Hmm...
Microgaming implement max bet limit when playing with a bonus(!!)
- Thread starter catapultaudio
- Start date
Hmm...
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
The system awards $2 for every $60 wagered however i can set you up with bonuses that awards $10 for every $300 or $20 for every $600 etc etc
Actually, we can do any combination, the player can choose how they want to receive the cashback whether it be in $2 increments or even in $100 increments. We have this working with a number of players and we guarantee it with some players i.e. if a player has a run of bad luck and does not earn the cashback, we will simply add it manually. They can continue to play with it or they can cash it out.
Unfortunately we cannot let it all accumulate in the account for later use, because we carry over unearned cashback for every deposit, there are some tech issues with this we still have not been able to solve. The above solution almost solves this by changing when the cashback is released and how much is released in each increment.
If ANY players want a custom cashback bonus at Wintingo, please PM me your account details and i will set it up for you
I re-read the post, sorry for that, was not my intention, i was generalizing.
Out of interest, what's the tech difference between crediting the $2 into a seperate "account" rather than the normal playing account? Doesn't appear to be that hard, but then I'm not a programmer.
I'm just not a fan of the "drip feed". It just doesn't really help me to win, which is kinda what you suggest other casinos do. If your system DOES help me win, them I'm happy for you to explain it to me.
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- Jun 20, 2001
Double hmmm.
Requested by whom? Sounds like censorship to me, which is very anti-CM.
What's the go Matt?
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- Apr 18, 2009
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- Sweden
I'm the one to blame. I didn't think it was appropriate to tell us all how high Igor was betting and told him that.
He could only change his own post but had to ask Matt to remove the quote.
We are all humans and even the reps need a chance to correct their mistakes. At least that's how I see it
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2011
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- Tingo Land
We have a one wallet solution and therefore there is no separation between real money and bonus money, its all just real money. To develop separate wallets now is a very complicated and time consuming process. We also need our regulator to approve the development work as it deals mainly with customer balances. It's not really justified in our opinion however we know players are requesting this functionality. We thought rather allow players to control "when" they receive the cashback instead by changing the wagering increments that trigger cashback release. It's "almost" the same thing and a temporary solution until we get to figuring out how best to implement a true automated batch solution.
I never said that our system helps you to win, our system simply removes the restrictive conditions that stop players from withdrawing their own funds and the funds they win without meeting wagering requirements of bonuses. As i mentioned in previous post, we can avoid the "drip feed" by changing how you receive the cashback i.e. from $2 in $60, to $10 in $300, $20 in $600 etc etc... depending on the type of player you are, we can accommodate pretty much all requests relating to cashpay release (apart from the batch processing of course which i explained above)
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- Dec 13, 2011
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I was told that we are not allowed to mention a players bet amounts so i requested that the post be edited.
I'll say it -it's no problem. The way you did things ties in with a long ago post about which bonuses players prefer - direct cash back was coined by a player on that forum and a conversation ensued about volatility risks.
I played loaded on massive hands to see how would real cash drip correlate to huge bankroll bets for myself. It didn't - as you said yourself it only cashed back at 16% instead of the advertised 100% (i think) and that's directly correlated to generated volume so there is no bankroll guarantee.
if you look up the thread you'll see that's exactly the discussion good people of this forum had at the time.
so as a result i was seeing how far my cashback goes in proportion to the advertised 100% on playing high volatility at large bet size - as you said 16%. it's self protective and that's great. If i happened to hit lucky in the first few hands then id have hit lucky with my initial balance anyway on any casino.
On the other hand, please understand that "we the sneaky ones" guarantee the double bankrolls as an amount upfront and do not have the AMOUNT awarded as a variable - it is NOT volume controlled - and as such need to protect ourselves from players playing at our casinos exactly how i played on yours. Your protection dropped my bonus amount from 100% as advertised to 16% - our system gives 100% upfront, but as such needs the WR and the max bet as deterrent.
Also please note that real money balances are not locked in on MGS casinos so your statement a few posts up that deposited funds winnings are likewise locked is also untrue. If you are to state such a thing, please clarify that that is a system mostly employed by playtech bonus system's and even that is not 100% true for every operator they have.
I don't call your system evil or sneky for giving me less bonus that my promised 100% as such you shouldn't berate ours(32Reds or anyone's) without understanding it either.
Igor
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Again, as a representative of the industry you arent allowed to generalise as to why we do what we do if you dont actually know why we do what we do. It's dangerous and mis-informative and i would imagine by now you would offer an apology for stating the reason "why we give bonuses" which isn't truthful, rather than justify your statement by saying you were generalising.
It's just as wrong to be generic about your statement (seeing as the generalisation itself is bogus) as it is to make it directly related to 32Red.
Just don't judge what you don't know and frankly, it should be your job to know based on your occupation.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
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- United Kingdom
Rather than have to arrange this with the casino, why not have a "preferences" page for players to tailor aspects of their account, and this could include adding the value of the increments for the awarding of cashback. If players set a high enough value, then it IS pretty much "the same thing", even though players would have to keep on top of their profile settings in order to control the triggering.
What players need is an amount that they notice going in to their balance, and $2 is hardly going to get noticed at all, so even though they are getting it, players are not "experiencing" the benefit, so it is effectively like playing without any kind of incentive.
The benefits of a "batch" solution are that players would have something they are familiar with, the cashing in of loyalty points at most other casinos, but coupled with a far better rate of accrual than the standard 0.1% seen elsewhere.
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- Sep 17, 2009
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As Trill said, I seen some comments by the Wintigo rep in which I thought were not appropriate and commented on them, the rep since removed those comments and so I removed the quote with what I said at the request of Wintingo and to respect Igor's privacy.
Cheers
Matt
i dug up the thread out of curiosity:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...-system-around-is-clearplay-the-answer.49992/
In fact it was VWM that coined the concept of direct cashback at the time - page 3
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...-system-around-is-clearplay-the-answer.49992/
In fact it was VWM that coined the concept of direct cashback at the time
- page 3
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- Dec 13, 2011
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- Tingo Land
I dont believe i mentioned anywhere about "bank roll guarantee"?? All i mentioned was allowing players to withdraw their own funds and any funds they have won at any time.
Yes but if you hit lucky in the beginning and you played with a bonus then you would need to complete wagering before you can cash out. This is a restrictive term, this is my main argument.
Please also note, with Cashpay if a player does not manage to earn his full cashback (like in your case), should the player want to deposit again (even after he has a withdrawal pending) he will still be eligible to earn any un-realised cashback from previous deposits and any cashback that is connected to the new deposit. We carry over any un-earned cashback from one deposit to the next.
Your 100% upfront bonus sounds great, its standard industry practice as far as i can see. Our protection (as you say) did no such thing, the way you played (High volatility/large bets) could happen at any casino.
