Jammin Jars

[dunover]

This is plausible, without doubt... Demo buttons normally request specific results.

Yes, and as you know you can select 'BIG WIN' from the 'DEMO' menu and it will be the same screen every time, same win. You can also action this at any stake too. Same as when you select 'ANTICIPATION' or '5SCATTER' it will produce the same reels configuration every time.

This does look as bent as a Boy George sleepover, I admit. (As Playford has already nicked my 'Barrymore pool party' one).

 

[slotter999]

To be honest predetermining 10m sequences and then picking them at random (or maybe weighted) is the only real way to do these games.

I had been meaning to ask you about this in your AMA thread. I came to the conclusion that pre computed must be the only feasible way of doing this type of game and these videos suggest that is the case.

I don't know why but there is something unappealing about this form of slots.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So at the very least we're left with ethical issues here:

1) Streamers using demo modes and pretending they're playing for real money, and reacting as such. (Compare and contrast with dunover, for example, who always very clearly states when he's playing in demo mode and doesn't get all histrionic about the things happening on screen.)

2) Developers/casinos passing demo links to streamers, and apparently quite happy to 'play along' with them using demo modes and pretending they're winning real cash.

3) An irresponsible presentation of unrealistic results, called at will, to the viewing public - a clear enticement to gamble on a false premise.

The Shirox video clearly says 'Win was at Videoslots' with an affiliate link. Are Videoslots in on this as well? Do they know that affiliated streamers are promoting games at their casino with fake demo play, whilst pretending they're winning real money?

That's the real stink here, IMO.

 

[Balthazar]

Actually Shirox got this win over a week ago.

So the wins were a week apart, with thousands of spins played on that game from various streamers (including those 2).

 

[Balthazar]

So at the very least we're left with ethical issues here:

1) Streamers using demo modes and pretending they're playing for real money, and reacting as such. (Compare and contrast with dunover, for example, who always very clearly states when he's playing in demo mode and doesn't get all histrionic about the things happening on screen.)

2) Developers/casinos passing demo links to streamers, and apparently quite happy to 'play along' with them using demo modes and pretending they're winning real cash.

3) An irresponsible presentation of unrealistic results, called at will, to the viewing public - a clear enticement to gamble on a false premise.

The Shirox video clearly says 'Win was at Videoslots' with an affiliate link. Are Videoslots in on this as well? Do they know that affiliated streamers are promoting games at their casino with fake demo play, whilst pretending they're winning real money?

That's the real stink here, IMO.

I didn't watch those streams but assuming that they are playing live people can see their balance in real time, it would require quite a bit of skill to pass a game in demo mode in the middle of a live session.

 

[dunover]

So at the very least we're left with ethical issues here:

1) Streamers using demo modes and pretending they're playing for real money, and reacting as such. (Compare and contrast with dunover, for example, who always very clearly states when he's playing in demo mode and doesn't get all histrionic about the things happening on screen.)

2) Developers/casinos passing demo links to streamers, and apparently quite happy to 'play along' with them using demo modes and pretending they're winning real cash.

3) An irresponsible presentation of unrealistic results, called at will, to the viewing public - a clear enticement to gamble on a false premise.

The Shirox video clearly says 'Win was at Videoslots' with an affiliate link. Are Videoslots in on this as well? Do they know that affiliated streamers are promoting games at their casino with fake demo play, whilst pretending they're winning real money?

That's the real stink here, IMO.

They COULD be using demo play but it would take some clever editing as there are buttons and stuff everywhere on the screen when you get the menus. You would need to pause the film while selecting the spin you wanted, then activate it and cut back in with the screen trimmed to avoid giving it away. If the edges aren't visible or the casino's game perimeter then that would be a clue.

 

[Balthazar]

They COULD be using demo play but it would take some clever editing as there are buttons and stuff everywhere on the screen when you get the menus. You would need to pause the film while selecting the spin you wanted, then activate it and cut back in with the screen trimmed to avoid giving it away. If the edges aren't visible or the casino's game perimeter then that would be a clue.

