Locked Account at Royal Vegas & Vegas Towers

JALaw

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Location
Sandy, UT
Locked Account at Royal Vegas, Vegas Towers, etc

It's mighty unfortunate that the casino representative fails to understand that the players in question met the terms and conditions set forth by the casinos. They should demand documentation on the players to avoid gnomes, pay everyone what they're owed, unlock the accounts and get on with running a business.

The concerns about "bonus abuse" should be addressed by changing the terms and conditions of the bonus such that it is less attractive, possibly just break-even EV-wise.
That will chase away the bonus whores, but still attract casual players, and possibly attract some long term loyal players. I presume that is the kind of client mix the casinos actually want.

As long as casinos provide bonuses which are +EV, there will be individuals who look for the method which maximizes their EV and play the bonus in that manner. The casinos have nobody to blame but themselves when the casino loses money on +EV bonuses. Banning intelligent players (or those who at least do internet searches for maximizing the EV from a bonus) is not the solution -- it just generates negative press at a time when the industry can least afford it.

In my particular case I have been banned from a handful of the fortune lounge casinos for aggressively playing bonuses, which isn't a big deal to me or likely the casinos. However, due to the banning, I will boycott any online poker rooms associated with fortune lounge -- which is definitely -EV for fortune lounge (and me). I drop more in rake these days in a month than I've ever made on a casino bonus.



jeff
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Point to be made

Just so we're straight here - the bottom line is this, and this applies to all casinos across the board.

If the casino operation does not approve in the manner in which the player plays, then they have every right to lock a player's account just so this is outlined in the terms and conditions.

If fraudulent activity is detected (multiple accounts, faked IDs, bogus personal info, etc.) then winnings should be confiscated since these would be considered bogus accounts.

If the player account is legit, the wagering requirements are met, and the terms and conditions are not breached, then winnings should be paid.
 

powerball

Non-Gambler
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Location
Norway
I am not the only one beeing banned from this casinogroup I see.. (I have my own thread in the "bonus-complaint" forum)

If you dont like people gambling on one big bet of baccarat, why don't you put it in your T&C? I have my own theory on this. And that is that you now have created a win\win situation for yourself in a very sneaky way. If the so called "bonus abuser" ends up loosing, you get his money, if he "wins", you lock his account and also get his money.

If a bank does not have metal detectors it doesn't justify why the bank should be robbed.

What is the logic behind this? If the bank doesnt have a metaldetector it is still illegal to "rob" the bank as you say it. That is because the LAWS (lets call it societies terms and conditions) says that it is illegal to "rob" people. The casinos sets up their own laws in the form of terms and conditions. When these laws don't prohibit people to gamble it up with the bonus, then they can not be judged for doing so.

In Norway we have a legal paragraph saying "You cannot be judged without authority of the law". Meaning you cannot be judged for something one party claims is a criminal act, when it is not any laws against it.

It is the same situation in this case. The Casino makes the laws in form of terms and conditions. If a player havent broken these, the player can neither be judged for it.
 

BBKPoker

Dormant Account
PABrogue3
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Location
Edinburgh, Seattle, Vancouver BC, Auckland
Just so we're straight here - the bottom line is this, and this applies to all casinos across the board.

If the casino operation does not approve in the manner in which the player plays, then they have every right to lock a player's account just so this is outlined in the terms and conditions.

If fraudulent activity is detected (multiple accounts, faked IDs, bogus personal info, etc.) then winnings should be confiscated since these would be considered bogus accounts.

If the player account is legit, the wagering requirements are met, and the terms and conditions are not breached, then winnings should be paid.

Agreed, but at least one player has posted a response from the casino that is an objection to his manner of play (which does not breach their terms and conditions) rather than actual fraudulent activity (multiple accounts, bogus info, etc). That is a contemptible way of doing business on any casino's part, and it's even more appalling when it's defended as a legitimate reason to confiscate winnings by a group that has previously been a model for operating as an honest establishment. Very depressing action to see from a casino group that is going to quickly lose it's credibility if it thinks that kind of argument is going to fly anywhere.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Agreed, but at least one player has posted a response from the casino that is an objection to his manner of play ...
Yeah, I know. I'm hoping by tomorrow sometime things might be a bit more clearer.
 

JALaw

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Location
Sandy, UT
Fortune Lounge Group

Yeah, I know. I'm hoping by tomorrow sometime things might be a bit more clearer.

