new casino concept, comments welcome

[AndrewSpruit]

[Moderator's note: Original thread title was "Imagine a casino that guarantees it clients the never lose - Is it possible? Yes". See post #88 for details on the change.]

Its coming! A totally new way of gambling that will change how people gamble online. This is a casino that is designed to better gamblers lives. You can never lose!

 

[Jasminebed]

Oh Andrew, you are funny! It was nice meeting you.

 

[dionysus]

thanks for the shill...er..info

anyway, no, such a casino won't exist. I certainly wouldnt trust one that claimed to

 

[AndrewSpruit]

It would seem unlikely.............

I understand why most people would be apprehensive but it is a really basic concept and considering that the gaming industry generates $44 billion revenue a year, not that unrealistic to think that someone came up with an idea to rather channel those funds into better returns to rather improve the lives of gamblers. It is accredited by one of the best known international financial companies. No catch, no ponzi or multi-level marketing. Just simple math that is based on making less of more.

 

[dionysus]

your tag-line is ' Imagine a casino that guarantees it clients the never lose - Is it possible? Yes'

unless the casino has morons behind the head table, drool and giggle often, or like going bankrupt, no, a casino can't/won't guarantee clients won't lose

 

[blonde]

I understand why most people would be apprehensive but it is a really basic concept and considering that the gaming industry generates $44 billion revenue a year, not that unrealistic to think that someone came up with an idea to rather channel those funds into better returns to rather improve the lives of gamblers. It is accredited by one of the best known international financial companies. No catch, no ponzi or multi-level marketing. Just simple math that is based on making less of more.

 

[AndrewSpruit]

your tag-line is ' Imagine a casino that guarantees it clients the never lose - Is it possible? Yes'

unless the casino has morons behind the head table, drool and giggle often, or like going bankrupt, no, a casino can't/won't guarantee clients won't lose

unless of course the casino is content to make 12% profit from $100 000 000 instead of 90% of $10 000 000

 

[dionysus]

unless of course the casino is content to make 12% profit from $100 000 000 instead of 90% of $10 000 000

then you aren't guaranteeing players win at all - you're offering that they lose less

 

[rockycatt]

ok tell us the name

 

[AndrewSpruit]

The casino will launch end February 2014. Keeping it mum until it launches. It will revolutionise online gaming and will not make sense for anyone to gamble anywhere else. It will be copied very quickly. It is basically designed because of my life experience in casinos. I gambled for 15 years and lost around $100 000 per year. If I had used those funds differently I would have a very sweet bank balance today. Problem is I, like most gamblers love gambling. So I came up with a concept that gives gamblers the opportunity to have the best of both worlds. Almost like a cigarette that cures cancer. I will keep you posted as we get closer to going live.

 

[dionysus]

I quiver with anticipation

So basically what you're doing is offering a higher RTP and taking a smaller house-edge. It's not really revolutionary.

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Nope.... the revolution is what we do with the losses. The RTP is based on the same average as most online casino's. It is difficult to explain completely without exposing the entire concept which I am very nervous will taken, but I think it is pretty obvious.

 

[dionysus]

I think what is obvious, is that you've gone about this completely the wrong way. You've posted in the feedback section, and instead of saying ' hey, guys, we're launching a new casino next month, here's what we're doing, what do you think?' you've come across as a bad used-car sales pitch. What the big reveal is, I've really no clue. But I can't fathom what you're afraid of sharing - noone's going to run out and whip up a site in a month using your 'concept' - at least not that noone here is going to flock to or take seriously

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Thanks. Not used this forum before and not sure how the format works. I honestly was just looking to see what feedback I would receive from my fellow gamblers and this site seemed the obvious place to discuss something like this, that would hold common ground. I expect to get negative responses because most people think there is a catch. Strange mind set though because if you lose money in any other casino it is gone forever and my concept is designed to give those losses back to our clients plus.

