Jammin Jars

[eizei]

“People like you” - you mean people with a healthy amount of scepticism. No one forced him to show his bank statements, if indeed they were genuine. Maybe he could invest in another apartment with the hundreds of thousands he must be making, as most of the time he seems to be sitting on his bed in a room you could barely swing a cat in.

I like healthy scepticism but here you are basically saying everything the guy does is fake and that he lies and acts every time he's streaming just to make money. That's a pretty big accusation to make and it sounds like you're doing that based on watching his big wins on youtube. I think he's living in a house and has a room dedicated for streaming. Maybe he's happy living where he is. I've seen him show his 30k speakers that he recently bought and a nissan gtr. Couple that with him showing his bank accounts I don't know what more you could ask of the guy.

So by your own admittance they are receiving treated differently.. and as such this shows an untrue side of gambling. They aren't risking their own money...

Well I don't see how anyone could possibly say otherwise. I just don't understand your problem with it or how you can say it's just as bad as rigging the games. Especially as like I said you can get those same kind of bonuses most streamers have just not for 5 deposits every day. If you're gambling that much you should definitely know better anyway than to try making a living playing slots because you saw it on a stream.

 

[trancemonkey]

To be fair you cant have it both ways - accuse him of being fake and then say when he shows bank statements to try and prove he isnt fake say no one forced you to do that . There has to be a fair trial surely !

To work out whether hes fake - perhaps look at the casinos he streams - are they the sort they allows fake streamers - for example we know VS do not.

The PP said hes watched him a lot and he loses a lot too as well as wins

I don't watch this particular streamer but those I do watch make it clear they get regular 100% bonuses - as many as they want basically , that their permitted Max bet is sometimes higher on a bonus than a regular punter and state the wagering. So no they aren't starting from the same starting line but they are not pretending they are .

Yes there are fake streamers but not all are .

Oh so they admit to getting bonuses no one else would get and therefore not really risking their money like anyone else?

 

[Borgie]

Oh so they admit to getting bonuses no one else would get and therefore not really risking their money like anyone else?

Yes they do admit it. The ones i watch have a start command and it shows you what they deposited and what bonus they got. If you ask in chat they tell you.

Now you can argue its not fair but they arent trying to cover it up .

Legitimate casinos won't have anything to do with fake money but they will give streamers a deal on bonuses for deposits.

 

[dunover]

Doesn't show his transactions bans anyone in chat who asks him to. He's faker than katie prices tits!!

I wouldn't trust any streamer that never showed a transaction history at the casino. It's easily done without giving sensitive details out and I was cajoled into doing it most of the time, until they realized it was real each time.

 

[Sonict]

For the smaller streamers which I mainly watch, the deposit bonuses they have are pretty much what most people would be able to get if they asked for it. For us as a viewer, it is a lot better when a person who likes streaming does have a deal with the casino so they can make a stream last longer so say you could have up to two 100% deposit bonuses to use a day. Instead of a bullet lasting 30 minutes to an hour, it would basically extend it to say 1+ to 2 hours. I rarely stream slots unless I get a decent bonus ( as in while I am doing wagering, I get a nice boost to the balance so I feel it is worth it to stream ) as I make small deposits and even at 40 - 50 cent spins, they can be RIP quickly. I don't enjoy watching people bet at 5€ as it is way beyond my bet levels so I just don't watch those streamers. Most of them that I do watch bet from 10 cents up to over 1€

 

[eizei]

Doesn't show his transactions bans anyone in chat who asks him to. He's faker than katie prices tits!!

If you're talking about Rosh here he definitely does show his casino transaction statements live on stream including accepted cashouts. I'm not saying that proves he's legit but he absolutely does do that.

 

[Yellowsamuel]

Ill say this for Shirox. Yes that was a really nice win, but I know for a fact the guy lost over 7K in the first few days playing Jammin Jars The slot was really really brutal to him. He eventually hit that win but boy did he lose a lot trying to get it.

 

[Tengil]

Yes they do admit it. The ones i watch have a start command and it shows you what they deposited and what bonus they got. If you ask in chat they tell you.

Now you can argue its not fair but they arent trying to cover it up .

Legitimate casinos won't have anything to do with fake money but they will give streamers a deal on bonuses for deposits.

What they do forget to tell is that they will not lose in the long run, instead they will win. Seen some trying with bs like its to give them more playtime or allowing higher bets etc. Wouldn't surprise me if some discourage players to use bonuses. In the end it has extremely little to do with normal gambling.

Of course a new player can use SUBs and a few reloads but they will soon notice they are bonusbanned at basically every group.

 

[sufferinsilence]

What they do forget to tell is that they will not lose in the long run, instead they will win. Seen some trying with bs like its to give them more playtime or allowing higher bets etc. Wouldn't surprise me if some discourage players to use bonuses. In the end it has extremely little to do with normal gambling.

Of course a new player can use SUBs and a few reloads but they will soon notice they are bonusbanned at basically every group.

