Locked Account at Royal Vegas & Vegas Towers

[bb1webs]

Hi all,

I know this is not a popular angle here at CM's.

i think he does an excellent job trying to mitigate .... what are sometimes nearly impossible situations.

the one thing I've learned in my years on the net is you get what you ask for.

I have never advertised for bonus chasers .. in fact in the past .. and the Prof will back this up as he and Cappy just recently were ribbing me about running ads that stated clearly .. there is nothing here for bonus seekers.

So I have little sympathy for casinos running bonus offers. They set themselves up for just such controversy .... attract players seeking to beat the bonus situation .. and then want to cry when it happens.

I'm surely not saying they don't have legit reasons for this .... but my point is ... don't make bonus offers .... instead concentrate on player service and fast payouts without hassle to those who come in seeking entertainment via gambling with their own money .... and there's never reason to have these situations in the first place.

but rather than seek to be a quality establishment where they can build a rep that NEVER has such situations. .... rediculous playthru requirements (etc) that literally in many cases take a rocket scientist to figure out .... as simple ...... you bet your money .... you win the bet .. . you get paid the amount won ..... in timely fashion ....and there's never reason for this crap and IF there ever comes a time you didn't get paid, locked out etc .... there's only one place to blame .. the casino.

You laid down the money .... if you won.... you get paid. none of this figuring out whether they are "advantage players, bonus chasers .... etc".

Seriously .. if you've got to be worried about the bonus stuff ... maybe you shouldn't be gambling in the first place. It is an entertainment ...... where the games are set up to beat you more than not ....... so suck it up and take it like a man or don't gamble.

There are plenty of free places to gamble for fun or somtimes prizes.

You play to pay ...... you deserve to be paid when winning. You enter into some kind of situation that is made to make the deal look sweeter ..... and then when the small print in the deal comes back to bite you in the ass .... people act surprised.

well guess what? its made to set you up in a situation where you're very, very unlikely to meet the requirements to ever actually cash out.

Not saying that is the case with FL. but truth is ... that's the goal for most casinos when they offer these deals that look so good upfront ..... because they know you'll never meet the playthru requirements ....... win the fight with the man-eating alligator ..... to ever be in a position to actually have the money rightfully owed to you.

Most have T&Cs that basically say their word is the end all... if they so choose to fall back on that term.

Wake up and realize the saying you don't get something for nothing is as true today as it ever was.

I leave this noting that what I've written is not the case in every scenario. Just food for thought that any logical person can take into consideration and realize this is likely the case.

Frankly I don't know how CM can stand to deal with this year in and year out .. when even he admits ..... he doesn't do the bonus thing. A wise man for certain.


well I came over to check the situation out when I heard the rumors of the basis of this thread. and probably over stepped .. and certainly over simplified my post. but the core of what I'm saying is not without merit.

I hope all can appreciate I posted this as a perspective .... and not as an accusation toward any player or casino in particular.

thanks for allowing my say.

in closing . . my point is that it is unlikely any account would be closed if it had always denied any kind of bonus offer.

 

[lojo]

It might get lost in the fray but I will probably respond to your earlier response tomorrow, JerryLee.
In toto you have good insights, but you will get my ear only if you quit calling people cheaters before the facts are in. Casinos are not the enemy and players are not the enemy. Some casinos suck and some players suck. I've already given my opinion of a certain 'class' of player. You seem to be in a class by yourself here and, at least with me, your posts would be more meaningful if they weren't so adverse and personal sometimes. Please use your knowledge and experience to benefit all of us, as you often do.

 

[casinocide]

Nobody says it like JerryLee!

I am very happy to read this. You got burned cbe2869 and every bonus abuser's frivilous PAB should be rejected immediately.

Hey Jerry all I do is abuse the s*** out of promotions all day long. Not only that, I'm getting pretty efficient at it. What kind of fraud/cheating does that make me guilty of? Just curious.

The only thing that sucks for you and the casinos is that serial promotions abusers like me who have been at it a while almost never have denied cash outs. In fact there's not a thing you could ever do to stop players like me other than go out of business or stop offering bonuses, but then who the heck would want to play online. I mean no one's gonna deposit money with a one room web operator run out of some wobbly third world poverty center like Costa Rica unless they have some serious enticement.

