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Ladbrokes, Christmas Scrooges.

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by vinylweatherman, Dec 2, 2009.

    Dec 2, 2009
  1. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Ladbrokes have now joined the ever increasing list of "Neteller Haters".

    WTF is it with casinos & Neteller:mad:

    NO-ONE is prepared to explain WTF this is all about, it just happens. Why ONLY Neteller in many, including this, case(s).

    Deposit by card? Nope, 29.9% interest, and NO INTEREST FREE PERIOD because gambling is considered now as a "cash advance" on nearly every card. Mastercard has NEVER worked for me anyway, and NONE of my debit cards will work reliably enough for gambling transactions.

    The Christmas promos themselves are not all that inviting, more of those scratchcards promising "up to 60", but delivering a string of 2, 5, and 10 - even 0 is possible.

    The rule they have introduced is not entirely clear either. Most promos are deposit x and play y on the game of the day/week/whatever. but the term for Neteller is 20x deposit, which can be open to interpretation. It could simply mean 4x the usual qualifying wager, or an impossible criteria, since wagering 20x is DAMN HARD given the variance on slots, so deposits often have to be added to if one busts before qualifying. If they mean 20x EVERYTHING, one could get into a position of never being able to reach the 20x of the ENTIRE amount deposited, even after depositing many times the required amount.

    This applies to all but one promo, but this is NOT good news, since the term for this one simply states "Neteller is disqualified as a deposit method for this promotions".

    I say again;

    SCROOGE LIVES ON!


    I will NOT be paying 29.9% interest on my deposits by using my card (assuming it even works there), so will NOT be participating in this December's Ladbrokes promotions.

    Sometime next summer, Ladbrokes will ask me why I stopped playing (again), and I will tell them why. It does at least make a change from my usual reason for uninstalling Ladbrokes, a fiasco with their CS.

    Those who DO play these, READ THE TERMS, they HAVE CHANGED this month for Neteller customers, and may change to exclude/load other deposit methods in later months.

    KK - tough luck:p

    Maybe this is YOUR FAULT:mad:
     
    4 people like this.
  2. Dec 2, 2009
  3. SlotMonster

    SlotMonster SoftSwiss Representative webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Somewhere in eternity
    Holy Sh@t! 29.9% Interest? :eek: :mad:
    What's up with them?
     
  4. Dec 2, 2009
  5. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    I'm not speaking for Ladbrokes, but I do know there has been massive fraud in the past several months that included Neteller accounts. We've seen Vegas Technologies take similar action.

    This may be the reason Neteller deposits are getting Scrooged.
     
  6. Dec 2, 2009
  7. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Neteller are certainly sweeping this under the carpet then. I spoke with a VIP account manager a short while ago on this matter, and she said she was not aware of any merchants "hating" Neteller as a deposit method. She said she would escalate the matter, and I have heard nothing more since.

    If there is such concern, I do not believe the merchants have not made Neteller aware of their concerns, so Neteller seem to be denying everything, even when asked specifically about this.

    Neteller is regulated by the FSA, and must adhere to high standards of security and customer verification. If they are negligently allowing fraudsters to operate from Neteller accounts, and are so inefficient in policing this that merchants themselves are taking this very public action, Neteller will find their GENUINE customers are forced to "jump ship" to another ewallet not so prone to fraudsters on their systems.

    Credit cards have made significant changes to gambling transactions, and have also raised interest rates despite the bank base rate being at a 300 year low. 29.9% is the "cash advance" rate, far higher than the "purchase" rate. Changing gambling transactions from "purchase" to "cash advance" has allowed them to both deny the usual interest free period, AND charge the "cash advance" rate from the day the casino deposit is made, to the day the bill is paid. This can mean having interest bearing casino deposits on the card for up to a month and a half, costing 29.9%.

    Only ONE card doesn't do this yet, but it is "full", because all of a sudden the Jackpot Factory have started returning card deposits to the preferred payment method, instead of back to the card, as I was expecting.


    Ladbrokes have imposed all this hassle, yet the Christmas promos this year are nowhere near as good as last (probably KK's fault;) ), certainly not worth the bother of setting up a new deposit method.

    I have debit cards, but deposits from them keep getting rejected, so I have given up on this alternative.