Jarttu clearly states atleast once a week he loses (alot) on the slots even with all those streamer bonuses but has a good income due to his numerous affilliation deals.

 

[Borgie]

Jarttu clearly states atleast once a week he loses (alot) on the slots even with all those streamer bonuses but has a good income due to his numerous affilliation deals.

I watch Nick slots sometimes he also loses and keeps a spreadsheet he's down overall. So streamers win and lose.

 

[Balthazar]

I watch Nick slots sometimes he also loses and keeps a spreadsheet he's down overall. So streamers win and lose.

Bandit shows his transaction history constantly and very rarely uses a bonus. "Streamers are fake!11!!" is just the new, evolved version of "slots are rigged!11!!".

 

[goatwack]

I don't even know how this has devolved into a streamer discussion again, we've pretty much known there are ones that play for pennies and no glory whilst others use Monopoly money and do their 'flea on crack' routine to attract viewership.

More worrying is the source of the problem, namely how Push have fed two streamers identical and improbable outcomes and claim to produce random results

 

[trancemonkey]

Bandit shows his transaction history constantly and very rarely uses a bonus. "Streamers are fake!11!!" is just the new, evolved version of "slots are rigged!11!!".

I don't think Streamers are fake ... it's not in the casinos interests to affiliate with fakery as when it comes out it will do them more harm than good...

What I think the regulators will have a problem with is streamers getting unrealistic bonuses and wagering deals more frequently than any normal player could.

Casino companies are not allowed to make gambling look like a way of making money, nor are they allowed to show unrealistic expectations or make it look like gambling is somehow safer than it really is.

And yet steamers with their huge affiliate deals and bespoke bonuses do just this but skirt the law....

My personal opinion is that i think eventually something will be done about it unless things become more like reality. But I doubt that makes them enough money....

Difficult area of discussion... and I'm morally torn. I wish I'd had the brains to become a streamer. But also i don't like how it's developing..

Rothstein was doing €100 bets last night. Unless he's a multimillionaire how is that even possible....

 

[Balthazar]

Rothstein was doing €100 bets last night. Unless he's a multimillionaire how is that even possible....

I can't stand watching this guy but every time that I've seen him he did look suspicious. I don't know what his deal is, is he playing at reputable casinos?

 

[lockinlove]

I agree about Shirox and the rest of them, Shirox gets x2000 and he complains, he never punches the air and seems genuinely interested, he just lets aout a deadpan thats something could have been "moyre" no emotion, the guy is a robot.
Go and watch old videos of someone like Fatsoplays, and you see the difference of a real player with real emotions playing with real money.

Another Casinogrounds streamer supersmask, had a session the other day, on John Hunter Davinci Treasures, the slot rep from pragmatic was there talking in the chat and said that the slot was 14/10 on voliatility scale. Supersmask was doing double click fast spins the whole time, and I counted at least 12 or 13 bonus triggers in less than 200 spins??! so many people on here go hundreds and hundreds of spins without a bonus, but 12 or 13 in like 200 spins...give me a break, I have been playing since 2004 ish and never seen that, and I like you have done millions of spins.

It was quite sad when I learned most of that section was fake. It did take me to read emails from another streamer to believe it. I mean yeah I knew some of it was suspicious but after reading a whole pile of casinos offering this streamer fake deals I was like ..well this explains alot.

Oh well. you just have to dig through who you know are real and arent. Or if you dont mind fake money and and enjoy the entertainment than it is what it is.

 

[dunover]

There are a lot of bent streamers and fake channels. Now the 'honest' ones have been booted, the leeches move in. Which is what I said all along. Streamers seldom represent the true nature of gambling. It's alright saying 'I'm 79k down this year' but that is meaningless unless you also say 'but I have earned 90k in commission this year'.
If the average viewer working 9-5 had lost just 20% of that this year, he'd likely be heavily in debt, angry or bankrupt or all three. That's the difference.

 

[Jono777]

If the average viewer working 9-5 had lost just 20% of that this year, he'd likely be heavily in debt, angry or bankrupt or all three. That's the difference.

So when the fun stops, STOP, erm I mean fake stream more often

 

[lockinlove]

There are a lot of bent streamers and fake channels. Now the 'honest' ones have been booted, the leeches move in. Which is what I said all along. Streamers seldom represent the true nature of gambling. It's alright saying 'I'm 79k down this year' but that is meaningless unless you also say 'but I have earned 90k in commission this year'.
If the average viewer working 9-5 had lost just 20% of that this year, he'd likely be heavily in debt, angry or bankrupt or all three. That's the difference.

I wonder what people think about real streamers using viewbots to get to the top with the fake channels. I feel like you should never do it but in the same sense I feel like why should the real money streamers suffer and lose out because of the frauds.

I almost feel like I hope all the legit streamers start using viewbots as a huge FU to these fake channels.

