is less than a dollar - I mean, if anything they'd want the opposite, they would want lower win potential at the high stakes to lower their maximum possible loss and increase high roller spins and playthrough, while having the low rollers post 10,000x wins on a forum and generate buzz. But they don't do that either. They develop a math model that they think is the most effective at appealing to players, and that's that. A slot with a math profile that is fun or appealing to low rollers likely also appeals to high rollers, and vice versa. So no reason for some kind of devious swapping scheme - the casinos simply have nothing to gain from that.

Why would they want to change to a model that's worse than the best one they have (the most appealing to players), just because you change stakes?

You have answered some of your own questions actually.......

Sorry never worked out how to multi quote

So i will address your points above in order....

1. I dont want or need you to construct a foil hat, its already an accepted part of slot math.

2. Depends on the game and provider of course each will have there own style of doing the math, but yes psychology plays a part in this aspect.

3. I already said they dont change the RTP and yes that isnt it. Yes its basically a slight to moderate variance shift within the same game.

4. How is that simpler and more effective than having it built in to the game to possibly appeal to more players?
example:- Ever wondered why sometimes someone hates a game, while another loves it? Its not all down to preference or overall volatility of the game, it can sometimes be down to what stake they were playing it on, as someone playing it on 20p could have a totally different experience to someone playing on £4. Have you never played a game yourself on 2 different stakes and noticed a shift in how it plays?? Really?

5. Im not saying that Bonanza uses this method as I have not played it enough to assess, nor do i have any par sheet for it, but thats exactly my point that a slot like bonanza can magically become higher or lower variance using this method.

"I mean, if anything they'd want the opposite, they would want lower win potential at the high stakes to lower their maximum possible loss and increase high roller spins and playthrough, while having the low rollers post 10,000x wins on a forum and generate buzz."
THATS EXACTLY WHAT THIS METHOD COULD/WOULD ACHIEVE to some extent.

"But they don't do that either" who says? you know that for fact do you?


Hopefully there is some plausible bits in there for you, but what would i know, i have only worked in many different areas of the gaming industry for over 30 years.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Trancemonkey has said in another thread (I can't remember which one), where the discussion was about max win caps, that it is quite legal to have different maths profiles for different stakes. So long as the TRTP remains the same.

Exactly, and I can confirm that is correct as I also explained.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

What’s clear is they did not like criticism from myself and internally aswell about returning money back to my account unjustified.

Further whilst your still degrading myself and the original post I’d that it’s becoming more apparent there is a very high chance you are being paid by BTG to degrade people who start forum threads to stop all the talk on how bad the slots are! It’s not as If ive seen a BTG rep pop up in such discussions even when asked for input by other members.

Just because someone has the front to relay experiences and concerns does not make them a problem gambler. In fact someone who what standards all round to be fair.

Furthermore you only degrade posts relating to BTG slots which adds further weight that your just out to quash and nullify such threads from gathering momentum. Sad life and sad person really as you offer no constructive input. Yes I may rant and so don’t we all, however I’ve had good cause to rant and chosen to do it here. I’m no streamer I can’t rant live or on recorded sessions like all affiliates do so I post here. We all have our opinions foil hats or not. Unfortunately yours are becoming a personal attack and that’s sour!

As if BTG would allow someone to post on this forum under a different alias, especially somebody that works for them and is only here to big up and defend their games.

Utterly scandalous to suggest such a thing.

 

[Nate]

As if BTG would allow someone to post on this forum under a different alias, especially somebody that works for them and is only here to big up and defend their games.

Utterly scandalous to suggest such a thing.

Unrelated to the discussion but purely based on your comment.

Did you miss their entrance into the forum?

Different alias - Check
'Worked' for BTG - Check
Bigged up their games - Check

Nate

 

[Playford7]

As if BTG would allow someone to post on this forum under a different alias, especially somebody that works for them and is only here to big up and defend their games.

Utterly scandalous to suggest such a thing.

