Jammin Jars

[deaconk78]

So these rules need updating then, do they not?

As it reads here, the player could reasonably expect the jam jars to move in any direction, including one that could make a far bigger pay than is going to be the case, as the round is pre-determined.

View attachment 95852

Amongst all the self congratulatory back slapping that is happening in this thread - you have made an excellent point and not the first .

Fighting against misinformation and for Fair Play should be commended. You gain nothing from it financially but we see so much BS from casinos that it's refreshing you don't mind asking the difficult questions .

Thanks

 

[brianmon]

It's not unethical at all. Mega Moolah is a poor slot with a dreadful RTP as 8% is in the progressives part. It cannot be that popular as with 8% progressive contribution it only needs 12 million spins (a relatively paltry amount) at £1 to grow the total pots by 1m and it takes weeks even allowing for minor and mini wins, so go figure its turnover compared to Bonanza! Playtech use a 0.99% RTP contribution to retain some kind of reward in the game itself outside the progressives, so they grow far more slowly.

I am not apologizing for any developer behaviour and I didn't say my theoretical Bonanza win wasn't possible but proposed that it would make no practical difference to the game IF it wasn't! To that end many games have different reels and possibilities in the bonus round to what occurs in the base game and this is what makes them more fun - if every slot simply copied the base game with just a multiplier added or multiplying wilds you'd end up with 2,000 IGT Cleopatras and 2000 WMS Raging Rhinos. Play Book Of Ra Deluxe - you all KNOW the FS reels are loaded with more scatters, I don't hear people whingeing? DoA has different reels in the FS and it's obvious there's a cap on Wilds of 11 or 12 but do people complain? Do people divorce themselves from common-sense and expect to hit 100,000x on a Megaways game at £20 in the bonus which would kill most casinos that it occurred in? This is why jackpot progressives exist in the first place, an affordable way for casinos to offer gigantic prizes where they don't meet the liability themselves.

I can clearly see the dilemma facing developers here when reading these kind of threads as it must be like BMW trying to explain every facet of their cars' On Board Computers to people when all the while they're probably thinking 'Just drive the fucking thing!'

So we all want Novomatic to make an addendum to their pay tables something like this:

"The maximum win here will occur when triggering the bonus, getting Explorer selected and hitting a full screen on all 10 spins for 50,000x total bet.
In the occurrence of retriggering the bonus this could rise to 100,000x bet. With two retriggers, 150,000x bet. With 9 retriggers 500,000x bet.

The Maximum win in the base game is 527.5x bet which is a full line of Explorers top left to bottom right with wild (1) on reel 1, Wild (3) on reel 2 Wild (4) on reel 3 and Wild (2) on reel 4. This will award 500x, plus 2.5x for 4OAK 10's twice, 20x for 4 Wilds alone and 5 lines of 0.5x consisting of queens/Wild."

Or Netent to have a 2TB list of possible Wild outcomes in the free games and all their possible pays?

Twin Spin to list all the possible pays for 1,2,3,4,6,8,9,12,24 and 27 5OAK 7's?

Is it not obvious Megaways reels are slightly different in the FS due to the inclusion of scatters only on the middle 4 reels, above or below?

I give up.

I'm sure most players here realise that the reels are different for features, and no one's saying that each combination should be listed in the paytable.

The point being made is that, if the layout of the symbols during a feature, insinuate, by their relative numbers and position within each reel. That that particular win combination should be possible. then it should be possible - however improbable it is.

It's like @trancemonkey says... he wouldn't design a game with stacked wilds on every reel. if it wasn't possible to hit a full screen of wilds.
If you were playing a game with stacked wilds on each reel in a feature. Wouldn't you expect a full screen to be possible?
Wouldn't you be pissed off, if you later found out that the pool of feature wins only had a maximum of 4 reels wild?

ps. if there is a cap for wilds in DOA. It must be at least 13 (although I did get the 13 with the old flash version)

 

[dunover]

So these rules need updating then, do they not?

As it reads here, the player could reasonably expect the jam jars to move in any direction, including one that could make a far bigger pay than is going to be the case, as the round is pre-determined.