This is highly, highly unlikely that they do that during live streaming in front of hundreds of people who wouldn't notice.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well I find the alternative explanation pretty much impossible to accept.

 

[trancemonkey]

So at the very least we're left with ethical issues here:

1) Streamers using demo modes and pretending they're playing for real money, and reacting as such. (Compare and contrast with dunover, for example, who always very clearly states when he's playing in demo mode and doesn't get all histrionic about the things happening on screen.)

2) Developers/casinos passing demo links to streamers, and apparently quite happy to 'play along' with them using demo modes and pretending they're winning real cash.

3) An irresponsible presentation of unrealistic results, called at will, to the viewing public - a clear enticement to gamble on a false premise.

The Shirox video clearly says 'Win was at Videoslots' with an affiliate link. Are Videoslots in on this as well? Do they know that affiliated streamers are promoting games at their casino with fake demo play, whilst pretending they're winning real money?

That's the real stink here, IMO.

I very much doubt they were in demo mode... you would see the options come up on the screen.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well I find the alternative explanation pretty much impossible to accept.

The alternative? That two people a week apart happened to get the same result? I'd say it's the only believable explanation...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Many things are 'possible', but so highly improbable they stretch the bounds of credibility past breaking point.

For two affiliated streamers to hit exactly the same RNG call, for a very rare win of 1600x stake, within a week of each other (and not more than a couple of thousand spins apart I'd suspect), whilst they happen to be live streaming and promoting the same new slot?

I'm not having that. Any seasoned slot player will know how rare wins of that kind of magnitude are, for them to occur so close together, identical RNG calls, whilst being live streamed?

Nah.

 

[deaconk78]

Many things are 'possible', but so highly improbable they stretch the bounds of credibility past breaking point.

For two affiliated streamers to hit exactly the same RNG call, for a very rare win of 1600x stake, within a week of each other (and not more than a couple of thousand spins apart I'd suspect), whilst they happen to be live streaming and promoting the same new slot?

I'm not having that. Any seasoned slot player will know how rare wins of that kind of magnitude are, for them to occur so close together, identical RNG calls, whilst being live streamed?

Nah.

been reading this thread and i wondered was there any pattern to the play prior to them hitting the same bonus win sequence ? similar dead spins etc ? that would be dodgy ( if you could see a pattern forming prior to a win )

 

[KasinoKing]

...
Then what happens is this game runs in effect like a lottery... so the server is asked for a game and sends a sequence back. The sequences are sent back from the server but the sequence is already predetermined. In other words the choice of sequence is randomly determined but the sequences are preset.
...

Which is what I said.

However, there is one MASSIVE problem with this system: If all the outcomes are indeed predetermined, there must be a maximum win.
If there is a maximum win - why isn't that stated in the game's pay-table or help file?

The way those Jammin Jars jump about with increasing multipliers, it gives the impression that mega-wins are possible, with no particular maximum.
That certainly would be the case if the symbols were 100% truly randomly generated.

KK

 

[dunover]

I can sense a foil explosion coming on this thread......KABOOM!

 

[trancemonkey]

Which is what I said.

However, there is one MASSIVE problem with this system: If all the outcomes are indeed predetermined, there must be a maximum win.
If there is a maximum win - why isn't that stated in the game's pay-table or help file?

The way those Jammin Jars jump about with increasing multipliers, it gives the impression that mega-wins are possible, with no particular maximum.
That certainly would be the case if the symbols were 100% truly randomly generated.

KK

Because quite simply they don't have to state it... the rights and wrongs of that are probably a whole thread on their own.

 

[dunover]

OK, here's a quick unlisted video of attempted fakery - is it feasible on a live stream?

 

[shadow123]

Talking about predetermination,Red tiger games are rather interesting
If you get a long drawn out feature as in laser fruits or my new favorite
game tiki fruits and the feature gets interrupted half way though, on reloading
it just shows a total feature win instead of resuming the feature which
means that either every feature spin is predetermined at the start, which is unlikely
as there can be a lots spins and the games are quite complex or
there is a total win target set at the start and the feature runs until that is achieved.
Either way is does show that the feature outcome is definitely predetermined at the start.
I dont mind though, I like the games.

