Jammin Jars

[trancemonkey]

Off topic but this is exactly how Washington State runs their B&M casinos (Indian Run), its all based on lottery system, every single slot.

Yup... It's called a CDS or Centrally Determined System. I believe they have a relatively small pool of possivle outcomes as well... Can't remember the exact number but it will be publicly available in the technical standards somewhere...

 

[trancemonkey]

Not to cast aspersions, but maybe its harder to maintain a truly honest objective view when you begin to have personal/business relationships with developers in the industry.

Or maybe, just maybe, it's easier to see if from their (our) side rather than just make uninformed guesses to further the anchor bias some people already have?

 

[trancemonkey]

OK let's make a slot. It's really simple. There are 2 reels, like a pair of dice with 1-6 on each. The game only pays if you spin in any combination of 7. So there are 6 ways to do it, 1-6, 2-5, 3-4, 4-3, 5-2 and 6-1.
We represent them in the 'pot' so-to-speak with the first 6 spectrum colours, Red, orange, yellow, green , blue and indigo. The rest of the balls in the pot are losing white ones.
If you pull the 'red' out you get 1-6 on the reels. You pull orange out, you get 2-5 showing for the same win amount. And so-on.

To make things quicker and simpler, I make all 6 winning balls red. So every time the RNG selects 'win' for 7, the reels will ALWAYS show 1-6. You simply wouldn't see 2-5 or 3-4 on the reels.

The RNG results pool in values is exactly the same, the odds exactly the same and the RTP too.

It simply isn't necessary to have the reels stop separately when the equivalent result range is set in the pool of RNG values. Transpose that idea to complex online slots and you then get it - I hope.

I'll just make sure not to say 'each reel stops randomly' in the rules lol.

If I make this slot please don't start a thread "Dunover's Dice slot pays 2 streamers the same 1-6 win within 2 spins - aarrgghhhhh!"

Careful Dunover .. I'd suggest that the vast majority of games don't use "pooling". Those that do will be the extremely complex ones (Reactoonz and the like) and possibly something like Laser Fruit might as that is quite complex. But for the vast majority of decent slot games they are likely using reel bands in one way or another.

 

[trancemonkey]

This is The Chewbacca Defence again, isn't it

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How do you even know about that

 

[SpinUk]

Careful Dunover .. I'd suggest that the vast majority of games don't use "pooling". Those that do will be the extremely complex ones (Reactoonz and the like) and possibly something like Laser Fruit might as that is quite complex. But for the vast majority of decent slot games they are likely using reel bands in one way or another.

But why bother as a developer with the reel bands - why not make every game from a pooling system - seems a lot easier from a development point of view...

 

[dunover]

Careful Dunover .. I'd suggest that the vast majority of games don't use "pooling". Those that do will be the extremely complex ones (Reactoonz and the like) and possibly something like Laser Fruit might as that is quite complex. But for the vast majority of decent slot games they are likely using reel bands in one way or another.

I was trying to make a simplified example in reference to how the Jammin' Jars game seems likely (to me anyway) to work as it's funnily enough a complex game along the lines of those you mention here. What's your opinion on JJ then? Would you say it uses pooling - or not?

 

[dunover]

How do you even know about that

The clue is in the link and begins with 'w'

 

[brianmon]

I was trying to make a simplified example in reference to how the Jammin' Jars game seems likely (to me anyway) to work as it's funnily enough a complex game along the lines of those you mention here. What's your opinion on JJ then? Would you say it uses pooling - or not?

But you also referenced TSII a few posts ago, saying that it also used a limited pool of outcomes

 

[Jono777]

My head hurts

 

[Harry_BKK]

My head hurts

Mine too.

 

[goatwack]

I'm still stuck at the streamers part

 

[dunover]

But you also referenced TSII a few posts ago, saying that it also used a limited pool of outcomes

Yes, I 100% believe that it does, based on a lot of play, having seen the reel maps for it once and having noted the repetitive reel configurations of the most common spin values. Let's just say I'd be quite surprised if it didn't. I think we can safely say the IGT don't do this from what TM said but as for some of the other 170-odd developers, who knows? Or is it just done for certain games like those he mentoned that could use pooling?