View attachment 95852

Who says they can't move in any direction? They moved in the direction you saw as it was going to pay 1600x. The pay could have been 2000x and they'd have moved differently to produce that pay. It's only visuals old chum!

 

[dunover]

To clarify: what people are unhappy to find out is that their feature is predetermined- careful curated to limit liability, to give the illusion of having a slim chance when there actually is none.

Not just the features but also the Giant Fruit drops apparently, why would those need to be preset except to limit liability?

The entire premise of gambling is that the odds are against us but there's just that slim chance, vanishingly small that we could get that earth shattering win, if the jars only lined up just so, and why shouldn't they eventually, after all it's possible, right? So you put more spins through, spend more time and more money on what is actually an impossible pursuit, now not just unlikely, but hopeless.

Sounds like you would prefer National Lottery scratchcards whereby the pays, number of each of them, number of total cards and odds against each pay are listed. Nice and simple when you've only got 10 permutations of prize and a finite number of chances. Shame they pay 50% as opposed to 96% though. Then again, they can get away with it as people still buy them regardless.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Who says they can't move in any direction? They moved in the direction you saw as it was going to pay 1600x. The pay could have been 2000x and they'd have moved differently to produce that pay. It's only visuals old chum!

Come on old chap, you know that's not what 'randomly' means.

If we rewind any win sequence on Jammin' Jars and play the round again, the jam jars are always going to move in the same directions every single time. That's not random, it's a pre-determined sequence.

Push Gaming need to remove the word 'randomly' from those sentences. As it stands, they're a falsehood.

FWIW, I don't fundamentally object to the model that Jammin' Jars works on (I've already said I suspected as much on the channel, when I was playing Reactoonz), I do think it's crappy game design though.

EDIT - I also think it creates false expectations on the player's part, as it looks like things can happen that, in reality, are impossible.

 

[dunover]

Come on old chap, you know that's not what 'randomly' means.

If we rewind any win sequence on Jammin' Jars and play the round again, the jam jars are always going to move in the same directions every single time. That's not random, it's a pre-determined sequence.

Push Gaming need to remove the word 'randomly' from those sentences. As it stands, they're a falsehood.

FWIW, I don't fundamentally object to the model that Jammin' Jars works on (I've already said I suspected as much on the channel, when I was playing Reactoonz), I do think it's crappy game design though.

EDIT - I do think it creates false expectations on the player's part though, as it looks like things can happen that, in reality, are impossible.

Yes, it's a predetermined visual sequence for the RNG result ALREADY selected before the visuals began. Same as most other games. Expectations and insinuation are more in the mind of the player than the developer. The jars DO go in a random direction but this is decided by the game result before you see the graphics. I think you are thinking that somehow the graphics are ahead of the RNG and suddenly move the jars one way, which then makes the game calculate the appropriate win afterwards which is not how any slot works as far as I know!

Remember those Megaways games are highly complex and it's fine to say 'if there's 5 wilds reels they should all be able to land to give a full screen' but those type of slots are very simple and basic compared to complex and Megaways games with varying reel bands etc.

 

[sledge13]

Well my thread escalated a bit...

 

[deaconk78]

Yes, it's a predetermined visual sequence for the RNG result ALREADY selected before the visuals began. Same as most other games. Expectations and insinuation are more in the mind of the player than the developer. The jars DO go in a random direction but this is decided by the game result before you see the graphics. I think you are thinking that somehow the graphics are ahead of the RNG and suddenly move the jars one way, which then makes the game calculate the appropriate win afterwards which is not how any slot works as far as I know!

Remember those Megaways games are highly complex and it's fine to say 'if there's 5 wilds reels they should all be able to land to give a full screen' but those type of slots are very simple and basic compared to complex and Megaways games with varying reel bands etc.

random - explain how anything that is predetermined can be classed as random .

no one can state that a fruit on a feature board can move randomly in any direction when that pattern is predetermined .

the predetermined pattern for the win is randomly selected but that is not what the developer states about the feature being random . It leads you to believe that the feature is 'live' and each cascade is randomly generated .

