No enjoyment anymore

[dunover]

I guess for you young Dunover a %age decrease in bonanza would result in your £200 deposit on £2 a go, only lasting 4hrs instead of 5 and yielding 8 features instead of 9 with you only cashing out £1460 instead of £1500!!!

Only if I still get my affiliate RTP.

I guess you didn't see the quick bust after bust I had prior to the last win.

The 7.7k Fr**ky V*g*s win - after that was received it took over 3k of it back without mercy. Then I quit the account and ran. I could sense it was never going to pay.

 

[Playford7]

Look, nobody is 'being paid by BTG' - I can't even purloin a free bloody t-shirt from them after all the publicity I gave Bonanza at the beginning!

Even if they look at this load of nonsense I doubt they'd give a stuff anyway, they'll rake money in regardless of the opinions of a few disgruntled players, which knowing their own product of HV games, they expect to see on forums anyway.

No forum rep is wise to get embroiled in this type of bitchfest anyway, it never turns out well as we have seen with a couple recently.

If you start thread after thread moaning about different sessions and games you will attract criticism, and I can't see any on here that's abusive or impolite, more suggestive and practical. There are specific BTG slot threads for most of them if you want to vent your frustration, which isn't a problem but prepare to be thick-skinned when you do. That's all.

Paid by BTG lol!.. more chance of Jeremy Corbyn liking a Jew haha

 

[Playford7]

Only if I still get my affiliate RTP.

I guess you didn't see the quick bust after bust I had prior to the last win.

The 7.7k Fr**ky V*g*s win - after that was received it took over 3k of it back without mercy. Then I quit the account and ran. I could sense it was never going to pay.

You had a touch getting your cash from freaky, people easily forget the loss videos and just focus on the wins.
Clearly your paid massively by BTG and it’s all fake like Jordan’s face and rack

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Oh I watch all your bonanza videos Dazza! Ur busts always result in an overall winning vid at some point!! Good old affiliate RTP!!

On the subject of a slight difference in RTP the barcrest/SG £500 pure pots/pure gold is a different game entirely on 94% than it is on 92%.

 

[Gaz237]

OMG, Liverpool won, had a few beers to celebrate.

Get home to find I have a new job, BTG rep apparently LOL.

Dogshead, I bet you can't find a single post I have ever made praising/defending BTG.

You seem very blinkered to reality.

On chat to the casino that closed your account. You demanded contact details, not just to the provider, but to the actual developer.

Do you really think that's normal? Do you think the providers are going to talk to you, Do you think the developer, would be allowed to talk to you?

Just in case of doubt, the answer in no to all 3.

Anyway, must go, need to contact BTG and ask where my wages are.

 

[Playford7]

OMG, Liverpool won, had a few beers to celebrate.

Get home to find I have a new job, BTG rep apparently LOL.

Dogshead, I bet you can't find a single post I have ever made praising/defending BTG.

You seem very blinkered to reality.

On chat to the casino that closed your account. You demanded contact details, not just to the provider, but to the actual developer.

Do you really think that's normal? Do you think the providers are going to talk to you, Do you think the developer, would be allowed to talk to you?

Just in case of doubt, the answer in no to all 3.

Anyway, must go, need to contact BTG and ask where my wages are.

You sound like a total dick tbh.

 

[zreb]

There are a multitude of ways to decrease RTP without it being apparent to the players. One old example I heard was IGT's Cleopatra, shaved down to 92% for land-based in some places by removing the 2x win for 2 scatters, although that's very obvious and for me detracts from the game.

If your average feature was 50x bet, and it was responsible for say 25% of the RTP it would appear every 200 spins - make that 220 spins and you have shaved 2-2.5% off and would the player notice in the short term?

You could simply reduce the frequency of one of the low-range pays, say a 0.5 or 1x stake one.

I'm sure TM could add more precise figures and methodology to the above, but nobody would notice unless they played the games a hell of a lot longer than the average hit-and-run player does.