P.S. to avoid any doubt about this, what I mean is that say there were 3,000 configurations that could pay 0.16x (i.e. 3x 10 or 9) I am 100% convinced that the graphical representations the game has don't come close to 3,000. They could use any number between 2 and 3000 if you think about it - I am saying they only use a limited number of graphic representations IMHO.

 

[goatwack]

This is why the influx of slots (like at VS) is just ridiculous now, no one's going to play even half those games.

And with 170+ developers knocking out any old guff it's resembling overkill. We can't even decipher the workings of the games in circulation now, were it not for some freak streaming scandal.

With this slots over-saturation I'm not even confident half of them are fit for purpose, God knows what secret magical maths formulas we don't even know about

Hopefully the slotting industry will crash and then have a bit of a clearout

 

[Balthazar]

delete

 

[Balthazar]

Yes, I 100% believe that it does, based on a lot of play, having seen the reel maps for it once and having noted the repetitive reel configurations of the most common spin values. Let's just say I'd be quite surprised if it didn't.

Pretty sure TSII (and IR) have been proven in the past to work on random reel stops in the base game. (Bonuses are a totally different animal.)

 

[Playford7]

Maybe some of the tin-foilers will be more likely to believe me now... but i doubt it

Won’t ever happen lol.
Your here to suffer mate lol

 

[Playford7]

So, how are people finding this Jammin' Jars game?

It’s awesome. Got about 500 1600x wins. All identical to the last...

 

[Playford7]

And when you press start on a slot game the reel stops are determined and where they land in view is no longer random. The decision has been made.

I think we can end this debate quite easily by again repeating that they arguably should just have removed the word randomly from that sentence in order not to mislead anyone.

However what they should definitely NOT have to do is explain to people how they do their maths. Randomly picking from a pool of results is perfectly legal and fair.

It is one of many many ways of doing a "slot" game... we are not at liberty to, and nor should we be expected to, disclose how we do the maths for games. As long as they are legal and fair then that is where it should end.

Bring on the hatred

Seriously give up.
This will run and run until the end of time.
There’s people who believe there rigged and the rest whom accept there random.
Kudos for your patience however lol

 

[Playford7]

I know is not related to the post but since it's been discused here maybe somebody can illuminate me

so, is he "fake" or not
and what fake means ?

thanks!

Does it really matter?...
The guys a clown

 

[goatwack]

delete

I didn't think my post was that bad

 

[trancemonkey]

But why bother as a developer with the reel bands - why not make every game from a pooling system - seems a lot easier from a development point of view...

Because reel bands give you much more freedom on a normal game... And then every outcome IS possible. Plus reel games can mostly be calculated in Excel ... Whereas pooling would require simulation.

 

[trancemonkey]

But you also referenced TSII a few posts ago, saying that it also used a limited pool of outcomes

I don't believe TS2 uses anything other than reel bands. Not pooling.

 

[trancemonkey]

I was trying to make a simplified example in reference to how the Jammin' Jars game seems likely (to me anyway) to work as it's funnily enough a complex game along the lines of those you mention here. What's your opinion on JJ then? Would you say it uses pooling - or not?

As I said very early on when this kicked off, I knew pooling was the way they had to have done it

 

[shadow123]

Dont really think it matters how the wins are presented,if a winning or losing game is selected from a pool
at random,it is true to say that the outcome of each game is random.The fact that certain reel combinations
may never be shown is not really important.Its been a long time since what you see is what you get on
most games

 

[sufferinsilence]

Tried this game with a €20 leftover after a withdrawal on min bets of 20c... It didn't go to plan, I didn't get my 1600x It's also everything I'm going to feed this game.

 

[goatwack]

Hold on....I've lost 20 Euros on 20c bets too, within the same day as you.............