 

[dunover]

random - explain how anything that is predetermined can be classed as random .

no one can state that a fruit on a feature board can move randomly in any direction when that pattern is predetermined .

the predetermined pattern for the win is randomly selected but that is not what the developer states about the feature being random . It leads you to believe that the feature is 'live' and each cascade is randomly generated .

You're not getting it. I said the RESULT is random and the graphic is generated AFTERWARDS to match the result. The GRAPHIC is predetermined. The trouble with this game is that all the graphics are there to represent one result, and you guys are seeing them as separate cascades, each action as a separate entity! Take for example the same scenario on Bonanza, a spin has paid, the replacement symbols descend and may or may not create another win but these were always going to be the same symbols from those reel/cascade positions and the outcome for that single spin was already known to the game, whether it comes in one action or 3 actions.

Jesus! Strop trying to overthink the games, play them and enjoy them or if you think they're rigged, don't play 'em! I'm outta here, bit of a risky place to stay if there's a thunderstorm.

 

[trancemonkey]

You're not getting it. I said the RESULT is random and the graphic is generated AFTERWARDS to match the result. The GRAPHIC is predetermined. The trouble with this game is that all the graphics are there to represent one result, and you guys are seeing them as separate cascades, each action as a separate entity! Take for example the same scenario on Bonanza, a spin has paid, the replacement symbols descend and may or may not create another win but these were always going to be the same symbols from those reel/cascade positions and the outcome for that single spin was already known to the game, whether it comes in one action or 3 actions.

Jesus! Strop trying to overthink the games, play them and enjoy them or if you think they're rigged, don't play 'em! I'm outta here, bit of a risky place to stay if there's a thunderstorm.

Dunover is doing my job for me .. thanks mate!

 

[dionysus]

Dunover is doing my job for me .. thanks mate!

lol, though I think he arrived quicker at 'well, then don't bloody play'.

 

[goatwack]

So, how are people finding this Jammin' Jars game?

 

[dunover]

Dunover is doing my job for me .. thanks mate!

Yeah, you sit in Las Vegas supping beer and enjoying yourself while I cower under a barrage of shiny metal....

 

[deaconk78]

lol @dunover and @trancemonkey

you both totally misunderstand the point . we all accept that the result is pre-selected and what happens is just a bit of fancy graphics .

the only random bit about the feature is which result is selected .

The developer states that the Jam Jar symbol will RANDOMLY move to an adjacent space after a win ready for the next cascade - but we all accept that the patterns that play out are predetermined so why use the word RANDOMLY?

the pattern is just not random .

it's not rocket science .

 

[Reelsoffun]

So these rules need updating then, do they not?

As it reads here, the player could reasonably expect the jam jars to move in any direction, including one that could make a far bigger pay than is going to be the case, as the round is pre-determined.

View attachment 95852

@Push Gaming Rep

Here is an amended bit of text for your game help page:-

If a Jam Jar Symbol contributes to a cluster Win, the symbol will move to a randomly selected, predetermined, adjacent, vacant position before the following Collapse occurs.

If a Jam Jar Symbol contributes to a cluster Win, the symbol will move to a randomly selected, predetermined, adjacent, vacant position before the following Collapse occurs.
This also happens before a Cascade occurs.


Your welcome.

 

[trancemonkey]

Yeah, you sit in Las Vegas supping beer and enjoying yourself while I cower under a barrage of shiny metal....

If you insist .

 

[trancemonkey]

lol @dunover and @trancemonkey

you both totally misunderstand the point . we all accept that the result is pre-selected and what happens is just a bit of fancy graphics .

the only random bit about the feature is which result is selected .

The developer states that the Jam Jar symbol will RANDOMLY move to an adjacent space after a win ready for the next cascade - but we all accept that the patterns that play out are predetermined so why use the word RANDOMLY?

the pattern is just not random .

it's not rocket science .

I can see why they've said "randomly" because they haven't forseen it as a problem. Arguably they should just remove the word randomly .. but again, they haven't legally done anything wrong. For all you know there could be multiple 1600x patterns where the jars can move in any direction. So you'd need to know exactly which one it was using...