That's completely true, but I'm referring to people that say they change the payment profiles of games without changing RTP - since if they changed RTP, at least on regulated sites, they would have to tell you.

This may not be what reelsoffun was attempting to imply, but some people seem to think the casino has some special way to change the variance profiles of the slots without changing the RTP in a way that allows the casino to quickly take all their money with little chance of winning - which makes no mathematical sense, of course. A variance profile can change big wins to small wins, or remove small wins to make more big wins possible, but it can't just remove both without a change in RTP. There are some slots that are hard to win on, but both giving no playtime AND having very few potential big wins is impossible with a fair RTP.

Aside from games with low win caps (like fobts), my point is that the casino has very little reason to change the variance profiles of the games at different stakes.

 

[Gaz237]

You sound like a total dick tbh.

And your well thought out in-depth retort, is cringe worthy.

 

[zreb]

Trancemonkey has said in another thread (I can't remember which one), where the discussion was about max win caps, that it is quite legal to have different maths profiles for different stakes. So long as the TRTP remains the same.

Exactly, and I can confirm that is correct as I also explained.

No one provided the actual quote, but if the discussion was about win caps - especially if it's relatively low win caps due to regulations (like $500 win caps on $2 spins) - then that creates an actual reason for casinos to use different variance profiles - they would have to in order to keep the same RTP. But that mainly only applies in areas with very particular legal regulations that force this behavior, rarely would it apply to online casinos.

You have answered some of your own questions actually.......

Sorry never worked out how to multi quote

So i will address your points above in order....

1. I dont want or need you to construct a foil hat, its already an accepted part of slot math.

(Citation needed)

2. Depends on the game and provider of course each will have there own style of doing the math, but yes psychology plays a part in this aspect.

You'll need to be more specific, provide me a specific way that changing the variance profiles can benefit a casino. That was my main point.

3. I already said they dont change the RTP and yes that isnt it. Yes its basically a slight to moderate variance shift within the same game.

...Have you never played a game yourself on 2 different stakes and noticed a shift in how it plays?? Really?

Not that I recall, but anecdotal evidence isn't that great of proof for this anyway. People are bad at intuitively grasping probability by feel.

"I mean, if anything they'd want the opposite, they would want lower win potential at the high stakes to lower their maximum possible loss and increase high roller spins and playthrough, while having the low rollers post 10,000x wins on a forum and generate buzz."
THATS EXACTLY WHAT THIS METHOD COULD/WOULD ACHIEVE to some extent.

If you recall, your original complaint was that streamers often play at stakes that are too high for 80% of people, so they can't see what the real potential wins are. I took you to be saying here that the wins streamers receive would be unrealistically large compared to what you would receive at lower stakes. Am I correct that's what you meant?

Because now we're saying the opposite - that you would actually receive larger win multipliers than streamers if casinos did this. So was your original complaint that streamers actually understate your potential wins? Again, I assumed you meant the opposite of that.

If higher stakes were low variance, you would obviously see fewer big 300x, 1000x, etc wins from high stakes streamers than low rollers would receive. As I said, this possibility sounds unlikely to me, and I think a casino would lose more than they gain from this sort of behavior.

"But they don't do that either" who says? you know that for fact do you?

You're right, I don't know for sure that they don't. Just as you have presented zero evidence that they do. That's why I argued they don't really have any incentive to do that - let alone the fact that some people would perceive that as dishonestly misleading if they did.

So yes, as above, they probably do use different variance profiles in games with very low win caps (to keep the same RTP), but not in general.

Hopefully there is some plausible bits in there for you, but what would i know, i have only worked in many different areas of the gaming industry for over 30 years.

But not in slot design, I take it.

Well, we're probably not going to agree, my original claim was just trying to show people you could just divide by your own stake to get a feel for how a streamer's wins would translate to your own stakes and gameplay.

