Locked Account at Royal Vegas & Vegas Towers

[fortunelounge]

Although Fortune Lounge has always, in the past, been more tolerant towards bonus abusers, unfortunately we cannot continue to do so under current conditions.

After a thorough investigation, we found that our bonuses were being grossly abused, predominantly, on Vegas Palms and Desert Dollar, leading to some severe losses for the casinos. This abuse was being committed by well organized syndicates and individuals and, to my knowledge, no "innocent" player's account was locked.

In the process we locked accounts of players who have abused us and have never returned to the casinos after cashing in and in other cases we locked accounts of players who have pending cash-ins. These cash-ins will not be paid in terms of our Terms and Conditions.

The mail sent to players who were affected is a standard mail and should not have been sent. We apologize for that and an explanatory mail will be sent to all these players today.

The industry has always been plagued by bonus abuse (and a lot of it was our own doing) but this situation cannot continue while operators are trying to survive in a new world and you can expect to see more operators clamping down on bonus abuse in future.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[cbe2869]

WLVRYN, I'll give you credit for at least imagining why the account could be locked-for bonus whoring.

cbe2869 on the other hand said he doesn't want his account(s) opened, that's after he was asked to verify his IDs, so that tells me a) he has something to hide, b) is just on a mission to tarnish the casino reputation by posting here. It's unethical to come on a forum and make a blanket statement that suddenly a lot of accounts are being closed for no reason, so the casino is therefore wrong.

Most if not all the online casinos have terms which state management can lock, suspend or ban accounts at any time, even without reason or notification. Sounds harsh, but sometimes quick decisive action is needed to stamp out bonus hunters, fraudsters (payment methods, etc) and otherwise shady players.

You're a genius. Yeah I've really got something to hide. First off they didn't ask for ID. They said they might request it. Why would I have any reason to care or send them an ID (If I haven't all ready. Can't remember whether I did when I actually played there or not.) when I don't have a dime in there. Hold on Mr. Casino let me send you an ID so you can maybe reopen my account so I can cash out my balance of zero. I hope you don't believe I would actually want my account reopened so I can deposit there again when there are dozens of other Microgaming casinos out there I could choose to play at that actually wouldn't close my account for no reason. Geez, you must walk around with a big giant L on your forehead.

So I guess that if I don't have anything to hide I must just be trying to tarnish their reputation. Here's a clue! They are doing a fine job of that on their own. Who wants to take a wild guess if that casino rep who is on here every day has responded to the PM I sent him or replied in this thread. I'll give you three guesses to the answer and you will probably need all three. Meanwhile more people on this thread and the one at 2+2 are reporting having their accounts closed and some of them actually have money there. Is there really something wrong with not wanting to see people who actually have money there get screwed?

I'm sorry. They just responded as I was typing this. Hope it's good.

 

[Casinomeister]

...Why do you automatically assume i have "whored" them? I have not done anything fraudulent in any way. I don't have an army of garden gnomes with accounts there or anything of that nature...

Sorry guy, I thought that this was you at 2+2:

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Although I whored these 5 months ago and withdrew immediately and never played there again they decided to lock my accounts...So glad I left no money there but hope others that whored them cash out fast before they get locked.

I guess I was wrong, right? Sorry.

...While this has happened to players who have cashed out ages ago, and not played since, making a proper PAB, following the rules, will at least force FL to investigate the handling of this affair, and justify their actions. This will lead to the player community being able to see whether FL are considered to have handled the situation well, or to have made a complete "balls-up" of it...

Thank you. That is what I was trying to get at earlier. I am a stickler when it comes to dealing with casino complaints, and following the rules that are required reading in order for you to join this forum.

I am not player bashing; I am doing my job as administrator. When it comes to making serious complaints or allegations - ignoring the policies of this forum and the rules for submitting complaints will only worsen the situation for everyone involved.

 

[fortunelounge]

So I guess that if I don't have anything to hide I must just be trying to tarnish their reputation. Here's a clue! They are doing a fine job of that on their own. Who wants to take a wild guess if that casino rep who is on here every day has responded to the PM I sent him or replied in this thread. I'll give you three guesses to the answer and you will probably need all three.