Honestly, for me it's semantics .. l will get hate for that but I don't really mind. Should they change it? Maybe... But is it worth the effort and cost of recertifying when there is nothing legally wrong... I'd argue not. Just maybe don't do it again...

 

[goatwack]

Just change the phrasing to predeterminsated and everybody's happy

Or simply randomtermined

 

[dionysus]

Just change the phrasing to predeterminsated and everybody's happy

Or simply randomtermined

gods, its no longer compenrigged?
godsdamned teens and their text speak - i cant keep up

 

[goatwack]

gods, its no longer compenrigged?
godsdamned teens and their text speak - i cant keep up

Keep up gramps! I haven't even unleashed rigged-dom yet, an exclusive just for you

 

[smart_croatia]

text from bigwinboard site,

"If you have seen the mechanics at play in Jammin Jars you probably understand that there is an almost infinite number of combinations that can land during any spin on the 8×8 reel set, let alone during the run of a whole bonus. These two streamers, as it turns out, had the same win sequences played out, down to the last spin, even ending up having the exact same 1660.15 xbet wins."
"It’s hard to imagine that it’s the result of sloppy coding that we’re witnessing – for several reasons. Slots are tested and evaluated with millions of spins before becoming certified, and besides, what is the chance of a ‘bug’ happening to two different streamers in temporal proximity. If it were the case, it would undoubtedly indicate serious issues with not only Push Gaming, but the testing agency as well."

 

[snorky510238]

If providers just refrained from using the word “random” 99% of debates would not exist!

 

[Chipkin9]

So, how are people finding this Jammin' Jars game?

It's actually a pretty trash game...Worse than Reactoonz which runs at under 50% RTP consistently unless you get the 750x from the pink boyos on the Crapatoon feature.

So yea, it's awful

 

[deaconk78]

I can see why they've said "randomly" because they haven't forseen it as a problem. Arguably they should just remove the word randomly .. but again, they haven't legally done anything wrong. For all you know there could be multiple 1600x patterns where the jars can move in any direction. So you'd need to know exactly which one it was using...

Honestly, for me it's semantics .. l will get hate for that but I don't really mind. Should they change it? Maybe... But is it worth the effort and cost of recertifying when there is nothing legally wrong... I'd argue not. Just maybe don't do it again...

why would you need to know the pattern it is using if it is predetermined ? nothing about where it moves is random. it only APPEARS to move randomly . People believed that the bonus rounds were 'live' so using the word randomly is misleading . If the 2 videos hadn't appeared then we would be none the wiser.

It's a little bit like people who play roulette on FOBTS and watch the little wheel display not understanding the number was selected as soon as they hit the start button - it doesn't affect the overall result .

It's about clarity . I've always believed that bonus rounds are predetermined and i just like to watch what i have won - some believe that they can close a game down if they have a couple of bad spins and come back to it later for better randomness .
might seem like quite a small thing but in an industry with more than it's fair share of knockers - it certainly doesn't build up the trust as people like to believe what they read . ( i can't read as the tin foil hat was delivered yesterday and the size was randomly selected ( they only had large though - so predetermined ?) and it covers my eyes ! )

 

[ChopleyIOM]

You're not getting it. I said the RESULT is random and the graphic is generated AFTERWARDS to match the result. The GRAPHIC is predetermined. The trouble with this game is that all the graphics are there to represent one result, and you guys are seeing them as separate cascades, each action as a separate entity!

Jesus! Strop trying to overthink the games, play them and enjoy them or if you think they're rigged, don't play 'em! I'm outta here, bit of a risky place to stay if there's a thunderstorm.

Honestly dunover, I get it, I understand exactly what's happening, there's no need to get cross or patronise people, and neither myself or deacon are suggesting it's rigged. In fact, I've explicitly stated several times in this thread that the game can be entirely random and fair, working exactly as it does now. (I've also repeatedly demonstrated a perfectly solid understanding of how the game works, and indeed reached pretty much the same conclusion in one of the earlier videos on my channel when I was playing Reactoonz.)

