Locked Account at Royal Vegas & Vegas Towers

[WLVRYN]

Meister - are you any further along on throwing them in the rogue pit? If they havent changed their minds by now and paid everyone that isnt a fraudster, I think that's the next step. This has been going on for too long not to take some action here.

 

[Consty1]

Did you have any winnings?

Stanford

Yes I had winnings also but I've basically given up on receiving them back.

 

[The Dude]

Meister - are you any further along on throwing them in the rogue pit? If they havent changed their minds by now and paid everyone that isnt a fraudster, I think that's the next step. This has been going on for too long not to take some action here.

Right now, my main concern is trying to get the casino to do the right thing. As you know, I was out for two weeks, and I was hoping that during my absence FL would begin paying the players who did not violate the terms and conditions. I have been informed by FL that they are paying the non-fraudulent accounts. It's a slow process that is encompassing a number of resources.

I should have more info in the next couple of days.

 

[halfday]

I think in most cases it really is that simple. I have all my accounts locked and could not care less. I don't trust fortune lounge and wont be playing them again. If I had money in there I would complain. Why would I waste your time and my time with a complaint to open accounts that I don't want any longer.

I think you are underestimating that. I know a bunch of people who had their accounts locked that they don't care about and havent played at in a year or more.

 

[The Dude]

I think you are underestimating that. I know a bunch of people who had their accounts locked that they don't care about and havent played at in a year or more.

Point taken - and I've taken this into consideration. I don't doubt you know a bunch of people who have had their accounts closed, but I would guess this number is less than 30. We're talking thousands here

 

[vinylweatherman]

Complaints

Point taken - and I've taken this into consideration. I don't doubt you know a bunch of people who have had their accounts closed, but I would guess this number is less than 30. We're talking thousands here

Surely the figure of interest is how many complaints were NOT received despite there being funds in the locked account. It is likely a fraudster who knows they tried to pull a fast one but got caught will not complain, but move on to scam another casino group. Complaining would only create an investigation that will confirm they committed a fraud, rather than allow them to hide among those that merely MAY have done something wrong.
Bonus hunters who have only played for the bonus and withdrawn are unlikely to complain unless they still had funds in the accounts.

It almost looks like there IS a basis for this involving fraud, as it seems to go from MG group to MG group every few months - looks like they are making enough before getting caught to be worth while. Presumably, another big MG will be hit over the summer, so they should be prepared in advance, and not risk a fiasco by locking too many innocent accounts (none ideally).

 

[pangloss]

I believe I am the only one who has mentioned player fraud besides FL. I am not an affiliate, nor will I "hang my head in shame".

Pangloss - you owe me some pushups.

There is player fraud involved which has made this entire episode complicated thus time consuming. Most of the 1000s of accounts that were locked never generated a complaint - explain that. Read some of my previous posts.

Besides the three accounts banned here for submitting a fraudulent claim, add a fourth "saarasavunen".

I am not doing push ups. Here's why:

FL has never publically made any allegation of fraud. Indeed there is not a jot of evidence publically available to support such a claim. No doubt there is player and Casino fraud committed every minute of the day - just look at the complaints from players appearing on these boards every single day.

The issue remains the same - FL defrauding players of both deposit and winnings. Contrary to the alleged player fraud there is prima facie evidence of FL fraud contained in their statement(s) posted on this very Forum. The claim that players abused bonus T+Cs according to "bet size" and "game selection" was bogus from the very outset. The intent to permanently deprive players of lawfully acquired money via such bogus claims is a fraud within the jurisdiction that I reside.

Unlike your good self CM I do not accept the timing of FL purchasing advertising and subsequent reinstatement on the accredited list and THEN launching this fraud on players is in any way coincidental. IMHO they have played you like a piano and taken advantage of your status within the online casino industry for their own nefarious purposes.

I posted these thoughts very early in the piece on another Forum (BB) and looking back in hindsight there is certainly no reason to change my mind. The very fact that the FL group have not been summarliy dispatched to the Rogue List is glowing testament to that fact.

Now let's return to the issue of Casino fraud - claims of player fraud in this intance are smokescreens for the real fraudsters. Just how dumb do you think players are?


...

 

[The Dude]

I am not doing push ups. Here's why:

FL has never publically made any allegation of fraud. Indeed there is not a jot of evidence publically available to support such a claim. No doubt there is player and Casino fraud committed every minute of the day - just look at the complaints from players appearing on these boards every single day...

I was the one who stated there was fraud, and this is via the information they had afforded me. It had nothing to do with any of their public statements. But you have a point.

The issue remains the same - FL defrauding players of both deposit and winnings. Contrary to the alleged player fraud there is prima facie evidence of FL fraud contained in their statement(s) posted on this very Forum. The claim that players abused bonus T+Cs according to "bet size" and "game selection" was bogus from the very outset. The intent to permanently deprive players of lawfully acquired money via such bogus claims is a fraud within the jurisdiction that I reside...

You have a point there, but they have reversed some of their decisions.

Unlike your good self CM I do not accept the timing of FL purchasing advertising and subsequent reinstatement on the accredited list and THEN launching this fraud on players is in any way coincidental. IMHO they have played you like a piano and taken advantage of your status within the online casino industry for their own nefarious purposes....