O no es que usted mismo es una "puta de bonos" diciendo tales necidades?

 

[Casinomeister]

Admin Note:

No more personal jabs, okay?

 

[Vesuvio]

I'm not above utilizing a bonus, and i do use them for various reasons. But if I had to rely on 'manipulating' the house edge to win over time, I would stop playing.

There's no way of winning long-term without bonuses. It's your personal choice if you only want to use bonuses when they're low-risk, but I hope you can accept others might feel differently.

That aside, I guess my point is that bonuses are offered in the spirit of fair play; to attract a beginner and to introduce a casino to the seasoned player. That's not so hard to fathom.

What's fair play got to do with anything? Bonuses are offered to attract deposits - casinos know that with the usual wagering requirements any money deposited will be lost. In fact even without a bonus almost all money deposited will be lost.

Fortune Lounge make a point of bonus hunters having no intention to return to the casino (though of course they would if there was anything offered to make it worth their while!), but I'm sure the most common behaviour of a "bona fide" player is to deposit, lose, get angry and never return to that paticular casino. Strangely FL don't mind these players, whatever their intentions.

Technically They must adhere to the terms to be considered a fair casino (group) but for those players who do not play by the spirit of the offer, there is the caveat.

Technically you shouldn't kill people Again, "spirit" of the offer!?

Boo hoo. Suck it up. It's in the terms. You read them.

Actually I can't even find any "bonus abuse" term in the Fortune Lounge terms. All Royal Vegas seem to have, for example, is the following:

"We may refuse to register you as a Player or elect to deregister and exclude you or suspend you as a Player from the Casino at any time and for any reason whatsoever." Followed by something saying they can take deposits, if they feel like it. If you're going to take such terms seriously, rather than relying on a casino group being more or less reputable, you wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. Is that your recommendation?

A rogue casino would act like a rogue casino. It looks to me, with what I can see here, that these guys just did a knee jerk thing and they're in damage control mode right now.

Yep, rogue is as rogue does. There's no knee jerk reaction - FL aren't a newly-opened operation with good intentions getting burnt. They know how the business works and they know exactly what they're doing.

And now some personal opinion for people who take full advantage of every bonus offered by reputable casinos and don't patronize the establishments that offered them. Quit ruining it for the rest of us, huh? Thanks.

How does it ruin anything for you? You're free to gamble and lose without bonuses to your heart's content - no casino's going to stop you.

 

[Simmo!]

My views on signup bonuses are probably well known: they cause more damage to the industry than they do good and the sooner we are rid of them the better.

But that aside, if a player serially uses bonuses to try and win, and plays within the terms & conditions, then that is perfectly fair. cbe2869 and bbs1 are spot on: if a casino offers a bonus promotion, and players stick to the terms, then they should pay out. It's quite simple. Either they are a legitimate business, or they are not.

Bonus "abusing" is fraudulent and bonus "hunting" is fair - 2 totally different beasts and we've covered that one on several occasions. This one sounds like a hunting expedition to me and it would be very, erm, "disappointing", to see FL wriggle out if that turns out to be the case IMO.

 

[cyprean]

No more personal jabs, okay?

Guys let's to try to keep the conversation civilized. If someone flames you, keep your cool and ignore them. Let's try to focus on the real issue here and not on sidelines.

Remember many players are interested in the outcome of this process. So please do not derail this thread.

 

[freni126]

eCOGRA ruled in my favor...

A few months ago I had an issue with 7 Sultans Casino. I had followed the T&C, but I will admit that it was obvious that I was just chasing the bonus. I made a big bet at Baccarat using mostly bonus funds, won the bet and requested a withdrawal of the cash balance (not even trying to clear the WR and the bonus balance). I understand that this is not the way the casino wants their customers to behave and that they will lose in the long run if many players play like this. Then again... I did follow the T&C they had at the time.

The account was locked shortly after. This was something I was aware of could happen, but it was a risk I was willing to take.
Well, to make the story a bit shorter.. I contacted eCOGRA with little hope of actually getting my money out. To my surprise eCOGRA actually ruled in my favor as I hadn't breached any clause in the T&C and 7 Sultans paid up.

I post this to give you guys that have money locked in some encouragement..


This happened several months ago. Players have been playing this way for a long time and the casino must have been aware of it all this time... so why didn't they just change their T&C when they first saw the problem?

