Fairest Bonus System around - is Clearplay the answer?

Which bonus system do you like best?

  • Current standard: bonus/real locked until turnover.

    Votes: 6 13.0%
  • Bonus locked with high turnover, released at completion.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • MGS original clearplay is best. Kick the advantage players to the curb.

    Votes: 16 34.8%
  • Your current system is fair, MGS clearplay will make it better.

    Votes: 9 19.6%
  • None of the above. Bonuses are the bane of the industry.

    Votes: 15 32.6%

  • Total voters
    46

Igor82

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Malta
Hi All,

We're a new casino and haven't been yet put through baptism by fire (waiting to complete our MGS integration - currently running on Chartwell). This is soon to be requested, however I do have a question regarding bonus systems for the community.

We're fortunate enough to have developed our own platform that includes innovative CRM capabilities and in view of incoming MGS I would like to revisit the bonus system we employed.

This isn't going to be the shortest post, but please do read it until the end and comment as I would very much appreciate community's opinion on what is fair and what isn't.

Common Practice
At the moment, majority of systems work by allowing a player x% deposit bonus match and assigning a requirement. This turnover is required to be completed before any winnings can be withdrawn, including winnings from purely deposited funds.:eek:

In reality, a player may not need to utilise the bonus funds, yet they will be forced to wager a substantial amount before making their real money withdrawal. I have found this causes many players to opt-out of bonuses at the point of their deposit, not to have their funds locked in.:(

***************************************

Our Current Practice
We have employed a system which, until it was presented here I thought to be fairer than above. Some have disagreed and I am keen to listen to comments of what is, in your opinion, a reasonable approach (that doesn't leave the casino exposed to heavy abuse, forcing them to change their ways).

We have not tied real funds to bonus funds. Meaning, any bet and its winnings placed from real funds from the very first bet can be withdrawn in full at any point. Bets placed from bonus funds and their wining are locked however, until a full turnover is achieved. This allows the players that are lucky from the start to not have their funds locked in, while players who do end up utilising the bonus will have their winnings locked until turnover. So, if your £10 spin on slot utilised £5 from real funds and £5 from bonus funds, the winning hand will be credited 50% to real funds and can be withdrawn and 50% to bonus funds and will be locked.

The "catch" that had me hung up when presented on this forum: The turnover can only be made using real funds.

I thought this to be quite fair, considering real funds are never locked in. It would in retrospect only make sense that bonus funds remain 'playable only' until enough real fund wager has been achieved. It's also important to note that the turnovers as a result are averaging at x30 bonus only, making the real money volume placed reasonable. Not everyone agrees - fair enough.

If you do comment, I would appreciate it if you could offer advice on what you think about the way it is currently being calculated and if you are in disagreement on its fairness I would like to know why.

The idea is to create a non-abusable, player friendly system that works well for genuine players but is not open to wide abuse and potential swarm of PAB's & bad press in return.

So,

An option going forward

I was looking at MGS' Clearplay system (the old-school one). It's an absolutely brilliant system, baring the fact that it was widely abused by various strategies, employed by entire syndicates of players and caused substantial bonus damage to casinos. ooops :p

Something had to give and casinos vastly turned to higher turnovers, locked funds, etc.

The MGS's Clearplay system worked 'in analogue' mode, releasing the bonus funds into real funds in £10 increments, as the wagering was being completed. This meant that a player would withdraw any portion of their winnings (turned bonus increments included) while forfeiting the remaining bonus balance. Again, this was vastly abused and very few casino's implement it in its original form today...

I thought that merging the Clearplay, while employing the 'real money only' wager of our current system may be the answer to a relatively non-abusable (other restrictions will need to apply of course) and most importantly, fair bonus approach.

While only real money will count toward (a reasonable) wagering requirement, bonus increments are being unlocked during the wager itself allowing further turnover.(?!)

**********************

It's important to note that both our system and Clearplay worked on the premise that real funds are used first.