 

[dionysus]

What's strange? You've told us diddly squat except the promise of snake-skin oils and miracle cures - you've given nothing to give feedback ON

 

[AndrewSpruit]

All losses are put into and accredited by an international Investment Company. We earn our profit from the majority of the interest earned on those investments for the first 12 months. Once the investment matures the client has the option to leave the investment and then they will earn the majority of the interest (meaning they actually start making money from their losses) or they have the option to have their losses paid back to them. My entire concept is based on how does one convince a gambler to rather invest or save their money for a better future instead of losing it in casinos. We gamblers want to gamble, so I have put a casino in the middle to channel the losses into an Investment Company.

You cannot lose you money. Fair enough you will have to wait for the investment to mature but its better than the money being gone forever.

Thats the concept.

 

[Cleveland]

I for one believe him.

 

[dionysus]

That sounds like an awful lot of 'what ifs'

What if the bank forecloses, my country suddenly becomes excluded...you shut your doors and head to Tahiti on the interest

 

[DepositSpinLose]

ummmm

so what do I earn on my lost $50 deposit? oh and if all of our lost money is going into investments, how are you going to pay actual winners or where is your operating money coming from? sounds like wishful thinking to me.

 

[dionysus]

I for one believe him.

I never said I didn't believe him (or at least his intentions), he may well have an interesting idea - up until his last post, he never wrote anything in which to believe.
The whole point of questioning him, well, it took pulling those teeth to see what he was getting at - just get to the sales pitch without the preamble

 

[dionysus]

so what do I earn on my lost $50 deposit? oh and if all of our lost money is going into investments, how are you going to pay actual winners or where is your operating money coming from? sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Ya, same thought. If funds are locked up for 12 months, how do you pay substantial wins in a timely fashion?

 

[AndrewSpruit]

All funds go directly to the Investment Company. All investments are accredited by them and client will be able to follow the status of the investment through them. The investment risks will be the exact same as if you had paid money into the investment directly through a broker. This is money that would be lost and in the pockets of the casino owners. My idea is to change this and make gambling into a life building fun way of investing money whilst still being able to play. So if you lost the money in a normal casino and they dissapeared to Tahiti it would really not make any difference. Our biggest hurdle will be that for the first 12 months we will be a casino with a promise. This is why it has been so important for us to get an Investment firm to accredit the concept and back us. Once we pay back the first invested loss to a client, we will have proved ourselves and this will be the only logical way for a gambler to play.

 

[dionysus]

wait, are you saying win OR lose, funds go into an investment broker of your choice?

why does this suddenly read like I've won the South African lottery

 

[KasinoKing]

C'mon guys, don't be so hard on the fella - at least he was very honest in his second post:

No catch, no ponzi or multi-level marketing. Just simple math that is based on making less of more.

KK

 

[AndrewSpruit]

I have been working on the concept for over a year. It is simple in concept but obviously the liquid functioning of the casino has had to be carefully planned and worked out. We will not be openning the casino hoping to earn funds before we have enough to pay out winnings. I am sure that as gamblers you know exacxtly what the true RTP percentages over a play sessions are. This is not designed to make us wealthy overnight, instead it is designed to build a company that is profitable, but also has the well being of our clients as its core.

 

[dionysus]

All funds go directly to the Investment Company. All investments are accredited by them and client will be able to follow the status of the investment through them. The investment risks will be the exact same as if you had paid money into the investment directly through a broker. This is money that would be lost and in the pockets of the casino owners. My idea is to change this and make gambling into a life building fun way of investing money whilst still being able to play. So if you lost the money in a normal casino and they dissapeared to Tahiti it would really not make any difference. Our biggest hurdle will be that for the first 12 months we will be a casino with a promise. This is why it has been so important for us to get an Investment firm to accredit the concept and back us. Once we pay back the first invested loss to a client, we will have proved ourselves and this will be the only logical way for a gambler to play.