I'm sorry. They just responded as I was typing this. Hope it's good.

Although I though that I did respond to your PM, I realize I did not (only responded to the others) as yours only said: "Please see this post:
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post150396"

Thank you. I have seen the post.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge


VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[cbe2869]

Glad to see this response. Some of it I agree with and some I don't.

Although Fortune Lounge has always, in the past, been more tolerant towards bonus abusers, unfortunately we cannot continue to do so under current conditions.

After a thorough investigation, we found that our bonuses were being grossly abused, predominantly, on Vegas Palms and Desert Dollar, leading to some severe losses for the casinos. This abuse was being committed by well organized syndicates and individuals and, to my knowledge, no "innocent" player's account was locked.

Fair enough. If you actually tolerated bonus abusers then it's your own fault though. You could set the play requirements to make your bonuses less attactive to bonus abusers. If you want gamblers and not bonus abusers then your bonuses should reflect that. Closing accounts is not the right answer.

In the process we locked accounts of players who have abused us and have never returned to the casinos after cashing in and in other cases we locked accounts of players who have pending cash-ins. These cash-ins will not be paid in terms of our Terms and Conditions.

This is plain wrong. If a player completes your play requirements that you set then they should be paid if there is not real fraud going on like multiple accounts or stolen funds. Not doing that by quoting some line in your T & Cs that says "We reserve the right to...." is just wrong. You set the play requirements. You should then abide by then. Otherwise in my mind you have zero credibility.

The mail sent to players who were affected is a standard mail and should not have been sent. We apologize for that and an explanatory mail will be sent to all these players today.

Ok that part was good.

The industry has always been plagued by bonus abuse (and a lot of it was our own doing) but this situation cannot continue while operators are trying to survive in a new world and you can expect to see more operators clamping down on bonus abuse in future.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

Agreed. So do the right thing. Pay the people you owe and then make the necessary changes to close the loop holes for bonus whoring. Then you won't have to close accounts except for what we as players see as "real fraud". An individual player who wins because of the promotions and requirements you create shouldn't be treated the same as someone with fifty eleven million accounts. Those are the people you should be after. Less real fraud would mean more money for you and more promotions able to be offered to real players. Otherwise if not willing to fix the problems the right way and you're going to give smart players a postive expectation bonus you shouldn't blame them for taking advantage of it.

 

[cbe2869]

Sorry guy, I thought that this was you at 2+2:

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Although I whored these 5 months ago and withdrew immediately and never played there again they decided to lock my accounts...So glad I left no money there but hope others that whored them cash out fast before they get locked.

I guess I was wrong, right? Sorry.


Thank you. That is what I was trying to get at earlier. I am a stickler when it comes to dealing with casino complaints, and following the rules that are required reading in order for you to join this forum.

I am not player bashing; I am doing my job as administrator. When it comes to making serious complaints or allegations - ignoring the policies of this forum and the rules for submitting complaints will only worsen the situation for everyone involved.

No that was not me. If I were going to whore something I wouldn't post online bragging about it. Never really understood what people got out of doing that.

Sorry for not following the rules. I feel like I did what I thought was right but in the wrong way. I will make sure not to do that again in the future.

 

[cbe2869]

To: Fortune Lounge VP Operations

As I said in an earlier post I liked playing in your poker room and would have or might continue to do so. I am a very casual casino player but I am a degenerate poker player. I would have made you dollars in the poker room if not the casino in the long run.

A situation like this though makes me concerned about the safety of my money even in the poker room. With today's gambling climate my chief concern is the safety of my money. There are tons of microgaming skins I could play at so I will play where I feel the most comfortable. Up until now I felt as though Royal Vegas/PokerTime was one of the oldest and most respectable Prima sites. Now though there is some doubt in my mind. I will play where I am treated the best and feel my money is safest plain and simple. I don't want to have to worry about trying to login and my account is frozen with part of my bankroll in it. If I wanted to throw my bankroll away I would just stick it in a Future Bet skin.