Example

Lets take a £100 deposit with a 100% match bonus of £100; with x30 requirement. Slots only for sake of game weight simplicity (100% weight, 95% average RTP). Game play on Clearplay system would imply that for every £300 wagered, a £10 would be unlocked.

Given that a player is playing slots at 95% RTP, he is expected to lose £15 on every £300 wagered, but receive £10 real in return. This would effectively decrease his real money balance by £5 for every £300 wagered.

This effectively allows the to turn the £100 into real money (wager £3000), and while using the bonus money in the process remain with £50 in their balance.

It works out as a continuous 50% cash back on losses, or if you want to look at it differently, it halfs the margin (i'm a bit suspect about stating the latter one).

The questions that spring to mind now are:

1) What happens if you deplete all your real funds and hit a royal flush with bonus funds and bonus balance increases to £4000? having to wager £300 real for every £10 makes it impossible to fully take out your winnings.

- to answer that I would say that casino is not meant to be a place where you can guarantee your winnings. It completely defeats the purpose of it being 'a gamble'. This does however extend the volume of your deposited funds for a longer play-through experience and an opportunity to hit it big using real money.

For example, re-depositing on time (before depleting real balance) would ensure you always gamble real funds, while sustaining a continuous, ongoing cashback on your volume. That way, whenever you hit big, it's not with bonus and it's not locked in.

2) Is using real funds first the answer? Could something be achieved by shifring the balance priorities so that real money / bonus money is used 50/50 with every bet? Hmmm...

It's a given that above is a wobbly concept for now and a lot needs to be explained and questioned - but I'm on a quest (and I'm sure eventually I will find) a fair acqusition and loyalty award program that does not influence/lock in deposited funds and simultaneously works well without exposing the casino to a host of abuse.

What do you think? Was there a time when you thought to yourself I wish the did so and so? The players are the people who really do know best, so I'm keen to hear opinions.

We're young, we just started and its not too late to change things drastically and we have a host of developers on call that can do this.

What is it that you'd like to see?

Thank you CM & Community
 
Be careful with Bonuses!
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Please check out our Bonus Section that lists the offers given by our Accredited Casinos. No deposit bonuses, welcome bonuses (AKA sign up bonuses [SUBs]), exclusive bonuses, reload bonuses, free spin bonuses...all this and more!

lnspin

Senior Member
webmeister
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Location
WorldWide
Ive Always wanted to see a casino that does not offer any bonuses at all.. Hey you deposit, if you win theres never a problem cashing out.. If you lose, you lose.

Due to no bonuses being given out, i also believe the return % to players can be set higher as your giving less money out.

If the casino wants to throw out a free chip to its better customers, let it be just that a free chip, no wagering, no turnover.
 

Igor82

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Malta
Thanks Inspin,

Regarding fast payouts and fast deposits - any casino that connects them to bonuses is simply playing a fool. One shouldn't influence another.

I like the idea of high RTP, no bonuses. We worked on it a couple of months trying to see whether it would be marketable. I personally think it's an amazing concept.

The problem is that very few providers allow their operators to set the RTP value. Some do - and they can usually be set at 92%, 95% and 98% respectively. Others are just simply at the assigned RTP by the provider.

There's also the issue of table games. To modify the RTP of table/card games one would have to modify the rules creating a whole new set of games. Only big guns such as Betfair have had the resources to do that (Zero Lounge).

It's a brilliant concept - but it would require a partnership between a game supplier and an operator.

Amaya acquiring Inter/Crypto would be in an incredible position to do just this as they will have the experience of two providers and a huge operator.

Hopefully, they'll aim to make a solid step-change and a notable act to put them on the headers and they might do just that :)
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
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Location
Sweden
No matter how many times I read I can't fully understand how it works. I blame the language as usual:p

I make a deposit of $100 and take a matchbonus.
If I win on my own money I can cash out immediately, I get that and that's great.
Will the bonusmoney I havn't played on still be in my account?
Can I never turn that bonusmoney in to real money no matter how much I play on it (if it's still there)?
Can I keep on depositing real money with the same bonus in, to try and finally clear the bonus so it's my money, or do I have to take a new bonus because I have cashed out once?
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
PABinit
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
The clearpay system seems fair but if you already have your own funds in the a/c before you claim a bonus these funds are locked together with your bonus unlike the system at rtg where the bonus and your own funds are segregated. If say, I had $100 in my account and then deposited $50 with a 100% bonus the whole $200 is not withdrawable till you meet wrs. I do not like my funds tied to a bonus when it shouldnt.
 