I think it may have been the other way around. They got pounded by these players before and after they came back on board. Believe me, no one is playing me - I'm just giving them room to pay the players who did not violate any of their terms and conditions.

I posted these thoughts very early in the piece on another Forum (BB) and looking back in hindsight there is certainly no reason to change my mind. The very fact that the FL group have not been summarliy dispatched to the Rogue List is glowing testament to that fact.

Now let's return to the issue of Casino fraud - claims of player fraud in this intance are smokescreens for the real fraudsters. Just how dumb do you think players are?
..

If a player is playing on a computer that has several other players playing from the same computer - that's fraud since these other players are bogus accounts. It's the same person posing as several players. This scenario applies to a number of the complaints that have been submitted, but not all. It seems as though some people are thinking that I'm implying that all complaints are fraudulent, this is way wrong.

I was told yesterday that "Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not."

Perhaps we (FL and I) have differing opinions on what defines fraud

 

[halfday]

CM,

Certainly you and FL are totally different. You are standing up and rightfully saying that the players using multiple identities are frauds and you are exactly correct.
FL has and IS stating that "FRAUD" is going in and making a big bet on a low HA game then using French roulette or some similar game to get through the Wagering requirement. This is not FRAUD but they are saying it is. They are saying, in essence, that if you win you are a fraud. It is horrible and they have stated their wrongful position repeatedly here and in Emails. It cant be tolerated to take a players money that obided by all the rules.
Somehow we keep getting sidetracked on player fraud and such but the proof is right here in this thread that fortune lounge considers it fraud to win using sound mathematical practices that do not break their rules in any way.

Thats it. Period. We keep getting spun but the bottom line is that they have admitted to not paying players because they "didn't like how they played".
This is not fraud - they are claiming it is.

 

[The Dude]

CM,

Certainly you and FL are totally different. You are standing up and rightfully saying that the players using multiple identities are frauds and you are exactly correct.
FL has and IS stating that "FRAUD" is going in and making a big bet on a low HA game then using French roulette or some similar game to get through the Wagering requirement...

No, they said that was bonus abuse. I'm still working on this and players who are coming through me and eCOGRA are getting paid once fraudulent play has been ruled out.

 

[gamerkip]

I am STILL under investigation. eCOGRA is still handeling my case. CM, I am told NOT to contact a third party. I tolled them I contacted casinomeister representatives before mailing eCOGRA. I got a mail back I am not allowed to post any information until the cause is resolved (or not, since it is still not resolved)

Just to let you know...

After everything is finished (It does take a damn long waiting), resolved(paid) or not resolved(not paid) I will post all my expiriences...

cheers everyone!

 

[halfday]

I do mean "bonus abusers". We do not, and have not had, issues with players who take us up on our offers, try out the different games in our casinos and withdraw. We have never had any issue with real, legitimate winners either.

This is a case where players purchase the minium required to receive the offer (no problem with this) wager the full amount on one hand of a low risk game and, if they win, proceed to play only French Roulette, betting on red or black / odds or evens to meet the wagering requirements and then to cash in and disappear. This is nothing else than bonus abuse, call it what you like.



Thank you for your version. We regard syndicates as players linked by certain identifiers who play from the same area and display the same patterns.


No inncocent players were affected. It will be totally insane of us to throw away good (potential) business. Moderately clued-up players do not all display exactly the same patterns as in this case.



If a bank does not have metal detectors it doesn't justify why the bank should be robbed.

Bonuses are there to attract real, honest, bona fide players. It should be our right to exclude players who clearly display that they are only interested in taking advantage of a free money offer with no intention to return.

We have never practiced "we can do whatever we like" You seem to advocate this for players.



If we (and other operators) keep on allowing bonus abuse to this extent, we won't have a business.

Our Terms and Conditions are very explicit on this issue. It is every player's responsibility to read, understand and agree to these Terms and Conditions and no player is allowed to open an account unless he/she agrees to these terms. If someone is not happy with a particular term or condition, then the logical thing to do is to go and find a casino that does not have such a term.
Terms and Conditions are there to protect players and casino alike.

It boggles my mind then that, when we enforce these terms, it becomes an issue and we are wrong. We are then liars and thieves and the player is the victim.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

Maybe I am reading it wrong but they seem to be saying that if you try to win you are a bonusabuser and this is paramount to fraud.

That is my point.

Somehow we keep getting turned around to massive player fraud.

Where?

They are admitting to locking accounts and confiscating winnings/deposits because of game play tactics in which the player tried to win.

This is totally rogue behavior in every aspect. I am shocked that there is any debate to this at all.

 

[Stanford]

Somehow we keep getting turned around to massive player fraud.

Where?

They are admitting to locking accounts and confiscating winnings/deposits because of game play tactics in which the player tried to win.

This is totally rogue behavior in every aspect. I am shocked that there is any debate to this at all.

It isn't player fraud. It is casino fraud.

Fortune Lounge was a bit low on cash. There has been a market constriction you know. They decided to take some from the players they invited in with a bonus. They need new players and offering bonuses are the way to do that. But then there are skilled players who can turn figure out advantagous ways to play them.