This can only mean..............



that I should have played something else

 

[deaconk78]

Dont really think it matters how the wins are presented,if a winning or losing game is selected from a pool
at random,it is true to say that the outcome of each game is random.The fact that certain reel combinations
may never be shown is not really important.Its been a long time since what you see is what you get on
most games

i don't believe that people had an issue with how wins are picked at random but rather that they were lead to believe one type of randomness was being used when in fact it was a different kind of randomness.

what @ChopleyIOM was and is trying to do is make the differences clearer for the masses rather than the few . Not everyone uses a forum and not everyone will have seen this discussion . It is no use saying "well it's quite obvious that they use a pool of predetermined results" nor is it of that much use @Push Gaming Rep replying on a few forums because we can't expect every tom dick or harry to research every finer point before they play a slot .

just be clear to the masses ' This is how X works" ( no need for mathematical formulas to be shown)

It's not right to just say " it's just incorrectly worded" " bad choice of words" - let's forget about it now .

The developers ( all developers ) know the distinct differences between a predetermined visual lights and sound show and a truly random and live in play bonus round / base game spin . ( reading this forum an awful lot i notice that people love the idea of 'anything can happen' spins )

this is just one game from one developer that tells you it does one thing and in fact does another .

how many more are misleading in their claims ?

 

[TheAddict]

.....

 

[gokkie]

7 sessions:
16%
16%
55%
55%
35%
75%
59%

 

[aceking123]

Classic job seems a few people are back tracking, maybe just a turning point players needed to see )

 

[sledge13]

Maybe we should all just stop playing, hit them where it hurts!

 

[goatwack]

Thing is, if it were bent, people would still play it.

If DOA was rigged, it would matter not. Same as Bonanza!

The real annoyance is developers' withholding key information and treating players like children.

Just tell us if the games are compenriggscriptulated, as Jon would say

 

[ChopleyIOM]

What's 'highly unlikely' multiplied by 'highly unlikely'?

SPOILER ALERT - Quite likely, apparently.

 

[sledge13]

Thanks cheers slots, I don't like been robbed, goodbye.

 

[goatwack]

Ok, d'ya want another go? Yeah gimme another pound

1600

Oh well done fantastic, are you a streamer

 

[brianmon]

Maybe Push Gaming could do a CM Exclusive competition.
With a prize for the member who posts the most duplicate steamer win videos

 

[jasonuk]

In this era of what feels like always-on streamers (we're doing it for our own amusement, honest guv... not), I think this will be a big lesson to other slot designers.

If we take most of the MG catalogue, we're talking many billions of combinations of the reel strips - that's not including all the combinations-of-combinations in the various bonus rounds (which would trivially push us into trillions and beyond). For a slot of this complexity to only have a million or so rendered outcomes seems pretty lazy, and I hope people vote with their wallets.

Given the duplicate 497x wins, is it the case that the entire game round (base spin + six free spins) are scripted the same? That feels even worse to me, that the bonus round has been determined from the same RNG call as the feature trigger. Instead of potentially dozens of RNG calls and opportunities to win or lose, we potentially have one? In that case it's a scratchcard in all but name...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Given the duplicate 497x wins, is it the case that the entire game round (base spin + six free spins) are scripted the same? That feels even worse to me, that the bonus round has been determined from the same RNG call as the feature trigger. Instead of potentially dozens of RNG calls and opportunities to win or lose, we potentially have one? In that case it's a scratchcard in all but name...

Watching the videos it looks like the entire sequence from the base round into the free spins is one scripted sequence, as the third jar to trigger the free spins drops down during a base game cascade.

I'm thinking the 1.3M possible results is the entire pool, and there's no extra pool for free spins. So that's base game hits, free spins dropping in, and base game cascades leading into free spins, all scripted as single pulls from that 1.3M pool of results.

If that's the case, I suspect we'll be seeing rather more of these going forward.

Thing is, to the casual observer it really just looks like a totally rigged and bent game, so Push Gaming are doing the entire industry a disservice here.

 

[goatwack]

Watching the videos it looks like the entire sequence from the base round into the free spins is one scripted sequence, as the third jar to trigger the free spins drops down during a base game cascade.

I'm thinking the 1.3M possible results is the entire pool, and there's no extra pool for free spins. So that's base game hits, free spins dropping in, and base game cascades leading into free spins, all scripted as single pulls from that 1.3M pool of results.