Has it occurred to you that some people WIN at the casinos. You may have dropped 100K, but some of us are nowhere near that

 

[dionysus]

I have been working on the concept for over a year. It is simple in concept but obviously the liquid functioning of the casino has had to be carefully planned and worked out. We will not be openning the casino hoping to earn funds before we have enough to pay out winnings. I am sure that as gamblers you know exacxtly what the true RTP percentages over a play sessions are. This is not designed to make us wealthy overnight, instead it is designed to build a company that is profitable, but also has the well being of our clients as its core.

Ok, so if day one, players win, you DO intend on paying them ie like, overnight, not sticking the wins in a fund?

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Three outcomes from a deposit: $100 (90% of deposit is put onto a pending investment status.)

1. 1. You lose and reach a zero balance - Pending investment automatically released to investment
2. You lose a portion of your money ($50) - Pending investment balance released to investment. The balance is withdrawable
3. You win - Pending investment is cancelled and 90% of original deposit plus winnings is withdrawable

We can only guarantee you do not lose your money. We cannot double your winnings. Only money lost will be invested.

If you lose $100 - 90% of this will be invested - 10% goes to our running cost. The investment has a minimum 12 month maturity by which time the amount will be very close to the original deposit or more depending on the markets. Should the client leave the investment for longer than a year then the original funds will start earning money.

 

[dionysus]

Three outcomes from a deposit: $100 (90% of deposit is put onto a pending investment status.)

1. 1. You lose and reach a zero balance - Pending investment automatically released to investment
2. You lose a portion of your money ($50) - Pending investment balance released to investment. The balance is withdrawable
3. You win - Pending investment is cancelled and 90% of original deposit plus winnings is withdrawable

We can only guarantee you do not lose your money. We cannot double your winnings. Only money lost will be invested.

If you lose $100 - 90% of this will be invested - 10% goes to our running cost. The investment has a minimum 12 month maturity by which time the amount will be very close to the original deposit or more depending on the markets. Should the client leave the investment for longer than a year then the original funds will start earning money.

if i win, youre taking 10% off the top??? Your games won't be 100% RTP I assume, so you're already getting your cut

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Has it occurred to you that some people WIN at the casinos. You may have dropped 100K, but some of us are nowhere near that

Sorry I see were I may have worded this as confusing. I was trying to say all funds that are to be invested are done directly by the investment company. Not all funds. Wins are wins.

We have set it up that there is no risk of us fleeing with the money. Even if the casino had to close down, all the investment are registered in a portfolio in the clients name by the Investment company.

 

[dionysus]

Ok, so...

I dep, I win, you pay me in a timely fashion, minus 10%
I dep, I lose, you put 90% in an 'investment' which might make $ in 12 months

is that right?

 

[randomiam]

lets talk software

so what providers do you have lined up any main ones like microgaming net ent rtg playtech ect? also what if the invested money is lost broker goes under ect do you have the insurance to keep your promises and what about a 6 month type plan 12 months is a long time when it comes to tieing up funds and are you going to have instant payment or ones under 4 hours or does getting your winnings if you win going to take 12 days are you accepting all countries will you be posting all the rtp for every game will you have live support phone support 24 hours 7 days will you have many deposit and withdrawal methods like skrill netella ecopayz.. for something 2 months away i hope you have 95% on the go at launch sorry to ask so many questions but for a casino to make it let alone one with promises like yours these type of things have to be asked cheers RANDOMIAM

 

[AndrewSpruit]

If I deposit in other casinos and they add a bonus or a chip. Most have up to 30x playthroughs on the deposited amount and the bonus? They then also deduct the bonus amount at time of withdrawing?

This is the real scam and catch that gamblers should be aware of. I am being honest and upfront with my clients. Nothing is hidden. If you register with our casino you will need to have everything in place to receive money back before you even start playing. Not like other casinos that only request that from you when you try withdraw and they then drag their feet for day approving everything.