I'm not being arrogant here but we are fortunate enough that we don't need to protect ourselves from players that play in your style. All types of players are free to play how they like, when they like and any game they like (games do however have different weighting in order to earn the stated cashback). This is my whole point Igor, as you say you came onto Wintingo, you placed massive bets and still earned 16% of your bonus (volume controlled), if you won big you could have cashed out straight away because you already completed the required wagering in order to earn the 16% and therefore you did nothing untoward or you did not break any complicated bonus rule. In this case you were lucky, its gambling, you won and because there is no wagering requirement to withdraw, you are owed the money.
As stated above, you will earn the 100% and any unrealised cashback amounts by simply continuing to play with us.
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- Dec 13, 2011
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- Tingo Land
Its something we are working on, i have said it before, i think you are right here, a batch solution would be GREAT!. Unfortunately at the moment its manual but its very straightforward. You simply need to PM me with your details, it takes 5 minutes to implement it.
That is also true for us (and 32red and any other netnet, mgs, amaya, etcetecetc operator) ..... a HOST of operators out there don't lock in real money. You will find it more often that winnings from real balance can be withdrawn at any time at which point the BONUS balance is lost without having any influence on the real balance.
The ONLY difference between your system and the system you are berrating is that players have a guarantee bankroll upfront by which if they happen to deplete their real money balance they still have a decent amount of spins left in their bonus funds. They know exactly how much and what the conditions of turning that BONUS balance real are from before they deposit.
That is not the case with your system. If my RTP happens to be particularly bad for that session my awarded cashback will be far lower than advertised at the point of my deposit and i will get nowhere near my 100% cashback on my losses.
Hey, that again is just not true.
Again, please do your research. If you deposit a 100 now, get 100 bonus, put 100 on bacarrat and make the real balance in to 200 - now you will have 200 real and 100 bonus. You can withdraw the real balance of 200 and anul the bonus balance of 100. In your case you would have 206 real balance and no bonus to keep you going if you hit a bad run - as you don't actually do bonuses. You are a "cash back on volume" casino.
So please correct your statement.
agreed - i never denied that or wanted to go into the discussion on how YOU do things. It has its perks - so much so it's not the first time it was looked into.
That said it's just DIFFERENT and no body came onto your thread and started complaining how you advertise 100% cashback while you should advertise UP TO 100% cashback on your first deposit: (conditions apply: in case of bad rtp you need to re-deposit to maximise your cash back amount) in small letters.
I don't have an issue with your system and i don't understand the need for you to advertise it on a thread that related to a max bet value on another casino using another system. Your statement to "come play at wintigo" quoted verbatim, is outright poaching, and your justification as to WHY is outright dis-information and THAT is what i have a problem with - not your system.
yes but on another casino i would have another 500 to play with, instead of receiving 65 from you. again, i don't know why you think this thread is about how wintingo does things and its making me believe your comments are not merely accidental as they appeared initially. I suggest opening a thread called "how we do things at wintingo and why" for a healthy on topic discussion.
You arent being arrogant - you are being different and catering to a player market that can understand it - and hey, GREAT for you
congrats. That doesn't mean we are sneaky or have ulterior motives in tying players up with bonuses. Again - not about you, its about max bet on a casino.i thnk we can really put a fork in this now, dont you agree?
Let's just agree that bonus based casinos are not ALL sneaky or evil - the systems and ways to do things are vehemently vast in the way they operate - some more fair or beneficial to players than others. And likewise, lets say your system is very ingenious, safe, less complicated and i am the first one to give you kudos for that :notworthy
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- Mostly the Netherlands
Much of what you argue is true Igor, but this:
is generally not the case: most Casinos never even will let you play table games on 100% match ups, or make bets consisting of more then half of your bankroll, which i think WT was referring to, but to me it is understandable to ensure some basic level of AP-protection
So maybe it is the case in Bet-At-Eu, but "normal" MG operators, and heaps of other provider-powered Casinos do have restrictions on bonuses, and force you to bust or make playthrough under set terms.
Nothing new really but for the sake of argument, i think i should point that out
is generally not the case: most Casinos never even will let you play table games on 100% match ups, or make bets consisting of more then half of your bankroll, which i think WT was referring to, but to me it is understandable to ensure some basic level of AP-protection
So maybe it is the case in Bet-At-Eu, but "normal" MG operators, and heaps of other provider-powered Casinos do have restrictions on bonuses, and force you to bust or make playthrough under set terms.
Nothing new really but for the sake of argument, i think i should point that out
Much of what you argue is true Igor, but this:
is generally not the case: most Casinos never even will let you play table games on 100% match ups, or make bets consisting of more then half of your bankroll, which i think WT was referring to, but to me it is understandable to ensure some basic level of AP-protection
So maybe it is the case in Bet-At-Eu, but "normal" MG operators, and heaps of other provider-powered Casinos do have restrictions on bonuses, and force you to bust or make playthrough under set terms.
Nothing new really but for the sake of argument, i think i should point that out
My case is a case where you win on your FIRST bet - using your real deposited money though - its super important.
Yeah if you place a bet of 100 and lose and then place a bet of another 100 using bonus funds, now you have game weights, wagering etc.
Here is the main differentiator - you can place the second bet because you actually have it upfront - that is the main and only the difference.
winning with real money bet wont invalidate your win. I'm pretty confident 32red doesn't do that but I'll be trolling their t&c's now to see if they do. I'd be gob smacked if i had to learn that they withhold real money bets based non their bet size and game played because there is a potential bonus in play.
look giving cashback on volume with a cap is nothing else but a post-wager loyalty bonus, or higher conversion of loyalty points, or pick yours. It's a reward that is given POST wagering, while others choose to give a reward PRE wagering for their acquisition and leave the post wagering rewards for long term retention. I'm not arguing wintingo systems here - i'm arguing that to say real monies get locked in on other casinos in such a general way is simply misinformative - and really - poaching is not cool. I've said that before - i'll stick to it
I'm personally forking this now
I have my own baptism thread i'm neglecting
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
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- United Kingdom
For a single session, this is true, and in such cases a traditional bonus would at least offer a chance to climb back out and get a better overall RTP, but the disadvantage is the WR. Wintingo, however, allow the unearned cashback to carry over, so a player that continues to deposit will get closer to the long term expected RTP, and thus would end up having a balancing good session that earned all the carried cashbacks from previous offers.
The original Clearplay DID allow the withdrawal of real money and winnings at any time, with the bonus then removed, it was simple in concept, but it didn't take long for Advantage Players to spot the main flaw, and it was to bet 200 on Baccarat (100 real, 100 bonus), and withdraw 200 on a winning bet, but lose only 100 if unlucky.
