Locked Account at Royal Vegas & Vegas Towers

[vinylweatherman]

Money

They do not have anything on me other than what they may consider "bonus abuse" in the casino. It is definitely not fraud though. I am not a member of any ring nor do I have an army of garden gnomes with accounts. This may be a problem though as I do have money at a couple of other Microgaming poker rooms that are unrelated to Fortune Lounge. That would really make me ill. I have submitted a PAB as well as complaints to eCOGRA and the Kahnawake Gaming Commission.

You should strongly consider NOT having "money at a couple of other Microgaming Poker rooms". While unrelated to FL, they are all related to Microgaming Poker Network. All they know is you have had your poker account locked. The Poker industry is so paranoid about collusion & fraud they will lock and ask questions later once the negative database is updated. Players have had accounts locked simply because they have appeared to have more than one alias over the entire Prima network, even though it is sometimes hard to determine exactly who is who in this networking game when signing up at individual skins. In casino terms, it is like being told you must have the same account number at all MG casinos, whether FL or Palace Group. The same rule appears in the new casino tournament lobby, and I fail to see why, since there is no "collusion" element when playing Thunderstruck that would gain any advantage.

 

[Vesuvio]

Thanks for the reply, dominique. I agree with most of what you write, though FL don't agree with us and do seem to consider "bonus hunting" cause for confiscating funds.

If a casino would post here exactly how each instance of fraud was committed, you would have all sorts of people running off to try it on some other casino, so understandably they can't do that. It's like handing out an instruction manual on how to commit fraud.

I don't think that's true - firstly Fortune Lounge have, perhaps ineptly, explained how to commit this particular "fraud", and secondly I think if they had conclusive proof against players they would jump at the chance to use it & wouldn't be sending out scatter-gun e-mails. In effect, as Fortune Lounge know many of these players won't have done anything wrong, they're knowingly defrauding a good percentage of players out of winnings. Not the sort of thing a reputable casino should be engaging in.

Taking fraud more generally (ignoring bonus hunting) & reading between the lines, I don't think FL have in mind anything that that word usually conjures up (credit card cheats, stealing someone's ID or whatever). Apart from bonus hunting, the word "syndicate" they use sounds sinister, but presumably it's something akin to the perfectly legal National Lottery syndicates in the UK. If you have a group of people willing to pool their resources I don't see anything particularly evil in that, though it may break a term or two and give casinos a reason not to pay.

There are two problems if you decide to "go after" such syndicates:

1) there's no way of using most of the flags the casinos seem to be using (play pattern, location etc.) to prove anything. I know from experience that if you play in the same way with no links to anyone else you can get caught. When the key flag is an obvious way of playing that might occur to any vaguely sentient being you can see the absurdity of it. (using these flags to exclude players after paying them is fair enough, and may well make sense)

2) and perhaps the clincher - even if it was possible to catch all "syndicates" run in a central way (let's say from one computer) there's nothing to stop exactly the same effect being achieved in a decentralised manner, in which case there's simply no proof to find (short of 24hr surveillance by a team of private eyes, checking who's visiting who and what happens behind closed doors).

The problem here really isn't fraud at all, it's the mathematics of bonuses. If you set them up so the player has an edge lots of players will always play to exploit that edge. If you set them up so the player has no chance and even has his winnings removed if he dares to win, the bonus won't attract anyone (except the terminally stupid).

You need to find a middle ground; a tricky task which not being a casino owner I can happily ignore

 

[Bindiana_Jones]

Just to keep people updated with my situation, their rep has now stopped taking PMs after sending me the following:

Please direct your complaint to eCOGRA.

It is total scum behavior to try and scam a casino just because you have found a loophole.

Wim
VP Operations

This was a reply to the earlier one I'd sent him saying

I must say it's pretty terrible to see you lot going down the stealing players funds route. I thought you were supposed to be reputable but obviously not......

It's total scum behaviour to steal players funds just because you don't like the way they play.

I really find this all shocking. I've been very carefull to only play at reputable casinos and am carefull to follow terms and conditions. I'm farily new to it all (gambling online since last September) and don't want the horror stories you read about happening to me.

I've certainly commited no fraud, and when I asked Wim what terms I'd broken he never came up with any. I think that pretty much tells you that I've done nothing wrong, and probably all the others they're trying to steal money from as well.