It's more than one player that wasn't committing any kind of fraud. Did I aggressively play their bonus? absolutely (can't remember if I won or lost at this point). But I _never_ engaged in any fraudulent activity.

I personally don't care that my account was closed permanently, but their actions reflect badly upon their company and online gaming as a whole. For online gaming to survive it must be seen as legitimate and this kind of behavior undermines the legitimacy of online gaming in a significant way.

Jeff
 

Vesuvio

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Location
UK
Apologies for repeating what others have said, but for the record:
This is a case where players purchase the minium required to receive the offer (no problem with this) wager the full amount on one hand of a low risk game and, if they win, proceed to play only French Roulette, betting on red or black / odds or evens to meet the wagering requirements and then to cash in and disappear. This is nothing else than bonus abuse, call it what you like.
No, that's simply a player trying to make the most of a bonus. Alter the rules, if it's a problem for you. Note, betting one hand on a "low risk" game isn't low risk and betting on red "or" black at roulette is still risking your balance at a high house edge.
Thank you for your version. We regard syndicates as players linked by certain identifiers who play from the same area and display the same patterns.
Fair enough and good to have your definition, though obviously perfectly legitimate players can also play in the same area with a similar pattern of play. The bottom line is you can exclude who you like but must have proof of fraud to confiscate funds.
If a bank does not have metal detectors it doesn't justify why the bank should be robbed.
Comparing yourself to a bank is apt, but it's not a robbery if you lose money when players take up your offers and win - any more than it's a robbery if they take up the offers and lose.
Bonuses are there to attract real, honest, bona fide players. It should be our right to exclude players who clearly display that they are only interested in taking advantage of a free money offer with no intention to return.
I don't dispute your right to exclude players - of course you can. But if your terms have been met and no fraud committed you have to pay out winnings first. (in passing, "free money" is a comical misnomer if even the players who are "robbing" you are more likely to lose their deposit than win when they play)
We have never practiced "we can do whatever we like" You seem to advocate this for players.
The player needs to meet your terms (the clearcut ones, not the catch-all) and commit no fraud. The only "whatever they like" I'm advocating is that players can play a bonus how they choose - big hands, small hands, having a target and stopping when they reach it, or simply playing for fun until they lose their balance.
If we (and other operators) keep on allowing bonus abuse to this extent, we won't have a business.
You set the terms of the game - you can change your offers or use a different business model if you don't like the results. You can't justify committing a crime by claiming it's the best business decision! (though you're not the first casino group to try)
Our Terms and Conditions are very explicit on this issue. It is every player's responsibility to read, understand and agree to these Terms and Conditions and no player is allowed to open an account unless he/she agrees to these terms. If someone is not happy with a particular term or condition, then the logical thing to do is to go and find a casino that does not have such a term.
Terms and Conditions are there to protect players and casino alike.
Taken to it's logical conclusion that would sound the death knell for the online casino industry. All casinos have something similar written into their terms but the fine line between the industry being reputable and simply criminal is that only the rogue outfits have enforced it - a rational player either has to consider the catch-all term unenforcable nonsense, or not play. It's worth noting that such terms would have zero legal weight in a properly regulated industry/jurisdiction.
It boggles my mind then that, when we enforce these terms, it becomes an issue and we are wrong. We are then liars and thieves and the player is the victim.
Spare us the pretense that you thought you could get away with what you're doing without a response. No doubt you calculated that the fraudulently obtained funds would outweigh the bad publicity - all players can do is try and tip the scales of the calculation on forums like this one.
 

GOCC

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Location
UK
Just checked my email and I have 3 accounts locked with this group that I have only used for their sign up offer.

So it can only be if you win with the bonus, they dont want you
 

wangpoker

Dormant Account
webmeister
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Location
Ontario/Canada
I have knew this method to abuse the bonus for a long time.
VPL casinos have 100% or 150% or 200% or 300% signup bonuses.
One account can earn about 100-300 bucks at low risk in this group.
This method applys to Fortune Lounge and other groups.

Whose fault? MG's new bonus system? players' greed?

I never tried this method although it works.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Bonus

The method described is one specific method of "advantage play". It is not any kind of "abuse", bonus or otherwise, provided the player has not broken rules about multiple accounts or ID fraud.