 

[trancemonkey]

There are a lot of bent streamers and fake channels. Now the 'honest' ones have been booted, the leeches move in. Which is what I said all along. Streamers seldom represent the true nature of gambling. It's alright saying 'I'm 79k down this year' but that is meaningless unless you also say 'but I have earned 90k in commission this year'.
If the average viewer working 9-5 had lost just 20% of that this year, he'd likely be heavily in debt, angry or bankrupt or all three. That's the difference.

Amen brother...

 

[Tengil]

..

...Rothstein was doing €100 bets last night. Unless he's a multimillionaire how is that even possible....

He gets 300% on his 2k deposit without max bet restriction (or maybe 100e), best strategy is obviously max bet. That's assuming everything is 100% real. And that would be massively EV+.

 

[goatwack]

Let's all make a top 5 of our best & worst streamers.

Then when that's done we can evaluate how Push Gaming have replicated an identical set of hits across said streamers and how they've seemingly got away with their 'programming' gaffe

 

[lockinlove]

He gets 300% on his 2k deposit without max bet restriction (or maybe 100e), best strategy is obviously max bet. That's assuming everything is 100% real. And that would be massively EV+.

If someone is using 5000 viewbots you have to question the rest of it.

What casino on this planet gives a streamer 300% and no max cashout. He claims to have cashed out 100k, 70k and other huge cashouts on one site. I just dont see that being real especially on these smaller no named casinos that arent even that active

 

[brianmon]

He gets 300% on his 2k deposit without max bet restriction (or maybe 100e), best strategy is obviously max bet. That's assuming everything is 100% real. And that would be massively EV+.

Assuming he can hit something decent within the 80 spins he'd get at €100 a spin on an €8k starting balance.

On a MV/HV game it's quite common to get an RTP of 10-20% on such a small amount of spins

 

[dionysus]

What casino on this planet gives a streamer 300% and no max cashout. He claims to have cashed out 100k, 70k and other huge cashouts on one site. I just dont see that being real especially on these smaller no named casinos that arent even that active.

Tbh, it wouldnt surpirse me - if someone is dropping in 2k, even with a bonus theyre more often than not, going to bust out with their limited number of spins, bonus or no.
And if the streamer is bringing in players, it's a safe bet a few of them are going to be high rollers that follow, not just the nickel and dimers (who WONT be receiving those bonuses) to offset any potential wins he might have made, with the new players depping and dropping large amounts thinking theyll be big winners too, chasing the dream

 

[trancemonkey]

Assuming he can hit something decent within the 80 spins he'd get at €100 a spin on an €8k starting balance.

On a MV/HV game it's quite common to get an RTP of 10-20% on such a small amount of spins

Exactly.. with £8k even doing £20 a spin could see you lose the lot in a few hours tops. You would seriously have to have millions in the bank to even contemplate £100 spins... and even then it would be quite easy to blow a million in a month or two playing at €100 stakes everyday.

 

[trancemonkey]

I watch Nick slots sometimes he also loses and keeps a spreadsheet he's down overall. So streamers win and lose.

Yeah.. but he's only showing his deposits and withdrawals... not the money he gets from his affiliate business. So there is no chance he's down overall... gambling yes, but not with everything included.

I'm sure he's done the maths, although his stakes have gone up a bit over time. I probably trust him.

 

[vic10]

Just as a refresher and for anyone joining the thread now.

Here are the two wins running side by side. Two different streamers. Identical wins, played out in an identical fashion, whilst live streaming the slot during the launch window and promoting their affiliated links. (Note the values are different as one is on 4EUR spins and one is on 6EUR spins, but the end results as a multiplication of stake are identical at 1600.15x stake.)

I think it's like if they both got five of kind of 7's on 1st line in sizzling hot for example. Table with symbols will be the same.

 

[homerbert]

Hey guys!

Completely not my thread, but since Roshtein streaming in our N1 casino and Lady Hammer I just want to confirm that he using his funds (but he getting deposit bonuses, like someone said), and I can confirm that his gameplay is 100% percent same as any other player.

BR,

Vitali

 

[dunover]

Toshtein's viewing figures are a joke - he was well down the pecking order in views compared to other streamers, suddenly his stream videos have hundreds of thousands of views? Yep, that's the bots for ya...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Considering that this video is Unlisted, and I've only posted the link here at CM, it seems to be doing the rounds a bit....

It's also got a couple of comments from Russians, and running their comment through Google Translate the word comes back at 'CHEATERS'.

(If the CM logo has obscured the number of views, it's 740.)

I see we've had no official word on this at all yet, so we're left with, as a best case scenario, two affiliated streamers just happened to hit the same RNG pull, whilst promoting the slot live on their streams, for a very rare 1600x hit, just a week and a few hundred spins apart.

I've had over 1600x ONCE in over a decade of play. (And I'm talking free play play and real play combined. Over 1000x stake I've had more of, but once you get to 1500x and higher you're into really rare pay territory.)

 

[dunover]

Considering that this video is Unlisted, and I've only posted the link here at CM, it seems to be doing the rounds a bit....