Clearplay did nothing to protect casinos against advantage players, so operators modified it, most only keeping the concept of game weightings, but going back to the traditional locking in of all money till WR was completed.
Most casinos still like traditional bonuses, and many players like the idea. What they DON'T like are all the complicated terms, and the fact that some casinos use them as "traps" to punish even the minor mistakes like a misclick, which is using them to maximise profit, rather than to protect the casino from determined Advantage Players.
This is an argument between two different attempts to address the issue, we have the bonus free cashback model vs the redesigned bonus model that should mean most players CANNOT ever reach a point where a casino confiscates their winnings, yet Advantage Players find that their usual strategies are blocked at source, such as overlimit bets being declined, or outstanding WR being increased in proportion to any breach of bet limits.
The thing that needs to be addressed now is ID for players. This is getting so complicated that some players just cannot comply, even though they are fine, honest, upstanding citizens, not devious scammers.
Just as some clubs and theme parks do, the industry should operate it's own system for giving players a universal ID that can be used at any casino. It would mean players getting thoroughly vetted and verified once, and with whatever ID and documents they get from their government, along with various database checks, and issued with a "Casino photo ID" card in the post, that they then use to prove their ID to each casino they play at.
If I buy an annual pass for the big theme park company in the UK, they don't ask me to show my passport each time I enter (relying then on an internal database to check my pass status), they issue me a photo pass valid for that year, and this is checked upon entry. This means that even without a passport or driving license, I would still be able to purchase an annual pass, something that would not be possible if they relied on government photo ID and a database check.
Like online casinos, a theme park is part of the "entertainment industry".
catapultaudio
Experienced Member
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- Mar 18, 2013
- Location
- Leeds, UK
How do you mean ? You already have code written to do batch payments and just want a PM of specific requests? Or that you think it could be coded quickly if somebody sends you details of HOW it should be plugged in?
I totally agree that the option to let all the cashback build and collect in one go would be fantastic, as it stands I can definitely agree since signing up last night and collecting £12 of cashback I didn't notice receiving the payment even once and infact by the 5th time was watching my balance when it clocked over to see if it was actually happening or not, wondering if perhaps i needed to go find a button to redeem what I had collected...
It's definitely a great idea though and the fact it rolls over between deposits is again, really really nice.
Side note: Whilst I have been experiencing some ROTTEN runs of luck at Wintingo since last night, somehow I am also sitting pretty at nearly 6x my deposit .. the first time I've not busted out before doubling my money in weeks! Please lord say I have reached the other side of my money sucking chasm ??? ...
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- Jun 20, 2001
ID is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
Why would you even bring that up, besides the fact it is your "bugbear of the decade"?
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- Dec 13, 2011
- Location
- Tingo Land
No we dont have the code for this and no unfortunately it cant be coded quickly. I was saying that if individual players want us to change the increments in how the cashpay is released then they can PM me. For example, currently its $2 in $60, we can customise per a player and make it $10 in $300 for example.
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- Sep 26, 2004
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- SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Hmm, I realized this a couple of years ago. BJ, Paigow Poker and Baccarat to name a few. If the implementation of a max bet ensures that the % of a bonus is not exceeded as in some cases its a good thing actually. Sorry I hadn't read the whole thread so maybe someone may already have brought this up.
hey mark,
I've PM'd you the details
If anyone else wants a public explanation of how our bonus system works on this thread - please let me know, otherwise i explained it on our baptism thread.
Igor
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
It's a relevant issue that requires more exposure, as at present it is being swept under the carpet, and attempts to produce a system better suited to the needs of players are continually stonewalled without any real explanation of just how and why the suggestions are "impossible to implement".
This thread has already brought about a wider debate over two alternative systems trying to overcome the problems with bonuses in the industry.
For many in the UK, such debate is largely irrelevant because they don't drive. It is a ridiculous state of affairs that one's ability or not to drive has such a significant bearing on one's eligibility to gamble online. It's NOT a problem in other countries because different systems are used where photo ID is issued independently of any qualifications, such as a driving test pass. If the UK is such an important market, the industry needs to take the issue more seriously, or suffer the consequences of bad PR.
The current shambles over ID is deterring potential players who bother to do their research before signing up, as they will realise that they can never be eligible to receive their withdrawals. The current problems are down to too FEW UK players realising this till it's too late, so the damage to the bottom line is far less than it would be if every UK player realised the potential problems that often only arise when they win.
If more players checked up the ID issue beforehand, there would be far fewer complaints, but this would be due to those players affected deciding not to play to start with, and this will only hurt the industry as this will be a class of customer unavailable to them.
With the industry now fully mainstream, with TV ads and program sponsorship, the negative issues will also start receiving more publicity. This deters even more customers, the same way that seeing a company featured on BBC Watchdog deters me from placing an order with them that I was otherwise going to place with them.
Online gambling has already been featured on Panorama and Dispatches, but it has focused mostly on Poker and sports betting, rather than casinos. The coverage has also tended to be negative towards the operators.
Far from idiot-proofing. This also prevents honest mistakes. Why would you be against something like this? This protects players, and that's a bad thing?
catapultaudio
Experienced Member
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- Mar 18, 2013
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- Leeds, UK
vinylweatherman I am absolutely 100% with you on the ID issue ! this has been causing me no end of headaches this year, I do realise that most places are clear they will need ID when making a withdrawal and so choose not to bother depositing and playing until I get the issue sorted out, but plenty of others just refuse to give a clear and simple answer when asked if they check identity electronically or how large a cashout would trigger a request for documents.
One massive annoyance for me is the refusal of pretty much every casino to accept a passport simply because it is no longer valid for travel - I find this completely ridiculous, the passport still required exactly the same criteria to be met in order to obtain it, that is to say, the fact a couple of numbers printed purely for the purpose of setting a time limit on how many years I may travel abroad, has zero consequence on who I am etc, and I cannot think of ANY reason that a passport should not be accepted as simply proof of identity or age just because it is no longer a valid document for entering another country.
One massive annoyance for me is the refusal of pretty much every casino to accept a passport simply because it is no longer valid for travel - I find this completely ridiculous, the passport still required exactly the same criteria to be met in order to obtain it, that is to say, the fact a couple of numbers printed purely for the purpose of setting a time limit on how many years I may travel abroad, has zero consequence on who I am etc, and I cannot think of ANY reason that a passport should not be accepted as simply proof of identity or age just because it is no longer a valid document for entering another country.
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- Ontario
I'm not in the ID checking business, but it may be that expired passport numbers are dropped from some database they use to check against?
not only that. I have got to disagree with catapult here. Expired passports are not asked back to be destroyed when issuing new ones making them easy to sell. It's harder to validate an expired passport then to validate an active one also (although there are providers that will allow you to check validity against year of issue).