 

[trancemonkey]

Talking about predetermination,Red tiger games are rather interesting
If you get a long drawn out feature as in laser fruits or my new favorite
game tiki fruits and the feature gets interrupted half way though, on reloading
it just shows a total feature win instead of resuming the feature which
means that either every feature spin is predetermined at the start, which is unlikely
as there can be a lots spins and the games are quite complex or
there is a total win target set at the start and the feature runs until that is achieved.
Either way is does show that the feature outcome is definitely predetermined at the start.
I dont mind though, I like the games.

In that case i believe the feature plays out on the server in the background and the total is shown to you on reload.

 

[Jono777]

I've always thought features to be pre-determined on 90% (if not more of slots) - Too long in the tooth and way too much time on AWP's back in the day create this (realistic?) mind set

Doesn't affect the fairness, RTP, randomness nor mean they're rigged, that pre-determined feature could still be randomly mine and pay 10,000x

If I am way off here there BTG's random pool on Chilli certainly contains a hell of a lot of win blocker and losing spins, that's for sure

As I've said before no more rigged nonsense just my thoughts that the way we/some/others feel the mechanics work are different from the way they actually do!

 

[trancemonkey]

OK, here's a quick unlisted video of attempted fakery - is it feasible on a live stream?

Now try and do that on a live stream without anyone spotting it

 

[SpinUk]

duplicate

 

[SpinUk]

1000% they are pre-determined in this game. Imagine the maths nightmare of truly random symbols with this games dynamics. No. This is direct evidence of “scratchcard” randomness where there are 10,000 (for example) predermined events of which this is one of them.

Thats the generous view.

The non-generous (and mathematically more likely, Trance I challenge you to argue this otherwise) view is of technical collusion between the provider/casino/streamer to promote their new game.

 

[shadow123]

Games like Rainbow riches are little more than animated scratchcards with every spin displaying
a predetermined win amount or losing game is a variety of ways, rather dumb.For me the more
random a game appears to be, the more interesting it is.On the stuff I programmed years ago,I always
tried to introduce as much visual randomness ( is that a word?) as possible even though the outcome
was tightly controlled

 

[Chipkin9]

With regards to the two streamers getting it so close together - the chance of a 1,600x win can't be very high. Of course, it's possible it did just randomly happen, and i'd like to believe this is the case. It's also possible that they have only included one pattern for this win - which in my opinion is a bit poor if it's true.

I've made my feelings on streamers very clear in other threads, so i won't dwell on it - there are already a lot of strong opinions in this thread. However, suffice to say that i don't trust most of the streamers - and indeed anyone betting over 5€ a spin for prolonged periods of time. I have no evidence they are doing anything underhand, but something doesn't feel right i'll be honest...

What I don't understand is WHY they would only have one graphical representation of a 1,600x win.

Seriously, why?

It is going to be hit so seldomly, so how much effort is really needed to be put into making a few hundred different graphics for it? On the opposite side you will have 10x on a grand scale and I guarantee you you won't run into the same graphical representation for a 10x win because they've programed so many of them...riddle me that?

 

[SpinUk]

Many things are 'possible', but so highly improbable they stretch the bounds of credibility past breaking point.

For two affiliated streamers to hit exactly the same RNG call, for a very rare win of 1600x stake, within a week of each other (and not more than a couple of thousand spins apart I'd suspect), whilst they happen to be live streaming and promoting the same new slot?

I'm not having that. Any seasoned slot player will know how rare wins of that kind of magnitude are, for them to occur so close together, identical RNG calls, whilst being live streamed?

Nah.

Exactly. Although the industry loves to fall back on the “randomness” defence to try to counter any claims of dodgyness, the realms of possibilty for this - against the chances of technically possible collusion - which this is - are ridiculously remote. I am calling 100% bullshit on it.