Indeed, trancemonkey himself (who I'd say is the gold standard for knowledge and facts here) replied with 'Nail. Head.' in response to one of my earlier posts making this very point.

My issues with the game are as follows:

1) It creates false expectations on the part of the player as to what is and isn't possible, who may believe, quite understandably, that just about any cascade, or reaction, or jam jar move etc could result in a huge chain or win if the 'right thing' happened. I get that the original RNG call was entirely fair and random, but it creates a total disconnect between the 'frontend' and the 'backend' as it were.

We've now been told that the maximum win is 20,000x stake, however a player could theorise any number of possible pays far bigger than that based on what they've seen the game do, and then extrapolating that out to 'Ahhh but if Thing X landed in Position Y, this would be the pay'. (Especially with the rules explicitly stating that the Jam Jars move randomly, which leads onto Point 2.)

2) The rules state:

If a Jam Jar contributes to a Cluster Win, the symbol will randomly move to an adjacent, vacant position before the following Collapse occurs.

The word 'randomly' should be removed from that sentence, the movement of the Jam Jar is not random. They don't even need to put the word 'predetermined' in there, just remove the word 'randomly'.

Go back to the two streamer videos that kicked all this off, that 1600x win is an RNG pick from the backend, and the win sequence was created to represent that call from the RNG, absolutely nothing about it is random, including the movement of the jam jars.

My take on this game is that it's a bit of a rush job, everything about it seems rather lazy to me, and it's a crappy maths model to use for a game full stop, as we've seen in this very thread, when two streamers hit identical RNG calls and win sequences live on air before it'd even been out a week.

 

[Chipkin9]

If providers just refrained from using the word “random” 99% of debates would not exist!

I think that's why a lot of us here use the term Pseudo Random, because that's exactly what it is.

While all slots are "Random" they do come from a limited amount of pool results that are preprogrammed into the game.

So for example a game may only have 5,000 programed results into it ranging from zero pay to 5,000x, and when you press spin, the server fecthes one of those results for you; which is the random part.

 

[smart_croatia]

both wins are 1660.15 xbet

 

[deaconk78]

both wins are 1660.15 xbet

i think the kids call that RANDOM posting

 

[Chipkin9]

Honestly dunover, I get it, I understand exactly what's happening, there's no need to get cross or patronise people, and neither myself or deacon are suggesting it's rigged. In fact, I've explicitly stated several times in this thread that the game can be entirely random and fair, working exactly as it does now. (I've also repeatedly demonstrated a perfectly solid understanding of how the game works, and indeed reached pretty much the same conclusion in one of the earlier videos on my channel when I was playing Reactoonz.)

Indeed, trancemonkey himself (who I'd say is the gold standard for knowledge and facts here) replied with 'Nail. Head.' in response to one of my earlier posts making this very point.

My issues with the game are as follows:

1) It creates false expectations on the part of the player as to what is and isn't possible, who may believe, quite understandably, that just about any cascade, or reaction, or jam jar move etc could result in a huge chain or win if the 'right thing' happened. I get that the original RNG call was entirely fair and random, but it creates a total disconnect between the 'frontend' and the 'backend' as it were.

We've now been told that the maximum win is 20,000x stake, however a player could theorise any number of possible pays far bigger than that based on what they've seen the game do, and then extrapolating that out to 'Ahhh but if Thing X landed in Position Y, this would be the pay'. (Especially with the rules explicitly stating that the Jam Jars move randomly, which leads onto Point 2.)

2) The rules state:

If a Jam Jar contributes to a Cluster Win, the symbol will randomly move to an adjacent, vacant position before the following Collapse occurs.

The word 'randomly' should be removed from that sentence, the movement of the Jam Jar is not random. They don't even need to put the word 'predetermined' in there, just remove the word 'randomly'.

Go back to the two streamer videos that kicked all this off, that 1600x win is an RNG pick from the backend, and the win sequence was created to represent that call from the RNG, absolutely nothing about it is random, including the movement of the jam jars.