Complained to eCOGRA now as well as to Casinomeister yesterday so hopefully something will be done to stop this theft from happening

 

[cash4andy]

The Casino Rep called you scum

Can you verify this Casinomeister - if that's true it's beyond belief

 

[halfday]

Fraud issues (fake IDs, stollen CCs, etc.) are a separate things.

What is overlooked here is the responses of FL which clearly state that acconuts were locked because of playing for the bonus money - betting on Red-Black on roulette, betting all money on one hand etc. and not because of fake account details.
I think this is where the community wants to see some action. It is my first post, but I have always referred player complaints to Casinomeister. And I believe that in this case he will go straight to the point (bonus abuse) and will not accept a generic response (syndicates, mafias, moon gravity).

It would be nice to see a clear response TO Casinomeister FROM FL about why players obeying their T&C have their winning confiscated - I agree, that online casinos, just like any other business, have the right to refuse service to anyone, but once they accept a deposit from a player - both player and casino are binded by the T&C which are not broken by playing red-black on roulette.

I think that they DID give a clear response:

"we don't like winning players who use a bonus and we don't want to pay them"

Is there even a shred of difference between fortune lounge's actions and that of Casino4Aces or African Palace? There is no difference whatsoever.
I am surprised that some affiliates are even attempting to agree with FL that this is acceptable.

 

[lojo]

Just to keep people updated with my situation, their rep has now stopped taking PMs after sending me the following:



This was a reply to the earlier one I'd sent him saying



I really find this all shocking. I've been very carefull to only play at reputable casinos and am carefull to follow terms and conditions. I'm farily new to it all (gambling online since last September) and don't want the horror stories you read about happening to me.

I've certainly commited no fraud, and when I asked Wim what terms I'd broken he never came up with any. I think that pretty much tells you that I've done nothing wrong, and probably all the others they're trying to steal money from as well.

Complained to eCOGRA now as well as to Casinomeister yesterday so hopefully something will be done to stop this theft from happening

That is 'shocking'. You called them disreputable thieves and said their behavior was scum-like. He replied that the behavior of scamming a casino is scumlike 'just because you have found a loophole'.

Even though a Private Message, that was less than professional on Wim's part IMO; regardless of what else was conveyed or how many nasty messages they are dealing with right now. Bummer.

But it doesn't change the reality of what is really going on, whatever that may be.

Maybe I'm a naive optimist, but I think this is all going to work out just fine. The players who deserve their deposits back will get them, the casino may pay some bonuses or 'comps'. I don't have a crystal ball.


To all players involved. You were dealing with a MicroGaming casino. Fair games, no 'on-off' switch or adjustable house edge, a fair casino. You assumedly read the T&C, including the so-called 'rogue condition'. You took your chances with a 'system' or advantage over the house edge, or not. (no worries if not, this is a MG casino!) With or without this forum I believe the deserving players will be taken care of, the 'advantage' players will get what they have coming, their deposits. Outright fraudsters will see nothing but a blacklist.

That's my take on it.

The land of the brave and home of the free, and laws and rules to keep it that way.

Good luck

 

[The Dude]

The Casino Rep called you scum

Can you verify this Casinomeister - if that's true it's beyond belief

This was a private message (which I am not privy to BTW) and it looks like tit for tat, so it's really not that shocking in my opinion. Both accused each other of scummy behaviour.

I think that they DID give a clear response:

"we don't like winning players who use a bonus and we don't want to pay them"

Is there even a shred of difference between fortune lounge's actions and that of Casino4Aces or African Palace? There is no difference whatsoever.
I am surprised that some affiliates are even attempting to agree with FL that this is acceptable.

It's not as simple as it seems. It's easy to get riled up about what seems to be on the surface some players taking advantage of a casino's bonus, but it goes a bit deeper. There is definately fraud involved (shared player information, identical computer IDs, etc), but it's taking some time going through all of this.

This is really unprecedented with any other casino group. and I'm sure most everyone else is putting their shields up.

I hope by the end of the day I'll have some answers. So far only ten PABs have been submitted. Three of them are more than likely fraudulent. I'll keep everyone updated as best I can.

 

[GrandMaster]

If there is fraud or suspected fraud, then FL should say that, and the style of play is irrelevant.

 

[Vesuvio]

To all players involved. You were dealing with a MicroGaming casino. Fair games, no 'on-off' switch or adjustable house edge, a fair casino. You assumedly read the T&C, including the so-called 'rogue condition'. You took your chances with a 'system' or advantage over the house edge, or not. (no worries if not, this is a MG casino!) With or without this forum I believe the deserving players will be taken care of, the 'advantage' players will get what they have coming, their deposits.