Igor82

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Malta
Amazing questions

Wow lol, brilliant. :notworthy This is what i was hoping for.

Let's see (this is concept I want us to build so nothing is set in stone) -

Common practice system doesn't let you withdraw more you deposit and forfeit the rest.

Our current system will allow you to withdraw more than you deposited as long as the winning bets were made using your own funds. It will forfeit the bonus until its turned but your real money winnings are withdrawable without any condition.

The MGS Clearplay DOES forfeit the remaining bonus when you choose to withdraw. But it also contributes both real and bonus funds toward the turnover. So lets say you wagered a total of £1500 you would have turned £50 real using the example above. Assuming that you broke even with your real money you would withdraw £150 and forfeit £50.

***********************

Now what I was thinking is limiting turnover to real fund only and also releasing the bonus in £10 increments. I need to have a good think about this but i don't think under that condition there is need to forfeit the rest of the bonus on withdrawal. THis way the bonus works as a slow release cashback :confused: hmmm that got me a bit stumped - will get back to you on it.

Regarding the other two questions they were tied to this one, but there is something worth saying that bonuses do not stack. They don't stack now, and they wouldn't stack if we changed it. If a player has two or more simultaneous bonuses, they get to choose which bonus they want to wager for. the bets placed start contributing to the chosen bonus. The chosen bonus can be swapped around with another at players choice while the wagering is not invalidated. Consider it a 'pause' button.
 

Igor82

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Malta
Segregated funds

The clearpay system seems fair but if you already have your own funds in the a/c before you claim a bonus these funds are locked together with your bonus unlike the system at rtg where the bonus and your own funds are segregated. If say, I had $100 in my account and then deposited $50 with a 100% bonus the whole $200 is not withdrawable till you meet wrs. I do not like my funds tied to a bonus when it shouldnt.

Our system is segregated also. Real money bets go into real money wins and have nothing to do with a bonus. However, if a withdrawal is made the bonus will be invalidated.
 

Igor82

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Malta
No matter how many times I read I can't fully understand how it works. I blame the language as usual:p

I make a deposit of $100 and take a matchbonus.
If I win on my own money I can cash out immediately, I get that and that's great.
Yep.


Will the bonusmoney I havn't played on still be in my account?

Questionable, but I'd imagine if real money is used to turn it over - yes. I need to do the math though.

Can I never turn that bonusmoney in to real money no matter how much I play on it (if it's still there)?

Since real money bets count only, then no. You can increase its balance however - but then with the increase in balance, there is an increase in wagering to unlock it all. The downside of Clearplay (even in its original form) is that it releases the bonus amount in segments, each having its own turnover so by increasing the bonus value, you increase the number of segments needed to be released. It's like a loyalty reward program...

Can I keep on depositing real money with the same bonus in, to try and finally clear the bonus so it's my money, or do I have to take a new bonus because I have cashed out once?

Quite honestly, I think that if we go for "real money" to count toward turnover option then the bonus isn't going to be invalidated at withdrawal (don't hold me to it - need to do the math :)), so you have two options:

1) when wagering your deposited funds you will unlock some of the bonus (turn it into real balance) - if the luck favours you there will be no need to redeposit as unlocked bonus will contribute toward more bonus to be unlocked.

2) If you make large bets or if you hit a losing streak and deplete real funds, then yes - you will need to redeposit to unlock the rest of the bonus - again, using unlocked bonus funds to unlock more bonus in its progress.