My take on this game is that it's a bit of a rush job, everything about it seems rather lazy to me, and it's a crappy maths model to use for a game full stop, as we've seen in this very thread, when two streamers hit identical RNG calls and win sequences live on air before it'd even been out a week.

View attachment 95855

How many people do you think still play Twin Spin under the illusion that a full screen of Diamonds is possible?

I only found out it wasn't possible when dunover stated this to me after inquiring about it.

I think it's unethical not to state this in the paytable, it's clearly exploitive.

I also posted on the Afterlife Inferno thread that the reason this game was so good was because the wins and paytables were actually achievable, akin to Microgaming slots.

Who wants to play a game where results aren't possible, whereby the game gives the impression that it is?

Not me, and developers should not be giving this impression if it's not possible.

 

[KasinoKing]

So, how are people finding this Jammin' Jars game?

Well I'm loving it, obviously...

KK

 

[Reelsoffun]

I think that's why a lot of us here use the term Pseudo Random, because that's exactly what it is.

While all slots are "Random" they do come from a limited amount of pool results that are preprogrammed into the game.

So for example a game may only have 5,000 programed results into it ranging from zero pay to 5,000x, and when you press spin, the server fecthes one of those results for you; which is the random part.

This statement is also incorrect.

Only some games work this way, there will be countless games where all reel positions are possible and the math worked out accordingly. Eg traditional 5 reel slots

 

[Chipkin9]

Just change the phrasing to predeterminsated and everybody's happy

Or simply randomtermined

Randigged, I like that one

 

[Chipkin9]

This statement is also incorrect.

Only some games work this way, there will be countless games where all reel positions are possible and the math worked out accordingly. Eg traditional 5 reel slots

Yes sorry, you're correct. I meant with particular games such as this one

 

[smart_croatia]

if only i did read this thread yedsterday fml

 

[Reelsoffun]

Yes sorry, you're correct. I meant with particular games such as this one

No worries

 

[dunover]

Honestly dunover, I get it, I understand exactly what's happening, there's no need to get cross or patronise people, and neither myself or deacon are suggesting it's rigged. In fact, I've explicitly stated several times in this thread that the game can be entirely random and fair, working exactly as it does now. (I've also repeatedly demonstrated a perfectly solid understanding of how the game works, and indeed reached pretty much the same conclusion in one of the earlier videos on my channel when I was playing Reactoonz.)

Indeed, trancemonkey himself (who I'd say is the gold standard for knowledge and facts here) replied with 'Nail. Head.' in response to one of my earlier posts making this very point.

My issues with the game are as follows:

1) It creates false expectations on the part of the player as to what is and isn't possible, who may believe, quite understandably, that just about any cascade, or reaction, or jam jar move etc could result in a huge chain or win if the 'right thing' happened. I get that the original RNG call was entirely fair and random, but it creates a total disconnect between the 'frontend' and the 'backend' as it were.

We've now been told that the maximum win is 20,000x stake, however a player could theorise any number of possible pays far bigger than that based on what they've seen the game do, and then extrapolating that out to 'Ahhh but if Thing X landed in Position Y, this would be the pay'. (Especially with the rules explicitly stating that the Jam Jars move randomly, which leads onto Point 2.)

2) The rules state:

If a Jam Jar contributes to a Cluster Win, the symbol will randomly move to an adjacent, vacant position before the following Collapse occurs.

The word 'randomly' should be removed from that sentence, the movement of the Jam Jar is not random. They don't even need to put the word 'predetermined' in there, just remove the word 'randomly'.

Go back to the two streamer videos that kicked all this off, that 1600x win is an RNG pick from the backend, and the win sequence was created to represent that call from the RNG, absolutely nothing about it is random, including the movement of the jam jars.

My take on this game is that it's a bit of a rush job, everything about it seems rather lazy to me, and it's a crappy maths model to use for a game full stop, as we've seen in this very thread, when two streamers hit identical RNG calls and win sequences live on air before it'd even been out a week.