 

[Nicola]

Only if I still get my affiliate RTP.

I guess you didn't see the quick bust after bust I had prior to the last win.

The 7.7k Fr**ky V*g*s win - after that was received it took over 3k of it back without mercy. Then I quit the account and ran. I could sense it was never going to pay.

O/T but just seen your latest video, well done. About time you emptied the bank of Bonanza again

 

[dunover]

Oh I watch all your bonanza videos Dazza! Ur busts always result in an overall winning vid at some point!! Good old affiliate RTP!!

On the subject of a slight difference in RTP the barcrest/SG £500 pure pots/pure gold is a different game entirely on 94% than it is on 92%.

Yes, I agree with one of the previous posts that the profile of games can change noticeably on different RTPs.

My record 200 in Bonanza is 17 minutes until bust, then next worst 23 minutes. If you keep bashing away, you will get a decent hit eventually - it's just whether you're in 'debt' to the game first (as I was in this instance) or your big win comes early which means you can deposit thereafter in the knowledge you'll still be ahead if you bust. Same with all games I suppose.

 

[dunover]

You sound like a total dick tbh.

1.1 - No "Flaming": Please do not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. Abusive behavior will not be tolerated and your account may be suspended. Please refrain from potty mouth language.

This thread seems to be generating more complaints than the 1668/JAZ licence.

Some good constructive discussion in here, yet there is an undercurrent of antagonism and bitchiness from a few people who should know better. It stops now, else I can see it being closed before people start getting infractions or suspensions.

Thank you.

 

[nutnut]

1.1 - No "Flaming": Please do not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. Abusive behavior will not be tolerated and your account may be suspended. Please refrain from potty mouth language.

This thread seems to be generating more complaints than the 1668/JAZ licence.

Some good constructive discussion in here, yet there is an undercurrent of antagonism and bitchiness from a few people who should know better. It stops now, else I can see it being closed before people start getting infractions or suspensions.

Thank you.

But that is exactly what Gaz is doing.

Harass - check
Insult - check
belittle - double check

Is it it because he don't put fuck, shit wanker in his posts it somehow passes the flaming part? BTW I do not wish to see him banned or asking for it, just some consistency would be nice. You can't expect people not to react to him when he is belittling people and mocking their posts/opinions.

 

[wokingjames5]

I know hyper from a long while back, always liked the guy.
I don’t actually watch any now except daz.
As for the tax thing, I’ve no idea, I go to work pay my 40% and that’s that.
sure many of the streamers have loopholes, and tbh I’d do the same if I was in there position.
many bankers and mega rich rip us off a hell of a lot more.
Nicks a good man tbh, spoke with him many times, I don’t agree with how they do it and I’ve said this many times but I’d hate to see banning or censorship as it’s going silly with the pc nanny state in the uk as it is.
Oh and to answer another thing you ask, I also watch ‘slot excitement channel’ guys as down to earth and as near to a real gambler as you can get.

Hypa just posted his gambling log for 2018,£32K down from mainly streaming trying to emulate rock n rolla etc but not having the constant casino bonuses they enjoy. Anyway I'd take a long play session at Reel fruits arcade over a casino stream any day His pub fruit video's rarely disappoint.

 

[The Dude]

Admin note: Ok - most of you guys should know better than to accuse one another of gambling probs, etc. Something like that should be done in a PM - this is a gambling forum, and many players have demons - some little - some big, and accusatory statements - even though one might think are helpful, will only inflame the matter.

If you think a member might need help, a bit of discretion is advised.

Also, I have not read all 5 pages, and I eschew the thought of having to go back and start dinging people for infractions - it's becoming tit for tat. I have enough to do at the moment, so please from this point forward - please mellow out a bit and stop flaming or posting passive aggressive posts. Thank you.

 

[Playford7]

1.1 - No "Flaming": Please do not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. Abusive behavior will not be tolerated and your account may be suspended. Please refrain from potty mouth language.