So you're saying that if a player tries to make a profit with a bonus the casino should be in a win-win situation. Either the player loses or the casino steals his winnings. Nice

 

[hakapuku]

The stories like these (the stories with casinos claiming "bonus abuse") are very simple to understand. In todays online casinos industry it is very difficult to be a good casino not offering any good bonuses. They offer the bonuses not because they are so generous but only because they must compete their rival casinos for the clients. And, as with almost any promotion and as with almost any other marketing decision - there may be positive results for the casino/business or negative. It is about taking risks. But in online industry the casinos don't want to take risks- they put all the negative consequences of their wrong business decisions on their clients' heads. They don't want to aknowledge that they have made a mistake offering some promotion and that they didn't calculate it well. Instead they blame the clients for their absolutely natural wish to win money and not to lose it. As if casinos, while offering the promotions ,are thinking about losing money and not about making it in tons. I say to all the casinos that don't want to be named robbers and criminals- stop offering promotions if you are not sure about its consequences for your business. But if you do decide to offer any promotion- be ready to pay for any minuses in your balance sheet that it may bring. There is no other way.( Sorry for my bad english)

 

[cash4andy]

Nice post above, exactly my thoughts. I can't believe anyone can justify non payment of regular bonus hunters, if it was any other business stiffing their customers in this way nobody would defend the business.

I've got no idea why anyone would defend a casino more than another businss without financial interest in it, after all making money from gamblers vices isn't exactly the most moral of ways to earn money.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Reminds me

This reminds me of a similar situation years ago. Some may remember it.

Hoover needed to shift a large overstock of its product, so offered a promotion whereby customers who wanted a new cleaner would get a pair of free flights to pretty much anywhere. Naturally, they protected themselves by saying that they could choose the dates of the flights, and customers could select from a list of destinations that were on offer. This was because Hoover knew that under these restrictive terms they could buy in surplus seats from the airlines at rock bottom prices, and the offer would cost them far less than the perceived value to customers.

Sadly, they miscalculated human nature. Customers took the view that this offer represented cheap flights with a free vacuum cleaner or washing machine thrown in. Hoover shifted all the stock in no time, and the offer ran out early. However, so many people wanted the flights that Hoover could not cope, so they made a decision to make the claim process so difficult and restrictive that customers would just give up and not push the claims. Sadly, this didn't work, and a full media protest ensued. Eventually, Hoover were rumbled for deliberately attempting to renege on this "bonus". THEY were upset that customers had exploited the offer not to get a new appliance, but to cover the flights for their next holiday. The fallout was immense, and was pretty much the finish of Hoover as a strong company. When cases came to the courts and regulatory authorities (trading standards), Hoover were told to cough up the free flights as promised under their original terms, the alternative would be to refund all the purchases if customers chose that.

This is how casinos market bonus, they even use the same language, "purchase" $100, and get $100 free - see T & C.
It doesn't matter that some players employed this strategy or that, provided it was in accordance with the terms and conditions. The "loophole" in this case was EZBonus, with no banned games, players could exploit a mathematical curiosity that was WELL KNOWN IN THE INDUSTRY, and by FL as previously they had placed restrictions on Roulette and Blackjack, along with the other games with big even money bet opportunities. They must have been aware of what might happen when they introduced EZBonus, but chose not to incorporate a defence in the main terms, but instead decided that if it all got out of hand they would envoke the "F.U Clause" to get out of paying too much. This meant that players who got on board last got screwed, whereas those who hit early got paid.
Among this wave of players, there were of course the fraudsters who tried signing up again and again, doing the rounds with this method several times at each FL casino. This, of course, is against the specific terms and conditions for the casino, no more that one account per registered address, PC etc. It is this group that FL should not be paying, not the larger group that spotted an offer that worked for them and took the casino up on the bet. Thats what a bonus is, it's a side bet offered by the casino. They bet you $100 against your $100 that you can't wager a certain amount under a given set of restrictions. The player can accept or decline, and so can the casino. As soon as the bonus is added, the casino has accepted the side bet, and when the player first plays with the bonus money in the account, they have also accepted the side bet. Certainly in the pre EZBonus days, FL would not allow players to play a little then decide they didn't want the bonus after all and wanted to withdraw minus the bonus money. The casino argued that once the player wagered with the bonus in the account the contract was irreversible, and the player had to finish WR. It should be the same in this situation, the casino should pay players UNLESS there really is fraud, and not just undesirable play. They can then lock the player either from further bonuses, or from the casino altogether.