View attachment 95855

No you haven't said it's rigged per se but have inferred (see that word again, 'inferred' - it works both ways!) that something was amiss due to 2 players pulling the same rare high-paying result on the game. The odds are over a million/1 apparently. A Bonanza player hit over 14000x, a result I'd estimate to be in the hundreds of millions to one range and that is hugely more unlikely. But it happened. As did the Hungarian or Bulgarian? lottery producing the same 6 numbers in 2 consecutive draws a few years back, which is around 14,000,000/1 against. That's random for ya!

I accept they could have worded it better, but we are overlooking another possibility here - it's entirely possible that a small win may occur by the jars moving, indeed randomly and this result at some point or permutation of symbols then triggers the big win on top, which is a fixed amount (in this case 1600x) in which the graphics will show the jars moving in the only direction that is possible to make the triggered win. In other words, imagine getting 3 scatters with a small win, which pays 'X' amount then a bonus which pays 'Y' on top. In this case the jars may have moved both randomly in the initial action, then 'post-trigger' in a fixed sequence of movements. It all depends how they've designed the game. It should never be played by anyone again, ever.

It's 'rixed' or 'fandom' then.

 

[Chipkin9]

Well I'm loving it, obviously...

View attachment 95863

KK

That pathetic RTP is typical of all Push Gaming slots.

I initially thought that Fat Rabbit & Tiki Tumble were pretty good games because my first time playing them I managed a 150x+ & 200x+ respectively on my first time playing them.

I couldn't have been more wrong. The games are pathetic money drainers. I had to close my Slotsmillion account until December because my results were so shockingly bad. I ended up being 1,500x down (under 45% RTP) with 2 bonuses on Tiki Tumble that paid Zero (You read that right) and 5x.

Good Luck triggering the bonus on Push Slots

Needless to say it's a provder I will be avoiding.

 

[brianmon]

I accept they could have worded it better, but we are overlooking another possibility here - it's entirely possible that a small win may occur by the jars moving, indeed randomly and this result at some point or permutation of symbols then triggers the big win on top, which is a fixed amount (in this case 1600x) in which the graphics will show the jars moving in the only direction that is possible to make the triggered win. In other words, imagine getting 3 scatters with a small win, which pays 'X' amount then a bonus which pays 'Y' on top. In this case the jars may have moved both randomly in the initial action, then 'post-trigger' in a fixed sequence of movements. It all depends how they've designed the game. It should never be played by anyone again, ever.

It's 'rixed' or 'fandom' then.

Except the guy from Push Gaming said "The game does work by randomly picking a win/loss from an extensive pool of results"

So, as soon as spin is pressed a predetermined sequence of events is selected. It's ONE sequence of events (or non-event, if it's a losing spin).
There are no random movements, which could trigger anything else.

The 'random' movements all happened during development, and that sequence of events were either added to the pool of wins or discarded

 

[Balthazar]

For those good at probability and statistics, think about the mathematical nightmare it would be to make a TRTP if every little square would act 100% ramdomly and independent on each spin, with the jars moving around and increasing the multiplier. No, seriously, just take a few seconds to think about it. I'll wait.

Has your head exploded yet?

I don't know about you guys but there are three things that I care about when I play a slot:

1- Is it fun to play?
2- What's the RTP?
3- What's the volatility?

It pretty much ends there.

I do like to learn more about what happens behind the slots though, so thanks to @trancemonkey and @Push Gaming Rep

 

[Push Gaming Rep]

To clarify: what people are unhappy to find out is that their feature is predetermined- careful curated to limit liability, to give the illusion of having a slim chance when there actually is none.

Not just the features but also the Giant Fruit drops apparently, why would those need to be preset except to limit liability?

The entire premise of gambling is that the odds are against us but there's just that slim chance, vanishingly small that we could get that earth shattering win, if the jars only lined up just so, and why shouldn't they eventually, after all it's possible, right? So you put more spins through, spend more time and more money on what is actually an impossible pursuit, now not just unlikely, but hopeless.