That said, it's very silly to be unweavering on ID checks as if every country has the same. LIke everything, pragmatic approach and reason has to be employed for each situation - rules are great to set boundaries but when they start being implemented in a way that borderlines abuse then it's just bad business practice.
IMHO, a outdated passport say with a pic of the person holding a birth certificate should pass ANY scrutiny. and that's already pushing it - birth cert with proof of address, credit card scan etc etc already give enough information pints for a valid analysis of user authenticity.
Our T&C's state photo ID but as a few members on this forum can vouch we take case by case basis. One rule cant rule them all
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- May 22, 2012
Sorry, but that's totally untrue VWM. Your Provisional licence does not expire until your 70th Birthday. However, you have to renew your photo part of your licence every 10 years, so your photo can be updated. So you can gamble online for at least 52 years without ever having to pass a driving test. Costs £50 and then £20 every tenth year to renew photo. Far cheaper than a passport.
If you can afford to gamble you can afford £50 for permanent valid photo ID. You tend to exaggerate VWM!
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- UK
Sorry, but that's totally untrue VWM. Your Provisional licence does not expire until your 70th Birthday. However, you have to renew your photo part of your licence every 10 years, so your photo can be updated. So you can gamble online for at least 52 years without ever having to pass a driving test. Costs £50 and then £20 every tenth year to renew photo. Far cheaper than a passport.
If you can afford to gamble you can afford £50 for permanent valid photo ID. You tend to exaggerate VWM!
I dabble online infrequently as I don’t get the same buzz as B&M; this is me, the way I roll. Never really won an amount to reach the point where the radar catches me for big enough a win. I mostly play online for research purposes in order to get a feel for the real machines though admittedly with their lower RTP.
What gets me time and time again is the willingness to accept deposits and then when a magic figure of a withdrawal limit is hit results or cascades in all the information that is subsequently required, like I said not hit that wall but have read here on the forums.
Surely a clever person would low roll over many accounts through various means to wash the soiled money, I stand to be corrected as I am not an expert and post this for further knowledge.
The hoops I have read that some have gone through to get their winnings released would suggest and I don’t in any way say that it has be done, would put that person in a position of Identity fraud on a level where a party involved would have better proof that they were that Individual in ways more than the original person themselves.
Why should deposits be far less invasive to the point of non-existent and then exacerbate to the point where you need all manner of proof including a picture of yourself if you don’t drive (the UK is small enough to allow this) and further proof needed of your residency that would suggest exhuming the grave of your grandmother with her weathered hands holding her birth certificate and marriage licence.
Yeah I purchased some aluminium foil today to line my faraday cage but I never gave them the three digit security code on the back of the card, so I guess I am safe
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- Oct 14, 2004
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- United Kingdom
Sorry, but that's totally untrue VWM. Your Provisional licence does not expire until your 70th Birthday. However, you have to renew your photo part of your licence every 10 years, so your photo can be updated. So you can gamble online for at least 52 years without ever having to pass a driving test. Costs £50 and then £20 every tenth year to renew photo. Far cheaper than a passport.
If you can afford to gamble you can afford £50 for permanent valid photo ID. You tend to exaggerate VWM!
Strictly speaking, an online casino should not be allowed to make and retain a copy of a passport. What IS allowed is for a business to ask to look at the document, and make a note of the relevant details on it. This is all about preventing a photocopy of the personal details page falling into the hands of forgers.
It would be OK to ask for the ID number of the document, which could then be used for an ID check.
Although a drivers license remains valid till the 70th Birthday, it is still rejected as expired by casinos if the renewal date for the photo has been passed. The insistence of a photo is not really necessary as the casino never sees you in person, so it can't play much part in the checking process. It is also far more expensive to issue photo documents than paper ones, and this is why the UK government have decided to scrap plans for national ID cards in favour of strengthening electronic checking by making sure that the various databases can "talk to each other", and combine their records for running ID and eligibility checks.
It's not actually illegal for us to send a copy of our passport, it's illegal for certain businesses to demand it (they may ask, but if we refuse they are not allowed to pressure or "blackmail" us into agreeing). There is an advisory that says we should only send such documents and details to companies we can trust will keep this data secure, but the online casino industry is a mess of convoluted shell companies and outsourced arrangements, so no player can EVER know what legal entity is really behind it all, and where their data will eventually be stored and secured.
There are businesses that ask for our passports for proof of ID, but we can find out who their CEO is, who their owners are, and they are normally regulated by a major government. With online casinos, we know who rubber stamped their gambling license, but we can only see as far as the shell company that serves the casino to the player, which in many cases is purely a "paper entity", not an actual company with employees.
I can see a time when the government wakes up and smells the coffee, and finds out that vast databases of UK passport colour copies are secured in Manila for most Playtech casinos, and Costa Rica for RTG. They may then FORCE a change at short notice, which will damage casinos just as much as the sudden actions we saw from the DoJ when the industry felt that the latest move would do no more damage than all the previous efforts to outlaw gambling for US citizens.
We may see some of this in the detailed requirements for being granted secondary licenses, and it may specify which countries may be used to store and process players' personal data, and which may not. This could be a problem for quite a few Playtech casinos, including William Hill.
As for provisional licenses, some casinos have rejected these because they are only provisional and have insisted on it being a FULL license, so they are insisting that the player has qualified to drive unsupervised, not merely have a government issued document with a photo on it.
Some people are not allowed to get a driving license by law, and this is due to things like having Diabetes or Epilepsy, or being registered blind. For these, no amount of extra expense helps, they can't have this particular "photo ID" document for other purposes. This then potentially brings the casino business into a clash with the Disability Discrimination Act, and all it would take would be for one of these "ambulance chaser" firms to cotton on to the potential and start the trawl for "victims".
Imagine the call. "Hello, have you ever been denied your rightful winnings from an online casino because you could not produce a driving license because you could not get one due to a disability or illness...... our no win no fee team would like to hear from you...".
These firms are going to have to look for something after PPI claims dry up, and the new field of continuous payment authority cancellation has been thoroughly bled dry. Everyone who has ever tripped over the kerb or received whiplash on the bus has already been dealt with.
Birth certificates, bills, statements, etc are documents most of us get anyway. We don't have to go to extra trouble and expense to get them, just as most of the EU doesn't have to go to extra trouble and expense to get their national ID card as it is automatically issued by the state to everyone.
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
Sorry, but that's totally untrue VWM. Your Provisional licence does not expire until your 70th Birthday. However, you have to renew your photo part of your licence every 10 years, so your photo can be updated. So you can gamble online for at least 52 years without ever having to pass a driving test. Costs £50 and then £20 every tenth year to renew photo. Far cheaper than a passport.
If you can afford to gamble you can afford £50 for permanent valid photo ID. You tend to exaggerate VWM!
