Lucky 247 - bonus terms concerns

[player82]

Lucky Lefty

Thank you for posting here but as the original poster I have still not had a response from you personally.

The casino on this forum has acknowledged the original phrasing was vague and correcting it for future players whilst welcome still leaves me very much out of pocket.

I ask please that you/the casino enter into a constructive conversation on this as I will not simply go away, I have both the resource, the skills and the dedication to take this all the way personally. I believe the initial term was ambigous (which you yourselves have recognised by amending it) under UK contract and consumer law and am prepared to take legal action to secure my funds and the principal if an agreement cannot be reached.

Regards

Matt

 

[Harry_BKK]

Hi all,

Beyond that, it is clear that a number of CM forum members are unhappy with the withdrawal limits on bonus-related winnings. Whilst we are certainly empathetic to anything that might take away from a player’s experience at Lucky247, this term has been the subject of many an internal casino management discussion, and all key parties are satisfied that the inclusion of this term, and said withdrawal limits, do not negatively impact on the vast majority of players’ experiences at the casino. As some of you have highlighted in earlier posts, this term is not isolated to Lucky247, and can be found at many other reputable and popular online casinos. As we assume it is for those other casinos, the term in question has been thought out and applied with justification. Whilst some may not agree with it, the term is unambiguously listed in the casino’s general terms and conditions, and players are consequently well within their rights to (a) elect not to register an account with Lucky247, and/or (b) decline any bonus.

Regards,
Lucky Lefty

Bold 1 ..... Lucky247 offers 5-6 out of 7 days / week a 50% match which is added automatically. There is no opt-in or decline button. So it clearly affects the majority of your players!!!!!

Bold 2...... can you please elaborate? ... what is the justification please????? Players deposit, take a modest bonus and have to go through 40x WR with max. bet limited to 20% of the bonus given. On average in 8 out of 10 cases this ends up in the balance being lost before the WR is finished. So what is your justification really? I can't see one other than improving the casino profits.

Bold 3 ... OK, i can decline, but that only by contacting live support.... did you ever try to contact your live chat... average response time if any at all is about 5 - 7 minutes. Very often nobody answer for 1 hour or longer..... So you are seriously asking your customers to do that????? Provide an opt-out button before one deposits and then i will accept your comment.

I am at Platinum level at your casino, hence, quite often playing at Lucky247, but certainly very unhappy with that clause and also your completely vague and rather empty comments. It has gotten to a stage that i hope, no, i started praying that i won't be winning big when playing with the bonuses and then hit big once i maxed out on the bonus and make my first deposit without one.....ridiculous, really!!!!

 

[player82]

... OK, i can decline, but that only by contacting live support.... did you ever try to contact your live chat... average response time if any at all is about 5 - 7 minutes. Very often nobody answer for 1 hour or longer..... So you are seriously asking your customers to do that????? Provide an opt-out button before one deposits and then i will accept your comment.

Absolutely! Based on the names day or night there seems to be only 2 people (one at a time) that even man the Live Chat

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi all,

Please accept our apologies for not responding sooner.

As most of you are probably already aware, we have been in touch with Casinomeister in this regard, and have already amended the term in question to be less discretionary and, therefore, much less vague. We believe this is a positive step that goes a long way towards rectifying any gaps there may have been with regards to Lucky247 complying with CM’s Link Outdated / Removed.

Beyond that, it is clear that a number of CM forum members are unhappy with the withdrawal limits on bonus-related winnings. Whilst we are certainly empathetic to anything that might take away from a player’s experience at Lucky247, this term has been the subject of many an internal casino management discussion, and all key parties are satisfied that the inclusion of this term, and said withdrawal limits, do not negatively impact on the vast majority of players’ experiences at the casino. As some of you have highlighted in earlier posts, this term is not isolated to Lucky247, and can be found at many other reputable and popular online casinos. As we assume it is for those other casinos, the term in question has been thought out and applied with justification. Whilst some may not agree with it, the term is unambiguously listed in the casino’s general terms and conditions, and players are consequently well within their rights to (a) elect not to register an account with Lucky247, and/or (b) decline any bonus.

That said, and given that we are not intending on amending this term any further, we are open to suggestions on how we may make improvements to the way these terms are communicated to potential players and existing players alike. We do like to think that the terms and conditions are always easy to access, should one wish to read them, but sometimes we may miss something that an experienced online gambler would want or expect.