The casino makes these offers to gain players. EXISTING players of one or two of their casinos are vigorously encouraged to play at the others, WITH THE BONUS. If the casino sees a player use this method at one casino, why not instantly bar them from any of the others before they get a chance to turn a very high risk advantage play method into a very low risk near certain winner.
There is nothing to stop the casino from moving French Roulette to the 10% weighting level, instead of the standard 50% for tables. This would remove the opportunity to grind out a WR profitably, even after a one off high risk bet.
The faults are mathematical, whoever implemented these promotions was not sufficiently qualified, and management let this pass for too long because presumably they did not want to alienate players. They waited too long, and have now taken severe and delayed action without there being any change in the terms and conditions to scare off further advantage players.

At least we have an admission that the E-mail suggesting fraud should not have been sent out to mere "bonus abusers".

Now this has been put out in the open, how on earth can future players be certain that simply doing their best to beat the house will not get them labelled as an abuser. What if they deposit the max, play a slot with a chunky bet size and hit an early bonus round, then play other slots at a much smaller bet to meet WR and end up with a win - is this "abuse", or just "luck".

The only real defence is to implement a system whereby a bonus claim is denied, and an explanation given that the player has not demonstrated a desire to play after receiving an earlier bonus. This system should get rid of "bonus abusers" at the outset, but would NOT result in the casino resorting to confiscation of winnings after the fact - the one act that causes the most bad feeling in these disputed cases.

Mass closing of acounts where "the horse has already bolted" serves no purpose other than to blow the issue out of necessary proportion - this thread began not with players not receiving cash-ins, but with players suddenly being accused of "suspicious activity" on what they took to be long dead accounts. IF these accounts had been simply left open, no further "abuse" could have happened from them, and there would have been no fuss on this forum. T & C could have been changed to prevent more than one automatic bonus over the entire group (others only by invitation and personal claim), and French Roulette wager weighting (an anomaly within EZBonus), reset to reflect the favourable house edge on the even money bets. The initial big bet could even be dealt with by restricting the max bet size on new accounts. This has been demonstrated as being possible under MG by the fact that when Casino Action used separate bonus accounts this is exactly how they dealt with this, by limiting the bets on these even money shots to $100, whereas in the real account of the same casino they were set to $500.
 

largeeyes

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Location
North America
Actually, this argument works in the players favor. Here in the states, quite a few banks offer sign up bonuses, especially in this age of negative savings rates. They have rules that are well below what is profitable to the bank, like Deposit $1500, get $200 value bonus, only needing to leave the money there a few months. If you do take it out, they don't label you an abuser. This isn't robbing the bank, it's following the rules. Tsk tsk fortune lounge.

I am not the only one beeing banned from this casinogroup I see.. (I have my own thread in the "bonus-complaint" forum)

If you dont like people gambling on one big bet of baccarat, why don't you put it in your T&C? I have my own theory on this. And that is that you now have created a win\win situation for yourself in a very sneaky way. If the so called "bonus abuser" ends up loosing, you get his money, if he "wins", you lock his account and also get his money.



What is the logic behind this? If the bank doesnt have a metaldetector it is still illegal to "rob" the bank as you say it. That is because the LAWS (lets call it societies terms and conditions) says that it is illegal to "rob" people. The casinos sets up their own laws in the form of terms and conditions. When these laws don't prohibit people to gamble it up with the bonus, then they can not be judged for doing so.

In Norway we have a legal paragraph saying "You cannot be judged without authority of the law". Meaning you cannot be judged for something one party claims is a criminal act, when it is not any laws against it.

It is the same situation in this case. The Casino makes the laws in form of terms and conditions. If a player havent broken these, the player can neither be judged for it.
 

cyprean

Banned User
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Location
Sun/Moon
Just so we're straight here - the bottom line is this, and this applies to all casinos across the board.

If the casino operation does not approve in the manner in which the player plays, then they have every right to lock a player's account just so this is outlined in the terms and conditions.

If fraudulent activity is detected (multiple accounts, faked IDs, bogus personal info, etc.) then winnings should be confiscated since these would be considered bogus accounts.

If the player account is legit, the wagering requirements are met, and the terms and conditions are not breached, then winnings should be paid.

Touche. Couldn't have said it better myself.

If there has been real breaches of security such as fake information and credit card frauds - then I understand the bannings. But if legit players who have followed T&Cs are getting slaughtered here and winnings forfeited then that casino actions are rogue and clearly unacceptable. To me it seems like the latter is the case here.
 

powerball

Non-Gambler
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Location
Norway
To me it seems like the latter is the case here.