Totally agree.
VWM has been bleating on about this UK ID stuff for years, and my answer (like yours) is always the same:
1. If one READS the terms in relation to ID (which sensible people do) and notices that they do NOT have the required docs, they should either contact the casino BEFORE playing to see if what they DO have is sufficient, OR get the required ID, OR DON'T PLAY.
2. The number of players who are affected, if CM over the years is any guide (and it usually is), is ABSOLUTELY TINY. It is NOT a major issue, and never has been.
3. If UK players want hassle-free withdrawals etc, then they CAN easily get ID as per dunovers posts.
Once you start relaxing ID requirements across the board, you're asking for fraudsters to make your casino port of call number one.
The REAL solution is for casinos to be flexible in individual cases, as Igor states. However, failing that, it is up to the player to prove their ID.
VWM says "strictly speaking".....who says? Is this one of your professional legal opinions, or do you have solid applicable legislation or case law that you can quote in support of your statement. Sounds like you're making stuff up again.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
It's guidance on the HMSO website, and for passports was also guidance on the Home Office website and in a leaflet that came with the application forms.
It is not OUR fault that the government does things differently here, so businesses should blame the UK government, not the customer.
If a business touts for business in the UK, they should be prepared to work with how things are done here. If they are not prepared to, they should tout for business in other markets where their requirements cause no problems whatsoever.
ALL British citizens CAN provide ID, the problem is that the formats our government has chosen do not match the formats the majority of governments have chosen. Rules are sometimes vague, and some casinos refuse to tell players in advance if what they have is acceptable.
It is trust, unjustified trust, that leads UK players into problems. They trust that the casino will take a reasonable attitude because they are "government regulated", usually by Malta. What most new players don't know is that being regulated by Malta is pretty worthless when it comes to protecting PLAYERS, as this regulation is all about protecting the casinos, and of course dodging taxes.
It's also possible that the UK government could end up getting "sued" (it's not the same procedure as suing a company though) for failing to equip it's citizens with what they need to be a full part of the EU "single market".
The UK government has published a list of what documents can be considered acceptable for a KYC check, and businesses are supposed to abide by this list else they can be in trouble for not "acting fairly" with customers. This list varies from much of the EU as it specified alternative documents to the usual national ID card found elsewhere. instead of a single photo document, the list specified 2 or 3 other documents that can combine to take it's place.
The casinos that are not flexible are just hiding behind the KYC procedure in order to make extra money through not paying out winnings that they should. This is especially the case for the smaller amounts where the cost of trying to get different documents is greater than the winnings expected, making the sensible course of action just walking away.
It's only a "minor problem" because it is specific to the UK among the EU member states. We don't see such lack of flexibility in the US where many people don't bother getting passports because they would rather stay in their own country when it comes to holidays. Many online casinos there demand US players give them their social security number, which quite a few US players have pointed out should not be given out. The UK equivalent is the National insurance number, which EVERYONE gets issued when they turn 16, and stays with them for life.
It will be interesting to see what the new regulations come up with, as the government will have to address the issue of passports and driving licenses being sent by email to casinos, and stored wherever these casinos see fit. They will either rewrite the guidance for this, or ban it, but UK players will finally know what the government thinks of the current KYC system being used.
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2008
- Location
- Ontario
I DO read terms and conditions, and consider myself a careful player.
Many terms state Government issued photo ID, such as passport or driver's licence. They don't say ONLY passport or driver's licence.
I've had my photo ID rejected because it didn't have my address on it. I've had my age of majority rejected because it didn't have my birth date. Had it rejected here at a land-based one as "being too old". In 1977, I had attained the age of 18 years, I never got any younger!
Many terms state Government issued photo ID, such as passport or driver's licence. They don't say ONLY passport or driver's licence.
I've had my photo ID rejected because it didn't have my address on it. I've had my age of majority rejected because it didn't have my birth date. Had it rejected here at a land-based one as "being too old". In 1977, I had attained the age of 18 years, I never got any younger!
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
No......it is a minor issue because it affects a TINY proportion of UK casino players....NOT the whole of the UK as you state. Talk about gilding the lily.
You can go on about UK "guidance" websites all day, but online casinos are not licenced in the UK, and are not subject to UK laws. Yes....we know the UK is bringing in laws, but again they will only apply to those licenced in th UK (which given the price for operators might be very limited).
The only casinos that don't work with players to resolve ID issues are rogues. Decent operators will allow flexibility.
I think it is ridiculous to say that operators deliberately refuse ID to keep winnings....well the rogues might, and that's why they're rogues, so it is pointless including them as nothing anyone says or does will change things.
Huge posts full of legal interpretations and other made-up "facts" doesn't make an issue any more important. All it does is make a mountain out of a very small molehill, and cause one to start skimming after the first sentence.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
It's important to those it affects!
I bet if an issue affected you, but was peculiar to a "tiny proportion of Australian citizens", you wouldn't be happy to just sit back and accept it.
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
I've already SAID what I would do......given that I play online casinos all the time, I would go and GET whatever ID was required...in this case, a form of photo ID or passport. If it was going to save me hassles everywhere, it would be worth every penny.
What I would NOT do is bang on about making sweeping changes to ID processing and accuse casinos of "advertising to the financially excluded" or whatever rot you were stating earlier.
If every one of those UK players without the correct photo ID lost their winnings as a result, or even a majority, then perhaps there might be something to change.....but the fact is that in just about every case, the operator works something out with the player and all is well. Yes, there might be a longer delay, but that's how it is if one doesn't have the required ID. The only exceptions to this seem to be the rogues, who take no notice of industry standards anyway, so aren't worth spending time on.
Lastly, if I were a UK player with insufficient ID or no photo ID, and/or I have had issues previously with ID verification at other casinos, the FIRST thing I would do BEFORE playing would be to ASK the casino if what I had was acceptable in writing. If not, then play elsewhere. It is very simple. As I said, there are people here that have these ID issues over and over who could avoid it all just by using some common sense.
If those players affected are not prepared to either obtain photo ID, or check first before playing, then IMO it is tough cookies. One cannot expect everyone else to bend over backwards and make wholesale exceptions when one makes no effort to resolve the issue and prevent the issue recurring.
ANyway, this thread has already gone way off the rails...so back to the max bet limit discussion. Thankyou.
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2007
- Location
- Respect-land
What is less fair? Taking all of your winnings or implementing a max bet feature. Seems almost like you're not happy with the fact casinos are finally doing something to lower the number of players that have been screwed over.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
You can't "get" what doesn't exist in your country.
This means that a UK citizen CANNOT apply for and obtain a national ID card, nor is there anything that will act as a proxy such as a drivers license with no categories shown as offered in some US states.