In the interests of keeping this thread as constructive as possible, which echoes Casinomeister’s sentiments in his last post, please feel free to post any suggestions for improvements. If you are particularly aggrieved with something, we kindly ask you to send us a PM prior to, or instead of, a public post, so that we can attend to it efficiently and confidentially.

Regards,
Lucky Lefty

The phrases "reserve the right" and "at the discretion of..." need to be removed otherwise it's still a vague term, and likely to be unenforceable here in the UK should any player decide to test this in law.

It not a term a player can deliberately breach, unless they are able to control the games such that they don't spin in large wins at the wrong time.

Since the management are not willing to remove this term, it leaves no choice but put it to a legal test under UK consumer law. It also has to be properly communicated to players during any advertisement that takes place within the UK.

If a high street bookie tried to pull a stunt like this there would be a riot in their shop. Where there have been max win rules, they have been of the order of half a million pounds, and tend to apply to accumulator bets rather than single events.

The publicity surrounding this is likely to deter players over the medium to long term as it is a very unusual term still, even though a few other casinos have tried it.

 

[Jono777]

Anyone would think we were playing cards with our mates for dirty old pennies in the back of our garages.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I thought online casinos were ££££ companies ££££ so these penny pinching clauses suggest they've only got a part torn fiver they've 'scrounged' off their mom's in their pockets to pay players out.

I do know in casino operations you have to have a certain 'cash reserve' to basically operate/ stay in business. Over years of play I know 90% of the time players will 'bust' before casinos with this idiotic clause will need to panic and most busts were with the more 'realistic' 30x WR rather than whatever it ends up being these days.

Also the 'live help' reference is being polite, I know the wife has waited closer to 3 hours on more than one occasion!!!

Gonna start an online casino of my own, no T&C's whatsoever apart from all wins over £2.40 will be paid in tokens

 

[hedgehok]

But if we look at the old terms and compare them with the new ones Brianmon posted:

Where a sign-up Bonus has been credited to you, and after meeting all wagering requirements, you will be limited to a maximum withdrawal value of 6 times your first deposit amount and any remaining balance will be forfeited. This clause will only be applied at the discretion of casino management. All progressive wins are exempt from this clause.

Then it has now been changed to

6.17 Where a sign-up or other bonus has been credited to your account, and after meeting all wagering requirements, we reserve the right to limit your withdrawal to a maximum value of 6 times your first deposit amount and any remaining balance will be forfeited. All progressive wins are exempt from this clause.

The only change I can see is that you now include all other bonuses a player can recieve too which means that the rule is worse than before.

''at the discretion of casino management'' and ''we reserve the right'' is the same thing, at least to me.

I guess your casino believe that this is ok as long as the player know about it. Will you then post the rule so they can clearly be seen in all bonus offers or will they stay hidden in the T&C's?

Tiriley I just searched for the bold paragraph and could not find it.

The only thing I was able to find is this under their general T&C:
7.6. Where a sign-up Bonus has been credited to you, and after meeting all wagering requirements, you will be limited to a maximum withdrawal value of 6 times your first deposit amount and any remaining balance will be forfeited. All progressive wins are exempt from this clause.

Seems like they have again changed the position of this term. But at least it seems to be only applied to the sign-up bonus.
Can you find something else which I was overlooking?

 

[fun4all]

Seems like they have again changed the position of this term. But at least it seems to be only applied to the sign-up bonus.
Can you find something else which I was overlooking?

From

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section 6.17

6.17 Where a sign-up or other bonus has been credited to your account, and after meeting all wagering requirements, we reserve the right to limit your withdrawal to a maximum value of 6 times your first deposit amount and any remaining balance will be forfeited. All progressive wins are exempt from this clause

 

[Tirilej]

Interesting!

I wonder which one is correct then.

7.6 or 6.17 Wanna bet on it?

 

[nastyrikard]

Hi guys !

Im almost a Platinum player at lucky247 ( have to earn 1500 more points to get there )

This thread got me worried, so I contacted livechat at lucky247. And as some people here already have said, their livesupport is total crap. Unable to answer simple questions. So after 30 minutes i called their callcentre.

Ive made over 1000 USD deposits last month, luckily my withrawals has been over 1800 USD ( They accepted my withrawals even if i withrew 700 usd on a 100 usd deposit )

My first deposit there was only 50 usd back in 2013 and my standard deposit nowdays is 100 USD. And i was worried that if i take a bonus and win, they could limit my withrawal to 300 USD IF i take a bonus.