This thread seems to be generating more complaints than the 1668/JAZ licence.

Some good constructive discussion in here, yet there is an undercurrent of antagonism and bitchiness from a few people who should know better. It stops now, else I can see it being closed before people start getting infractions or suspensions.

Thank you.

Apologies.
Was a little frank with that post.

 

[Playford7]

Hypa just posted his gambling log for 2018,£32K down from mainly streaming trying to emulate rock n rolla etc but not having the constant casino bonuses they enjoy. Anyway I'd take a long play session at Reel fruits arcade over a casino stream any day His pub fruit video's rarely disappoint.

Tbh to be spending that amount I’m pretty sure it’s affordable to him, granted it’s vulgar to some.
Then again it’s only relevant to what you earn, I’ve no idea the guys earnings, but to be spending that yearly then you got a decent income/bank balance.
His old school fruit vids I loved before betcom and the mind numbing force videos.

 

[Reelsoffun]

No one provided the actual quote, but if the discussion was about win caps - especially if it's relatively low win caps due to regulations (like $500 win caps on $2 spins) - then that creates an actual reason for casinos to use different variance profiles - they would have to in order to keep the same RTP. But that mainly only applies in areas with very particular legal regulations that force this behavior, rarely would it apply to online casinos.



(Citation needed)



You'll need to be more specific, provide me a specific way that changing the variance profiles can benefit a casino. That was my main point.



Not that I recall, but anecdotal evidence isn't that great of proof for this anyway. People are bad at intuitively grasping probability by feel.



If you recall, your original complaint was that streamers often play at stakes that are too high for 80% of people, so they can't see what the real potential wins are. I took you to be saying here that the wins streamers receive would be unrealistically large compared to what you would receive at lower stakes. Am I correct that's what you meant?

Because now we're saying the opposite - that you would actually receive larger win multipliers than streamers if casinos did this. So was your original complaint that streamers actually understate your potential wins? Again, I assumed you meant the opposite of that.

If higher stakes were low variance, you would obviously see fewer big 300x, 1000x, etc wins from high stakes streamers than low rollers would receive. As I said, this possibility sounds unlikely to me, and I think a casino would lose more than they gain from this sort of behavior.



You're right, I don't know for sure that they don't. Just as you have presented zero evidence that they do. That's why I argued they don't really have any incentive to do that - let alone the fact that some people would perceive that as dishonestly misleading if they did.

So yes, as above, they probably do use different variance profiles in games with very low win caps (to keep the same RTP), but not in general.



But not in slot design, I take it.

Well, we're probably not going to agree, my original claim was just trying to show people you could just divide by your own stake to get a feel for how a streamer's wins would translate to your own stakes and gameplay.

An example of a game where you can just do that is "Jammin Jars" due to how it works internally.

Yes I have worked in slot design, which is why i cannot give you evidence of diff stakes can have diff profile but its totally allowed if the RTP remains the same or is displayed as a range, the casino has no say in that part, they choose the RTP version they want to run. It benefits the provider on the whole as a game can technically cater for multiple players on same game using diff stakes, and in turn benefits the casino with a more popular slot creating a higher VTP.

Im not saying higher stakes are low / lower variance im just saying that the wins can be differently distributed in way they could be slightly lower but not enough to stop big wins still happening occasionally.

Like i said it depends on the game, about the streamers stakes, yes it can skew both ways as you say, just nice to see exactly what was won from each actual stake.

A typical stake / profile change could be something like

These figures are just an example and in are not based on any particular slot.