It's also got a couple of comments from Russians, and running their comment through Google Translate the word comes back at 'CHEATERS'.

(If the CM logo has obscured the number of views, it's 740.)

I see we've had no official word on this at all yet, so we're left with, as a best case scenario, two affiliated streamers just happened to hit the same RNG pull, whilst promoting the slot live on their streams, for a very rare 1600x hit, just a week and a few hundred spins apart.

I've had over 1600x ONCE in over a decade of play. (And I'm talking free play play and real play combined. Over 1000x stake I've had more of, but once you get to 1500x and higher you're into really rare pay territory.)

View attachment 95844
View attachment 95845

So Putin thinks the wins are dodgy too lol....
That is odd actually - if it's unlisted and only posted here it wouldn't have had that many views that quickly. I had over 4k subs on my previous channel and wouldn't have got near that for unlisted video only planted here, not that quickly anyway! It must have been shared or linked elsewhere by persons with a real interest in the content. Good to see though!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So what's your take on it dunover? I'm genuinely interested.

You're going with the, 'Wow, that's unlikely, but I guess it's what must have happened' explanation?

All sorts of things are theoretically possible. It's theoretically possibly that Alyson Hannigan will decide that she's made a dreadful mistake in her life and that what she really wants to do is fly to the IOM to pledge undying love to old Choppers here, because it turns out she's really into fruit machine emulation and she's a big fan of my channel and she finds me incredibly sexy.

I mean, yeah, it's possible, right?

 

[Tengil]

Assuming he can hit something decent within the 80 spins he'd get at €100 a spin on an €8k starting balance.

On a MV/HV game it's quite common to get an RTP of 10-20% on such a small amount of spins

Its of course the goal to either hit big or bust quickly to reduce the average wagering. 100e bets on a 8k bonus balance isn't even that high, for example 3e bets on a 200 balance is higher. And the bust rate would still be under 90% assuming a 50xB wagering. Granted you need a high bankroll (around 100k would be enough) but you are looking at an EV of over 2k.

 

[dunover]

So what's your take on it dunover? I'm genuinely interested.

You're going with the, 'Wow, that's unlikely, but I guess it's what must have happened' explanation?

All sorts of things are theoretically possible. It's theoretically possibly that Alyson Hannigan will decide that she's made a dreadful mistake in her life and that what she really wants to do is fly to the IOM to pledge undying love to old Choppers here, because it turns out she's really into fruit machine emulation and she's a big fan of my channel and she finds me incredibly sexy.

I mean, yeah, it's possible, right?

Thinking about it, if it was demo the wins would have been absolutely identical in every way whereas here they were slightly different although the main hit was of the same construct. That, along with the reactions necessary to make a demo menu look credible and hidden simply doesn't wash here. I think it's simply down to the game's lazy programming which despite the graphics being able to represent a 1600x win in numerous ways has obviously got a specific reels action when it occurs.

If you think about it, it's little different to Fat Rabbit, when the 4x4 wild is in view and it wants to get you to the 1000x 5x5 - there's relatively few ways it can put the 4x4 Wild in at, in fact 4 ways. That fact along with you needing a carrot in at least one position around the 4x4 would likely result in some pretty similar hits over time. I believe this to be the case here.

 

[CasinoNinja]

Here is the thing about streamers, consider this before you start shouting "fake" to everyone, except the clearly russians ones who even have a fake video of someone elses stream playing..

Letsgiveitaspin, Nickslots, Slotspinner, Davidlawobsky etc they are earning HUGE amount of affiliate money. Most of them do say they down most months with just the gambling bit, but overall they are earning tons of money from the affiliating and bringing revenue to the casino.

Nickslots said in stream once that he is paying 50% tax, and we all know that is for only high income people. He also have other affilate buisnesses on the side.

And all these 4 are part of Casinogrounds, which they sold to Leovegas, just think about the money they earned on that?

In addition they get their unlimited 100% bonuses on EVERY deposit, which means they can play max bet stakes, fail, redeposit , fail, redeposit and then hit the occasional big win.
And when they stream 8 hours a day for 5 days a week, there is ofcourse plenty of space for a big win to happen.

I'm not a streamer with affiliate links (I've streamed twice in the past many years ago with no signup links), but you other affiliates on this forum probably know what money is in it, and for streamers they probably earn ALOT more than most of you, especially if they have good deals with the casinos.

So they can simply afford to lose the money they deposit because they know they earn it back on affiliating. There is a reason why they keep swapping casinos every other month. New sign ups = more money

As for Shirox I imagine he has the same deals, he plays at reputable casinos like Casumo and Dunder so I don't think that is dodgy. And yes he is always grumpy, he always likes to complain when his big win could have been slightly better, but that is just his style. He has had reactions when he has won really big like 7-10k, there are some videos of that, but everyone is different so don't expect everyone to go crazy.

