Jammin Jars

[jasonuk]

All this bravado about consumer protection, fraud and the like (and equal hyperbole on the other side) ... and yet no-one has touched on the actual regulations, which for the UK would be the Old / Expired Link. The key sections appear to be RTS 3 (Rules, Game Descriptions & Likelihood of Winning), RTS 5 (Result Determination) and RTS 7 (Generation of Random Outcomes).

I'm surprised how many industry people are saying everything is fine if the game rules are wrong, given RTS 5 and RTS 7B both infer that the game rules are gospel. Perhaps it would be seen as a slap-on-the-wrist offense, but RTS compliance is still part of the licensing. (Formatting added for ease of reading)

RTS aim 5: To ensure that the gambling system implements the operator’s rules, game rules and betting rules as they are described to the customer.

RTS requirement 5A: All reasonable steps should be taken to ensure that gambles are accepted, processed and settled in accordance with the operators’ published terms and rules, and the rules of the specific game, event, or bet. Where unexpected system flaws, faults, or errors (cont...)

RTS requirement 7B: As far as is reasonably possible, games and events must be implemented fairly and in accordance with the rules and prevailing payouts, where applicable, as they are described to the customer.

More interestingly is section 7C, which talks about misleading game design...

RTS requirement 7C: Game designs or features that may reasonably be expected to mislead the customer about the likelihood of particular results occurring are not permitted, including substituting losing events with near-miss losing events and simulations of real devices that do not simulate the real probabilities of the device.

So...
Is it an easy fix to correct the game rules? Absolutely
Is the game UKGC compliant? Arguably not (as it stands)
Is the game using misleading game design? One for UKGC
Will the UKGC do anything about it? Who knows!

 

[Siohmy]

Well that rule 7C is open to all sorts of interpretations isn’t it!

 

[goatwack]

I'm always misleading people, within reason of course

 

[dunover]

I'm always misleading people, within reason of course

Goaty - I'm outta here now it's beyond ridiculous because the regulations are probably known best to developers and they have experience of what is permitted under UKGC rules, and if they were breaking them badly the games wouldn't get signed off.
You haven't got Judge Rinder's number have you?

 

[goatwack]

Goaty - I'm outta here now it's beyond ridiculous because the regulations are probably known best to developers and they have experience of what is permitted under UKGC rules, and if they were breaking them badly the games wouldn't get signed off.
You haven't got Judge Rinder's number have you?

I was going to suggest Judge Judy but I'm not sure if that's hip enough anymore

 

[trancemonkey]

Goaty - I'm outta here now it's beyond ridiculous because the regulations are probably known best to developers and they have experience of what is permitted under UKGC rules, and if they were breaking them badly the games wouldn't get signed off.
You haven't got Judge Rinder's number have you?

And eCogra, GLI, NMI, BMM etc all test against the regulations ...

I would argue that Push Gaming fail on a few of those regulations because of the help screens. And as I've said earlier the addition of the "not all outcomes are possible" line would be a coverall that would be acceptable to me.

 

[EkJR]

Real miss lose events. Yeah, that only happens once every 10 spins!

 

[theapple]

Just give it up, let 'em all call the UKGC, Trading Standards, ASA, FSA, RSPCA, FBI, MI6, EMI or whomever else and wish 'em all good luck with their barrack room law. All this guff for essentially changing a line of rules in a slot game. Let me know when the trials and hangings start.

you people are unreal.

I get it, for you its perfectly fine to create a slot with 900x900 reels, with maximum possible win of 100x and not mention it anywhere, ever. Because its online casinos world and most people are like you things like this were allowed for so long. Why on earth would people be agains consumer-pro changes?

its not about changing a line of rules, despite your quirky comments this is much more than that.

And no it wont stop gambling if it becomes more regulated. If you play a slot thats designed to look like it could possibly pay out 12.000.000x, but you know it cant pay more than 1,500x ts still going to be gambling but you just wont be chasing those impossible wins, thats all.

it would be a horrible change, im well aware of it but hey its what it is.

 

[jasonuk]

Goaty - I'm outta here now it's beyond ridiculous because the regulations are probably known best to developers and they have experience of what is permitted under UKGC rules, and if they were breaking them badly the games wouldn't get signed off.