If you deposit $100 in our casino you will get in value - $90 pending investment - $10 insurance - $100Playing balance - Total value $200. This will have a 1x playthrough and then it will become withdrawable.

Everything in our casino is aimed at making the Gambler benefit in the long run. If the gambler plays often by the time they get to the end of the year, they will have a huge investment portfolio which will benefit them. They will get to a point that they could recycle the funds and never have to use any other money to gamble again.

I am saying that you are buying an insurance of 10%. You still get the 10% to play with and all winnings made from it are withdrawable.

Imagine I could go to my landbased casino with $5000 and there was an insurance company that I could buy 10% insurance from, that guaranteed if I lost my $4500 balance gambling they would then give me the $4500 back, it would be worth the 10% insurance purchase.

The total payout of winnings to players worldwide from online casinos is around 7.5% of total income (which is $44 billion). The rest is all profit for the casinos. I know your next message will say that casino's payout 95% and only hold 5% but this is a smoke screen. eg. I give you $100 you give me back $95, I give you $95 you give me back $94 and so on until I hit zero. On paper the casino is only holding 5% but you find me gamblers that play one hand and then leave the casino which is the only way this formula works in the gamblers benefit. The truth is that gamblers lose 90% of the time that they play.

Imagine leaving a casino after a game session were you lost all your money. Instead of feeling glum and depressed you will now be able to walk away with the thought you have actually just invested some money.

 

[swampwitch]

I've perused your Facebook and your company website, and I'm not exactly filled with confidence. First, I'm not sure a self-confessed gambling addict who has called for the banning of all casino advertisements should be running a casino. Second, your business model is just shady looking. It actually looks worse than that but I'm being extremely polite for the new year. For now.
I won't post a link to your website, but my fellow CM members can find it through your Facebook.

 

[Igor82]

unless of course the casino is content to make 12% profit from $100 000 000 instead of 90% of $10 000 000

No casino makes 90% of anything. Erm, actually no business in existence, ever makes 90% of anything. If i went around stealing stuff id probably have to sell them for less than 50% of their actual worth.

As for 12% gross profit, you're also laughing lol well, i am.

It's not hard to research casino hold margins online, so those blatantly wild statements wont fly for long.

Thanks for the laugh though.

 

[AndrewSpruit]

I've perused your Facebook and your company website, and I'm not exactly filled with confidence. First, I'm not sure a self-confessed gambling addict who has called for the banning of all casino advertisements should be running a casino. Second, your business model is just shady looking. It actually looks worse than that but I'm being extremely polite for the new year. For now.
I won't post a link to your website, but my fellow CM members can find it through your Facebook.

Thank you for your input. Not sure when I called for banning of advertising but the gambling addict part you have correct. I have not posted my business model. If i was not a gambling addict I would never have been inspired to try create a format that helps gamblers rather invest their money. If I went to a casino and told people my sob story about how much I lost over the years, this would not convince them to stop gambling and put the money into a bank. However, let the gambler still play and invest the losses for the so it improves their lives. Cant see whats shady about that.

 

[dionysus]

Meh, I will - it's online free for the looking, and he IS here selling his wares: google gamevesta
personally, I'd rather be responsible for my own investments without someone else's fingers in it

 

[aceking123]

ho ho ho x mas come early & a happy new year to all the cm members whome are going to be signing up for the new state of the art casino

 

[dionysus]

Thank you for your input. Not sure when I called for banning of advertising but the gambling addict part you have correct. I have not posted my business model. If i was not a gambling addict I would never have been inspired to try create a format that helps gamblers rather invest their money. If I went to a casino and told people my sob story about how much I lost over the years, this would not convince them to stop gambling and put the money into a bank. However, let the gambler still play and invest the losses for the so it improves their lives. Cant see whats shady about that.