You don't simply "get" a passport any longer either, the "war on terror" has put a stop to that. You face a 2 month process that at one point requires the applicant to make a journey which for some can be over 100 miles on unreliable public transport (if they could drive there, they wouldn't be having the problem in the first place). Secondly, your social circle has to contain someone like a Judge or other professional, which for many people is another considerable obstacle (it can't be a relative either). It's also no good if the professional has retired, they have to still be working.
Getting a passport purely to receive a casino withdrawal is way beyond overkill.
Obtaining a passport in Australia is probably a different process, and maybe a citizen there can just "get one" with minimum effort and paying a fee.
The equivalent of the UK system would be to require all applicants for the Australian passport to attend an interview in person at the state capital, no matter how deeply in the outback they were living.
GrandMaster
Dormant account
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2004
- Location
- UK
You exaggerate somewhat. There are 69 passport interview offices in England, Scotland and Wales, and anyone who is more than 1 hours' travel away from the nearest office can have the interview by secure video link whatever that is. The list of people who can countersign the photo is quite long and includes, among others, pub licencees, and retired people can also sign.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
They seem to have relaxed the requirements somewhat. Initially there were less than a dozen venues, and no video link service.
Previously though, the whole thing could be done by post or via a local post office branch. That's when you really could "just get" your passport by sending a pair of photos and a cheque, along with the form, in the post.
Perhaps it's the UK Government that are listening, even if the casinos won't budge. Pity they don't push such information out to the public.
I have also heard that the restriction on making colour copies has been lifted, but I can't find this new guidance anywhere. All that comes up is the guidance from 2002 that says only a black and white copy may be made, and this is the guidance that makes the casino requests for colour copies of passports technically illegal.
If the UK government are now using the passport as an official proxy for a national ID card, they should let the public know. We need some more recent guidance tailored to the way KYC is done now over the internet, and then make this guidance visible to search engines so that it comes up in preference to the old 2002 guidance.
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
Oh and...
"Thanks Dunover. I didn't know that"
It is not ILLEGAL for the casino to request color photos. LOL. Just because something cannot (or turns out it CAN actually) be provided, doesn't mean asking for it is illegal. Sheesh.
*gurgle gurgle gurgle*....that's the sound of your "UK players can't get photo ID it is too hard blah blah" argument of 2 years going down the plughole.
If a UK player is going to play online, then photo ID is a sound, and necessary, investment.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
In some cases it IS illegal to "require" compliance with a procedure that would cause a breach of UK law.
In the case of passports, it was illegal to "require", but not illegal to "request". It is STILL illegal to "require" a UK citizen to hand over the physical document to be used as a form of surety, such as making sure they pay off a credit account or return hired goods, however if it is merely a "request" it would not be illegal as there would be the option to refuse.
Only certain named individuals and bodies may take control of a passport from a citizen, it is a valuable document and a security risk if it falls into the wrong hands, hence the restrictions on who can take control of it from the holder.
Despite such restrictions, it seems that fake passports are still relatively easy to get hold of, so it is odd that there appears to have been a relaxation, rather than tightening, of restrictions.
From what Igor has recently posted, it looks like requests for screenshots of Neteller accounts are here to stay, so you will have to get used to it just as UK players have had to get used to "unreasonable" requirements because the usual requested document is something our government does not issue.
Who knows what the next requirement will be that will become a common standard, and how players will react to it.
Maybe sending off our DNA will not be the joke it is today
- Joined
- May 22, 2012
Look, we have no national ID card VWM, as you say. The casinos ask for PHOTO ID of which most of us have two. These are of course DL and passport. Now, the first thing most 17 year-olds do is get their driving licence. This will have a photo. It matters not whether they pass a test or not. When since has there been a difference to casinos whether the DL is provisional or has added vehicle categories because you've passed a test? I never realized being able to drive was a necessity to gamble online.
When I was 18 almost everybody I knew had been abroad (requiring a passport) AND had got their provisional DL. Now, excuse me if I'm being judgmental, but if a young adult has not travelled further than their local MacDonalds or shown an interest in vehicular mobility for both social and employment purposes, then really they have better things to achieve than 3 scatters in their lives.
It is not unreasonable for a casino to request a view of either document. It is simple to upload. It's no good bellyaching AFTER you've gambled that you have neither. Now I realize this sometimes occurs because the 1-in-10,000 who have neither photo ID may have gambled and w/d at a site that paid them without asking because they w/d less than a certain amount, and then found they couldn't w/d at the next because that site asked for photo ID and the player assumed (because they never read the T&C's) that it would be the same as their last casino.
This explains why I stated 'idiot proofing bonus spin values' was bad, and I was frowned on by the knee-jerk brigade before they realized what I was trying to say - you will get the SAME scenario as described in the paragraph above, whereby because the player wasn't asked at casino A, they ASSUME the same will apply at casino B. Then they come on here thinking they've been treated unfairly.
IF the worst comes to the worst, get the ID after you win. Instead of bleating on here, go to the post office, go in the photo booth, get you passport application or DL application in next day. They even have an 'idiots counter' in main post offices whereby for a fee of a few pounds, the clerk will fill all the forms in and check them for you - all you do is sling her the payment and the photo and your birth certificate. The passport office and DVLA are quite expedient when it comes to sending the DL or PP back to you. You usually have them in 3-5 days.
So, if you act fast, as soon as you win and they ask for ID, you could have it done and scanned within 7 days, and be paid a 1-4 days after that. A total wait of 7-11 days from being asked for ID. Not bad, when you consider even verified US players routinely wait 10-14 days for cashouts.
So quit moaning, just get the ID (thereafter you're fine for at least 10 years at any casino) and get used to providing it. Any proper casino going by the rules and just general security will ask for it, now, tomorrow and next year.......
When I was 18 almost everybody I knew had been abroad (requiring a passport) AND had got their provisional DL. Now, excuse me if I'm being judgmental, but if a young adult has not travelled further than their local MacDonalds or shown an interest in vehicular mobility for both social and employment purposes, then really they have better things to achieve than 3 scatters in their lives.
It is not unreasonable for a casino to request a view of either document. It is simple to upload. It's no good bellyaching AFTER you've gambled that you have neither. Now I realize this sometimes occurs because the 1-in-10,000 who have neither photo ID may have gambled and w/d at a site that paid them without asking because they w/d less than a certain amount, and then found they couldn't w/d at the next because that site asked for photo ID and the player assumed (because they never read the T&C's) that it would be the same as their last casino.
This explains why I stated 'idiot proofing bonus spin values' was bad, and I was frowned on by the knee-jerk brigade before they realized what I was trying to say - you will get the SAME scenario as described in the paragraph above, whereby because the player wasn't asked at casino A, they ASSUME the same will apply at casino B. Then they come on here thinking they've been treated unfairly.