As far as I know all the accounts frozen were casino and not poker accounts but with you operating both there is still somewhat of a concern in my mind. It's not out of the realm of possibility for an operator to think poker players are abusing them. Just look at the situation going on now with the microgaming poker skin nordic bet. You are not affiliated with that situation at all but the players there think the operator is screwing them and vice versa.

Make your legitimate players feel safe and in the long run you will reap the rewards.

 

[maaritk]

7 sultans

I am having problems at Fortune Lounge as well. I sent a private message to the Casino Representative 'Fortunelounge' here. He wrote me back quickly and told me that they had banned a lot of players on friday - and if my account showed any signs of abuse then I would banned too.

I deposited yesterday 150 € @ 7sultans. I was lucky at first, but then very unlucky! While playing, after about 30 minutes the connection dropped. I reconnected only to find out that my account was locked. I start to get worried as I had over €1100 in my account..

Then I received an e-mail from Fortune Lounge that they had made an investigation and chosen to lock me and snatch my winnings! I was wondering how 'thorough' this investigation was? What was the reasoning behind this lock out? I think I did not break any of their rules. I played slots and roulette. I dont think they would refund my losses if I had lost.

This is my first time I have ever played at a Fortune Lounge casino, and I thought Microgaming casinos should be reliable. I made some research prior depositing. I was apparently dead wrong! I just lost over €1100. I hope these issues are solved somehow!

One thing is sure, I am never going to deposit at a Fortune Lounge casino ever again!

 

[Casinomeister]

I am having problems at Fortune Lounge as well. I sent a private message to the affiliate manager here. He wrote me back quickly and told me that they had banned a lot of players on friday - and if my account showed any signs of abuse then I would banned too.

FortuneLonge is not the aff manager. He's the VP of operations. I guess you meant him. (the aff manager is Fortune)

Please PAB. If anybody wants me to check into this personally you must first PAB. So far I have none - zilch.

 

[maaritk]

FortuneLonge is not the aff manager. He's the VP of operations. I guess you meant him. (the aff manager is Fortune)

Please PAB. If anybody wants me to check into this personally you must first PAB. So far I have none - zilch.

Thanks! I contacted you and PAB.

 

[Vesuvio]

Although Fortune Lounge has always, in the past, been more tolerant towards bonus abusers, unfortunately we cannot continue to do so under current conditions.

You don't really mean "bonus abusers" - you mean people who take you up on your offers, meet the terms and withdraw. Perfectly understandable that you don't like winners, but you set the terms of your offers.

After a thorough investigation, we found that our bonuses were being grossly abused, predominantly, on Vegas Palms and Desert Dollar, leading to some severe losses for the casinos. This abuse was being committed by well organized syndicates and individuals and, to my knowledge, no "innocent" player's account was locked.

"Well organized syndicates" generally means no more than people reading the same forums and trying the same offers. It's just the same if someone posts about a casino with great new slots on here and a few dozen choose to play there after reading it - except of course you welcome those players with open arms.

As a general comment, it's hard to see how no "innocent" players would be affected - what you call bonus abuse is really no different to the pattern of play you'd find naturally from an even moderately clued-up player trying out various casinos.

In the process we locked accounts of players who have abused us and have never returned to the casinos after cashing in and in other cases we locked accounts of players who have pending cash-ins. These cash-ins will not be paid in terms of our Terms and Conditions.

Locking accounts of players you don't care to have at your casinos is fine - refusing to pay cash-ins after players met your terms is fraud. (Falling back on your "we can do whatever we like" term is the sure sign of a rogue - and if it became the rule it would fully justify all of the US government's actions with regard to the industry)

The industry has always been plagued by bonus abuse (and a lot of it was our own doing)...

That's something of an understatement. If you offer bonuses players will take you up on them and try to win. It's a game as you try to make the players take you up on them and lose, but the players certainly aren't abusing the casinos any more than you're abusing them.

In practical terms, if instead of altering your bonuses or finding a new business model you decide simply to steal money when players win your reputation will be in tatters. You'll drive business away and deserve everything you get.