---

I'm thinking on my feet now so I'm going to have to run through this all properly :) But good, keep'em coming
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
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I was looking at MGS' Clearplay system (the old-school one). It's an absolutely brilliant system, baring the fact that it was widely abused by various strategies, employed by entire syndicates of players and caused substantial bonus damage to casinos. ooops :p
It's not "abuse" if the players stuck to the rules which the CASINO laid out.
If the casinos had blocked some games and put maximum bet limits on others (by using the SOFTWARE to block unwanted bets), then most of those problems would never had occurred.

Regarding your current system; Personally it sounds like a very fair way of giving bonuses - probably better than what a awful lot of other casinos do these days :thumbsup:

KK
 

Igor82

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Malta
It's not "abuse" if the players stuck to the rules which the CASINO laid out.
If the casinos had blocked some games and put maximum bet limits on others (by using the SOFTWARE to block unwanted bets), then most of those problems would never had occurred.

Regarding your current system; Personally it sounds like a very fair way of giving bonuses - probably better than what a awful lot of other casinos do these days :thumbsup:

KK

Call it 'Advantage Play' then :) Unfortunately, you cant always get the cooperation of the providers - I know this as we developed out platform so we can plug in multiple providers. We haven't been able to get over the stump of controlling the bet value per spin based on our conditions yet. I'm hard at working on the logistics of it though.

Best many operators can hope for is making the exact type of play that isn't allowed clear in the T&C's and making them prominent that also takes away from marketing the offer - a large number of players will get frightened reading a ton of conditions without actually taking the time to understand if what is written is relevant to them. The experienced ones do - but they aren't as widespread as we'd like to believe.

We need the average punters volume to sustain. Advantageous players pray on this and tend to swoop in and ravage the casino bonuses. I'm not saying its right to use it as an excuse to put in vague 'bonus abuse' terminology, but their behaviour is as predatory toward casinos as is casinos not releasing withdrawals for days (for example), waiting for the players to reverse them. We don't have that for instance, and when we do implement it, it'll be a choice of the player himself on whether to have the feature or not.

What I'm trying to say is that predatory behaviour happens on both sides and the genuine casino punter is who gets locked in the crossfire. It's a sad scenario but a reality. Hopefully with the rapid growth of choice of casinos out there and increase in player experience (and these kind of educational communities), its bound to start changing toward the golden middle again.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
It's not "abuse" if the players stuck to the rules which the CASINO laid out.
If the casinos had blocked some games and put maximum bet limits on others (by using the SOFTWARE to block unwanted bets), then most of those problems would never had occurred.

Regarding your current system; Personally it sounds like a very fair way of giving bonuses - probably better than what a awful lot of other casinos do these days :thumbsup:

KK

Hear, hear!

BTW the poll results are looking interesting.
 

ShayDrew

Non-Gambler
Joined
Aug 19, 2010
Location
New Zealand
1) What happens if you deplete all your real funds and hit a royal flush with bonus funds and bonus balance increases to £4000? having to wager £300 real for every £10 makes it impossible to fully take out your winnings.

- to answer that I would say that casino is not meant to be a place where you can guarantee your winnings. It completely defeats the purpose of it being 'a gamble'. This does however extend the volume of your deposited funds for a longer play-through experience and an opportunity to hit it big using real money.

For example, re-depositing on time (before depleting real balance) would ensure you always gamble real funds, while sustaining a continuous, ongoing cashback on your volume. That way, whenever you hit big, it's not with bonus and it's not locked in.

Thank you CM & Community

Personally I don't like the sound of this - it will be open (As it is so different) to people depositing, getting into bonus money, winning big then complaining they cant get their money. And as clear as the terms can be, people are used to one way of bonus's being played and this does sound like more of a comp than a bonus (In the "old" sense of the term) so if you were to go down that path you would need to be very clear with your comms.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts though. :)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Whatever system you decide on in principle should be released for comment, and a challenge laid down to all to "break this" by mathematical and strategic arguments.

You have to think like an advantage player, and what strategies they might come up with to beat the system.