 

[JALaw]

PAB? Do you want it? Is it worth the effort?

This is really unprecedented with any other casino group. and I'm sure most everyone else is putting their shields up.

I hope by the end of the day I'll have some answers. So far only ten PABs have been submitted. Three of them are more than likely fraudulent. I'll keep everyone updated as best I can.[/QUOTE]

I haven't PAB'd because I haven't had any funds confiscated, I've just had my accounts locked. Seemed like small potatoes and a waste of time given that I'll never play at any site affiliated with Fortune Lounge (casino, poker, sportsbook, whatever). I played the bonuses aggressively, but there's absolutely no fraud involved.

I'm more than happy to PAB if you want it. Otherwise, I'll continue to monitor the thread for entertainment value.

Jeff

ps. While I may have just recently signed up at casinomeister, I have PAB'd before with a poker bonus problem at Intertops, which was ultimately resolved and I have regularly reviewed the site when I was actively playing casino bonuses.

 

[The Dude]

The importance of PABing is that I can keep track of player issues and get a good feel for the severity of issues. And it's not like I sit on them, they go to the top level of management to be looked into. They are posted here as well, so they are a matter of public record:
https://www.casinomeister.com/static/pitchabitch/index.php

But if you don't want to PAB, that's fine.

 

[powerball]

Casinomeister: I PAB against Vegas Palms Casino the 12.03, but I don't see it in the list you linked to.. Can you confirm that it is still in the system even tho it isnt on the list?

Thanx

 

[The Dude]

Casinomeister: I PAB against Vegas Palms Casino the 12.03, but I don't see it in the list you linked to.. Can you confirm that it is still in the system even tho it isnt on the list?

Thanx

It's there. It was forwarded on the 12th, but not annotated in the PAB section. It is now.
https://www.casinomeister.com/static/pitchabitch/march2007.php

 

[lojo]

So you're saying that if a player tries to make a profit with a bonus the casino should be in a win-win situation. Either the player loses or the casino steals his winnings. Nice

I just don't think these guys are going to burn anyone. I could be wrong.
I'm not the judge for anyone but myself of what I would consider fairplay or exploit. But in general I personally think that taking a radical technique learned on a forum or elsewhere and using it to exploit an an offer is not fair play. Multiply that effect by (how many?) and it hits the bottom line in an unfair way. When an insurance company or other 'the man' loses money, they don't take a hit, they pass it on , to whom? Me and you. Maybe in this case the 'hand me down' will be more restrictive bonus offers or labyrinth T&C. "steal' from the rich and they'll pass it down to the poor.

My opinion might not be popular and it could be misguided. I have no disrespect for advantage players, but they are taking a risk in my opinion and sometimes things don't work out so nicely for them.

I'll take my chances against the EV with a reputable casino and occasionally use a bonus to get a leg-up. Remember that email i shared in my first (?) post on this thread? I'll bet that if someone wrote them and asked if it would be okay to accept a bonus, bet mass on a high risk game, them grind out some near even money, they would have politely been told, 'no, that would not be acceptable'.

 

[Vesuvio]

I just don't think these guys are going to burn anyone.

They have, though, and they've admitted to it and even explained their warped reasoning.

I'm not the judge for anyone but myself of what I would consider fairplay or exploit. But in general I personally think that taking a radical technique learned on a forum or elsewhere and using it to exploit an an offer is not fair play.

The casino state you have to wager x, and they state how much each game contributes to meeting the wagering requirement. Anyone who does that is "playing fair", not that that's really a relevant category here. The technique you talk about isn't radical and could occur to anyone - though of course there's no earthly reason why players shouldn't swap strategies with other players.

I have no disrespect for advantage players, but they are taking a risk in my opinion and sometimes things don't work out so nicely for them.

Why do I suddenly picture a mafia boss

I'll take my chances against the EV with a reputable casino and occasionally use a bonus to get a leg-up. Remember that email i shared in my first (?) post on this thread? I'll bet that if someone wrote them and asked if it would be okay to accept a bonus, bet mass on a high risk game, them grind out some near even money, they would have politely been told, 'no, that would not be acceptable'.

Well yes, if we all wrote to them before play with our plan of action I'm sure they'd handpick the rich and stupid compulsive gamblers amongst us, but I'm not sure what that proves.