BTG are about as straight as graham norton...

 

[dunover]

Well, if you want me to start constructing my own tinfoil hat, you could at least get me started and try to provide a plausible reason for how the casino stands to gain from such a thing.

Do they increase the variance for low rollers? Decrease it? Is the human psychology of a low roller different from a high roller so they need a different math profile to properly exploit it?

They don't change the RTP, at least not in regulated jurisdictions, without telling you, so that can't be it. So the only possibility would be decreasing or increasing the variance. That's literally about all they could do.

Slot providers and casinos have a much simpler and more effective way of attracting your attention and taking advantage of your gambling desires rather than magically changing a slot whenever you change the stakes - they simply offer a variety of different games that already have different math models, themes, features, and variance so you can choose what you want.

A slot like bonanza doesn't magically become low variance or low RTP if your stake is less than a dollar - I mean, if anything they'd want the opposite, they would want lower win potential at the high stakes to lower their maximum possible loss and increase high roller spins and playthrough, while having the low rollers post 10,000x wins on a forum and generate buzz. But they don't do that either. They develop a math model that they think is the most effective at appealing to players, and that's that. A slot with a math profile that is fun or appealing to low rollers likely also appeals to high rollers, and vice versa. So no reason for some kind of devious swapping scheme - the casinos simply have nothing to gain from that.

Why would they want to change to a model that's worse than the best one they have (the most appealing to players), just because you change stakes?

There are a multitude of ways to decrease RTP without it being apparent to the players. One old example I heard was IGT's Cleopatra, shaved down to 92% for land-based in some places by removing the 2x win for 2 scatters, although that's very obvious and for me detracts from the game.

If your average feature was 50x bet, and it was responsible for say 25% of the RTP it would appear every 200 spins - make that 220 spins and you have shaved 2-2.5% off and would the player notice in the short term?

You could simply reduce the frequency of one of the low-range pays, say a 0.5 or 1x stake one.

I'm sure TM could add more precise figures and methodology to the above, but nobody would notice unless they played the games a hell of a lot longer than the average hit-and-run player does.

 

[dunover]

What’s clear is they did not like criticism from myself and internally aswell about returning money back to my account unjustified.

Further whilst your still degrading myself and the original post I’d that it’s becoming more apparent there is a very high chance you are being paid by BTG to degrade people who start forum threads to stop all the talk on how bad the slots are! It’s not as If ive seen a BTG rep pop up in such discussions even when asked for input by other members.

Just because someone has the front to relay experiences and concerns does not make them a problem gambler. In fact someone who what standards all round to be fair.

Furthermore you only degrade posts relating to BTG slots which adds further weight that your just out to quash and nullify such threads from gathering momentum. Sad life and sad person really as you offer no constructive input. Yes I may rant and so don’t we all, however I’ve had good cause to rant and chosen to do it here. I’m no streamer I can’t rant live or on recorded sessions like all affiliates do so I post here. We all have our opinions foil hats or not. Unfortunately yours are becoming a personal attack and that’s sour!

Look, nobody is 'being paid by BTG' - I can't even purloin a free bloody t-shirt from them after all the publicity I gave Bonanza at the beginning!

Even if they look at this load of nonsense I doubt they'd give a stuff anyway, they'll rake money in regardless of the opinions of a few disgruntled players, which knowing their own product of HV games, they expect to see on forums anyway.

No forum rep is wise to get embroiled in this type of bitchfest anyway, it never turns out well as we have seen with a couple recently.

If you start thread after thread moaning about different sessions and games you will attract criticism, and I can't see any on here that's abusive or impolite, more suggestive and practical. There are specific BTG slot threads for most of them if you want to vent your frustration, which isn't a problem but prepare to be thick-skinned when you do. That's all.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

I guess for you young Dunover a %age decrease in bonanza would result in your £200 deposit on £2 a go, only lasting 4hrs instead of 5 and yielding 8 features instead of 9 with you only cashing out £1460 instead of £1500!!!