They simply need players and want to offer bonuses to get them but then, avoid paying some of the winners. And they want only stupid players - no smart ones.

eCOGRA is a shill. I hate to say it, but I believe it. They will back the casinos if they can. And it goes further than that. It really speaks to the lack of integrity of Microgaming as a franchise.

Do yourself a favor. Forget these rogues and switch to poker. If you want to play slots, wait and go to Vegas. Once upon a time there would have been a boycott over stuff like this. Once upon a time Fortune Lounge would have been at this forum explaining their actions. Once upon a time....

imho,
Stanford.

 

[The Dude]

It isn't player fraud. It is casino fraud.

Fortune Lounge was a bit low on cash. There has been a market constriction you know. They decided to take some from the players they invited in with a bonus. They need new players and offering bonuses are the way to do that. But then there are skilled players who can turn figure out advantagous ways to play them.

They simply need players and want to offer bonuses to get them but then, avoid paying some of the winners. And they want only stupid players - no smart ones.

eCOGRA is a shill. I hate to say it, but I believe it. They will back the casinos if they can. And it goes further than that. It really speaks to the lack of integrity of Microgaming as a franchise.

Do yourself a favor. Forget these rogues and switch to poker. If you want to play slots, wait and go to Vegas. Once upon a time there would have been a boycott over stuff like this. Once upon a time Fortune Lounge would have been at this forum explaining their actions. Once upon a time....

imho,
Stanford.

I guess you missed the posting where I mentioned "Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not". This is a relatively dead thread, with only a handful of open cases. Many of the people posting here don't even have a case with this issue.

eCOGRA has been adamant in taking care of these player issues and getting the non fraud players paid. How is this shill-like? You might as well call me a shill as well.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

I guess you missed the posting where I mentioned "Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not". This is a relatively dead thread, with only a handful of open cases. Many of the people posting here don't even have a case with this issue.

eCOGRA has been adamant in taking care of these player issues and getting the non fraud players paid. How is this shill-like? You might as well call me a shill as well.

Maybe a dead thread but a serious ongoing industry problem to players. I do not give a damn about the casinos and maybe worse most casinos do not give damn about the players which maybe you will agree is the nature of the beast. Your post sounds like most casino hosts (aka affiliates in the online industry) who only know how to talk out of both sides of their mouths. I apologize to someone I respect for the nature of my response.

 

[The Dude]

Maybe a dead thread but a serious ongoing industry problem to players. I do not give a damn about the casinos and maybe worse most casinos do not give damn about the players which maybe you will agree is the nature of the beast. Your post sounds like most casino hosts (aka affiliates in the online industry) who only know how to talk out of both sides of their mouths. I apologize to someone I respect for the nature of my response.

I really don't know what you are getting at, perhaps you should refer to some of the posts made in this thread to understand where I am coming from.

I pointed out my standards concerning bonus play:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/locked-account-at-royal-vegas-vegas-towers.16977/

When it was clear that FL was making statements contrary to this, I removed them from Casinomeister's Accredited section.

Before I went on holiday, I posted this statement:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/locked-account-at-royal-vegas-vegas-towers.16977/

A synopsis:

...I expect them to see the light before the next two weeks are over. It's not too late for them to come to their senses. For them to set this sort of precedence can not be tolerated. This is not good for the industry whatsoever....

Now I'm back and going through whatever complaints are leftover. I've been told that the non-fraud complaints are being paid.

Your post sounds like most casino hosts (aka affiliates in the online industry) who only know how to talk out of both sides of their mouths.

So WTF is that supposed to mean?

 

[NASHVEGAS]

[/QUOTE]So WTF is that supposed to mean? [/QUOTE] ..................................................................................................I expressed and stand by my post and you I assume the same, any further discussion would accomplish little so with all due respect there is nothing further to be gained imo.

 

[Vesuvio]

I guess you missed the posting where I mentioned "Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not". This is a relatively dead thread, with only a handful of open cases. Many of the people posting here don't even have a case with this issue.

eCOGRA has been adamant in taking care of these player issues and getting the non fraud players paid.

Actually, I think eCOGRA have been positive here. If they would just come out openly to say that the "catch-all term" is unacceptable and then consistently ignore it when dealing with claims they might yet be a worthwhile organisation.

Fortune Lounge not paying players and leaving it to eCOGRA to sort out their mess, however, is unacceptable. As before, they should have one last chance to apologise and promise not to claim "bonus abuse" as an excuse for non-payment in future. If they don't, they should be rogued (on the basis of their own statements, e-mails and recent practice).

 

[Stanford]

It's about Contrition

I guess you missed the posting where I mentioned "Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not". This is a relatively dead thread, with only a handful of open cases. Many of the people posting here don't even have a case with this issue.

eCOGRA has been adamant in taking care of these player issues and getting the non fraud players paid. How is this shill-like? You might as well call me a shill as well.

I guess you missed the posting where I mentioned "Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not". This is a relatively dead thread, with only a handful of open cases. Many of the people posting here don't even have a case with this issue.

eCOGRA has been adamant in taking care of these player issues and getting the non fraud players paid. How is this shill-like? You might as well call me a shill as well.

Congratulations on getting the players paid. It is getting where you can't go on vacation without things getting out of hand.