As for this slot and the same pattern, Trancemonkey explained it very well, it's just unfortunate that they have such few representations of the 1600x win. And this slot act more as a scratchcard than anything else (still being fair though)

 

[dunover]

Here is the thing about streamers, consider this before you start shouting "fake" to everyone, except the clearly russians ones who even have a fake video of someone elses stream playing..

Letsgiveitaspin, Nickslots, Slotspinner, Davidlawobsky etc they are earning HUGE amount of affiliate money. Most of them do say they down most months with just the gambling bit, but overall they are earning tons of money from the affiliating and bringing revenue to the casino.

Nickslots said in stream once that he is paying 50% tax, and we all know that is for only high income people. He also have other affilate buisnesses on the side.

And all these 4 are part of Casinogrounds, which they sold to Leovegas, just think about the money they earned on that?

In addition they get their unlimited 100% bonuses on EVERY deposit, which means they can play max bet stakes, fail, redeposit , fail, redeposit and then hit the occasional big win.
And when they stream 8 hours a day for 5 days a week, there is ofcourse plenty of space for a big win to happen.

I'm not a streamer with affiliate links (I've streamed twice in the past many years ago with no signup links), but you other affiliates on this forum probably know what money is in it, and for streamers they probably earn ALOT more than most of you, especially if they have good deals with the casinos.

So they can simply afford to lose the money they deposit because they know they earn it back on affiliating. There is a reason why they keep swapping casinos every other month. New sign ups = more money

As for Shirox I imagine he has the same deals, he plays at reputable casinos like Casumo and Dunder so I don't think that is dodgy. And yes he is always grumpy, he always likes to complain when his big win could have been slightly better, but that is just his style. He has had reactions when he has won really big like 7-10k, there are some videos of that, but everyone is different so don't expect everyone to go crazy.

As for this slot and the same pattern, Trancemonkey explained it very well, it's just unfortunate that they have such few representations of the 1600x win. And this slot act more as a scratchcard than anything else (still being fair though)

They change casinos not through boredom or games but because once they've been doing one casino for a few weeks they're flogging a dead horse as far as NDP's are concerned. There's only so many NDP's they can milk from a certain number of subscribers so they change casinos to get fresh ones, so the same people can sign-up again at a different site and make them another CPA payment.

The money can be lucrative, 100, 150 or even 200 for a NDP who deposits 20 or more say. This sounds high but it's quite good compared to what casinos pay big affiliate networks. There are issues - the NDP's tend to be poor value for the casinos, often making minimum deposits to be part of the scene, enter a promo etc. and subsequent rev share can be non-existent or very low compared to players who use websites to sign up.

I know because doing certain videos I had from 30-70 NDP's and the retention and RS was pathetic on them thereafter. They were great for figures, I even had one RS-only programme where I had recruited 47 NDP's in a few weeks (and earned MINUS RS on them!) throw in a 2k euros bonus as a 'reward for my efforts'.

You see, it depends on the philosophy and aims of the individual affiliate programme or manager - some are simply entirely focussed on figures and volume to look good and NDP's are sacrosanct whereas others actually analyse the average revenue and soon realize the quality is shit and it isn't worth the cost of hoovering up tens or hundreds of players at huge CPA and then getting shag-all out of them thereafter.

Then there's the responsibility side - how long will reputable casinos like Dunder and Casumo get away with being allowed to sponsor unrealistic and misleading gambling where the streamers are getting bonuses and incentives the new players cannot ever hope to get themselves? How long will these casinos continue to promote like this?

Answer is basically as long as the gaming authorities don't clamp down on it and/or their reputation starts suffering via this streaming association and the money dries up.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The problem I'm still having with it is the rarity of hits of that magnitude, whether or not you're streaming for 8 hours a day 5 days per week. I remember once having Bruce Lee running at Jackpot Party for an entire long weekend (4 days) in free play trying to hit the 25 free spins round, it eventually landed after god knows how many thousnads of spins, triggered with crappy symbols on the first two reels and paid about 500x stake.

I've done millions of spins over the last decade in free and real money play, (I've done over 70,000 real money game rounds at 3Dice in the last two months alone), my biggest ever pay is 1689x stake (on Bruce Lee), everything else is under 1500x stake, with a handful of wins of between 1000x-1500x stake.

And yet here we have two affiliated streamers, both streaming live, both promoting the same slot, both with a financial interest in people signing up using their affiliated links hence being able to show WINNING ACTION will be of benefit to them, and both happen to pull back either:

a) The exact same RNG call as each other, which happens to be a 1600.15x win, so it plays out the same predetermined pattern to display the win.

or

b) One of a pool of 1600.15x wins in the available RNG results, but Push Gaming only bothered to give the game one pattern to display 1600.15x, hence the wins played out the same.

(And how big is that pool of available results going to be? 10M? 15M? 100M?)

And they had this happen within a week of each other, and most likely no more than a few hundred or couple of thousand spins apart.

I think I prefer my Alyson Hannigan story.