I am not a bonus abuser. To abuse a bonus you would need to do something that is not allowed (betting both red and black or creating multiple accounts) if you ask me. I do take advantage of casinos offering bonuses though.. for me that is a huge difference! I am sure most of the players that had their accounts locked had been playing like me.. taking advantage of the bonus and even if you follow the T&C doing so you must have calculated with the risk of this happening? We all knew that this behavious is frowned upon by the casino and we still did it... the ROI by far beat the risk of having your funds confiscated so most of the people whining here have little right to do so (even if I know you have not done anything breaching T&C).

 

[Vesuvio]

We all knew that this behaviour is frowned upon by the casino and we still did it... the ROI by far beat the risk of having your funds confiscated so most of the people whining here have little right to do so (even if I know you have not done anything breaching T&C).

I haven't seen much whining - just complaints and stating the fact that this is rogue behaviour from the FL group. I know if I walk around certain areas of certain cities I might get attacked (so it's a conscious choice to go there) but it doesn't mean the police can ignore the crime, especially if the guilty party openly admits what they've done.

Anyway, going to eCOGRA and not giving up is good advice.

p.s. yep, I know the problem here is the absence of any real police, not to mention laws!

 

[Casinomeister]

...I post this to give you guys that have money locked in some encouragement...

Thanks, I also want to remind everyone that there is player fraud involved as well.

So far, I have 12 complaints that are being forwarded for review. One has been identified as fraud, and as soon as this has been confirmed, I'll be letting you know who it is.

General observation: all complaints are from new members here who have signed up within the last week. No oldtimers, and I know there are a number of regular members who play bonuses heavily. Why haven't these accounts been locked?

As soon as I have more information, I'll let you know what's up.

 

[Casinomeister]

Hey Vesuvio - have you checked your FL accounts recently?

 

[dominique]

I have just read this whole thread for the first time. It's kind of interesting to read a volatile thread in it's entirety, instead of feeding off an individual post that one may or may not agree with, one ends up with an overall impression. I need to do it like that more often...

One thing that is stated repeatedly and that I totally agree with is that casinos really should reward repeat players generously instead of throwing large bonuses at new players.

Other than that, I get the distinct impression that there was a ring of players communally defrauding the casino and the casino decided to do some house cleaning. In that process, some innocents got caught up and had their accounts closed either because they engaged in similair play or because they fit some other pattern that was singled out.

In the brick and mortar world it's called "profiling". It's generally bad practice but then the casinos have no way to actually meet with you. All they have is behavior patterns to compare.

Fraudulent player syndicates hurt everyone, but most of all they hurt other players.

Because of them innocent players get caught in the net when the necessary house cleaning takes place.

Because of them we have ridiculous wagering requirements.

Because of them we have T&Cs that take a lawyer to be understood, singling out this game, that game and the other and attaching special requirements to it.

Fraud syndicates need to be outed - for the player's sake if nothing else. It is unfortunate if the investigation gets messy, so now we need to sift through it and clean it up.

Pitch your PABs.

Re. the affiliate sector: while we work in silence as usual, we are definitely also pursuing this through our channels.

This industry is largely unregulated, and we all need to self police. IMO that's what Casinomeister is all about, so let's sort it out.

 

[Vesuvio]

Hey Vesuvio - have you checked your FL accounts recently?

Lol, I was just going to post after reading your previous post. I haven't checked as I played at FL a long time ago (before this particular approach to bonuses was applicable) and don't have any incentive to return there, but I haven't received any e-mails, so I'm guessing the accounts are probably still open. I wouldn't bother PABing even if they were closed as I have no problem whatsoever with a casino closing accounts if they don't want particular players. They just need to pay out balances (including winnings) first.

Not many old timers are likely to complain as they presumably played the sign-ups at FL a long time ago (in brighter times ).

 

[Vesuvio]

Other than that, I get the distinct impression that there was a ring of players communally defrauding the casino and the casino decided to do some house cleaning. In that process, some innocents got caught up and had their accounts closed either because they engaged in similair play or because they fit some other pattern that was singled out.

What do you mean by defrauding and what do you mean by fradulent player syndicates? Does playing bonuses in a way that more or less gives you the best chance of winning count as fraud? Is it a syndicate if I play in the same way as other people because I've independently (or through reading a forum) come up with the same approach?