You do more than enough for players. But for Fortune Lounge, paying some players who complained isn't enough. There are some key Micro-Gaming Franchises that set standards. Fortune Lounge is certainly one of those. Their standard is different than yours. Their standard is they can take your money if you win and they don't like how you choose to attack the game.

It really is insulting to the gambler. It seems casinos have decided that the games are like Pac Man. We are supposed to put our money in and just enjoy the graphics. Sorry, but that isn't gaming. We are supposed to take their money. They get a shot at ours. They get the percentages. We get to use our heads. That's gambling.

Once upon a time it was bonus abuse because someone took the bonus and just played the minimum bet till they cleared the wagering requirements. Many of us played over the wager requirements and bet bigger just to stop the whining. Casinos were complaining that grinding didn't give them a fair shot at our money. Sure, if a player could control his compulsion he could grind out a win. Most of the time. It is a low variance approach to the game.

Now its bonus abuse when you try to bet big and double up. A high variance approach to the game. I can't tell you the number of times I have tried to double up to the maximum and then throttle back if I hit a nice win. I lost often but then I had some larger wins. With high variance play, the casino has a nice shot at the money - still bonus abuse according to them.

The truth is neither low variance play or high variance play is bonus abuse. But yet we have Fortune Lounge claiming that how you bet your money is a basis for stealing the winnings. Yet on the high variance plays, how many times do they go back and refund the losses?

Remember when Gaming Club did a similar thing? They publicly apologized and acknowledged their error. And at least they refunded losses as well denied winnings right up front. You notice Fortune Lounge didn't do that. Fortune Lounge conduct is much worse than GC example. And Gaming Club fully acknowledged their error. They posted on a public forum the following:

"Notwithstanding that a number of the players who were excluded should not have received the offer in the first place, GC believes that it is incorrect to exclude players after they take up an offer that has been made to them unless such players blatantly breach the published terms and conditions.

GC therefore apologizes to all players for not acting in accordance with this belief, as well as for taking so long to realize and admit its error.

Steps have been taken to rectify the error by crediting all of the excluded accounts with the previously denied bonuses plus an apology bonus of 10% of the denied amount. All of the affected players have been emailed informing them of this and will also receive courtesy telephone calls from the casino."

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Where is the Fortune Lounge apology? What kind of standard do they propose?

And while we are at, I know your standard. You say it right up front. A player takes up a bonus based on the rules at the time and if he plays accordingly, he gets paid. Why is that not eCOGRA's standard? Why do they even allow this "bonus abuse" excuse?

I have seen other published eCOGRA responses in the past, initially ruling in favor of the casino because of "bonus abuse". They are a standard setting organization. They shouldn't waffle on this. You don't.

As it stands, Fortune Lounge claims to be able to withhold monies because of a player's wagering strategy. That's just bizarre. They have not backed off that claim. They should and they should do it publicly. They could do it here.

One more thing. This is a bad time for a premiere MicroGaming franchise to go off the reservation. In another thread we are discussing it is time to write Congress and it probably is. But why try to write congress if the top franchise of the top software provider can willy-nilly just not pay people their winnings? Why support an industry like that? There has to be standards.

Stanford.

 

[The Dude]

Player Update

Just finishing up the PABs and following up on these complaints submitted via Casinomeister to Fortune Lounge. So far I have the following that concern this bonus "abuse" issue:

23 complaints total

4 resolved - players' accounts unlocked and paid

6 fraudsters

13 pending. That's not good since most of these were submitted before my departure on 30 March.

"Non fraud related players have been paid and fraudulent players have not." was what I was told last week when I returned. They have until tomorrow to let me know what is up with the remaining 13 players.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

In another thread we are discussing it is time to write Congress and it probably is. But why try to write congress if the top franchise of the top software provider can willy-nilly just not pay people their winnings? Why support an industry like that? There has to be standards.

Stanford.

And therein lies the paradox, on one hand UIGEA was deceitful,all about money,creates trust issues between citizens and its government,etc. and on the other hand the majority of online casinos are deceptive via whatever the faux pas of the day(T&C'S,bonus abuse,simply not paying,all decisions of management are final,unfair software,etc.), all about money(with affiliates making money off player losses and assuming CM's vacation substitute greedygirl is still associated w/ RX, she has to this day run FL ads on the RX site-agendas just like our government), and thus all kinds of trust issues w/ online casinos. I feel wronged by our goverment but yet the online casino industry may be its own worst enemy..............................CM, I do not know if the above makes any sense to you and helps to clarify my previous posts above which were based on the Macro issues of the online industry and not the Micro issues of FL which for the record I had previously read every post in entirety...................Confusing to me as the ongoing behavior in some circumstances of the US government as well as the online casino industry currently are somewhat comparable. Hopefully, time will rectify some of my issues with both.....NOT ANGRY JUST POSTING THOUGHTS AND NOT SEEKING CONFLICT EITHER ALTHOUGH IT WILL PROBABLY COME.

 

[The Dude]

...It really is insulting to the gambler. It seems casinos have decided that the games are like Pac Man. We are supposed to put our money in and just enjoy the graphics. Sorry, but that isn't gaming. We are supposed to take their money. They get a shot at ours. They get the percentages. We get to use our heads. That's gambling...