 

[Tagdog]

Hi I played at Royal Vegas Casino and Platimum play in June last year. I took the signup bonuses and lost on both accounts despite playing in a profitable way. As I am clearly a bonus abuser would fortune lounge comsider locking my accounts and refunding my deposits please.

 

[Casinomeister]

It may be more than just bonus "abuse". Some casinos consider player fraud (shared accounts, bogus player info, etc.) as bonus "abuse". I'm trying to get beyond the semantics and find out exactly what happened. I've been told that player fraud is involved - but I'm making an educated guess that not all these accounts are connected with fraudulent activity.

So far only one player has submitted a complaint through me. I'm waiting for a possible 4000 more

 

[fortunelounge]

I am having problems at Fortune Lounge as well. I sent a private message to the Casino Representative 'Fortunelounge' here. He wrote me back quickly and told me that they had banned a lot of players on friday - and if my account showed any signs of abuse then I would banned too.

I deposited yesterday 150 @ 7sultans. I was lucky at first, but then very unlucky! While playing, after about 30 minutes the connection dropped. I reconnected only to find out that my account was locked. I start to get worried as I had over 1100 in my account..

Then I received an e-mail from Fortune Lounge that they had made an investigation and chosen to lock me and snatch my winnings! I was wondering how 'thorough' this investigation was? What was the reasoning behind this lock out? I think I did not break any of their rules. I played slots and roulette. I dont think they would refund my losses if I had lost.

This is my first time I have ever played at a Fortune Lounge casino, and I thought Microgaming casinos should be reliable. I made some research prior depositing. I was apparently dead wrong! I just lost over 1100. I hope these issues are solved somehow!

One thing is sure, I am never going to deposit at a Fortune Lounge casino ever again!

Although I did promise in the PM that I will get back to you, now that this is a posting I might as well answer here.

Apart from abusing our bonus, your account is linked through identifiers to several other players who have displayed exactly the same pattern.

The amount you stated that you had "lost" is incorrect and we have arranged for your purchase of 150 to be refunded.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[BJD]

Not sure if PM is a good idea. I sent their rep a PM back on December 7th and it is still showing as unread.

An update: Today I received a PM from their VP Operations referencing my post and advising me that he has been unable to open my PM from back in December. He asked me to contact him directly via email.

Hopefully his or her involvement will facilitate my PAB from December 14th that is still pending being completed.

 

[fortunelounge]

You don't really mean "bonus abusers" - you mean people who take you up on your offers, meet the terms and withdraw. Perfectly understandable that you don't like winners, but you set the terms of your offers..

I do mean "bonus abusers". We do not, and have not had, issues with players who take us up on our offers, try out the different games in our casinos and withdraw. We have never had any issue with real, legitimate winners either.

This is a case where players purchase the minium required to receive the offer (no problem with this) wager the full amount on one hand of a low risk game and, if they win, proceed to play only French Roulette, betting on red or black / odds or evens to meet the wagering requirements and then to cash in and disappear. This is nothing else than bonus abuse, call it what you like.

"Well organized syndicates" generally means no more than people reading the same forums and trying the same offers. It's just the same if someone posts about a casino with great new slots on here and a few dozen choose to play there after reading it - except of course you welcome those players with open arms.

Thank you for your version. We regard syndicates as players linked by certain identifiers who play from the same area and display the same patterns.

As a general comment, it's hard to see how no "innocent" players would be affected - what you call bonus abuse is really no different to the pattern of play you'd find naturally from an even moderately clued-up player trying out various casinos..

No inncocent players were affected. It will be totally insane of us to throw away good (potential) business. Moderately clued-up players do not all display exactly the same patterns as in this case.

Locking accounts of players you don't care to have at your casinos is fine - refusing to pay cash-ins after players met your terms is fraud. (Falling back on your "we can do whatever we like" term is the sure sign of a rogue - and if it became the rule it would fully justify all of the US government's actions with regard to the industry)That's something of an understatement. If you offer bonuses players will take you up on them and try to win. It's a game as you try to make the players take you up on them and lose, but the players certainly aren't abusing the casinos any more than you're abusing them.