This was the big mistake MGS made with Clearplay. They used long term averages, but did not consider the obvious strategies like an opening bet of the entire balance, which if won was immediately withdrawn and bonus forefeited. It worked because the chances were about 50/50, but for every £100 deposit lost, £200 could be won and withdrawn.

A simple solution might be to JUST run an enhanced cashback program, where every £300 of real money wagered on slots gains enough points to redeem a £10 cashback. There would be no bonus funds available for play, thus removing the majority of "abuse strategies". On average, slots players are still getting £10 back for every £300 wagered, and with no bonus funds in play, there is no reason to worry about restrictions on bet size, games played, etc. A roulette player would just get less than £10 back for £300 wagered, as under the current weighting system, and it would not matter if he put the entire balance on red at the start, for there would not be the leverage from any bonus funds.

This could be an ongoing system and maybe tiered so that players who played more moved up a ladder whereby they got, say, £12 back per £300 instead of £10.

The "free chip" could be "free points", a simple cash gift to players. Other types of promotions could be run that are not about bonuses at all, but about winning cash via extra loyalty points, or prizes based on certain activities, such as biggest payout of the month, most points earned.

The biggest problem would be attracting new players without the traditional SUB, however even this strategy leads to loyal players feeling unappreciated because they never again see an offer like the SUB again, no matter how long they have played, yet see "their" casino giving this offer out to new players with NO track record, whilst loyal players get very little.

Not having an SUB means that players are not having expectations raised at the start of receiving ongoing bonuses, nor are seeing new players getting better treatment.


I know MGS pretty well, so would be able to tell you if any proposed system can be "cracked" by advantage players.
 

Igor82

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Malta
Not having an SUB means that players are not having expectations raised at the start of receiving ongoing bonuses, nor are seeing new players getting better treatment.

I really appreciate the post. This is the kind of constructive feedback I was hoping for. Once question though - excuse my ignorance in terminology - SUB?
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I really appreciate the post. This is the kind of constructive feedback I was hoping for. Once question though - excuse my ignorance in terminology - SUB?


Sign Up Bonus, also called Welcome Bonus. The current marketing ploy used to attract new players, and most likely to attract the advantage player who will take this bonus, but not stick around.
 

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
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I like the 3Dice system.

Small bonus upfront (5% with no WR or restrictions), and you earn comp points as you wager which can be redeemed for real cash once you've earned enough of them, again with no WR or restrictions on the bonus cash. Then at the end of the month they give you a bonus based on your deposits during the last month, with just a 5xWR.

What I really like about the 3Dice system is that it basically transforms the bonus model from big enticements upfront with a load of restrictions attached to them, to smaller but more 'real' bonuses after you've deposited and wagered.

It gives the player good real rewards, encourages player loyalty, and protects the casino from abusers.
 

ChopleyIOM

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I like the idea of high RTP, no bonuses. We worked on it a couple of months trying to see whether it would be marketable. I personally think it's an amazing concept.

The problem is that very few providers allow their operators to set the RTP value. Some do - and they can usually be set at 92%, 95% and 98% respectively. Others are just simply at the assigned RTP by the provider.

That would work for me, any casino advertising 97% RTP slots on the basis of being a 'no bonus casino' would get my custom in a flash.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
I'll pose a couple of questions, just as I might to a CSR when attempting to understand.

I deposit $100, and receive $100 match. I play for quite a long time, and I've now converted $50 of my bonus money, never having dipped into making bets with the bonus funds. I have lost some in the process, and my balance is sitting at $80 cash and $50 bonus.

I hit a bad run, and my balance is now $40, all of it being bonus money.

And I have a $100 hit on a bet with bonus money.

Do I now have a balance of $90 cash and $50 bonus? or is it all bonus? or am I now at $40 cash and back to a $100 bonus?

Scenario two:

I deposit $100 and receive $100 bonus. I bust out from both my real money and from your bonus, only converting $20 of the bonus before busting out. When I next make a deposit, is that previous bonus completely cleared by busting out, or does the wagering carry over?

or I deposit $100 w/ $100 bonus, never dip into bonus, withdraw $150 and forfeit $90, does the $90 continue as wagering required if a new bonus is taken on a subsequent deposit?
 