IF the worst comes to the worst, get the ID after you win. Instead of bleating on here, go to the post office, go in the photo booth, get you passport application or DL application in next day. They even have an 'idiots counter' in main post offices whereby for a fee of a few pounds, the clerk will fill all the forms in and check them for you - all you do is sling her the payment and the photo and your birth certificate. The passport office and DVLA are quite expedient when it comes to sending the DL or PP back to you. You usually have them in 3-5 days.
So, if you act fast, as soon as you win and they ask for ID, you could have it done and scanned within 7 days, and be paid a 1-4 days after that. A total wait of 7-11 days from being asked for ID. Not bad, when you consider even verified US players routinely wait 10-14 days for cashouts.
So quit moaning, just get the ID (thereafter you're fine for at least 10 years at any casino) and get used to providing it. Any proper casino going by the rules and just general security will ask for it, now, tomorrow and next year.......
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
Look, we have no national ID card VWM, as you say. The casinos ask for PHOTO ID of which most of us have two. These are of course DL and passport. Now, the first thing most 17 year-olds do is get their driving licence. This will have a photo. It matters not whether they pass a test or not. When since has there been a difference to casinos whether the DL is provisional or has added vehicle categories because you've passed a test? I never realized being able to drive was a necessity to gamble online.
When I was 18 almost everybody I knew had been abroad (requiring a passport) AND had got their provisional DL. Now, excuse me if I'm being judgmental, but if a young adult has not travelled further than their local MacDonalds or shown an interest in vehicular mobility for both social and employment purposes, then really they have better things to achieve than 3 scatters in their lives.
It is not unreasonable for a casino to request a view of either document. It is simple to upload. It's no good bellyaching AFTER you've gambled that you have neither. Now I realize this sometimes occurs because the 1-in-10,000 who have neither photo ID may have gambled and w/d at a site that paid them without asking because they w/d less than a certain amount, and then found they couldn't w/d at the next because that site asked for photo ID and the player assumed (because they never read the T&C's) that it would be the same as their last casino.
This explains why I stated 'idiot proofing bonus spin values' was bad, and I was frowned on by the knee-jerk brigade before they realized what I was trying to say - you will get the SAME scenario as described in the paragraph above, whereby because the player wasn't asked at casino A, they ASSUME the same will apply at casino B. Then they come on here thinking they've been treated unfairly.
IF the worst comes to the worst, get the ID after you win. Instead of bleating on here, go to the post office, go in the photo booth, get you passport application or DL application in next day. They even have an 'idiots counter' in main post offices whereby for a fee of a few pounds, the clerk will fill all the forms in and check them for you - all you do is sling her the payment and the photo and your birth certificate. The passport office and DVLA are quite expedient when it comes to sending the DL or PP back to you. You usually have them in 3-5 days.
So, if you act fast, as soon as you win and they ask for ID, you could have it done and scanned within 7 days, and be paid a 1-4 days after that. A total wait of 7-11 days from being asked for ID. Not bad, when you consider even verified US players routinely wait 10-14 days for cashouts.
So quit moaning, just get the ID (thereafter you're fine for at least 10 years at any casino) and get used to providing it. Any proper casino going by the rules and just general security will ask for it, now, tomorrow and next year.......
There are many casinos that have refused an ID because it was only a provisional driving license.
I did not have a passport till I was over 40.
Whilst most young people aspire to drive, a significant number cannot, for medical reasons, ever realise their aspirations, yet they are considered fully fit for work (by ATOS), and are otherwise expected to take on full adult responsibilities without extra help. If you are medically unfit to drive, you are not even allowed a provisional. It's possible to get one by lying though, and unless you actually get caught driving on it, it is unlikely DVLA will ever find out about your medical history. Should we be encouraging players to get provisional for ID, and lie about any medical bar because they will never actually drive with it and put lives at risk.
As passports are relatively expensive, and last only 10 years, not for life. Many wait until they expect to travel abroad before getting one, so get caught out by such ID requests. Part of the problem is that then they cannot simply get their passport quickly, it's a 6 week+ process, and this means waiting 6 weeks before any chance of receiving that withdrawal. On average, players get enraged if they are made to wait 6 DAYS, so in many cases the issue is not so much the getting of a passport, but the fact that it condemns them to a 6 week minimum wait for their money. This is a problem almost unique to the UK. Players from Germany, for example, would also face a wait and fees to get a passport, but they would never face this because they would use their national ID card instead, which EVERYBODY gets issued, and no-one has to "get" when faced with a requirement for ID.
It's not a case of UK players not having any ID, we DO have ID, it's just not the same as "everyone else's", and this is down to the government.
It's offshore business marketing into the UK, but not accepting how we do things here, and trying to squeeze the UK customer into their "one size fits all" simplistic view of the world.
So far, we have people who have the advantage telling those who don't to just "accept the inequality for the greater good", yet these same people don't seem to be prepared to practice what they preach when the tables are turned, and THEY find themselves in the "lower class" position.
Who knows, there might come a requirement that really angers those who have not been affected by the current issues, but where the people currently suffering disadvantage just can't see what the fuss is about.
To offer an example. What if casinos decided to ditch the usual photo ID requirements, and started insisting players send in photos of themselves holding certain other documents such as birth certificates. For those WITH the right photo documents, this would be replacing an easy requirement with an onerous one, yet those without would merely be doing what they often end up doing in lieu of having an ID card, and wonder why all the fuss.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
Look, we have no national ID card VWM, as you say. The casinos ask for PHOTO ID of which most of us have two. These are of course DL and passport. Now, the first thing most 17 year-olds do is get their driving licence. This will have a photo. It matters not whether they pass a test or not. When since has there been a difference to casinos whether the DL is provisional or has added vehicle categories because you've passed a test? I never realized being able to drive was a necessity to gamble online.
When I was 18 almost everybody I knew had been abroad (requiring a passport) AND had got their provisional DL. Now, excuse me if I'm being judgmental, but if a young adult has not travelled further than their local MacDonalds or shown an interest in vehicular mobility for both social and employment purposes, then really they have better things to achieve than 3 scatters in their lives.
It is not unreasonable for a casino to request a view of either document. It is simple to upload. It's no good bellyaching AFTER you've gambled that you have neither. Now I realize this sometimes occurs because the 1-in-10,000 who have neither photo ID may have gambled and w/d at a site that paid them without asking because they w/d less than a certain amount, and then found they couldn't w/d at the next because that site asked for photo ID and the player assumed (because they never read the T&C's) that it would be the same as their last casino.
This explains why I stated 'idiot proofing bonus spin values' was bad, and I was frowned on by the knee-jerk brigade before they realized what I was trying to say - you will get the SAME scenario as described in the paragraph above, whereby because the player wasn't asked at casino A, they ASSUME the same will apply at casino B. Then they come on here thinking they've been treated unfairly.