In any case, in an earlier post you claimed you had a way of beating casinos on slots with money management and the like. Assuming you believe that (even though it's impossible unless the casino's rigged), then on your own terms you're much more of a parasite than all these advantage players who only exploit the casino once or twice for an expected profit of less than the bonus. You want to use the casino as a money tree. Given that, I don't really get your problem with players trying to win with bonuses

 

[halfday]

I just don't think these guys are going to burn anyone. I could be wrong.
I'm not the judge for anyone but myself of what I would consider fairplay or exploit. But in general I personally think that taking a radical technique learned on a forum or elsewhere and using it to exploit an an offer is not fair play. Multiply that effect by (how many?) and it hits the bottom line in an unfair way. When an insurance company or other 'the man' loses money, they don't take a hit, they pass it on , to whom? Me and you. Maybe in this case the 'hand me down' will be more restrictive bonus offers or labyrinth T&C. "steal' from the rich and they'll pass it down to the poor.

My opinion might not be popular and it could be misguided. I have no disrespect for advantage players, but they are taking a risk in my opinion and sometimes things don't work out so nicely for them.

I'll take my chances against the EV with a reputable casino and occasionally use a bonus to get a leg-up. Remember that email i shared in my first (?) post on this thread? I'll bet that if someone wrote them and asked if it would be okay to accept a bonus, bet mass on a high risk game, them grind out some near even money, they would have politely been told, 'no, that would not be acceptable'.

None of this makes any sense to me at all. I do respect you though so I am not saying you are wrong.... it just really, really appears that way to me

The casino is not doing us a favor by letting us play there. They want you to lose and lose often and lose a lot! They put out games that all have an expected house advantage. It is illogical to think that players should not try to win in my opinion.

I must respectfully totally disagree with your comments. Though that is what is wonderful about forums: They allow all of us to share our ideas.

 

[lojo]

You present a fair argument, Vesuvio. I'm not adverse to being enlightened. VWM's 'hoover' post made good sense as well. Guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all shakes out.

I have no problem sleeping at night when I beat the house edge, and I've never had a problem being paid. Of course it's impossible to second guess the program or predict the RNG, but it is possible to quit when you're ahead and/or bet large a few times during a session (sometimes being rewarded$ for it) Would you agree that in most slot sessions there is a point where you have more money than you started with? I'm not counting cards or exploiting loopholes, just working with what is offered.

"Advantage players" yeah, in the back of my mind I might have imagined being gently but firmly glided away from a blackjack table to 'the office' when I wrote that We don't have to worry about that with reputable casinos online.

I still think it will all work out in this situation. If not, bummer. At least we have different perspectives and facets to look at with the discussion.

Good luck

 

[Mousey]

I don't like it when a good casino group calls the FU Rule in to play when there is no fraud and no violation of the T&Cs.

I don't like it when casinos offer monster sign up bonuses for new players, get burned, then cry foul.

I still think casinos should shift some of their attention to retaining loyal players, and cut back on these huge sign up promos.

If any players defraud the casinos (multiple accounts at the same casino, etc.) they should have their deposit returned and then locked out.

If players have committed the 'sin' of exhibiting a pattern of play the casino doesn't like, but these players have played within the T&C, pay them, then lock them out. (I wouldn't want to play there anymore anyway.)

That's Mousey's nickel's worth.

 

[dominique]

I still think casinos should shift some of their attention to retaining loyal players, and cut back on these huge sign up promos.

I agree with that one especially. It would do away with so much nonsense.

 

[lojo]

I don't like it when a good casino group calls the FU Rule in to play when there is no fraud and no violation of the T&Cs.

I've been of the impression that there is something going on, Mousey. When you cast a wide net all kinds of fishees are going to be in it. As long as they're sorted in the end, its just another day at the races.

I don't like it when casinos offer monster sign up bonuses for new players, get burned, then cry foul.

That might be part of what's up. They'll do the right thing in the end or not. What the 'right thing' is - is not always black and white imho. I don't envy anyone involved in this dispute.

I still think casinos should shift some of their attention to retaining loyal players, and cut back on these huge sign up promos.

Wouldn't that be sweet? Then across a whole platform like MG we would play where we were treated best; CS, fast payouts, etc. As it is now the longer you stay, the less attention you get in my experience.

If any players defraud the casinos (multiple accounts at the same casino, etc.) they should have their deposit returned and then locked out.

I think they should not get their deposits back if it was intentional and if they do it again should be 'blacklisted' as cheats.