Igor82

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Malta
That would work for me, any casino advertising 97% RTP slots on the basis of being a 'no bonus casino' would get my custom in a flash.

Yes, however you'd be forced to say goodbye to MGS, Playtech, NetEnt, if i remember right Wagerworks also - i'm not sure about RTG and Crypto, i haven't worked with those. None of those providers allow a casino to set the payout - its one RTP for each game - non negotiable :p
 

KasinoKing

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Yes, however you'd be forced to say goodbye to MGS, Playtech, NetEnt, if i remember right Wagerworks also - i'm not sure about RTG and Crypto, i haven't worked with those. None of those providers allow a casino to set the payout - its one RTP for each game - non negotiable :p
Not true.
Wagerworks and RTG are both known to have different settings the casino can chose from. e.g. Most RTG slots have a 97.5% setting.

I would like to hear your answers to Jasminebed's great questions please!

KK
 

Igor82

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Malta
Thanks Jasmine,

I'm not sure if you're asking in relevance to the 'possible' system or our actual one?

I deposit $100, and receive $100 match. I play for quite a long time, and I've now converted $50 of my bonus money, never having dipped into making bets with the bonus funds. I have lost some in the process, and my balance is sitting at $80 cash and $50 bonus.

That's not possible currently - you would either get the entire 100 out wagering real funds or remain them as bonus. You will be able to do that if we do change.

I hit a bad run, and my balance is now $40, all of it being bonus money.

And I have a $100 hit on a bet with bonus money.

Do I now have a balance of $90 cash and $50 bonus? or is it all bonus? or am I now at $40 cash and back to a $100 bonus?

Scenario doesn't change from any other system in the industry - if you placed 100% of the bet using bonus funds, then entirety of that win is credited into bonus funds - in your example $100.

Scenario two:

I deposit $100 and receive $100 bonus. I bust out from both my real money and from your bonus, only converting $20 of the bonus before busting out. When I next make a deposit, is that previous bonus completely cleared by busting out, or does the wagering carry over?

Carry over to what? If you depleted bonus funds also, there is nothing left (unless I'm missing something)? I'm not sure I understand this part. Can you please clarify what you mean?

or I deposit $100 w/ $100 bonus, never dip into bonus, withdraw $150 and forfeit $90, does the $90 continue as wagering required if a new bonus is taken on a subsequent deposit?

currently: If you deposit $100, don't touch the bonus & win, get $150 out -awarded bonus gets forfeited. New bonus awarded has its own wagering and is not tied into the previous bonus in any way.
potentially: You deposit $100, don't dip into bonus and unlock $10, leaving $90 bonus. You withdraw $150 and now two things may happen:

1) the $90 stays. You wagered enough to get the $10 unlocked and you're free to withdraw it. If you want to unlock more from the $90, you redeposit and continue. If you get the second deposit bonus, you chose which to wager for (as it is now). On the surface it seems rational because if real money must be wagered to unlock the bonus than all we did is create a loyalty point scheme with slow release.

Rather than giving 10 for every 300 wagered though loyalty points we set achievement target (this wasn't the intention when i was looking what we could do - it's just appearing as such) in form of a slow releasing bonus.

Again, looks OK on the surface on things, but i need to see if its abusable and what conditions would need to be placed to avoid the crowd of beatingbonuses etc.

should it prove overly abusable (which i doubt) then the $90 simply gets forfeited. New bonus gets their own wagering and 90 doesn't come into play once its gone.

I'm not sure if above answered your question correctly as i didn't get exactly where you got the $90 from, but i hope one of the two options hit it.

Kindly keep in mind i'm using this as an open forum - id like to know if I'm wrong or if there's a more 'user friendly' way.