Well, yes - you're a self-confessed addict, with a model that actually encourages people to gamble more by saying it's ok, because we might get you funds back

 

[AndrewSpruit]

My concept is just basically designed to allow Gamblers to still be able to play in a casino but to try make something that can have a negative impact on their lives into something constructive.

It is just that simple.

 

[dionysus]

Ok, scary fact aside that you've come in saying you have/had a gambling problem yet I should trust you with my money, if your concern is about the negative impact on gambling in people's lives, and not having someone else foot the bill to line your portfolio, why not run a a gambling awareness site or campaign, and not a method where you sell gambling as rewarding, which seems completely contrary to what you just wrote?

 

[mrmark21]

Come on ease up on the fella... Happy new year and all!!

I do have to say though that coming to this forum pushing your casino as a revolutionary state of the art casino dah dah dah wasn't the brightest move though as you can see by the responses you have gotten on this thread. Had you genuinely been interested in getting feedback rather than posting this: "Its coming! A totally new way of gambling that will change how people gamble online. This is a casino that is designed to better gamblers lives. You can never lose!" You probably would have gotten a much better reception but this forum doesn't much appreciate shilling.

I wish you the best of luck with your venture and recovering from your gambling issues.

 

[Igor82]

All losses are put into and accredited by an international Investment Company. We earn our profit from the majority of the interest earned on those investments for the first 12 months. Once the investment matures the client has the option to leave the investment and then they will earn the majority of the interest (meaning they actually start making money from their losses) or they have the option to have their losses paid back to them. My entire concept is based on how does one convince a gambler to rather invest or save their money for a better future instead of losing it in casinos. We gamblers want to gamble, so I have put a casino in the middle to channel the losses into an Investment Company.

You cannot lose you money. Fair enough you will have to wait for the investment to mature but its better than the money being gone forever.

Thats the concept.

After reading the first numbers of assumed profit margins (90% / 12%) i just closed the thread. Notifications made me read a bit more and i caught above:

here's simple maths:

all the winners on a casino - (minus) all the losers on a casino will give you approximately 3-4% gross profit on all of their accumulated bets, translating to anywhere between 25-40% of all accumulated deposits. Assuming a fair business model.

that 25-40% of deposits are your "losses" which also pay for everything to do with your business, including 10-20% on game providers (depending on which), 2-10% on payment methods (again, depending on which), staff, salaries, marketing etc etc etc

This already leaves you with a small but reasonable net profit from all of the deposited funds at your casino, inclusive of the ones that came from winning players.

Your business model assumes that all your "earned" losses are given into an investment fund, meaning that you have no access to them, so here are my questions:

1. What pays your winners? (EDIT: + salaries, game providers, and all other costs needed to keep you operational) As in, what manages your cash flow if all your earnings are locked for a year? You have to have an immense, and i do mean immense, backing to completely eradicate the need to churn the money.

2. Taking the massive white elephant "IF" of number 1 aside, here is the next pickle: If your investment fund yields anything, then the guaranteed investments wont surpass more than 3-4% annual yield. Anything more than that and you are moving into the realm of non-guaranteed investments - meaning you can easily LOSE money. To reach 12%+ yield, you have to be investing into highly volatile, high-risk markets which begs the same question as number 1, extended. Where are you paying your winners from in year 1, and how are you mitigating the risk on lost investments in year 2+?

the maths are not adding up.

As my Financial Director would say to me on many of my "next big thing" propositions: "Igor, i can drive a truck through this. Do it again".

Good luck

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Well, yes - you're a self-confessed addict, with a model that actually encourages people to gamble more by saying it's ok, because we might get you funds back

You will get your funds back. Gamblers are going to gamble thats the truth. Haven't come past to many casino's lately not marketing to encourage gamblers to gamble more. I just dont have the same motives.
Unless a gambler is willing to admit they have a problem, they are are endless flow of funds into casinos. If it were not for gambling addiction and compulsion casinos would lose half there clients. Not sure if having a little tag stating the support of responsible gambling really fixes the issue.