If players have committed the 'sin' of exhibiting a pattern of play the casino doesn't like, but these players have played within the T&C, pay them, then lock them out. (I wouldn't want to play there anymore anyway.)

That's the rub with part of this to me.. I have mixed feelings on that. If that's the 'failsafe', so be it. It's pretty much an online phenomenon and won't last forever.

That's Mousey's nickel's worth.

Is that adjusted for inflation?

 

[lojo]

None of this makes any sense to me at all. I do respect you though so I am not saying you are wrong.... it just really, really appears that way to me

The casino is not doing us a favor by letting us play there. They want you to lose and lose often and lose a lot! They put out games that all have an expected house advantage. It is illogical to think that players should not try to win in my opinion.

I must respectfully totally disagree with your comments. Though that is what is wonderful about forums: They allow all of us to share our ideas.

Thanks for responding, halfday. I totally respect your disagreement to my 'position'. And I respect your opinion. It makes perfect sense.

I haven't been gaming online very long, and maybe I just got lucky to run across microgaming casinos when I started out. It seemed a no BS way to play a game that didn't change in midstream. I appreciated that, so I played again.

I just don't get it overall, the advantage thing. Bonuses aside I just want to put my money down and win or lose. If I can't take 'your' money from the house (cuz they sure aren't giving me theirs then I've got no business playing.

See, it's not 'us against them' in my opinion, it's the disciplined gambler against the undisciplined gambler. And that sucks. But we play.

When we deal with solid people who pay out and take our moneys fairly (house edge/advantage, ev, whatever) we are really playing against each other. Someone loses and someone wins. The house will make their profit in a fair game.

Maybe I should have stayed out of this thread, but it seemed too important.

I want to play online (uigaboard aside and I don't want any BS when it is easy to do again. So I'll do my little part to stand up for what I think is a good casino group. It's really no sweat to me. It will shake out as it does.

I wish you the best of luck

 

[The Dude]

This is a tedious and time consuming process, and as info comes in I'll share it with you.

BTW, I've been informed that Bindiana Jone's account has been unlocked by FL. I'm hoping to have have more this afternoon.

 

[halfday]

Its hard to understand since we are not privy to any of this private information but wouldnt you think that a program with any common sense or integrity at all would have done all of this tedious fact finding prior to locking down thousands and thousands of accounts? Especially after just getting back on the accredited list? I wouldnt expect that this type of gross mishandling by FL would be just a small error on their part. This says volumes about them in many ways.

 

[The Dude]

Its hard to understand since we are not privy to any of this private information but wouldnt you think that a program with any common sense or integrity at all would have done all of this tedious fact finding prior to locking down thousands and thousands of accounts? Especially after just getting back on the accredited list? I wouldnt expect that this type of gross mishandling by FL would be just a small error on their part. This says volumes about them in many ways.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. This is a very complicated situation which I hope will be pretty much resolved over the next several days.

 

[Bindiana_Jones]

This is a tedious and time consuming process, and as info comes in I'll share it with you.

BTW, I've been informed that Bindiana Jone's account has been unlocked by FL. I'm hoping to have have more this afternoon.

Hi Bryan,

Just tried to login and they're still locked so they've given you some false info there.

Cheers.

 

[The Dude]

Hi Bryan,

Just tried to login and they're still locked so they've given you some false info there.

Cheers.

Why don't you wait a bit; they are dealing with a lot of stuff right now. That info was from their operations. It may not have been delegated down yet.

 

[cbe2869]

Royal Vegas/PokerTime

I received this response from Royal Vegas/PokerTime today. I have confirmed that I can indeed log into my poker account again. I am satisfied with this resolution.

Hi XXXXX,

We have recently sent you communication informing you that your Casino accounts at the Fortunelounge Group of Casinos have been locked for Promotional Abuse.

Please note that whilst your Casino account will remain locked, we have unlocked your Poker account prvrXXXXXXXX with us.

Kind regards,

The Fortune Lounge Poker Team

 

[cbe2869]

Royal Vegas/PokerTime

Of course it's a little unsettling that now that my accont is unlocked it seems that all of their websites are down. Royal Vegas, PokerTime, VegasTowers, Fortune Lounge, etc. I hope this isn't why the casino rep said he wouldn't be participating in this forum anymore.

 

[winbig]

Of course it's a little unsettling that now that my accont is unlocked it seems that all of their websites are down. Royal Vegas, PokerTime, VegasTowers, Fortune Lounge, etc. I hope this isn't why the casino rep said he wouldn't be participating in this forum anymore.