    If all this is down to problems with fraud, why can't casinos just be honest about this to their GENUINE players who have habitually used Neteller, and suggest alternatives. In fact, a LOYAL player should be treated like a PERSON, and not a number, so surely these LOYAL players should NOT be subject to the Neteller exclusion policy, which should be reserved for NEW players whilst they establish themselves as genuine, and not fraudsters.

    Ladbrokes is the LAST casino I would have expected this from, as they are a BRITISH brand, and Neteller is regulated by BRITAIN, through the FSA.
     
  8. Dec 2, 2009
  9. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    Probably not "fraud". Their bonuses have just been overplayed, theres so little EV+ bonuses left that even the small ones got lot of attention. And the Ladbrokes bonuses were some of the softest.

    And I seriously doubt Vegas Technologies has been hit by any Neteller "fraud", they havent had a EV+ bonus for ages.
     
  10. Dec 2, 2009
  11. HUNTS!!!!!

    HUNTS!!!!! Dormant account

    Occupation:
    another
    Location:
    UK
    VWM if u have a facebook account become a fan of ladbrokes.
    ask this question on there where they are inviting people to leave feedback good or bad and put this across to them on there where they have 1000's of customers viewing there answers :thumbsup:
     
  12. Dec 2, 2009
  13. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This is a very weak argument. Players can use a variety of deposit methods to "overplay" these bonuses, and if this was the problem, they would just raise the qualifying WR for ALL players.

    The Neteller rules DO point strongly to the "fraud" theory, if the term "Neteller deposits must be wagered 20x to qualify for a bonus" is taken literally to mean the ENTIRE deposit, and not merely the amount required to qualify. Fraudsters might be overdepositing through Neteller, and getting this money out another way. Ladbrokes isn't just a casino, money can be transferred back to the main purse, and this makes it easier to "launder" if there was something dodgy about the initial deposit.

    The problem is that Moneybookers can be used in this way too, yet there is no anti Moneybookers term (yet) at Ladbrokes.

    UKash is even worse, no audit trail of where the cash came from, could have been a drugs deal, proceeds used to buy UKash vouchers, deposit into casino, out by cheque (as they insist). Surprising some casinos have allowed UKash:confused:


    My real worry is whether this rampant Neteller fraud will place MY account at risk, as in the recent case "Neteller issues", where someone had their Neteller account "hacked" in some way, and they were robbed by Peer to Peer transfer. The receiving account would have to get the money out, and maybe this is being done by using it to fund casinos, and tricking them into paying out by cheque. Some (most notably Playtech) casinos have even played into the hands of those trying this, claiming they can accept deposits from Neteller, but can't pay back that way, only by cheque.

    Neteller is being targeted for a reason, it has a security weakness that is being exploited, and Moneybookers does NOT have the same weakness, or at least have more effective ways of policing fraudulent activity.

    Neteller stand to lose out in the end, as if large numbers of merchants start imposing these "Neteller hating" punitive rules, players will seek out other ways to hold gambling money.

    It is a pity that there is currently an effective duopoly of Neteller and Moneybookers, with Click2pay being a poor third alternative. All the other deposit methods tend to come with high fees, inconvenience, or both. Deposit methods that can't accept withdrawals are yet another inconvenience, since the method of payment from the casino is likely to be a cheque.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Dec 2, 2009
  15. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    Seriously doubt that theres any "fraud". And if you deposit by Neteller you have to withdraw to Neteller.

    They have just seen that players using Neteller are more "costly". Hence they dont want players using Neteller who only plays when there is a bonus. Most likely they make a loss on Neteller players.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2009
  16. Dec 2, 2009
  17. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Okay, let's reread what I said:

    And now some of the comments

    With the amount of work that has been wasted by me and Max dealing with player fraud, it's frustrating when long time members pooh-pooh its (fraud) existence. I know you're not calling me a liar - but it's looking pretty close.

    It's a fact. Player fraud has a direct impact on how casinos accept and deliver payments - Neteller for one. I stated earlier that this may or may not be the case here. I was merely giving an example on what may be going on from what I know dealing with a crapload of fraud cases - many involving players with Neteller accounts.

    You don't know if this is the case or not; to deny that it is a possibility is just naive.