The maths works from a pool of predetermined results because that is the only way to achieve making a game like this. That pool has a very high number of options which are then triggered randomly. The reason for this was never to limit the maximum amounts that a player could win, It was just the only way complicated winning streaks and combinations could be calculated. I think you will find the opposite is the case with Push games in regards to limiting player wins, a number of our titles are unlimited theoretically and this game in particular which is not has a 20,000X potential which is a lot more than most games on the market.

 

[trancemonkey]

why would you need to know the pattern it is using if it is predetermined ? nothing about where it moves is random. it only APPEARS to move randomly . People believed that the bonus rounds were 'live' so using the word randomly is misleading . If the 2 videos hadn't appeared then we would be none the wiser.

It's a little bit like people who play roulette on FOBTS and watch the little wheel display not understanding the number was selected as soon as they hit the start button - it doesn't affect the overall result .

It's about clarity . I've always believed that bonus rounds are predetermined and i just like to watch what i have won - some believe that they can close a game down if they have a couple of bad spins and come back to it later for better randomness .
might seem like quite a small thing but in an industry with more than it's fair share of knockers - it certainly doesn't build up the trust as people like to believe what they read . ( i can't read as the tin foil hat was delivered yesterday and the size was randomly selected ( they only had large though - so predetermined ?) and it covers my eyes ! )

And on some games they would be right....

 

[lotusch]

This thread ended up in a very interesting debate really.
I am reading some really interesting point of views and opinions.

 

[trancemonkey]

For those good at probability and statistics, think about the mathematical nightmare it would be to make a TRTP if every little square would act 100% ramdomly and independent on each spin, with the jars moving around and increasing the multiplier. No, seriously, just take a few seconds to think about it. I'll wait.

Has your head exploded yet?

I don't know about you guys but there are three things that I care about when I play a slot:

1- Is it fun to play?
2- What's the RTP?
3- What's the volatility?

It pretty much ends there.

I do like to learn more about what happens behind the slots though, so thanks to @trancemonkey and @Push Gaming Rep

It would be difficult but not impossible... imagine how many combinations there are on that grid.

 

[trancemonkey]

Except the guy from Push Gaming said "The game does work by randomly picking a win/loss from an extensive pool of results"

So, as soon as spin is pressed a predetermined sequence of events is selected. It's ONE sequence of events (or non-event, if it's a losing spin).
There are no random movements, which could trigger anything else.

The 'random' movements all happened during development, and that sequence of events were either added to the pool of wins or discarded

And when you press start on a slot game the reel stops are determined and where they land in view is no longer random. The decision has been made.

I think we can end this debate quite easily by again repeating that they arguably should just have removed the word randomly from that sentence in order not to mislead anyone.

However what they should definitely NOT have to do is explain to people how they do their maths. Randomly picking from a pool of results is perfectly legal and fair.

It is one of many many ways of doing a "slot" game... we are not at liberty to, and nor should we be expected to, disclose how we do the maths for games. As long as they are legal and fair then that is where it should end.

Bring on the hatred

 

[goatwack]

And when you press start on a slot game the reel stops are determined and where they land in view is no longer random. The decision has been made.

I think we can end this debate quite easily by again repeating that they arguably should just have removed the word randomly from that sentence in order not to mislead anyone.

However what they should definitely NOT have to do is explain to people how they do their maths. Randomly picking from a pool of results is perfectly legal and fair.

It is one of many many ways of doing a "slot" game... we are not at liberty to, and nor should we be expected to, disclose how we do the maths for games. As long as they are legal and fair then that is where it should end.

Bring on the hatred

I can't bring myself to hate you, sweet cheeks

 

[trancemonkey]

I can't bring myself to hate you, sweet cheeks

Love you too my wonderful caprine friend

 

[09237653]

I had 38% over 515 spins on this game a few days ago, not sure ill be playing it again def something dodgy going on here.

Who's the guy that "sims" the games we need him to sim this game for a couple of billion spins and see if any two spins are identical.

 

[dionysus]

I suddenly envisage trance staring at any random (ha!) rigged thread and going 'why can't ah quit you?'

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Here's my take on it all, taking into account all commentary and input over the last few days, including the most recent input from Push Gaming themselves.

 

[lotusch]

Oh something to watch