No worries. It's either a network issue, or just their SQL server being down right now.

Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80004005'

[Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver][DBNETLIB]General network error. Check your network documentation.

/geotracking.asp, line 59

 

[cbe2869]

Whew. They are back up.

 

[halfday]

These guys are unreal. They lock my accounts that I have lost overall on but keep sending me promotional Email junk.

Real nice and reputable group.

 

[gmblpdam]

I agree with the casino in the fact that they have the right to refuse anyones business that they choose, regardless of the reason. However, any balances must be paid out and this includes winners from bonuses. Only having deposits returned, while a good start, is definately not good enough. If a player has a legitimate account and has met the respective playthoughs, as defined in your T&C's, then he must be paid! Pay these players, and then lock their accounts. If all legitimate players, regardless of playing style, are not paid in full then IMO they certainly don't deserve to be on the accredited list.

I am from one of the banned states so playing at this group was not an issue for me anyways, but I am truly sorry to hear about all these players with locked accounts and frozen money. I had always regarded this group as a high class operation, but I'm not so sure that is true anymore if they don't make this right.

BTW, Cbe I'm glad to hear your poker account was reopened. The closing of poker accounts because of how you played in their casino is truly ridiculous. At least they have made one step in the right direction. Good luck all.

 

[bluewhale]

i thought i shld just mention that, even though it doesn't personally affect me cause i had no money in my accounts, i also got emails from a few fortune lounge owned casinos that i had played at back in august. i haven't played at any casino relating to them in probably 6 months, and i never played either baccarat or french roulette which seem to be the games being discussed. so i'm not really sure why i got banned.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Winners

i thought i shld just mention that, even though it doesn't personally affect me cause i had no money in my accounts, i also got emails from a few fortune lounge owned casinos that i had played at back in august. i haven't played at any casino relating to them in probably 6 months, and i never played either baccarat or french roulette which seem to be the games being discussed. so i'm not really sure why i got banned.

It looks like the big issue is about starting with one big bet using the whole bankroll, which could be done on many other games, such as Blackjack, in order to get a near 50% chance of doubling the bankroll. Following the big bet, the technique was to meet the WR using tiny and numerous bets. While French Roulette was the best option, no doubt others were used, Blackjack perhaps, with the added benefit of cashing in the resulting Fortune Points at the end.

FL seem to argue against having a specific term, while players say they should have added one if this was becoming a problem, and they would then have had grounds to confiscate winnings without the need to resort to the "F U Clause".

Trident Lounge clearly have the same issues now they have moved to the new bonus system, here is their version of the FL "F U Clause".

----------------
Until a Player completes the wager conditions for the Welcome Bonus, the Player's total Cash Account balance represents the maximum a Player may wager as a single bet. The Player's Cash and Bonus Account balances may not be combined as a single bet until the wager conditions have been completed for the Welcome Bonus.
-------------------------------------------------

 

[freni126]

----------------
Until a Player completes the wager conditions for the Welcome Bonus, the Player's total Cash Account balance represents the maximum a Player may wager as a single bet. The Player's Cash and Bonus Account balances may not be combined as a single bet until the wager conditions have been completed for the Welcome Bonus.
-------------------------------------------------

I understand the first part of this.. you can't combine the cash and bonus balance in one big bet. But the part "The Player's Cash and Bonus Account balances may not be combined as a single bet until the wager conditions have been completed for the Welcome Bonus. " I don't understand... when the WR is met there should be no bonus balance left to bet with the cash balance?
Do they mean that it will be ok to bet big in the future reloads you might get?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yes

I understand the first part of this.. you can't combine the cash and bonus balance in one big bet. But the part "The Player's Cash and Bonus Account balances may not be combined as a single bet until the wager conditions have been completed for the Welcome Bonus. " I don't understand... when the WR is met there should be no bonus balance left to bet with the cash balance?
Do they mean that it will be ok to bet big in the future reloads you might get?

These terms are specific to the welcome bonus. There is also no option to cash in early from the welcome bonus, but other reloads are subject to the normal bonus system rules. The terms also cover the "smart arse" who would make the first bet as $1 on a hand of, say, poker - and then combine the remaining $399 into a big SECOND bet. This term would outlaw any attempt to place a big bet consisting of the entire bankroll while there are significant bonus funds left. There might be a problem of interpretation should the bankroll shrink so low as to make it big enough for only one bet, but that bet would no longer be "abusive".