 

[CasinoNinja]

They change casinos not through boredom or games but because once they've been doing one casino for a few weeks they're flogging a dead horse as far as NDP's are concerned. There's only so many NDP's they can milk from a certain number of subscribers so they change casinos to get fresh ones, so the same people can sign-up again at a different site and make them another CPA payment.

The money can be lucrative, 100, 150 or even 200 for a NDP who deposits 20 or more say. This sounds high but it's quite good compared to what casinos pay big affiliate networks. There are issues - the NDP's tend to be poor value for the casinos, often making minimum deposits to be part of the scene, enter a promo etc. and subsequent rev share can be non-existent or very low compared to players who use websites to sign up.

I know because doing certain videos I had from 30-70 NDP's and the retention and RS was pathetic on them thereafter. They were great for figures, I even had one RS-only programme where I had recruited 47 NDP's in a few weeks (and earned MINUS RS on them!) throw in a 2k euros bonus as a 'reward for my efforts'.

You see, it depends on the philosophy and aims of the individual affiliate programme or manager - some are simply entirely focussed on figures and volume to look good and NDP's are sacrosanct whereas others actually analyse the average revenue and soon realize the quality is shit and it isn't worth the cost of hoovering up tens or hundreds of players at huge CPA and then getting shag-all out of them thereafter.

Then there's the responsibility side - how long will reputable casinos like Dunder and Casumo get away with being allowed to sponsor unrealistic and misleading gambling where the streamers are getting bonuses and incentives the new players cannot ever hope to get themselves? How long will these casinos continue to promote like this?

Answer is basically as long as the gaming authorities don't clamp down on it and/or their reputation starts suffering via this streaming association and the money dries up.

Thanks for the insight ! Had no idea that NDPs were paid that high, when we know a lot of players are just bonus hunting to get more value for their money so that can't be worth it for the casino. Crazy! No wonder so many go into affiliating and spend so much time on it.

 

[SpinUk]

The problem I'm still having with it is the rarity of hits of that magnitude, whether or not you're streaming for 8 hours a day 5 days per week. I remember once having Bruce Lee running at Jackpot Party for an entire long weekend (4 days) in free play trying to hit the 25 free spins round, it eventually landed after god knows how many thousnads of spins, triggered with crappy symbols on the first two reels and paid about 500x stake.

I've done millions of spins over the last decade in free and real money play, (I've done over 70,000 real money game rounds at 3Dice in the last two months alone), my biggest ever pay is 1689x stake (on Bruce Lee), everything else is under 1500x stake, with a handful of wins of between 1000x-1500x stake.

And yet here we have two affiliated streamers, both streaming live, both promoting the same slot, both with a financial interest in people signing up using their affiliated links hence being able to show WINNING ACTION will be of benefit to them, and both happen to pull back either:

a) The exact same RNG call as each other, which happens to be a 1600.15x win, so it plays out the same predetermined pattern to display the win.

or

b) One of a pool of 1600.15x wins in the available RNG results, but Push Gaming only bothered to give the game one pattern to display 1600.15x, hence the wins played out the same.

(And how big is that pool of available results going to be? 10M? 15M? 100M?)

And they had this happen within a week of each other, and most likely no more than a few hundred or couple of thousand spins apart.

I think I prefer my Alyson Hannigan story.

Hey Chopps,

I agree with almost everything you say here, however the rarity of the that size of win really does depend on the games you play regularly.

I spend 99% of my budget on high variance games, and have been playing for 7 years.

In that time I have hit more than 1600x at least 70 to 80 times, many times with screenshots, if you include DoA then at least 90 to 100 times. An example - 6 megawins on Playboy where the the win has been well over 2000x on each one. Inmortal Romance 3 wins over 2000x etc.

So - depends on what you play and how often you play.

I will say this though, the generous bonus matching the streamers get couples with the differant bet size limitation they have (i.e many dont seem to have one) will eventually be clamped down on from a marketing point of view, mathematically it is EV+ and its giving a false impression of a Casinos products. I give it a year for the UKGC to catch up.

 

[brianmon]

It makes you wonder, just how many other games from other providers, have a database of predetermined sequence of events for their features.

It's ok for Trancemoney to say it's all still random and legit. But it's not truly random if the spins in a feature aren't capable of selecting ANY and EVERY combination of reel positions.
But are only capable of showing carefully selected predetermined wins.
The only random element then is, which particular predetermined set of spins you're going to get

We get people in the forums guessing and calculating what the theoretical max pay out of new games are. What if a particular big win with a particular multiplier (or other modifier) just isn't in the feature spins database.....?

 

[Lemon]

Only one presentation in the database to display that particular win value would be my guess. Or maybe there are several and the same one happened to be picked both times. If the presentations were both different then everyone would be going on about the multiplier value being exactly the same, and a completely different discussion would ensue...

 

[TheresNoDInBonanza]

To me this is borderline unethical- running a pool of predetermined features which I'm sure is done to "sanitize" the monster wins. It misrepresents the games potential.

How would you all feel if we found out bonanza used this system? And they made sure to remove any wins over 3000x from the pool?