If that's the case, I suspect we'll be seeing rather more of these going forward.

Thing is, to the casual observer it really just looks like a totally rigged and bent game, so Push Gaming are doing the entire industry a disservice here.

For sure, the fault lies with Push Gaming first and foremost. I shan't imagine 4 streamers would willingly expose themselves for the sake of 100 extra viewers, they're just going on what's being.....streamed to them

Best thing any streamer can do at this point is drop this game like a hot potato

 

[TheAddict]

Thanks chop, nearly spat an entire mouthfull of spag bowl over my tablet when you said:
"Degsys big ball bag game..."

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Thanks chop, nearly spat an entire mouthfull of spag bowl over my tablet when you said:
"Degsys big ball bag game..."

That was to give Mrs Degsy a chuckle more than anything else (We've got quite a juvenile sense of humour sometimes....... )

 

[lotusch]

Mikka Pekka I like though..
He plays more human bets and together with Fatsoplays (who has a big break or did quit) I really do like them. ^^

On the video, I am absolutely gobsmacked.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Last one on this for now. (Hopefully!)

 

[goatwack]

So in summary, Jammin' Jars has 1.3 million ways to win

but only 13 win animations

 

[miikapekka]

Hello everyone.

I've been reading this thread even before I was showed the video where my win was featured.

My win wasn't actually from a stream. It was just a casual bullet I did on my own (I record all my play). I use OBS to record so that's why the overlay.

I do agree that all these identical wins are definitely weird and the fact that we posted the videos on the same day, but I can confirm that there is no foul play going on - believe me or not

I hope Push Gaming can shed some more light on the issue. I would be interested in learning more too.

 

[Balthazar]

I do agree that all these identical wins are definitely weird and the fact that we posted the videos on the same day, but I can confirm that there is no foul play going on - believe me or not

I believe you.

 

[Jd666]

Im going to have about 8 streams open all at once.
Keep flicking through them and when one of them gets a big fuck off bonus, Im going to play the slot and get a big fuck off bonus as well.
Will that work

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Im going to have about 8 streams open all at once.
Keep flicking through them and when one of them gets a big fuck off bonus, Im going to play the slot and get a big fuck off bonus as well.
Will that work

I honestly think the problem here is with Push Gaming. 1.3M possible results isn't even close to enough for a game like this, especially when the animations are so long and complex (or rather, present the illusion of complexity). Unless this game gets changed, we're going to be seeing a few more of these sorts of occurrences, and every time it happens, more and more people are going to be convinced it's evidence that the games are rigged.

The comments on my videos are relentlessly negative against the streamers, a lot of folks see this is as straightforward validation for what they've clearly always suspected, which is that streamers are fake, are given 'enhanced versions' of games to play, and that these streamers hitting the same big wins on video are the smoking gun of corruption and collusion. (And let's be clear about this, at the end of the day, affiliated streamers make money when 'their' players lose, so it's not a stretch to understand why so many players feel such antipathy towards the streamers.)

I've tried to address this issue as factually as I can with the previous video ('Why Jammin' Jars isn't good enough') but the fact is that for a lot of people their minds are already made up - but if I'm honest, I'm short on sympathy for the streamers.

 

[slotter999]

@ChopleyIOM Did push gaming say there are only 1.3 Mio possible results or did they say it was a 1 in 1.3mio chance of occurring? They are not the same thing. I read it as the odds of it occuring being 1 in 1.3mio and not 1.3mio possible outcomes.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

@ChopleyIOM Did push gaming say there are only 1.3 Mio possible results or did they say it was a 1 in 1.3mio chance of occurring? They are not the same thing. I read it as the odds of it occuring being 1 in 1.3mio and not 1.3mio possible outcomes.

Well if it's the latter (1 in 1.3M chance of it occurring) then it makes it happening for a second time to another pair of streamers almost vanishingly unlikely.

This is why I think this sort of game is nonsense, the frontend is entirely divorced from the backend, they may as well just use pictures of root vegetables to represent the wins.

125x stake - have a picture of an onion and a carrot to look at!