 

[halfday]

I think that this point is not apples to apples. They simply don't allow you to wager your entire bonus plus deposit balance on one bet by having their software restrict you to only betting your cash balance. This is not something that you have to be aware of and abide by.... it is programmed in the software.
Again, FL had all of these options available to it just like all of the other MG casinos do. They had originally changed their terms to note that you must complete the wager requirements before cashing out even your cash balance. Most MG casinos allow you to forfeit your bonus but not FL. This is fine because it is in their T&C. Keeping players money because they don't like the way you played within their T&C is unacceptable.
To answer your question more directly: As you clear the bonus the bonus money becomes cash balance and can then be used to bet. The software does not allow you to bet more than your cash balance when beginning.

 

[GrandMaster]

Trident Lounge clearly have the same issues now they have moved to the new bonus system, here is their version of the FL "F U Clause".

----------------
Until a Player completes the wager conditions for the Welcome Bonus, the Player's total Cash Account balance represents the maximum a Player may wager as a single bet. The Player's Cash and Bonus Account balances may not be combined as a single bet until the wager conditions have been completed for the Welcome Bonus.
-------------------------------------------------

Does this also mean that you cannot place any bets if you lose all your deposit and converted cash balance?

 

[Tagdog]

Does this also mean that you cannot place any bets if you lose all your deposit and converted cash balance?

What are you supposed to do if you lose all "your cash" and only bonus money is in the account? They really need someone with half a brain to write the the terms and conditions.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Try

What are you supposed to do if you lose all "your cash" and only bonus money is in the account? They really need someone with half a brain to write the the terms and conditions.

They have at least tried to define a rule, unlike FL.

I have played out the bonus at one, and I bet up to 10 chips, and the software accepted it. When I ran out of cash, I could play with the bonus as per normal.
Incidentally, in this situation, there is no cash to combine with the bonus money, so the term becomes inactive. It is a complicated subject, and there is still a way around these rules, by betting all the cash, followed by all the bonus if the cash bet loses. You need to be 3 bets ahead to achieve the same result as winning a single combined bet. I expect they feel this gives them a chance.

 

[powerball]

Casinomeister: Do you have any updates in this case?

 

[The Dude]

Yes - this is what I have as of about 30 minutes ago:

maartik
Bogus account - banned

powerball
$50 purchase refunded via Neteller.

cbe2869
Poker account has been unlocked and player was notified.

Bindiana Jones
All accounts re-opened.
All cash-ins have been paid.

vincenski
Bogus account - banned

Pommacc
pending

Holmer
Bogus account - banned

consty1
Will receive refund of €50 purchase.

justusvsg
Bogus account - banned
(From the casino: I don't know what his issue is as there are no positive balances in his accounts and he received his cash-ins to the value 379.70)

stanny
Purchased $110 and cashed in $426

 

[stanny]

Hi Casinomeister,

My purchase of $110 and withdrawal of $426 at Vegas Palms is done and cleared for. I did not complaint about that. My account at Vegas Palms was not even locked I believe.

My complaint/PAB was at Desert Dollar in which I deposited $60 and ran it up to about $300 and before I could satisfy play through requirements, I got my account locked.

Can you please check on this? Fortune Lounge got it wrong.

Thanks alot Casinomeister, owe you lots.

 

[Consty1]

Well looks like I'll get my deposit back if not my winnings. Thanks for the effort Casinomeister.

 

[powerball]

Refunded purchase and thats it?

If that is case, it's really sad...

 

[GOCC]

Yes - this is what I have as of about 30 minutes ago:

maartik
Bogus account - banned

powerball
$50 purchase refunded via Neteller.

cbe2869
Poker account has been unlocked and player was notified.

Bindiana Jones
All accounts re-opened.
All cash-ins have been paid.

vincenski
Bogus account - banned

Pommacc
pending

Holmer
Bogus account - banned

consty1
Will receive refund of 50 purchase.

justusvsg
Bogus account - banned
(From the casino: I don't know what his issue is as there are no positive balances in his accounts and he received his cash-ins to the value 379.70)

stanny
Purchased $110 and cashed in $426

Can I ask what these players have done that CM believes just a refund of their deposit would constitute a satisfactory conclusion.

I can not for the life of me think of any scenario where a refund of the deposit would be ok. They have either conned the casino and lost everything or they have met the wr any withdrawals should be honoured

 

[halfday]

Thanks for the update CM!

Can you explain in full what is bogus about the accounts labled as such?