Excellent point. Casino managers and operators should never lose sight of this. Running a casino is an ENTERTAINMENT business, not a cash cow. And they are the ones who make the rules and control the percentages.

And while we are at, I know your standard. You say it right up front. A player takes up a bonus based on the rules at the time and if he plays accordingly, he gets paid. Why is that not eCOGRA's standard? Why do they even allow this "bonus abuse" excuse?...

ECOGRA and I are seeing things pretty much eye-to eye on this. I believe they have been told the same thing that I have. That non-fraudsters are being paid and that they are ensuring that this is being done.

This whole episode has been a black mark on the industry. No reputable company should have made the statements that they did concerning abuse, nor should they have exposed themselves to unwanted play. Like Stanford, I looked at Fortune Lounge as one of the pioneering "premiere" MGS casino groups that set the standard. It's a real shame to see this happen. It's not good for anyone involved.

I received further information today on the outstanding complaints submitted via PAB. As I suspected, more fraud. But most of the non-fraud players are being paid. I think only one is still pending. So at least this light at the end of the tunnel is becoming clearer. It's about time to move on...

...but I think there have been some definite lessons learned here. I hope that some of the views of this thread are from casino operators who are getting educated on what the industry expects from a casino. You make the offer - you pay the player.

 

[NextToYou]

Can I currently as an affiliate recommend FL casinos welcome bonuses and confidentially say that they (players) can play the welcome bonus any way the like (big bets or small bets and any game they like - roulette or baccarat or slots or any other which isnt prohibited in T&C)?

I ask this because I can see that FL casinos havent changed much at all their bonus T&Cs after this episode (just a slight modifications in how much certain games count towards WR). So are they still confiscating honest players possible winnings from bonuses under "too intelligent playing style"-excuse or have they moved back to non-rogue behaviour?

 

[halfday]

If you have to ask then the answer is probably "NO".

They are locking accounts in the middle of play now it appears as you can see

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[The Dude]

Can I currently as an affiliate recommend FL casinos welcome bonuses and confidentially say that they (players) can play the welcome bonus any way the like (big bets or small bets and any game they like - roulette or baccarat or slots or any other which isnt prohibited in T&C)?

I ask this because I can see that FL casinos havent changed much at all their bonus T&Cs after this episode (just a slight modifications in how much certain games count towards WR). So are they still confiscating honest players possible winnings from bonuses under "too intelligent playing style"-excuse or have they moved back to non-rogue behaviour?

I will put my neck on the line as say yes - players should be able to play any game they like how they please as long as it falls within the terms and conditions.*

If not, I (and eCOGRA for that matter) need to be aware of any faltering from the rules immediately.

*please note: do not confuse this with a recommendation.

 

[pangloss]

They are locking accounts in the middle of play now it appears as you can see

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https://www.casinomeister.com/online-casinos/reviews/londons/

LondonsCasino rouged for calling players ignorant.


Well it gladens my heart to see the sensitivities of players afforded such a high priority that warrants the offending Casino being sent to the Rogue Pit.

Now what about our friends at Fortune Lounge?? Players aren't so worried about name calling - they are worried about about continuing, unrepentant naked theft from their collective wallets by self-confessed thieves.

LondonsCasino calles players ignorant - got sent to the Rogue Pit at the speed of light.

FL Casinos commit outright theft - takes over a week just to get them off the accredited list let alone getting them anywhere near the Rogue Pit.

What vital piece of information am I missing here? I am smelling rats - BIG ones!!!


...

 

[lojo]

...
What vital piece of information am I missing here? I am smelling rats - BIG ones!!!
...

Well, Pangloss, if you are of the mind, as you are, that all casinos are rigged, it's just another day at the races, huh?

At least you can be glad that no Fortune Lounge Winner Screen shots have been showing up.

 

[The Dude]

https://www.casinomeister.com/online-casinos/reviews/londons/

LondonsCasino rouged for calling players ignorant.


Well it gladens my heart to see the sensitivities of players afforded such a high priority that warrants the offending Casino being sent to the Rogue Pit.

Now what about our friends at Fortune Lounge?? Players aren't so worried about name calling - they are worried about about continuing, unrepentant naked theft from their collective wallets by self-confessed thieves.

LondonsCasino calles players ignorant - got sent to the Rogue Pit at the speed of light.

FL Casinos commit outright theft - takes over a week just to get them off the accredited list let alone getting them anywhere near the Rogue Pit.

What vital piece of information am I missing here? I am smelling rats - BIG ones!!!


...

When you start reading my posts - which includes comprehending them - perhaps you'll understand that this situation was/is complicated due to the massive fraud involved.

There's your big rat - player fraud.

You continue to make assumptions and post statements based on misconceptions. "...got sent to the Rogue Pit at the speed of light." "takes over a week just to get them off the accredited list let alone getting them anywhere near the Rogue Pit..."

Both false/misleading statements. I'd appreciate it if you'd engage your brain before typing. Thanks!

 

[nicobo78]

I sell Mecca system for roulette-genuinewinner

I'm a dickhead spammer :notworthy

 

[Vesuvio]

...this situation was/is complicated due to the massive fraud involved.