What initially intrigued me about this game was the enormous potential; if you get a bunch of jars you'd just keep winning bigger and bigger amounts almost indefinitely. But now we see that playing with the expectation of that being possible is false.

I'm not playing for money at the moment due to a shattering loss recently and frankly this kind of thing helps avoid the urge somewhat by removing the illusion that you actually have a chance at winning.

 

[dunover]

It makes you wonder, just how many other games from other providers, have a database of predetermined sequence of events for their features.

It's ok for Trancemoney to say it's all still random and legit. But it's not truly random if the spins in a feature aren't capable of selecting ANY and EVERY combination of reel positions.
But are only capable of showing carefully selected predetermined wins.
The only random element then is, which particular predetermined set of spins you're going to get

We get people in the forums guessing and calculating what the theoretical max pay out of new games are. What if a particular big win with a particular multiplier (or other modifier) just isn't in the feature spins database.....?

Of course it is - you're making the assumption that bonus rounds randomly stop each reel as in the base game, which most online slots don't do anyway - they simply select an RNG result pertaining to the values used from the PAR sheets and then reflect this as a video graphic representation of the win. As these wins are attainable in various ways, you see various representations of the same win value but not necessary all ways it's possible. For example 3x 9's on Thunderstruck 2 is a very common RNG value that could occur in thousands of different reel patterns, but you won't find thousands of different ways it's expressed in the game view and reels you see your end. It streamlines the game performance and programming whilst still being totally random. It seems this is the likely cause of the Jammin' Jars controversy.

Feature games are a different construct with their own RNG values in most cases and don't necessarily reflect the base game anyway - as long as over time they pay their share of the allocated RTP, say 25%, then there's nothing to worry about. This enables extra features, multipliers, reel maps etc. to be added to them and ringfenced within the feature itself. This of course means that as you say some wins may not be possible - for example is it possible to get an all-ways spin in the Bonanza bonus dropping 48x 6OAK diamonds at 20x multiplier for 48,000x stake? It all depends on the range of RNG values ringfenced within the bonus round and the volatility or average return you want to attribute to the bonus.

So yes, the feature rounds can be 100% random and also managed in possible outcomes and still maintain their RTP allocation.

The developers (Play'n Go and Quickspin for example) often scream 'WIN UP TO 5000 X BET!' in their intro screens and it's left to us to work out from reading the pay tables and feature mechanisms as to how this is achieved. Bonanza doesn't actually state 'win up to 48,000x bet' after all, it says absolutely nothing and has no obligation to do so. We know that Donuts had to be amended slightly because of some ridiculous results in testing, hence the £10 max bet.

 

[brianmon]

Of course it is - you're making the assumption that bonus rounds randomly stop each reel as in the base game, which most online slots don't do anyway - they simply select an RNG result pertaining to the values used from the PAR sheets and then reflect this as a video graphic representation of the win. As these wins are attainable in various ways, you see various representations of the same win value but not necessary all ways it's possible. For example 3x 9's on Thunderstruck 2 is a very common RNG value that could occur in thousands of different reel patterns, but you won't find thousands of different ways it's expressed in the game view and reels you see your end. It streamlines the game performance and programming whilst still being totally random. It seems this is the likely cause of the Jammin' Jars controversy.

Feature games are a different construct with their own RNG values in most cases and don't necessarily reflect the base game anyway - as long as over time they pay their share of the allocated RTP, say 25%, then there's nothing to worry about. This enables extra features, multipliers, reel maps etc. to be added to them and ringfenced within the feature itself. This of course means that as you say some wins may not be possible - for example is it possible to get an all-ways spin in the Bonanza bonus dropping 48x 6OAK diamonds at 20x multiplier for 48,000x stake? It all depends on the range of RNG values ringfenced within the bonus round and the volatility or average return you want to attribute to the bonus.

So yes, the feature rounds can be 100% random and also managed in possible outcomes and still maintain their RTP allocation.

The developers (Play'n Go and Quickspin for example) often scream 'WIN UP TO 5000 X BET!' in their intro screens and it's left to us to work out from reading the pay tables and feature mechanisms as to how this is achieved. Bonanza doesn't actually state 'win up to 48,000x bet' after all, it says absolutely nothing and has no obligation to do so. We know that Donuts had to be amended slightly because of some ridiculous results in testing, hence the £10 max bet.

And if Bonanza does work like that (I'm not saying it does). A player can see from separate spins within the feature (counting up the diamonds on each reel) that 48x 6OAK diamonds should be possible, and chase that win. But if that particular symbol combination isn't in the database of wins. Then the player is wasting his time and money chasing it.

It's borderline misrepresentation

 

[ChopleyIOM]

To me this is borderline unethical- running a pool of predetermined features which I'm sure is done to "sanitize" the monster wins. It misrepresents the games potential.

How would you all feel if we found out bonanza used this system? And they made sure to remove any wins over 3000x from the pool?