Or let's say some people live close to me. Is it a problem if I suggest to a friend how he could play at on-line casinos and actually have a good chance of winning?

Either there's proven fraud - false IDs, credit-card fraud, using the same IP or whatever, or there isn't. If there isn't you have to pay the player, though of course you're free to profile and bar anyone you like from future play.

 

[dominique]

What do you mean by defrauding and what do you mean by fradulent player syndicates?

This varies, and if it didn't, they would be unsuccessful.

But it has nothing to do with using bonuses to increase your bankroll. IMO that's what they are there for.

(BYW I don't want to use the word "bonus abuse" ever, it has a different meaning for everyone and is really almost a joke. )

I used to be a "bonus hunter" myself, and actually my site grew on that soil. Back then it was simple, there were no or low wagering requirements and in BJ you always had an edge if you got a good bonus and played proper basic strategy.

So I am not talking about that at all. If you offer a bonus, it's a given people will try to make the best of it. That's the whole attraction. ( Note that today I would not even touch them myself, too annoying trying to meet the requirements anymore, too many possible winning cashouts missed. But that's my personal preference, they just impair my player experience anymore.)

Fraud is defined legally like this:

1. intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right

2. an act of deceiving or misrepresenting

3. a person who is not what he or she pretends to be

Fraud is criminal. It means lying about who you are or scamming people out of money by pretending something is a fact when you know it's not.

It has nothing to do with bonuses really, they are coincidental.

If a casino would post here exactly how each instance of fraud was committed, you would have all sorts of people running off to try it on some other casino, so understandably they can't do that. It's like handing out an instruction manual on how to commit fraud.

 

[Casinomeister]

...Not many old timers are likely to complain as they presumably played the sign-ups at FL a long time ago (in brighter times ).

This thread is reminiscent of the Bellerock thread that you were involved with last summer. There were three player sydicates (UK, Canada, and Europe) that created a crapload of bogus accounts. There is a chance we are looking at the same sort of thing here. It's taking time to go through the locked accounts, and the players who have submitted their complaints through me will have an answer soon.

 

[NextToYou]

General observation: all complaints are from new members here who have signed up within the last week. No oldtimers, and I know there are a number of regular members who play bonuses heavily. Why haven't these accounts been locked?

Because they are oldtimers here, it also means that they are oldtimers in casinos as well and have played these casino sign-up bonuses a long time ago (like last summer or earlier). And it looks like this current action by FL group only goes back to sign-ups somewhere like October and after that. Pretty simple.

 

[gamerkip]

No Email Respons From Fortune Lounge

Does anybody else has problems with fortune lounge not responding at emails concerning their recent locking of players

Text in Red is original first message
Text in blue is original second message. I use gmail, which saves messages already send. No problem to mail my message again with some extra comments about how rude the casino behaviour is. I mean, every email they conclude with this statement: "Please feel free to contact us again should you have any further queries." Bad Fortune Lounge...very bad...!

Hello,

Yesterday I emailed the casino helpdesk. You finished your respons with the automessage "Please feel free to contact us again should you have any further queries."
I contacted the casino again with a replay you can find below, but I did not yet receive an answer back. I have real money concerns so I would wish to have an answer to my mail fast!

If I bet my money and lose you keep it. If I bet my money and win then I have commited "bonus abuse" and you keep it. This is a win-win situation for the casino, an outstanding way to treat your players and the best way to damage your reputation! By not answering my email which I by now posted on a forum-topic on www.casinomeister.com you are breaking down your entire reputation! And it seems I am not the only one!

Don't get rude by not answering mail. You are rude enough by not letting me play!

Still giving you nice regards,

Roberto

Original Message Below:


Hello,

If you offer bonuses players will take you up on them and try to win. It's a game as you try to make the players take you up on them and lose, but the players certainly aren't abusing the casinos! If you don't want a player to use all the different bonusus take down this webpage!!

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I just played smart, be dubbeling up once and wanting to play through the playthrough requirements after a succesfull hit! This is not called "Promotional misuse" like you are saying. This is playing by YOUR term & conditions! If you are concerned about people wagering entire bonus & deposit on a lowrisk game like blackjack/baccarat etc change the terms & conditions to exclude this!