There's your big rat - player fraud.

While I understand a willingness to give one of the oldest and largest casino groups some benefit of the doubt, player fraud simply doesn't account for FL's actions.

Fraud, like bonus hunting, has always been around since casinos started offering bonuses. If a deal is good some people will always try to do it more than once. FL know and knew all of this - as I said before, pleading ignorance isn't an option for them.

What they decided to do was to take money from anyone who played their bonuses intelligently. Sure, they knew they'd also catch fraudsters in the net, but they were entirely aware that they'd be cheating a large number of players who met all of their terms and conditions out of winnings. Presumably they calculated that it would be profitable enough to outweigh the inevitable bad publicity. They were probably right, though rogueing them, at least for now, would go some way to upsetting their calculations.

I think we need to establish two points to salvage something from this and similar issues:

1) Unless specifically stated otherwise (e.g. you cannot bet more than x) players can play a bonus in any way they choose, as long as they meet the clearly-stated terms and conditions. There is no such thing as bonus abuse, and using a catch-all bonus abuse clause to deny winnings is rogue.

2) Risk-assessments which rely on probabilities of players being linked are unacceptable as a reason for denying winnings (e.g. playing from the same area with a similar pattern and depositing similar amounts). It's fine if you want to instantly lock some players' accounts before they deposit and accept a bonus, but after that casinos should only be able to deny winnings with incontrovertible proof. The casinos must also be willing to share this proof with the players involved, and not only with organisations like eCOGRA (I don't believe they're worried about alerting fraudsters to fairly obvious procedures - more likely they're worried about exposing themselves to player outrage over privacy infringements).

This second point is becoming more and more important as casinos have moved from looking mainly for genuine fraud (credit-card fraud, and the like), to assessing which players are a financial liability to them. Understandable, of course, from their point of view, but it can't be said enough times that while you offer bonuses with a player edge players who cost you money are not automatically fraudsters, and cannot be treated as such.

 

[The Dude]

I'm just finishing up with the response that I had from FL yesterday. I'm satisfied will all but four of the 23 complaints submitted here. I'm waiting for some clarifications at the moment.

 

[The Dude]

I will put my neck on the line as say yes - players should be able to play any game they like how they please as long as it falls within the terms and conditions.

You know what? I'm going to take back what I said. I'm not going to stick my neck out for these folks again.

Can I currently as an affiliate recommend FL casinos welcome bonuses and confidentially say that they (players) can play the welcome bonus any way the like (big bets or small bets and any game they like - roulette or baccarat or slots or any other which isnt prohibited in T&C)?

I'd say proceed with caution - ask first and get it in writing.

 

[halfday]

https://www.casinomeister.com/online-casinos/reviews/londons/

LondonsCasino rouged for calling players ignorant.


Well it gladens my heart to see the sensitivities of players afforded such a high priority that warrants the offending Casino being sent to the Rogue Pit.

Now what about our friends at Fortune Lounge?? Players aren't so worried about name calling - they are worried about about continuing, unrepentant naked theft from their collective wallets by self-confessed thieves.

LondonsCasino calles players ignorant - got sent to the Rogue Pit at the speed of light.

FL Casinos commit outright theft - takes over a week just to get them off the accredited list let alone getting them anywhere near the Rogue Pit.

What vital piece of information am I missing here? I am smelling rats - BIG ones!!!


...

CM,

You must be in a difficult position. I realize that we don't know all the ins and outs as you do.
I would assume that you are perplexed as to why you are recieving so much criticism on this thread.
You have much respect. I think the reason so much criticism is coming from here is our angle on this situation.
We (I suppose I should not talk for others)...... I see this as blatant theft.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

was in the middle of playing and had not even finished when the casino shut down thier account and kept their winnings AND deposit AND bonus. How can this be anything but rogue? Also, we cannot see the "proof" of player fraud. No doubt there was some fraud but they are not really concerned so much with that according to their own statements. What they ARE concerned with is intelligent play. Using your money wisely and actually trying to win. They have stated this with thier own words here and in private emails and in private messages made public.
From my angle and others apparently, it appears as though they are getting some sort of pass on this outrageous behaviour. It appears as though they are not being held accountable at all. I do understand the initial period because it was surreal that it was happening, but they did not mince their words: it WAS and IS happening and they have it justified in their minds.
In what we have become used to seeing from this forum as far as being held to a high standard appears to be different in this case. That is why there is frustration and criticism. It just doesn't seem right that they are not on the top of the rogue pit from where I'm sitting. Again, I realize that I am in a different seat than you are. I am just sharing the viewpoint from here with you.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

CM,

You must be in a difficult position. I realize that we don't know all the ins and outs as you do.
I would assume that you are perplexed as to why you are recieving so much criticism on this thread.
You have much respect. I think the reason so much criticism is coming from here is our angle on this situation.
We (I suppose I should not talk for others)...... I see this as blatant theft.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

was in the middle of playing and had not even finished when the casino shut down thier account and kept their winnings AND deposit AND bonus. How can this be anything but rogue? Also, we cannot see the "proof" of player fraud. No doubt there was some fraud but they are not really concerned so much with that according to their own statements. What they ARE concerned with is intelligent play. Using your money wisely and actually trying to win. They have stated this with thier own words here and in private emails and in private messages made public.
From my angle and others apparently, it appears as though they are getting some sort of pass on this outrageous behaviour. It appears as though they are not being held accountable at all. I do understand the initial period because it was surreal that it was happening, but they did not mince their words: it WAS and IS happening and they have it justified in their minds.
In what we have become used to seeing from this forum as far as being held to a high standard appears to be different in this case. That is why there is frustration and criticism. It just doesn't seem right that they are not on the top of the rogue pit from where I'm sitting. Again, I realize that I am in a different seat than you are. I am just sharing the viewpoint from here with you.