    Instead of speculating on what's up, why don't you just ask?
     
  18. Dec 2, 2009
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well, surely this is just chance variation. Another month might see them making a net loss to Moneybookers players, and the following month on, credit card players.

    Why are they risking alienating players in this way?

    They have SUCCEEDED with me, alienated AGAIN, that's TWICE this year, and TWICE last year, although the previous three times were down to their inept CS.

    Sure, I could get a Moneybookers account, but they may "ban" this too next month, as "everybody else" might have the same idea, and move from Neteller to Moneybookers to play at those merchant sites that don't like Neteller, but are fine with Moneybookers.

    Rushmore did a similar thing recently, but refused to explain the reasoning behind this, despite several attempts to obtain a reason for the thinking behind it. All I got was a lame "the promotional department changes....... from time to time". The Rushmore rule was against both Neteller AND Moneybookers, which is why I don't consider getting a Moneybookers account is the answer.

    Players are suffering from this, as they have to create and maintain a larger number of deposit methods, and quite unnecessarily in my view, because of a "war" between merchants and some of the larger players in the eMoney business.

    If I split between Moneybookers and Neteller, for example, I could go from being VIP at Neteller, to VIP at neither, because my overall volume is split between the two, and becomes no longer enough at any one of them to qualify for VIP status.

    Ladbrokes have also created a minor PR issue by enacting this change at CHRISTMAS, rather than at another time of year, hence my "scrooge" reference, "Christmas? - bah humbug!"
     
  20. Dec 2, 2009
  21. Tengil

    Tengil Senior Member

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    Finland
    I know theres a load of "gnoming" (can be referred to as fraud) going on. Some bonuses gets killed in under 24h. But in Vegas Tech I dont see it as a possibility because of how the bonuses are designed.

    In Ladbrokes case I think my theory is correct, I have seen how their soft bonuses has got much more attention as of late. And those players have probably mostly used Neteller.

    It doesnt take much to make a player a loss for the casino. They pay royalties to MG and transaction fees to Neteller for each deposit.
    Say that they have 3000 Neteller customers. In a short time they get 2000 new Neteller players of which 500 are recreational players and 1500 are bonus hunters resulting in a loss.
    Easy way to cut losses, get rid of the bonus hunters by raising the WR. Most likely it wouldnt scare away too much of the recreational players. At least thats what I would do. The numbers are totally fictional, just trying to explain my theory.
     
  22. Dec 3, 2009
  23. De Beuker

    De Beuker Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Production
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I'm not an expert, but aren't bonus abuse and fraud 2 different things?
    If players abuse their bonuses they can just exclude those players from receiving further promotions.

    This really sucks, I like Ladbrokes and use Neteller, so the promotions are now no longer attractive, I found it hard enough already to wager 5x on a selected slot, 20 times, nah, not even gonna try.
     
  24. Dec 3, 2009
  25. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This is the point. Fraudsters are not bound by a single deposit method. Shut the Neteller door, and they will move over to, say, Moneybookers. When they shut out Moneybookers, they will keep on moving till the incentive has gone. Meanwhile, the casino has progressively alienated many of its recreational players, many of whom are NOT going to play the "depost method dancing game" just to suit the monthly whims of management, they will go elsewhere to a casino where the rules are stable.

    Some of the requirements are "soft", but the bonuses themselves are small, and result from playing a variety of promotions designed to take TIME, suited to the recreational player.

    They are also leaving themselves open to problems because many players will not notice this extra term, and will assume the promotional format is the same as it has always been. Players will not get the bonus they expected after meeting HEADLINE requirements, and when they are told why, it will be too late for them to go back and meet the additional requirements.

    It may be that they don't want "proper" casino players at all, but players who use their sportsbook product, and just have a little dabble in the casino and on the Flash games.


    This is a good point, casinos CAN and DO exclude players from promotions on an individual basis. They could quite easily identify WHICH players are "abusing" the promotions for "professional gain", and exclude them. They will go away, maybe under protest, but it will NOT hurt their recreational players who happen to use Neteller.