That is atleast the situation in my case. I can take a picture of myself holding up my ID, in front of the house were I live, with the house number showing, if that is what it takes..
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Quite

Actually, this argument works in the players favor. Here in the states, quite a few banks offer sign up bonuses, especially in this age of negative savings rates. They have rules that are well below what is profitable to the bank, like Deposit $1500, get $200 value bonus, only needing to leave the money there a few months. If you do take it out, they don't label you an abuser. This isn't robbing the bank, it's following the rules. Tsk tsk fortune lounge.

Banks have done that here, but best of all are the credit cards. They used to offer 0% deals on balance transfers for as long as 18 months in a few cases. The "advantage play" here was to take out one card, transfer the biggest balance you could from another card, and put the money that would have been used to pay it off into a savings account. As each offer comes to an end, the next card is applied for, and the process begins again. The net gain was around 4% of whatever limit you could get. Up to 20,000 was easy, but lately the banks have tightened up. I was banned from MBNA even before I had opened my first account:D (Pity, they had great bonuses:) )

I have "abused a sign-up bonus" at First Direct, but at least I went on to deposit more, and gave them some "meaningful action" with these deposits by paying off my Barclaycard, and taking out, and using, their credit card.

It is still possible to "whore" the sign-up offers at the Gas and Electricity utilities, and at a few phone providers.

NPower were offering 50 and 6 free low energy lightbulbs, but I have already done them. I am currently on PowerGen, but there is a new tranche of offers coming out this spring, just need to suck the remaining value from PowerGen - more free lightbulbs:D

I have also made 20 per month from NTL (now Virgin Media), by explaining how I only ever watched SKY ONE, and might as well get rid of the telly box now it has gone and download Stargate over the broadband or rent the DVD.

What hapened to all this cash?

Just lost it at All Slots:oops:
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
...Mass closing of acounts where "the horse has already bolted" serves no purpose other than to blow the issue out of necessary proportion - this thread began not with players not receiving cash-ins, but with players suddenly being accused of "suspicious activity" on what they took to be long dead accounts...
Good point. But we're not 100% privy to what exactly initiated the locking of 4000 accounts. I am making an assumption that many are dormant, never to be used again. Please bear in mind that we do not have all the facts from both sides.

So far only only three PABs concerning this issue. Two Norwegians, and one Fin. No US or UK players yet.
 

vincenski

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Location
Holland
Well my account at 777 sultans and Desert Dollar was locked too. Desert Dollar with 200 in my cash balance. I also got this email this morning:

Thank you for your email.

I am sending this e-mail in regards to your recent request concerning the status of your locked Desert Dollar account.

The decision that was made is based on promotional abuse being identified on the account. We can unfortunately not provide you with the specific details behind the process of the promotional abuse being identified as this would negatively impact the security of the casino and its processes.

As per the terms and conditions, if the account is locked by the casino for any such activity, any balance on the account including purchases, free money, bonuses and winnings will be forfeit.

I trust that you will find the above information of use and would like to thank you for your understanding in regards to this matter.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require any further assistance.

Thank you for playing with Fortune Lounge.

Kind regards

Jake

Casino Support

Where the Player comes First



Should I place a PAB for this??
 

GForceT1

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Location
Netherlands
Well my account at 777 sultans and Desert Dollar was locked too. Desert Dollar with 200 in my cash balance. I also got this email this morning:

Thank you for your email.

I am sending this e-mail in regards to your recent request concerning the status of your locked Desert Dollar account.

The decision that was made is based on promotional abuse being identified on the account. We can unfortunately not provide you with the specific details behind the process of the promotional abuse being identified as this would negatively impact the security of the casino and its processes.

As per the terms and conditions, if the account is locked by the casino for any such activity, any balance on the account including purchases, free money, bonuses and winnings will be forfeit.

I trust that you will find the above information of use and would like to thank you for your understanding in regards to this matter.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require any further assistance.

Thank you for playing with Fortune Lounge.

Kind regards

Jake

Casino Support

Where the Player comes First



Should I place a PAB for this??