It should not take too much intelligence to work out a system to prevent this while still having a bonus that gives honest players a chance to play the games.

For example put a clause in that says that no wager greater than a certain value (maybe something like $20 on a 100% match up to $100 bonus) can be done while playing with bonus.

Locking accounts of players you don't care to have at your casinos is fine. Do what you want. But, refuse the players before they make a deposit! Not after the played and won something! You don't give money back to playes who lost I assume(I lost some money an other accounts), so you have no right to ban me now I won something! Refusing to give players(me) no apportunity to meet your terms is fraud! (This term you are referring me to( Outdated URL (Invalid) ) is a "we can do whatever we like" term and is the sure sign of a rogue) And btw, you are referring me to a casino at which I am not even registered! Do your homework better or take more time to look into your database to see where I am registered!

I still prefer to be unlocked, so that I can play. If somehow this is still impossible I want my deposit and winnings cashed-out.


Still, with kind regards and Goodday,

Roberto

 

[Casinomeister]

Because they are oldtimers here, it also means that they are oldtimers in casinos as well and have played these casino sign-up bonuses a long time ago (like last summer or earlier). And it looks like this current action by FL group only goes back to sign-ups somewhere like October and after that. Pretty simple.

Actually, it goes way further back than October. I'll have more info on this later if you really want to know.

 

[Casinomeister]

GamerKip - you need to PAB. Thank you.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Poker

I am concerned about the approach to the POKER account of cbe2869. POKER is completely different to the casino, and they profit from the rake, not players' lost bet. If it is just a case of "bonus abuse", they should not lock an account where the player is actively depositing and playing in a proper manner, UNLESS this is a case of TRUE FRAUD, rather than merely having played "too cleverly", yet fully within T & C.
It's just as bad as an hotel deciding you had stolen something from your room 6 months ago, and finding that the credit card you then used is still active, and just taking the money without allowing you the opportunity to be legally found guilty of theft.

FL should beware that if this locking of cbe2869's poker account causes them to lose sums in other unrelated poker rooms, (which is actually quite likely once they hear he was locked from one), they have defamed his character as a fraudster, so they had better have something more than "bonus abuse" on him.

For Casinomeister, "a crapload of accounts" from a few players is FRAUD, not mere "bonus abuse", as they have benefited from more bonuses that the one per person per casino allowed, and have had to misrepresent their personal information in order to do this. I am sure we are all interested in how many of these claims (if any), are an attempt to misuse this forum in order to further the cause of the fraud, and how many represent players who have done nothing but win by using a mathematical strategy rather than blindly wagering on games.

I doubt publishing the exact fraud methods will do too much damage now that the casinos know how to catch them. These methods have most likely been posted on the net in any case, perhaps on a subscription based site. I have seen a few forums that have closely guarded "private VIP" areas for select players, and "advantage play" is discussed openly in the public areas. I have no doubt that fraud is discussed in the private areas, probably methods to get multiple accounts past the security checks.

 

[NextToYou]

Actually, it goes way further back than October. I'll have more info on this later if you really want to know.

Maybe you are right, heh. I havent received any emails, and didnt have any money in any FL accounts, so I have been just an observer in this case (I feel very bad for people who have lost money because of having money on their accounts in closure time and this kind of a rogue behaviour makes me angry overall).

Out of curiosity, I just decided to take a look at one of my FL accounts, where I remember for sure being an overall winner and it looks like its locked too. I remember gaining while playing with sign-up bonus in this particular casino (last fall, maybe September), but I have also played after that at least once without any bonus (I was lucky though and made a little win that time too in this particular casino).

Then I tested another FL group casino account of mine and it is not locked. I am not sure if I have been an overall loser there or not, because I dont keep records of my play. I have played there also more than one session, maybe about three different times.

I dont have any reason to complain or PAB or anything else, because I didnt have any money on this locked account, and there are many other Microgaming casinos with same games to choose for me. This could be a good time for other Microgaming based casino groups to get some new customers from FL.

 

[cbe2869]

I am concerned about the approach to the POKER account of cbe2869. POKER is completely different to the casino, and they profit from the rake, not players' lost bet. If it is just a case of "bonus abuse", they should not lock an account where the player is actively depositing and playing in a proper manner, UNLESS this is a case of TRUE FRAUD, rather than merely having played "too cleverly", yet fully within T & C.
It's just as bad as an hotel deciding you had stolen something from your room 6 months ago, and finding that the credit card you then used is still active, and just taking the money without allowing you the opportunity to be legally found guilty of theft.