Well Said.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Perhaps now this thread can be closed.

You know what? I'm going to take back what I said. I'm not going to stick my neck out for these folks again.


I'd say proceed with caution - ask first and get it in writing.

WELL SAID.............what more can be accomplished by leaving thread open? It seems at least for now CM and its members(no clue about FL and no one will be forced to pet the dog unless they chose-rogueing FL can be determined in the future) have the situation in its proper perspective.

 

[The Dude]

This person needs to either contact me or eCOGRA. If she is a legitimate player, she'll get paid. If she'd a fraudster, she won't.

We have to stick by our guns on this, and that is exactly what I am doing. About a quarter of the PABs submitted to me on this so far have been fraudulent. This is strictly forbidden by the terms and conditions and these players deserve nothing in my opinion except a kick in the ass and tossed out the door.

FL has reversed many of the knee-jerk decisions made earlier. So far a number of these players deemed bonus "abusers" have been paid their winnings (or payments are pending).

 

[Stanford]

FL has work to do

We have to stick by our guns on this, and that is exactly what I am doing. About a quarter of the PABs submitted to me on this so far have been fraudulent. This is strictly forbidden by the terms and conditions and these players deserve nothing in my opinion except a kick in the ass and tossed out the door.

FL has reversed many of the knee-jerk decisions made earlier.

Well done on getting players paid. I don’t play anymore – yet. But it is gratifying, none the less.

I think Halfday mentioned you getting criticism. I have not noticed that. I can’t imagine why you would face any criticism

Halfday also indicated he was suspicious of the ones called “fraud”. I can understand that. A very long time ago, I was teaching my daughter to play. She did a couple of deals at FL before losing interest. She was an adult living on her own in another city and I didn’t consider that a breech at the time. She played without incident – the grinding out way.

I mention this because I think it common for players to pollinate gaming to others close to them. It is a natural thing to do. I suspect sometimes they break a rule about using a common computer or something like that. I am not sure that is fraud either. I actually played off a bonus from a Kinko’s once when I was in a pinch. Never thought it might be a common computer – but it could have been. I didn’t think about it.

I think there is real fraud. But I don’t know how you would catch it. If my intent is to deceive the casino about playing from the same machine, I can change all the indicators where they can’t tell. I suspect you don't want the details of how that can be done. But I am think “syndicates” would know how to do that if I do. So I think your “fraud players” are the amateur kind and or those committing an innocent mistake.

The problem that still exists is a premier gaming operation won’t adamantly state they won’t confiscate monies from players because they don’t like betting strategies. This indicates we have more than a knee jerk reaction. I think most of us would applaud FL setting the record straight if they have changed their philosophy. They have before discussed their bonus structure on an open forum. Why not just come here and set things right? Certainly, they must be monitoring this discussion.

The net of this is you have done all you can and with good results. But FL refuses to protect their reputation, the reputation of MicroGaming and the reputation of eCOGRA. Despite eCOGRA’s good work with you in this case, I don’t know how they could allow FL to continue to be a seal holder under the circumstances. As I read your post above, you yourself refuse to “stick your neck out” for them. I don’t blame you. I don’t know why eCOGRA would.

BTW, I received your newsletter regarding and the UIGEA and have circulated it around. It’s that pollination I was talking about - . But this is sure putting a damper on my enthusiasm. I am starting to see a reason to bifurcate poker rooms and internet casinos.

Stanford

 

[jpgah]

I finally received notice that I was going to paid by Fortune Lounge. I havent gotten my check yet, but I guess they at least saw the light and are paying up. I'll post back when my check arrives.

 

[Consty1]

I'm just finishing up with the response that I had from FL yesterday. I'm satisfied will all but four of the 23 complaints submitted here. I'm waiting for some clarifications at the moment.

Any news on the remaining disputes?

 

[The Dude]

Any news on the remaining disputes?

I sat down with FL on Saturday in Amsterdam and discussed this. It's still being looked at.

 

[AudiManinBoro]

heh hey at least you were in a position to win at royal vegas. Im a new member there, made a few deposits, received a few bonuses, lost out big time on every slot i played and can count on one hand the bonuses that came out after several deposits, it doesnt play anywhere near as good as some of my other Mg casinos but hey im probably just unlucky. first time ive heard of anyone complaining about locked out casinso though, from reputation alone, this casino group is sterling!

 

[lojo]

I see at least one FL has updated their terms.

24. Irregular playing patterns will be reviewed before withdrawals are processed. Equal, or hedge betting shall be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes. The Casino reserves the right to withhold any cash-ins where irregular play has occurred to meet play-through requirements.