If a bank does not have metal detectors it doesn't justify why the bank should be robbed.

Bonuses are there to attract real, honest, bona fide players. It should be our right to exclude players who clearly display that they are only interested in taking advantage of a free money offer with no intention to return.

We have never practiced "we can do whatever we like" You seem to advocate this for players.

In practical terms, if instead of altering your bonuses or finding a new business model you decide simply to steal money when players win your reputation will be in tatters. You'll drive business away and deserve everything you get.

If we (and other operators) keep on allowing bonus abuse to this extent, we won't have a business.

Our Terms and Conditions are very explicit on this issue. It is every player's responsibility to read, understand and agree to these Terms and Conditions and no player is allowed to open an account unless he/she agrees to these terms. If someone is not happy with a particular term or condition, then the logical thing to do is to go and find a casino that does not have such a term.
Terms and Conditions are there to protect players and casino alike.

It boggles my mind then that, when we enforce these terms, it becomes an issue and we are wrong. We are then liars and thieves and the player is the victim.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[winbig]

to meet the wagering requirements and then to cash in and disappear. This is nothing else than bonus abuse, call it what you like.

How do you know they won't be back? There's no way to prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

That scenario is similar to insurance companies in the USA charging 2x the normal rate to their (potential) customers that have bad credit - even if they have a excellent driving history. They claim that people with bad credit are more of a risk to have claims, which is untrue.

You can claim that these people won't be back, judging by past experience..That doesn't mean that every single player that exhibits this behaviour won't be back!

And of course, the bottom line is this:

If the player has met the WR without breaking YOUR T&C, pay them -- then lock their account if you don't want their future business. Not the other way around!

 

[Tagdog]

I do mean "bonus abusers". We do not, and have not had, issues with players who take us up on our offers, try out the different games in our casinos and withdraw. We have never had any issue with real, legitimate winners either.

This is a case where players purchase the minium required to receive the offer (no problem with this) wager the full amount on one hand of a low risk game and, if they win, proceed to play only French Roulette, betting on red or black / odds or evens to meet the wagering requirements and then to cash in and disappear. This is nothing else than bonus abuse, call it what you like.

I call this meeting the criteria of your bonus. If they simultaneously covered red and black I would call that bonus abuse, if they only bet red or only bet black then they're playing an allowed game with a risk, write french roulette out of the terms and conditions if you dont want people playing it.

 

[fortunelounge]

How do you know they won't be back? There's no way to prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Of all accounts locked, 91% have already displayed this behavior. Seems like a good measurement to me - especially if the remaining 9% displayed the same exact pattern in terms of purchasing, playing and cashing in.

If you read other forums you will see players actually posting that they deliberately abused us.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[thetic]

How do you know they won't be back? There's no way to prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Of all accounts locked, 91% have already displayed this behavior. Seems like a good measurement to me - especially if the remaining 9% displayed the same exact pattern in terms of purchasing, playing and cashing in.

If you read other forums you will see players actually posting that they deliberately abused us.

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

While it might be quite apparent that you are suffering from what you see as bonus abuse, this is players following YOUR terms & conditions so it is not abuse whether or not they brag about abusing/scalping etc at your casino. As such you should pay them.

I take it you are returning all the deposits from those you see as Bonus Abusers who bet their entire bonus & deposit on 1 hand and lost that hand.

If you are concerned about people wagering entire bonus & deposit on blackjack/baccarat etc. and then grinding on French Roulette if they win, change the terms & conditions to exclude this. It should not take too much intelligence to work out a system to prevent this while still having a bonus that gives honest players a chance to play the games.

For example put a clause in that says that no wager greater than a certain value (maybe something like $20 on a 100% match up to $100 bonus) can be done while playing with bonus.

 

[NextToYou]

As I have said earlier in power bet thread, there is not such thing as bonus abuse. There is just wagering requirements some casino decides to offer and if player completes them, then there can not be any problem.

So change the terms for christ sake if you dont like some kind of a playing pattern! How hard is that?! Confiscating winnings played under bonus terms you have decided to offer is simply rogue behaviour. I hope you get rogued if you dont pay all the players.