What initially intrigued me about this game was the enormous potential; if you get a bunch of jars you'd just keep winning bigger and bigger amounts almost indefinitely. But now we see that playing with the expectation of that being possible is false.

I'm not playing for money at the moment due to a shattering loss recently and frankly this kind of thing helps avoid the urge somewhat by removing the illusion that you actually have a chance at winning.

Yes I made this point earlier in the thread here - Jammin Jars

What players are going to see on games like Jammin' Jars is huge potential, 'Ooohhh if this drops in there it's going to be massive!', whilst not realising they are watching an entirely scripted series of events that will finish up representing what the original RNG call pulled. (i.e. What they are hoping to see happen, is impossible, because it doesn't exist in the 'backend' pool of results.)

It doesn't mean the games aren't random or fair from a results point of view, but I agree it is on dodgy ground from a misrepresentation point of view.

If nothing else, what we've proved here is that games such as Jammin' Jars do run as scratchcards in essence (as it would be a literal near statistical impossibility for those two bonus rounds to play out identically if each 'spin' in the reaction were a random and independent event), and IMO players should be informed of this via the help files as a statutory requirement. (In the same way UK AWPs have to have a label on them explaining they are compensated and that some gambles may be unwinnable.)

Also, by allowing slots and games to be developed in this way, they are able to display far more near misses and heart stoppers than would naturally be the case. (Compare and contrast with, say, Arctic Adventure at 3Dice, whereby honest spins with honest reelstrips in the bonus rounds make it quite clear how hard hitting a 5OAK during a big multiplier bonus round actually is.)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Ahhhh well, this explains where all the video's views have come from.....

Push Gaming could do with clarifying what happened here.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(Hope the direct link is OK?)

 

[brianmon]

Yes I made this point earlier in the thread here - Jammin Jars

What players are going to see on games like Jammin' Jars is huge potential, 'Ooohhh if this drops in there it's going to be massive!', whilst not realising they are watching an entirely scripted series of events that will finish up representing what the original RNG call pulled. (i.e. What they are hoping to see happen, is impossible, because it doesn't exist in the 'backend' pool of results.)

It doesn't mean the games aren't random or fair from a results point of view, but I agree it is on dodgy ground from a misrepresentation point of view.

If nothing else, what we've proved here is that games such as Jammin' Jars do run as scratchcards in essence (as it would be a literal near statistical impossibility for those two bonus rounds to play out identically if each 'spin' in the reaction were a random and independent event), and IMO players should be informed of this via the help files as a statutory requirement. (In the same way UK AWPs have to have a label on them explaining they are compensated and that some gambles may be unwinnable.)

Also, by allowing slots and games to be developed in this way, they are able to display far more near misses and heart stoppers than would naturally be the case. (Compare and contrast with, say, Arctic Adventure at 3Dice, whereby honest spins with honest reelstrips in the bonus rounds make it quite clear how hard hitting a 5OAK during a big multiplier bonus round actually is.)

Which also means that your starburst ambition of a screen full of bars may not be possible. The maximum win may be made up of the accumulation of wins from wild respins. The wild respins are, in effect, a feature and are triggered from one 'paid' spin.

 

[goatwack]

Ok I see, so slotters go on blind trust that the games give you a fair result, as they can't be arsed to display the results accordingly! They can just use stock footage and sequences whilst continuing to sell 243, 4096 & 117,149 ways to win!

But only 12 ways to show them

Once you have that disconnect then why trust the integrity of software companies altogether. They could be sending you any old 'random' shit

 

[TheresNoDInBonanza]

Ok I see, so slotters go on blind trust that the games give you a fair result, as they can't be arsed to display the results accordingly! They can just use stock footage and sequences whilst continuing to sell 243, 4096 & 117,149 ways to win!

But only 12 ways to show them

Once you have that disconnect then why trust the integrity of software companies altogether. They could be sending you any old 'random' shit

I think conflating the issue at hand in this manner doesn't help, it just allows people to respond to the other (already well trod) criticisms instead of the one at hand which for me boils down to allowing the player to assume any logical result is possible, however phenomenally unlikely, it should not be impossible.

Imagine spending days upon weeks upon years and tens of thousands of dollars trying to get 5 explorers on book of dead only to find out that there were none in the "pool"- that you never even had a chance.

 

[goatwack]

I think conflating the issue at hand in this manner doesn't help, it just allows people to respond to the other (already well trod) criticisms instead of the one at hand which for me boils down to allowing the player to assume any logical result is possible, however phenomenally unlikely, it should not be impossible.

Imagine spending days upon weeks upon years and tens of thousands of dollars trying to get 5 explorers on book of dead only to find out that there were none in the "pool"- that you never even had a chance.

Well quite clearly any result is not possible, and this bordering on fraud. If the game has a penchant for repetitively churning out the same sequence of predetermined visual wins, and is incapable of displaying every possible combination stipulated, then that tells me what some companies have been trying to hide for years....

-that the wins simply 'aren't there'