I wanted this confirmed, that if i deposit 100 USD and take a 50 usd bonus, they could limit my withrawal to 300 USD if i win big.

The agent confirmed this, " we have the right to limit youre withrawal to 6x youre first deposit you ever made with us.

Why would I deposit 100 usd and the casino have the right to limit my withrawal to just 300 usd ? CRAZY !

I think this is the end for me and lucky247, its an outrageus term. At the same time i was talking to him I could hear loud and clear in the backround that alot of agents where laughing like crazy. So at least they seem to be having fun at work...

Thanks guys for making this thread.

 

[Tirilej]

What this casino are doing, and a few others also is chrystal clear to me.

To be accredited you are not allowed to do this: Must not confiscate winnings for vague & unclear reasons, such as "irregular playing patterns" or "bonus abuse", without specific T&C violations.

They use this rule is instead. Now if they see that someone are playing in a way they don't like, like the OP obviously did, they used this 6x deposit rule.
It's against what they call an advantage player. I call it a lucky winner

But this is also in the rules for being accredited: Must not implement terms that can be construed as "unfair" towards the player.

Since they now have streched this rules as to be about all bonuses offered to the player I think this last rule for accreditation should set in.

 

[Dinahnana]

What this casino are doing, and a few others also is chrystal clear to me.

To be accredited you are not allowed to do this: Must not confiscate winnings for vague & unclear reasons, such as "irregular playing patterns" or "bonus abuse", without specific T&C violations.

They use this rule is instead. Now if they see that someone are playing in a way they don't like, like the OP obviously did, they used this 6x deposit rule.
It's against what they call an advantage player. I call it a lucky winner

But this is also in the rules for being accredited: Must not implement terms that can be construed as "unfair" towards the player.

Since they now have streched this rules as to be about all bonuses offered to the player I think this last rule for accreditation should set in.

I agree with you 100% Tirliej. I have only played there once about last year but yesterday I closed my account with them because of this whole fiasco. I also found the rep's stance in this thread to be a bit arrogant (he could have worded his response a bit better).

Putting a 6x cap on all deposits with a bonus involved based on your first deposit is absolutely ridiculous and should land this casino in the Reservation list at the very least.

 

[nuera007]

After reading this topic im gonna close my account at lucky247

 

[vinylweatherman]

Their constant screw-ups in trying to reword this term has left things as clear as mud. They are losing players over this, just as I warned would happen.

I am damn sure they initially had this in order to slip in a "spirit of the bonus" term under the radar, but got called out on it. They resisted removing discretionary language so that they could STILL have it as a "spirit of the bonus" term.

Finally, they have this:-

7.6. Where a sign-up Bonus has been credited to you, and after meeting all wagering requirements, you will be limited to a maximum withdrawal value of 6 times your first deposit amount and any remaining balance will be forfeited. All progressive wins are exempt from this clause.

This is at least clear, however it remains to be seen whether it is "fair" under UK law, and it's not just about the term itself, but where in the contract it is placed. Given that this is specifically related to the sign up bonus, it should be a term under "sign up bonus terms and conditions", and not appear elsewhere.

In trying to tuck it away in a less obvious place, the general terms, they have made EXISTING players worry that this term might be applied to their regular loyalty bonuses.

Whilst they now have a clear and unambiguous version of this rule in 7.6, it has come too late, the bad PR has cost them players. It also puts them at a marketing disadvantage compared to casinos that don't have such terms, and for the UK that is pretty much every UK licenced casino. As an important term, it will probably have to be quoted in all their advertisements. The ASA will decide on this if someone makes a specimen complaint about a specific ad that misleads potential players into believing that they can take the SUB and win more than 6x their deposit.

 

[Tirilej]

Tiriley I just searched for the bold paragraph and could not find it.

The only thing I was able to find is this under their general T&C:
7.6. Where a sign-up Bonus has been credited to you, and after meeting all wagering requirements, you will be limited to a maximum withdrawal value of 6 times your first deposit amount and any remaining balance will be forfeited. All progressive wins are exempt from this clause.

Seems like they have again changed the position of this term. But at least it seems to be only applied to the sign-up bonus.
Can you find something else which I was overlooking?