 

[maaritk]

I finally received an explanation why they locked me out. They also snatched my winnings of over €1100.

we have reviewed your 7Sultans casino account and see that you have made the minimum purchase to receive the maximum sign up bonus. We also see that you only made use of French Roulette to meet the wagering requirements for the bonus.

Your play on French Roulette was based on wagering on Black. Wagering on Black or Red will result in no loss or win for either the Player or the Casino.

The main outcome is the increased wagering meeting the wagering required on the bonus money with no change to the balance, (unless a Zero is landed).

Therefore there is no chance for the casino to win back its bonus allocated or the purchase amount from the player.

There was no intention to play at the Casino, and only to cashin the bonus money.

I would like to make corrections: I deposited the maximum to get the maximum bonus. It was 150€. Then I just did not bet on black, I bet on Black Even and 19-36 at the same time. This was risky, because I had over €1205 balance at best but then I dropped down to near €1100 pretty quickly. I also played other games. I played some video slots. I didnt have so much luck in those so I switched back to roulette. That is when they locked me out.

If roulette was not allowed why it didn't say so in the terms & conditions? I feel like being robbed... in the terms & conditions it says roulette counts 50% and american 100%..

 

[BBKPoker]

Great, one of the few remaining credible groups for US players decides to hop directly into the toilet.

The invocation of the old "we reserve the right to..." clause by <b>ANY</b> casino in defense of their decision to revoke winnings on bonuses where the terms of the bonus have been appropriately met with no explanation as to why they are being revoked aside from a vague reference to these mysterious "identifiers" should be a warning bell for <b>all</b> players to run away as fast as they can and not play there.

My accounts are still open there as far as I'm aware (at least they haven't emailed me if they *have* closed them) but I'm certainly not playing there given the distasteful, condescending, and surprisingly combatative way they've been addressing legitimate concerns players have been posting here. Good thing I have a few other options for now, and since moving to the UK in January, I will have even better options shortly.

 

[mikepipe]

I finally received an explanation why they locked me out. They also snatched my winnings of over €1100.



I would like to make corrections: I deposited the maximum to get the maximum bonus. It was 150€. Then I just did not bet on black, I bet on Black Even and 19-36 at the same time. This was risky, because I had over €1205 balance at best but then I dropped down to near €1100 pretty quickly. I also played other games. I played some video slots. I didnt have so much luck in those so I switched back to roulette. That is when they locked me out.

If roulette was not allowed why it didn't say so in the terms & conditions? I feel like being robbed... in the terms & conditions it says roulette counts 50% and american 100%..

Some ugly points:
at first: even if fortunelounge may have the right, to think, the play was unfair, they should learn the very basics of probability.
If one bets black OR red - there is of course a risk for player and casino.
How much house edge do you want, much more than just this one number?

even if a player may have the right to deposit the minimum required for the maximum bonus - the other point (linked accounts, suspicious patterns) is by far more severe.
And if its true what fortunelounge says, the player should be glad to have his deposit back and remain silent.
I know FL as an honest group and i am quite positive FL can circumstantiate, what he claimed.

 

[BBKPoker]

Some ugly points:
at first: even if fortunelounge may have the right, to think, the play was unfair, they should learn the very basics of probability.
If one bets black OR red - there is of course a risk for player and casino.
How much house edge do you want, much more than just this one number?

even if a player may have the right to deposit the minimum required for the maximum bonus - the other point (linked accounts, suspicious patterns) is by far more severe.
And if its true what fortunelounge says, the player should be glad to have his deposit back and remain silent.
I know FL as an honest group and i am quite positive FL can circumstantiate, what he claimed.

Saying that betting outside bets such as black/red, odd/even or high/low doesn't create any or win for the casino or player is a flat out lie as well. Did they forget that they have a 0 on their roulette wheel? According to Wizard of Odds:

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outside bets on Microgaming French Roulette have a house edge of 1.35%.

The player did not bet red/black at the same time, or odd/even at the sametime, or high/low at the sametime, so I don't see where they are going with this fictious argument.