Is this still a FU clause? Was it always there and I missed it? Got this from VegasPalms.

 

[pangloss]

24. Irregular playing patterns will be reviewed before withdrawals are processed. Equal, or hedge betting shall be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes. The Casino reserves the right to withhold any cash-ins where irregular play has occurred to meet play-through requirements.

Is this still a FU clause? Was it always there and I missed it? Got this from VegasPalms.

Anyone can answer, even Fortune Lounge representatives:

What is "irregular play"?

What is "equal betting"?

What is "hedge betting"?

If the answers aren't immediately obvious then ..........well in truth we all know it is the same old bullshxt from these pirates.


...

 

[cyprean]

Anyone can answer, even Fortune Lounge representatives:

What is "irregular play"?

What is "equal betting"?

What is "hedge betting"?

If the answers aren't immediately obvious then ..........well in truth we all know it is the same old bullshxt from these pirates.


...

I would like to know as well. They surely seem to have the FU clause in use.

I believe that the safest way to avoid "equal betting", "irregular play" and "hedge betting" is to avoid their casino in the first place. I thought "regular play" was a bad thing as "over 4000 players played EXACTLY the same way" but now "irregular play" is on the FU clause as well.

 

[vinylweatherman]

It's still and FU clause because it is way too open for the casino to interpret.
It is better than nothing, but it still only defines two kinds of play patterns, and they are not clearly defined either.

Hedge betting is probably the clearest, being placing a bet on all, or damn near all, possible outcomes such that all variance in a game is eliminated.
An illustration of this would be placing bets on both red and Black at French Roulette, and engaging autoplay for the number of spins required to clear the WR, and then withdrawing.

Equal betting is not clear. Again they could be referring to the above red/black strategy, but "Equal betting" can also be playing a large number of spins on a slot all with the same bet, or hands of Blackjack, table poker, VP, scratchcard. This is so wide a definition they could use this to void paying very large numbers of players they "don't like".

As to other irregular patterns, well, EVERYBODY plays an "irregular" pattern, surely that is what casinos want; us to be playing as individuals for entertainment, and not part of a bonus whoring group, or players club.
Where they have large numbers of players who all play pretty much the same, i.e, a REGULAR pattern of play, they can then be accused of "fraud", or being part of a group or syndicate.

If this is such a problem, why does MG not prevent such hedge betting through the software, they have done at the Bacarrat table, so why not with the other games. (Just try the player & banker hedge at any MG Bacarrat game - you just can't do it!)

 

[lojo]

The whole idea is a bit crazy. They've approved my craps strategy as 'pure', still waiting on a response to my roulette methods. (I use over 70% coverage)

I really don't see, in the long run, how any roulette play could be acceptable or unacceptable (except as part of a larger bonus strategy). If I bet black once aren't my odds the same as betting 17 thirtyfive times? If I put one dollar on a number, or 35 dollars on a color... wtf? it's the same thing over time isn't it? (unless of course I don't have at least 35x35 (or $1225) to play with.

A high risk bet is a high risk bet, and a grinding bet is a grinding bet. I guess they could be used together, but that seems to be clearly termed against via 'even money' betting.

I'll probably start another thread for this after I get a response on my roulette query. But I haven't completely decided whether to take the 400% bonus or not. It doesn't convert to real cash in ten dollar increments: you have to wager the whole bonus 30x before cashing out or you forfeit any winnings. Not sure I like that.

 

[lojo]

I guess I won't be starting another thread. I hit an impasse so I'll just wrap it up here.

Here's how it went: I asked for clarification of 30x playthrough of bonus as there is a caveat on the 200 and 400% where it doesn't actually credit to cash in increments: if you withdraw before 30x bonus you lose all but initial purchase.
Also after reading the new hedge term I asked for clarification and explained my betting styles on craps and roulette. A rep got back to me saying my craps style was fine - gave me a guest account and password, and asked me to log in, play a few a examples of roulette, then contact him and he'd get back.

Got three replies from other CSR and none of them addressed the roulette 'trial' directly. Attn: "Dude" had no affect, so to heck with it.

Just in case anyone wondered, my roulette play is: Heavy on 17, heavy on second 12, heavy on middle line, heavy on black. Max on all splits and neighbors of 17. Coverage 70%+ it's not an all or nothing proposition because (if lucky) you get enough partial pays to hit the big one(s).

If CS would have been more responsive, not only would I have used the rare bonus, but could have shown the 'average' player that there is nothing to fear as long as you communicate. Oh well.

Agreed; if the communication isn't there, the covering term could still be an FU clause. I still trust FL, but I won't be playing any roulette with a bonus.

 

[lojo]

Looking forward to this thread closed, and a fortune lounge rep coming back on board. Prolly not in my tenure as a dysfunctionalist.

I think I might just quit folks, most ya just don't get it.
I tried.

seventeen, think it would have been differn==================

 

[pangloss]

Looking forward to this thread closed, and a fortune lounge rep coming back on board. Prolly not in my tenure as a dysfunctionalist.

I think I might just quit folks, most ya just don't get it.
I tried.

Have another beer.


...

 

[lojo]

Have another beer.


...

I think I'll have another fifty beers bra