I couldn't understand why there was different rules posted but 6.17 is for uk players that includes all bonuses.
The other that now remove all winnings for sign up bonuses over 6x their deposit is for the rest of the world 7.6.

 

[brianmon]

Their constant screw-ups in trying to reword this term has left things as clear as mud. They are losing players over this, just as I warned would happen.

I am damn sure they initially had this in order to slip in a "spirit of the bonus" term under the radar, but got called out on it. They resisted removing discretionary language so that they could STILL have it as a "spirit of the bonus" term.

Finally, they have this:-



This is at least clear, however it remains to be seen whether it is "fair" under UK law, and it's not just about the term itself, but where in the contract it is placed. Given that this is specifically related to the sign up bonus, it should be a term under "sign up bonus terms and conditions", and not appear elsewhere.

In trying to tuck it away in a less obvious place, the general terms, they have made EXISTING players worry that this term might be applied to their regular loyalty bonuses.

Whilst they now have a clear and unambiguous version of this rule in 7.6, it has come too late, the bad PR has cost them players. It also puts them at a marketing disadvantage compared to casinos that don't have such terms, and for the UK that is pretty much every UK licenced casino. As an important term, it will probably have to be quoted in all their advertisements. The ASA will decide on this if someone makes a specimen complaint about a specific ad that misleads potential players into believing that they can take the SUB and win more than 6x their deposit.

Nothing has changed in the UK version of the T&C
This has been copied and pasted directly from the UK T&C at xxx.lucky247.com/uk-online-casino/terms-and-conditions?

6.17 Where a sign-up or other bonus has been credited to your account, and after meeting all wagering requirements, we reserve the right to limit your withdrawal to a maximum value of 6 times your first deposit amount and any remaining balance will be forfeited. All progressive wins are exempt from this clause.

and clause 7.6 doesn't exist in the UK version

 

[vinylweatherman]

Nothing has changed in the UK version of the T&C
This has been copied and pasted directly from the UK T&C at xxx.lucky247.com/uk-online-casino/terms-and-conditions?

6.17 Where a sign-up or other bonus has been credited to your account, and after meeting all wagering requirements, we reserve the right to limit your withdrawal to a maximum value of 6 times your first deposit amount and any remaining balance will be forfeited. All progressive wins are exempt from this clause.

and clause 7.6 doesn't exist in the UK version

If this is the UK only version, then it is 100% judged under UK law. They could be in for a nasty surprise here, and they can't claim this was a general term that had been written without regard to the peculiarities of UK law. The clearer "no ifs no buts" straight forward 6x cap for everyone is more likely to be OK under UK law than any of the BS "we reserve the right".

Whilst a company can "reserve the right" to refuse to do business with a consumer, it can't "reserve the right" to vary the contract unilaterally half way through just because things are not going the way they expected.

UK consumer law is set to get even stronger this month, and again in the Autumn.

 

[spintee]

So lets get this straight and can you confirm any one,

Where a sign-up or other bonus has been credited to your account, So any bonus let it be 50% than only x6 can be withdrawn?

 

[player82]

Great to see the community voting with their feet here in response to unfair terms and bad service

As the original poster just an update despite posting here in response to the Rep still no word from him here or otherwise. Determined to exhaust all reasonable options before referral to ECOGRA I phoned the Casino yesterday and after 30 minutes speaking to an operator who failed to expand upon the "we did it because we could" theme I uncovered something of interest. The phone operators I was told are not empowered to act on issues such as this because they are not employees of Lucky 247 they do not speak for the Casino as they are just a contracted call centre in South Africa this I think goes some way to explain the customer service woes many here have mentioned.

I'm sure this is not that unusual but the real frustration is that Lucky 247 continue to hide behind these people and won't engage me on any level despite me having been nothing but reasonable (I incredibly have yet to raise my voice or use any inappropriate language). I was told that the Manager had gone home at 5pm (alright for some) and would call me today I have been with my phone all day and nothing, nothing at all.

I realise I am new here but ask as much as any newbie can for you all to rise up and demand this Casino lose it's accreditation we need to send a message to the industry that on the odd occasion we beat the odds that they honour the business and don't exercise these vague discretional terms.