I quite like vynilweatherman's post about scrapping bonuses and increase direct in-play cash release (we can also do that) - but i'm weary about losing the vast majority of people who do go after FDB's to try the casino first and then stay if they like the service and speed of payout. We just started and really need the acquisition, especially if we what to set the bar higher. Otherwise we'll just be one of those fleeting casinos that tried to do it differently but failed miserably.

Keep in mind that on here - most of you are seriously pro. You're a minority like it or not :p
 

Igor82

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Malta
Not true.
Wagerworks and RTG are both known to have different settings the casino can chose from. e.g. Most RTG slots have a 97.5% setting.

I would like to hear your answers to Jasminebed's great questions please!

KK

OK, so based on your post I remember wrong about Wagerworks and i never claimed RTG doesn't set theirs. That still leaves you say goodbye to NetEnt, MGS and Playtech.

I'm not 100% that running such a step change brand without having the backing of some quite popular games would get enough volume and quite honestly wouldn't put all my eggs in that one basket betting it would take off.

We did two things: 1) create a multi-provider platform. The point was to have all the favs under one umbrella. and 2) create our own marketing platform so one bonus/ one common wallet is applied to all providers. We succeeded in both.

One thing I can promise you is that if this casino works well - I'll get a brand going in parallel that's slots only, no bonuses and highest RTP possible on whatever provider can set it at :)

I can say MGS is here (currently beta testing - will be live after LGA gives the green light) and others I cant speak about for now - but working on having all the big ones.
 

Igor82

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
Malta
Jasmine, i understood your second question on re-read. No, the wagering left does not carry over into a new bonus. Each bonus should be individual in its own turnover requirement.

KasinoKing - what you suggest is an amazing concept better suited to be done by a big established brand. I personally think its a phenomenal idea: no bonuses, exclusive loyalty rewards (not even a program - leave it to the casino to decide), fast (12-24hr) cashouts and highest payouts that can be set, wherever they can be set.

Problem is I don't see the masses jumping into it two feet first unless someone like Betfair does it (now that'd be a Betfair casino concept lol) - and without the masses high or any RTP is just as risky for the casino as it is for the player. We need vast volume to survive. In conclusion a great concept that needs an established brand cross-selling the players into it to make it work IMHO.
 

ChopleyIOM

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Thanks for taking the time to engage with us all here BET-AT, I for one do appreciate it.

I'm looking at your website now and trying to understand how your bonus system works (referencing the posts you've made here at CM), specifically I'm looking at the Slot Lovers SUB which has a very nice 200% match and a reasonable 35x WR on the bonus amount only.

(For the record, I'd say I'm a 50/50 player when it comes to bonus and non-bonus play. I like bonus play because it extends the playtime and gives a sort of 'safe' environment to try out a large variety of slots, I like non-bonus play because I can play what I want, how I want, and cashout sharpish if I hit big, so I can see 'both sides of the story' as it were.)

So let's say I open an account with you and deposit £250 of real cash, for a £500 match bonus on the Slot Lovers Bonus, which gives me £750 to play with.

I play out of the £250 real cash element of this balance and this contributes towards my wagering, any wins I get go back onto the real cash amount and continue to contribute to the wagering.

However, at 95% RTP the slots are going to chew up this £250 in relatively short order, even at fairly low stakes, so before too long (and long before I come close to meeting the WR) I'll be out of real cash, and will only have £500 bonus funds to play with, which don't contribute anything to the WR whatsoever?

If I understand that system correctly, that's a pretty horrible place to be in as a player, as I'm now required to deposit again (and again....) to slowly unlock that bonus balance.

I appreciate that if I hit big early on I'm able to withdraw my entire real cash balance and forfeit the bonus, but then what was the point of taking a bonus in the first place if that's my mentality as a player?

Personally speaking the reason I take a SUB or any subsequent bonus at a casino is to extend my playtime, I'm prepared to accept I'll probably be doing well to get my deposit back before I meet the WR, but what I feel I'm 'buying' for that is an extended playtime beyond what I'd get with a straight deposit - your bonus system seems to actively work against that, I don't understand who it's designed to appeal to?
 
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