IF the worst comes to the worst, get the ID after you win. Instead of bleating on here, go to the post office, go in the photo booth, get you passport application or DL application in next day. They even have an 'idiots counter' in main post offices whereby for a fee of a few pounds, the clerk will fill all the forms in and check them for you - all you do is sling her the payment and the photo and your birth certificate. The passport office and DVLA are quite expedient when it comes to sending the DL or PP back to you. You usually have them in 3-5 days.
So, if you act fast, as soon as you win and they ask for ID, you could have it done and scanned within 7 days, and be paid a 1-4 days after that. A total wait of 7-11 days from being asked for ID. Not bad, when you consider even verified US players routinely wait 10-14 days for cashouts.
So quit moaning, just get the ID (thereafter you're fine for at least 10 years at any casino) and get used to providing it. Any proper casino going by the rules and just general security will ask for it, now, tomorrow and next year.......
Wrong.
From the governments own site:-
You are referring to the RENEWAL procedures for those that already have a passport.
Those who have encountered the request for the first time after exceeding a certain withdrawal threshold have a MINIMUM wait of 6 weeks. There is no option to use the "fast track" service for a higher fee either.
Those who already have their passport probably got it to travel abroad, and are very likely to keep it renewed in any case. Such players are not inconvenienced by such checks, even if a request comes "out of the blue".
I am not arguing for my own benefit, I have both passport and drivers license, I am "all right Jack". I am pressing the point for those less fortunate, and who are in the position I almost found myself in during the early 2000's.
But VWM, if you are going to go into online gambling and proceed for extended period of time and you KNOW your life will be easier if you have one, then WHY NOT wait 6 weeks and do the necessary jumbo mumbo so you can ensure your 10k win if happens, when happens, isn't going to be more trouble than its worth?
I don't get it. I mean, yeah theoretically you have a point 100% - in a perfect world each player would be treated to their comfort zone level but resource, information and capacity is just simply NOT readily available to do that.
So why fight the system you crave to be a part of by your own choice so strongly? Isn't it just "easier" to cave in on this one? I'm not arguing, i'm honestly asking and while yes I agree that theoretically you have 1000% validity in your statement, if you know its just troublesome and you know it wont change any time soon easily - why not just agree to it? Like tax really
EDIT: sorry i jumped to answer without reading the all-right-jack part. The above statement rings true for the "less fortunate" - if you know its a common practice, conform to it for the few quid it costs and you wont have troubles. Who knows, you might even fly somewhere since you have it.
I don't get it. I mean, yeah theoretically you have a point 100% - in a perfect world each player would be treated to their comfort zone level but resource, information and capacity is just simply NOT readily available to do that.
So why fight the system you crave to be a part of by your own choice so strongly? Isn't it just "easier" to cave in on this one? I'm not arguing, i'm honestly asking and while yes I agree that theoretically you have 1000% validity in your statement, if you know its just troublesome and you know it wont change any time soon easily - why not just agree to it? Like tax really
EDIT: sorry i jumped to answer without reading the all-right-jack part. The above statement rings true for the "less fortunate" - if you know its a common practice, conform to it for the few quid it costs and you wont have troubles. Who knows, you might even fly somewhere since you have it.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2009
- Location
- the land of snow and maple syrup
Just as an aside, I've had issues with my photo Id not being accepted at a couple places( the vast majority of places, no issue) and so I hear ' wel, just get such and such' id and it isn't always that easy. Here's an example..age of majority..cant get it, im too old, drivers license, I CAN'T drive, and no, smart bums, aint a DUI, its medical, get a passport..ok, tried that this past week..like igor says, just cave, go get it save the future headache, so went to go get it( and no, not everyone has a passport, I've been around the world, they do expire or get destroyed)...and I couldn't go get one..why? Where I live currently noone has known me for 2 years to vouchsafed the papers, and your partner or family dont count
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
But VWM, if you are going to go into online gambling and proceed for extended period of time and you KNOW your life will be easier if you have one, then WHY NOT wait 6 weeks and do the necessary jumbo mumbo so you can ensure your 10k win if happens, when happens, isn't going to be more trouble than its worth?
I don't get it. I mean, yeah theoretically you have a point 100% - in a perfect world each player would be treated to their comfort zone level but resource, information and capacity is just simply NOT readily available to do that.
So why fight the system you crave to be a part of by your own choice so strongly? Isn't it just "easier" to cave in on this one? I'm not arguing, i'm honestly asking and while yes I agree that theoretically you have 1000% validity in your statement, if you know its just troublesome and you know it wont change any time soon easily - why not just agree to it? Like tax really
EDIT: sorry i jumped to answer without reading the all-right-jack part. The above statement rings true for the "less fortunate" - if you know its a common practice, conform to it for the few quid it costs and you wont have troubles. Who knows, you might even fly somewhere since you have it.
That was why I got it, nothing to do with ID issues. I won a trip in 2006 to the world cup final, and realised straight away that I would need to get my first ever passport.
One issue for UK players is that they have been happily playing away for years, and have never been asked for this level of documentation. This idea of casinos being so narrow with their requirements is pretty recent. Depositing via Neteller used to mean not having to send a separate set of documents to the casino at all, they did KYC from the fact that Neteller had done it and passed you.
Many UK players are suddenly finding that after years without problems, they are suddenly faced with these requirements. It is not the case that they realised from the start that they had better get hold of certain documents in order to make life easy for them.
Even now the requirements keep changing. Now the standard documents are no longer enough, screenshots of Neteller transactions and photos of one holding up their documents are becoming more common. There is no way players can prepare in advance for such changes as they don't know in advance what the next requirement will be.
Supporting documents can be even harder to get hold of. Casinos still believe that no one but the head of a traditional household gambles online. It is the head of household that tends to get the supporting documents such as utility bills. Even these now come via email rather than the post, and often the only way to get something posted to you is to NOT pay a bill on time or break some minor law. Such actions WILL result in a letter being posted out in most cases.
For example, the council tax bill is always posted, but only once per year. By the end of July it is no longer useful for casino ID. To trigger the council to send another council tax bill one has to miss a payment, and this will trigger what is needed, and this will then last a further 3 months. Water bills can be worked via a similar ruse to generate additional bills that are dated within 3 months.
Many rent their accommodation, so don't get these bills in any case, they go to the landlord. They only get letters from the tax office in their name, but these come once a year.
It can be a serious effort just setting things up so that the right letters are available to scan and send to casinos. It can also be a significant barrier to joining a new casino as loyal players are not generally asked for documents every 3 months in order to continue playing. If players were to appreciate these requirements as much as they ought, I expect new signups would drop, but loyalty might increase.
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