:lolup: that last sentence

My accounts are not closed. I also made a big baccarat bet in the beginning, because I want to maximize my bonus. However I LOST this bet.
Fortunelounge could you return my deposit and lock me to?? Or you only do that to winners? :eek2:

Vincenski if you want CM to go after your money, you should PAB. I think you should PAB anyway so there is a ground for a thorough investigation of this.
 

cyprean

Banned User
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Location
Sun/Moon
Well my account at 777 sultans and Desert Dollar was locked too. Desert Dollar with 200 in my cash balance. I also got this email this morning:

Should I place a PAB for this??

Please PAB. Then we will learn a little more about the gravity of these lockdowns. Especially when they took 200 from your cash balance. Please file eCogra complaint also.
 

TeddyFSB

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 15, 2004
Location
Berkeley, CA
My accounts are not closed. I also made a big baccarat bet in the beginning, because I want to maximize my bonus. However I LOST this bet.
Fortunelounge could you return my deposit and lock me to?? Or you only do that to winners? :eek2:

Read their email carefully: they are not even returning deposits. So rogue, so sad.
 

vincenski

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Location
Holland
Please PAB. Then we will learn a little more about the gravity of these lockdowns. Especially when they took 200 from your cash balance. Please file eCogra complaint also.

Okay I will PAB when I'm at home this afternoon :) Thanks.
 

GForceT1

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Location
Netherlands
well I heard of some other guy they will void his withdrawal of 290 and return his deposit of 60. So appearantly they are not returning anything to someplayers, whilst others get their deposit back.
I'll ask that player to post here so we can get a better view of what's going on here. :confused:
 

GForceT1

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Location
Netherlands
Ok, I got the details about the person who got his money back. (money is returned to neteller and received)

In total he had 3 accounts at the fortunelounge group.
He never before made a withdrawal. This was the 2nd casino he deposited. On 1 he made an account but hasn't played there for real money yet.
He wanted to win some of his earlier money back so made a couple of big bets and was lucky. Then he tried to withdraw 290€. So this was his 1st withdrawal EVER at fortunelounge. (lost deposit at an other casino of FL). Terms and conditions were respected, no fraud committed (unless you call making big bets 'fraud' :eek2: )

He then received this email:"
"Hi XXXXX,


* * * * BONUS FORFEITED * * * *


This e-mail is in reference to your recent cashin of €290 on your Desert Dollar account number XXXXXXXXXX.


Please be aware that all Fortune Lounge bonuses are allotted to players in good faith, in order to enrich their gaming experience, and not to be abused for profit. Unfortunately, your recent withdrawal request of €290 included a bonus amount that you already received via our promotional offers.


We sincerely regret that as a result of this recent activity, we have had no choice but to forfeit your bonus and the winnings derived from it. However, we have refunded your original purchase amount. If you are unclear as to why you have forfeited your bonus please refer to our terms and conditions for more details regarding promotional abuse.


Should you require additional information regarding the play-through requirements on bonuses, please go here:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
FL_Direct#tnc


Alternatively, you can call us on one of the toll free numbers below or email us at:

[email protected]


Regards,


Jaco
ECash Operations
_____________________________________________

Toll Free Tel:

USA: 1-866-745-2415
Portugal: 800-827-002
Canada: 1-800-766-3571
Hong Kong: 800-901-014
Australia: 1-800-706-903
Italy: 800-782-446
United Kingdom: 0-800-056-9578
Singapore: 800-270-0005
Germany: 0-800-180-0948
France: 0-800-918-780
Malaysia: 1-800-805-933
Taiwan: 801-279-906
Thailand: 1-800-271-1802
Israel: 1-800-945-1602"

So you can't make a profit of a bonus because that is abuse. It is only good so you can see thunderstruck rolling a few times longer before it eats your money.:mad:

Anyway, about PAB, He is afraid in the future he might run into some problems for a bigger amount of money and don't want to hear "yes, sorry but you already did PAB". Can he PAB in the future when he does it now?


Strange things are happening there...... and it's not even RTG :oops:
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland

Vesuvio

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Location
UK
Please be aware that all Fortune Lounge bonuses are allotted to players in good faith, in order to enrich their gaming experience, and not to be abused for profit.
That's a quote and a half. Somehow the "take our bonuses for an enriched losing experience" message seems to have got lost along the way to the promotion department, who simplified it to "100 free!" :cool:

It's mind boggling that a casino group that's been around for years suddenly seems to be coming round to the realisation that bonuses might give the player an edge (doh!). Attracting customers costs money - and shock, horror (!), not all the customers you attract with an offer will be the ones you want.
 

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