Thanks all, you're great

M

 

[spintee]

Great to see the community voting with their feet here in response to unfair terms and bad service

As the original poster just an update despite posting here in response to the Rep still no word from him here or otherwise. Determined to exhaust all reasonable options before referral to ECOGRA I phoned the Casino yesterday and after 30 minutes speaking to an operator who failed to expand upon the "we did it because we could" theme I uncovered something of interest. The phone operators I was told are not empowered to act on issues such as this because they are not employees of Lucky 247 they do not speak for the Casino as they are just a contracted call centre in South Africa this I think goes some way to explain the customer service woes many here have mentioned.

I'm sure this is not that unusual but the real frustration is that Lucky 247 continue to hide behind these people and won't engage me on any level despite me having been nothing but reasonable (I incredibly have yet to raise my voice or use any inappropriate language). I was told that the Manager had gone home at 5pm (alright for some) and would call me today I have been with my phone all day and nothing, nothing at all.

I realise I am new here but ask as much as any newbie can for you all to rise up and demand this Casino lose it's accreditation we need to send a message to the industry that on the odd occasion we beat the odds that they honour the business and don't exercise these vague discretional terms.

Thanks all, you're great

M

To be accredited, Will not use outsourced support. Player support must be in-house.

 

[Casinomeister]

I was in Spain last week, so I didn't have a chance to follow up on this. I'm in the process of doing that now.

 

[spintee]

Any one else noticed the amount of emails being sent? Minimum of one a day, I do not mind 1 -2 a week or for special bonus but this is taking the pi$$, easily 10 a week

 

[Jono777]

Yes mate.

Daily (at least) from Lucky 247

100+ a week if you count ALL casinos (mostly CR)

The main e-mail I get from 247 is the '50 FS for verifying your account' (which I did the day I made my one and only deposit )

 

[bowki]

I really cant believe whats going on with ALL MG Download Casinos in the last months. They try everything they can to make me quit playing at their casinos. I love the client and the games and played for years only MG. But nowadays there is not a single one left to compete with the excellent multiprovider platforms.

This 6x max rule is the worst i have seen in a long time and i will not play at any of this places wit that rule again.

 

[spintee]

I really cant believe whats going on with ALL MG Download Casinos in the last months. They try everything they can to make me quit playing at their casinos. I love the client and the games and played for years only MG. But nowadays there is not a single one left to compete with the excellent multiprovider platforms.

This 6x max rule is the worst i have seen in a long time and i will not play at any of this places wit that rule again.

I agree why are casino trying to make things worse, Especially with all the decent multi providers and quick withdraws, Free spins with no wager,

I must admit I have come across the 6x withdraw a long time back across some sites but this was first deposit only, I believe now after reading somebodys post that they adding this to all deposit bonus except U.K,

The rule is a disgrace and as bad as the max 20k withdrawal month from progressive Jackpots from sites,

I certainly will not be entertaining any sites with such rules, I can under stand a cap on no deposit bonus or free spins, But puting a cap when using your own funds is a different story

 

[hedgehok]

I agree why are casino trying to make things worse, Especially with all the decent multi providers and quick withdraws, Free spins with no wager,

I must admit I have come across the 6x withdraw a long time back across some sites but this was first deposit only, I believe now after reading somebodys post that they adding this to all deposit bonus except U.K,

The rule is a disgrace and as bad as the max 20k withdrawal month from progressive Jackpots from sites,

I certainly will not be entertaining any sites with such rules, I can under stand a cap on no deposit bonus or free spins, But puting a cap when using your own funds is a different story

Please do your research before criticising. It's ok to blame them for bad terms but don't be opportunistic.
You believe wrong. I will summarise shortly:

The discussed term is:

for the UK:
6.17 Where a sign-up or other bonus has been credited to your account, and after meeting all wagering requirements, we reserve the right to limit your withdrawal to a maximum value of 6 times your first deposit amount and any remaining balance will be forfeited. All progressive wins are exempt from this clause.

for the "rest":
7.6 Where a sign-up Bonus has been credited to you, and after meeting all wagering requirements, you will be limited to a maximum withdrawal value of 6 times your first deposit amount and any remaining balance will be forfeited. All progressive wins are exempt from this clause.

The term for the UK is vague ("reserve the right") and should violate one of the principles for the accredited casinos "Must not confiscate winnings for vague & unclear reasons, such as "irregular playing patterns" or "bonus abuse", without specific T&C violations."


CM has contacted them so they amended the term for the "rest" but the uk-term is still vague. Probably they just forgot to change this term for the UK. At least I don't see a reason to have this specific term for the UK.