Game "X" 96.02%
31.02% from Feature
65% from Base

Profile A say 20p - £2
31.02% from Feature
65% from Base

Profile B say >£2 <=£4
24.02% from Feature
72% from Base

Profile C say >£4
18.02% from Feature
78% from Base

Feature Aves,hits and wins can be adjusted to fit the % shift for each with higher / lower hit rates, higher / lower ave features, and higher or lower wins feature volatility etc ( multiple ways to do it, so many ways! )

Sometimes it isnt possible to get each profile exactly the same, but normally near enough or you can cover that with RTP = 96.02 - 96.14%

Due to most people rarely playing the same slot on the same stake forever any feature ave hit rate change would be spread across the plays and would be unnoticeable to most players due to the sheer amount of possible outcomes.

Its one reason they dont often give out feature average hit data to players, as truth be known it can actually vary from stake to stake, but of course there is always a ball park figure overall, and even with stake hopping its gonna stay reasonably close to expected over large samples.


Anyway Im happy to agree to not agree its all good friendly chat.

 

[Reelsoffun]

my point is that the casino has very little reason to change the variance profiles of the games at different stakes.

They cant even if they wanted to, its all in the providers software, same as they cant just change RTP while your playing etc.

So there is only 3 possible scenarios at play here as far as your concerned.

The providers are doing a great job of hiding this method if you cant notice any games that do it.
Or
No games you play regularly use this method
Or
NO provider in the world uses this method and I am wrong.

However im sure there will be seasoned players that have noticed it on games, and I know 100% it isnt the last option.


Its not like they are doing anything wrong they are just trying to provide players with the best entertainment possible for the game.

 

[Tirilej]

They cant even if they wanted to, its all in the providers software, same as they cant just change RTP while your playing etc.

So there is only 3 possible scenarios at play here as far as your concerned.

The providers are doing a great job of hiding this method if you cant notice any games that do it.
Or
No games you play regularly use this method
Or
NO provider in the world uses this method and I am wrong.

However im sure there will be seasoned players that have noticed it on games, and I know 100% it isnt the last option.


Its not like they are doing anything wrong they are just trying to provide players with the best entertainment possible for the game.

Honestly I wish I hadn't read the last two posts in this thread.
It explains a lot of what many have experienced but also will create even more people questioning every single game at every stake having their own thoughts.
We'll see I guess

 

[robby811]

Honestly I wish I hadn't read the last two posts in this thread.
It explains a lot of what many have experienced but also will create even more people questioning every single game at every stake having their own thoughts.
We'll see I guess

I didnt read them, because i read yours first

 

[lockinlove]

Some good constructive discussion in here

NotSureIfSerious

 

[Reelsoffun]

Honestly I wish I hadn't read the last two posts in this thread.
It explains a lot of what many have experienced but also will create even more people questioning every single game at every stake having their own thoughts.
We'll see I guess

As im guessing that was aimed at my last 2 posts? Sorry

 

[zreb]

They cant even if they wanted to, its all in the providers software, same as they cant just change RTP while your playing etc.

So there is only 3 possible scenarios at play here as far as your concerned.

The providers are doing a great job of hiding this method if you cant notice any games that do it.
Or
No games you play regularly use this method
Or
NO provider in the world uses this method and I am wrong.

However im sure there will be seasoned players that have noticed it on games, and I know 100% it isnt the last option.


Its not like they are doing anything wrong they are just trying to provide players with the best entertainment possible for the game.

If they are doing it, you could definitely make a strong argument that it's not necessarily wrong or immoral. Yet, I think many people would be very unhappy with that if they knew about it. Many already believe that the slots are designed in a way to make it as hard as possible to win, and knowing that the gameplay could change once a player moves up or down in stakes would add fire to the flames. Especially since gambling can be a very emotional experience for people and they often search for the "why" of what caused them to lose, even though the answer is usually simply that luck wasn't on their side today, or they're making bigger bets than they should be and underestimating the variance or the house edge.

While I'm still skeptical that this type of design is common in online casinos as the risks don't seem worth what looks like a very small reward - players could be unhappy if they found out and future regulations may disallow this behavior. And I wouldn't think the psychology of a low roller is THAT different than a high roller to make it a profitable difference, mainly the amount of money available. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few slot providers out there are doing it, but I've never seen any evidence of the big online providers doing that myself. (Someone who plays a slot often could notice if the reel layouts are different for example, though there's no guarantee anyone would notice.)