Also not quite sure what my gambling addiction has to do with this anyhow. If I was not a gambling addict would it make the idea a better one?

 

[vinylweatherman]

There is no guarantee, it's simply a different type of gambling, the kind Lehman Brothers (along with many others) got heavily involved in a few years ago, what happened to them I wonder

Running costs are an unavoidable expense, and can also be a problem with many investment products - broker takes 5% at the start, fund management company can take a couple of percent a year, leaving the balance to make almost 10% per year just to break even (remember, inflation also plays a part). Investments that can boast a 10% target tend to fall into the "high risk" category, and the original capital may be at risk, let alone there being no investment returns.

 

[dionysus]

lol, well yes, you're the one here selling that I should trust you with my $ into investments and use you to play when I gamble. I didn't scout your services, you came here to sell them. As such, of course we're going to question or call you on it. And to be fair, noone went digging into your life for your gambling history, you freely posted it.

You're asking players to invest in YOU...your name, your brand, your concept, with OUR money.
So, ya, when you propose a plan of investing it, where, how much, to whom, what rates...
Play at your casino - ok, can you fund my wins, what games do you use, are they licensed, who do you answer to

 

[DepositSpinLose]

he should of come here offering shares of the casino. i'll deposit

 

[mrmark21]

You will get your funds back. Gamblers are going to gamble thats the truth. Haven't come past to many casino's lately not marketing to encourage gamblers to gamble more. I just dont have the same motives.
Unless a gambler is willing to admit they have a problem, they are are endless flow of funds into casinos. If it were not for gambling addiction and compulsion casinos would lose half there clients. Not sure if having a little tag stating the support of responsible gambling really fixes the issue.

Also not quite sure what my gambling addiction has to do with this anyhow. If I was not a gambling addict would it make the idea a better one?

Now that's not necessarily true depends on the gamblers reason for gambling. I've closed my accounts at nearly all casinos save some Playtech's and one multi-platform. I don't have a problem but I'm not going to continue depositing while consistently losing. So I certainly don't have a problem. There are many reputable casinos that take responsible gambling seriously and have set in place tools that gamblers can use to limit their spending. I know Bet@ has a self exclusion tool that gamblers can access without having to even contact support. Different people have different reasons for gambling so I don't think it's necessarily fair to label them all as having compulsions or addictions. Also at the same time casinos should have every right to promote their businesses.

No but IMO it's certainly a cause for concern with your stability. Therefore it could very well be a risky proposition for any player.

 

[Nifty29]

Honestly, I cannot believe we are giving this guy's snake oil pitch the time of day.

Igor puts it very nicely. Quite apart from the obvious flaws in the OP's assessment of how things work, we are being asked to trust some guy, who is a compulsive gambler, to hang on to "our" money for minimum 12 months and pay it back to us whenever we want? Yeah right.

If you're going to market an OC on the basis that you will never lose, then you absolutely HAVE to be able to guarantee that you can get the 12% annual return on your investments....which you CANNOT.

My opinion? Total BS.

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Come on ease up on the fella... Happy new year and all!!

I do have to say though that coming to this forum pushing your casino as a revolutionary state of the art casino dah dah dah wasn't the brightest move though as you can see by the responses you have gotten on this thread. Had you genuinely been interested in getting feedback rather than posting this: "Its coming! A totally new way of gambling that will change how people gamble online. This is a casino that is designed to better gamblers lives. You can never lose!" You probably would have gotten a much better reception but this forum doesn't much appreciate shilling.

I wish you the best of luck with your venture and recovering from your gambling issues.

Thanks. What is shilling? Obviously I stepped on toes. I am not trying to sell the idea to anyone. I honestly believe in my idea and if it works it will sell itself. Just thought gamblers on a gambling forum would appreciate a new angle and understand what I am trying to do. This has been constructive because its good to see how other gamblers react to the idea.