    Lastly, if there is a valid reason for this rampant Neteller hatred, WHY is no operator prepared to explain the problem to Neteller users.
    If the problem is with Neteller, Neteller users can then put pressure on Neteller to stop p1$$ing off the casinos.
    I could, for example, contact Neteller VIP and tell them. "I will be moving an increasing amount of my activity to Moneybookers because of (reason merchants dislike Neteller depositing players)". Neteller will then be under pressure to change policy to a more merchant friendly one, or lose their customers to other competitors.
     
  26. Dec 4, 2009
  27. darkfire

    darkfire Full Member

    Occupation:
    Accounting
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Long time lurker, first time poster, but I couldn't resist the irony...
     
  28. Dec 4, 2009
  29. Wildfire7

    Wildfire7 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Engineering
    Location:
    UK
    This is an excellent point. To turn dirty money into clean money UKash is defintely too easy to abuse.

    And as to why moneybookers is not yet been axed as a deposit method is somewhat strange, considering Neteller is, and a highly reputable one at that.

    Seems to be a lot of double standards around when it comes to defining fraud and money laundering.

    Ladbrokes have one of the largest varities of payment methods out there. They even used to take green shield stamps!
    So if Ladbrokes have stopped taking Neteller deposits then their risk management team must have had a strong case to warrant this, as most casinos are usually looking for more and more ways to deposit, not less.

    Mike
     
  30. Dec 7, 2009
  31. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It's not that they have STOPPED taking Neteller deposits, it is that they have "special" (by which I mean 4x WORSE) WR imposed on their promotions PURELY because the deposit has come from Neteller. Neteller is the ONLY deposit method with such restrictions. One of their promotions does not even PERMIT the use of Neteller as a deposit method.
    Most Ladbrokes promos are based around regular, but small, deposits. Ukash is PERFECT for comitting any kind of "abuse" of these, yet there are no "special" terms. Conversely, in terms of the regulatory regime, Neteller is considered one of the BEST, being regulated by the UK's FSA. Moneybookers is virtually the same as Neteller, yet is NOT subject to "special" requirements. Many casinos that "hate" Neteller deposits often "hate" Moneybookers too, either straight away, or shortly after. This makes it pretty pointless getting a Moneybookers account just because Neteller has become the pariah of the casino world for some reason that NO-ONE from the industry is prepared to disclose, and that Neteller themselves do not know (or pretend not to know when asked by a customer). Casinomeister has suggested that it IS down to fraud, suggesting Neteller has a vulnerability that is being exploited, and that casinos are losing out to.
     
  32. Dec 7, 2009
  33. HUNTS!!!!!

    HUNTS!!!!! Dormant account

    Occupation:
    another
    Location:
    UK
    just a thought but could it have something to do with fees the casino's have to pay for a NT withdrawl?
    ive heard there really high but dont know exact amount
    would kinda make sense?
     
  34. Dec 7, 2009
  35. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    Would kinda make sense to SAY SO, and end the speculation that this is some dark and seedy Neteller issue.

    Casinos can simply tell players about the fees, and get them "on side". They could tell them that the fees take money that could otherwise be spent on better promotions. This would make players more likely to see the casino's point of view, AND put pressure on Neteller to reduce their fees because customers will realise WHO is to blame for the "Neteller hatred" among casinos. Once you know the cause of a problem, it is possible to think of a solution. Currently, we do NOT know the cause, but it is PLAYERS who are shouldering the burden of finding a solution to their normal deposit method having these problems.
     
  36. Dec 8, 2009
  37. casinotimemike

    casinotimemike Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Gambler
    Location:
    UK
    Google Netteller Cashback

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Sorry haven't read a lot but really I don't think its much of a conspiracy.
     
  38. Dec 8, 2009
  39. Wildfire7

    Wildfire7 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Engineering
    Location:
    UK
    Is it just Ladbrokes singling out Neteller by imposing higher WR on deposits?
    If the trend is across many establishments then you could see some justification with it. But the sticking point is this: Moneybookers is very similar to Neteller but they so far have been exempt from this change.

    If the issue with Neteller is fraudulant activity then surely this is done on an account by account basis. VWM obviously has made numerous deposits using this method with no problems. Neteller isn't exactly new, it has been around for years. So why is this suddenly an issue?
    This debate on what should be a simple issue seems to throw up more questions than answers.

    Mike
     

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