But I'm happy to agree to disagree. Thanks for your posts.

 

[Reelsoffun]

If they are doing it, you could definitely make a strong argument that it's not necessarily wrong or immoral. Yet, I think many people would be very unhappy with that if they knew about it. Many already believe that the slots are designed in a way to make it as hard as possible to win, and knowing that the gameplay could change once a player moves up or down in stakes would add fire to the flames. Especially since gambling can be a very emotional experience for people and they often search for the "why" of what caused them to lose, even though the answer is usually simply that luck wasn't on their side today, or they're making bigger bets than they should be and underestimating the variance or the house edge.

While I'm still skeptical that this type of design is common in online casinos as the risks don't seem worth what looks like a very small reward - players could be unhappy if they found out and future regulations may disallow this behavior. And I wouldn't think the psychology of a low roller is THAT different than a high roller to make it a profitable difference, mainly the amount of money available. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few slot providers out there are doing it, but I've never seen any evidence of the big online providers doing that myself. (Someone who plays a slot often could notice if the reel layouts are different for example, though there's no guarantee anyone would notice.)

But I'm happy to agree to disagree. Thanks for your posts.

Well the different profiles within the same game is not something new its been around since early on.

Im not sure what risks your referring to and your statement is a bit contradictory on one hand you say "I think many people would be very unhappy with that if they knew about it" ( which more than you think probably already know or have suspected for a long time ) and on the other you say "as the risks don't seem worth what looks like a very small reward", if its such a small reward and dont really affect the player significantly then why would they be upset?

The fact someone has already said "It explains a lot of what many have experienced" might suggest that more people have noticed it before but never actually thought any more of it.

To me this method is no different to having say different reel strips for base games and free spins, some disclose this in the rules to the player some don't even when some games its blatantly obvious.
Its also no different to some games having 2 or more reel sets for the base game that are randomly selected each time with one set providing lots of 2 scatter near miss for example.
And no different to pick mes that have no impact on what the player gets, because it was pre determined, some are genuine some are not? but can you always tell?

You cant just focus on this one slot math method being a bit out of order when there is countless other ways players never get to know about.


"(Someone who plays a slot often could notice if the reel layouts are different for example, though there's no guarantee anyone would notice.)"
No they wouldnt as you only see the strips the designer wants you to see at spin effect time. Its called virtual reels. Example i might have KAAJTC on the virtual strip but the animated strip might only show KAJTC eg to player looks like one Ace but there is 2 doubling the chance, crude example but that sort of thing.

Slots are here to make money, the player is always going to lose long term, there is always creative ways to manipulate random game design in much the same way a player is always looking for a edge to manipulate the game.


I have no idea if its true or not but I was once told that the reason the stake profile change was used was to "protect" against advantage play, as although games are random, the probabilities should remain constant and in theory if a player knew the feature hit rate they could keep raising stake after so many games, so that when they hit the feature they will have been at a much higher stake than chasing on min.

So if the feature hit rate changes as stake goes up it could stop this potential advantage play in its tracks.

Of course its random and could still be risky for the player to do this without adding that, in the same way the martingale system on roulette isnt a sure thing, but I guess it could be a valid reason why it was / is used on some games.


A simpler example is if we played a game of throwing a die at 50p a throw if its 1-5 i keep your 50p if its a 6 i will give you 5.76x your stake. ( yes my game has a RTP of 96% coincidentally )

If a 6 has not shown after 10 plays you telling me you wouldnt want to increase your bets until it comes? even tho its random and is no more likely to come next throw?

Keep upping bet till comes and if you advantage played correctly you would be in profit, you would be technically taking advantage of the fact its random and static probabilities are in play??