FL should beware that if this locking of cbe2869's poker account causes them to lose sums in other unrelated poker rooms, (which is actually quite likely once they hear he was locked from one), they have defamed his character as a fraudster, so they had better have something more than "bonus abuse" on him.

They do not have anything on me other than what they may consider "bonus abuse" in the casino. It is definitely not fraud though. I am not a member of any ring nor do I have an army of garden gnomes with accounts. This may be a problem though as I do have money at a couple of other Microgaming poker rooms that are unrelated to Fortune Lounge. That would really make me ill. I have submitted a PAB as well as complaints to eCOGRA and the Kahnawake Gaming Commission.

 

[ogpaper]

There were three player sydicates (UK, Canada, and Europe) that created a crapload of bogus accounts.

Fraud issues (fake IDs, stollen CCs, etc.) are a separate things.

What is overlooked here is the responses of FL which clearly state that acconuts were locked because of playing for the bonus money - betting on Red-Black on roulette, betting all money on one hand etc. and not because of fake account details.

I think this is where the community wants to see some action. It is my first post, but I have always referred player complaints to Casinomeister. And I believe that in this case he will go straight to the point (bonus abuse) and will not accept a generic response (syndicates, mafias, moon gravity).

It would be nice to see a clear response TO Casinomeister FROM FL about why players obeying their T&C have their winning confiscated - I agree, that online casinos, just like any other business, have the right to refuse service to anyone, but once they accept a deposit from a player - both player and casino are binded by the T&C which are not broken by playing red-black on roulette.

 

[lojo]

Hello Vesuvio, I've already pretty much said my piece here, so this is probably my last response on this thread because I'm not directly affected by this issue. If someone wants to start a 'bonus abuse, what is it?' thread or something I'm open to discussing it there. I'll probably just go back to reading this thread.

There's no way of winning long-term without bonuses. It's your personal choice if you only want to use bonuses when they're low-risk, but I hope you can accept others might feel differently.
What's fair play got to do with anything? Bonuses are offered to attract deposits - casinos know that with the usual wagering requirements any money deposited will be lost. In fact even without a bonus almost all money deposited will be lost.

I disagree with your first statement from personal experience. Looking at slots only: Because I didn't keep proper logs of when I used bonuses and when I didn't I can't differentiate last year's overall profit to strict +/-EV. Nor can I as yet consistently win at B&M because the machines are simply not as easy to get to know (and can change from visit to visit). But I have, over the last two months made a consistent 'profit' in simulation mode on MG slots confirming, to myself, that it isn't rocket science.

In it's simplest form a person simply has to have a disciplined bankroll, play conservatively, and quit when they are ahead. Over a course of ten sessions, the wins have consistently outpaced the occasional bust(s) for me.

The basic premise is to wager low enough to hit a feature or other good return and occasionally (usually, but not always) increase bet size when ahead. (sometimes the higher bets are 'randomly' disbursed throughout the session) Or simply stop and take the profit when ahead.

Taking advantage of a change in house edge is not needed to do this, only discipline. Mileage may vary.

And of course I respect other's opinions.

Yep, rogue is as rogue does. There's no knee jerk reaction - FL aren't a newly-opened operation with good intentions getting burnt. They know how the business works and they know exactly what they're doing.

I'm reserving judgement until it all shakes out.

How does it ruin anything for you? You're free to gamble and lose without bonuses to your heart's content - no casino's going to stop you.

WR are ever increasing to cover their bottom line from the players who take and don't give them a fair shake back. Notice the free-spin intro wr at VPL. It's a freaking chore to earn a 400% first deposit bonus on $50 now. But it can still be done (thanks to Loaded

I would hate to see MG casinos have to go to the extremes some RTGs have to offer bonuses. I like it simple, transparent, and understandable. A fair and simple offer.

I can and will play without bonuses, I prefer to have them available now and then. As I'm sure you know, many players here use them religiously, but they also patronize the properties that offer them. Some don't. Not my place to judge, but I think it affects the market. Lets hope casinos don't go to the insurance industry's delay, deny, and defend stance as matter of course.