That is uncalled for. I linked the regulations to try and cut through some of the hyperbole and add some clarity to the discussion - to suggest that is "beyond ridiculous" is frankly insulting.

And eCogra, GLI, NMI, BMM etc all test against the regulations ...

A test outfit will only be as strong as their plans, procedures and staff. Software by its nature cannot be perfect, so for any of us to assume testers will catch everything would be naive - it will always be a "level of confidence" exercise. As a development manager once told me, "testers are by definition waste - they only exist because we cannot develop perfect software!"

I would argue that Push Gaming fail on a few of those regulations because of the help screens. And as I've said earlier the addition of the "not all outcomes are possible" line would be a coverall that would be acceptable to me.

I appreciate your input on that (and the thread in general). It was interesting to read the RTS and see that it clearly states game rules take priority. I'm deliberately leaving the game design as an aside because that is a much bigger can of worms (that UKGC may or may not want to wade into).

I was going to suggest Judge Judy but I'm not sure if that's hip enough anymore

Perhaps Jerry Springer? He's available now after he's wrapped up his talk show of 27 years...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Apologies for the slow reply I don't have a lot of spare time at the moment and I see this thread has continued to develop since yesterday, I'll deal with what I can though. (I'll also not repeat what others have been saying either, as I see other members here at CM are making some excellent points.)

You were trying this angle in the Pragmatic thread as well. Online slots will then cease to be gambling games because all the mystery and excitement will be stripped away, and the element of risk and the fact that the player stands to lose in the long-run will be laid bare with such tedious verbosity that most people won't bother any more. Once you've accomplished that mission, what will be next? Blackjack? How about a disclaimer printed on every table that says 'If there are no aces left in the shoe, you cannot get dealt a Blackjack'?

Do you have shares in 3Dice?

Yes I did ask a question in the Pragmatic thread, which was started by the rep and called 'Pragmatic Play - Open Thread', and contains the invitation:

This thread is open for any questions, feedback or suggestions regarding Pragmatic Play and our product and how we can improve to deliver even better product!

I politely asked a question, (what are the odds of hitting the heavily advertised 48,000x stake pay on Da Vinci's Treasure), and was given the answer 'I don't know', which I'm sure is factually accurate as I don't imagine Daniel knew it off the top of his head. I'm also sure Pragmatic's developer team would have been able to tell him but then again that's a number they're probably not keen to reveal.

As for the second part, that game already exists in many variants, it's called Video Poker and you may have noticed it's been quite popular over the years, despite every single facet of the mathematics behind it, the odds of hitting any win, the exact variance and every other last detail - being 100% in the public domain. Hitting a Royal Flush is unlikely, and peopole can see how exactly how unlikely it is, but they still chase it. Knowing the odds of a gamble doesn't stop it being (a) A gamble and (b) Appealing to gamblers.

As for the 3Dice dig, my channel is not monetised or affiliated in any way. I have no personal interest, financial or otherwise, in promoting 3Dice or their games.

However, I do play there a lot (I've done over 100,000 real money game rounds at 3Dice in the last three months alone), and I understand how their slots work, which is why I routinely use them for comparison pieces such as the Jammin' Jars video.

What I am saying is perfectly legal is the way they have created the game. What is definitely a gray area and where there is room for improvement is what they have put in the help screens as you could argue it misrepresents the truth.

There's no 'argument' about it, the rules are absolutely incorrect, misleading and deceitful - and it's increasingly looking like they are in breach of UKGC regulations as well.

 

[dunover]

That is uncalled for. I linked the regulations to try and cut through some of the hyperbole and add some clarity to the discussion - to suggest that is "beyond ridiculous" is frankly insulting.

I think you got the wrong end of the stick there - I was referring to the whole discussion but my foul, I should have made that clearer. I should have stopped the sentence before mentioning regs. apologies for that.

As for the regulations, I will clarify that I presume the developers are quite au fait with them and I would like to believe people audit and clear the new slots with those rules in mind. I trust the systems in place, until it's proven otherwise - and when I say that I mean a serious 'randomness' or other issue which directly affects players' money rather than some poorly worded rules.

For the record, I'm done with this now as I can't see any good coming from it. But thanks to everybody who chipped it and made it entertaining!

 

[SpinUk]

Goaty - I'm outta here now it's beyond ridiculous because the regulations are probably known best to developers and they have experience of what is permitted under UKGC rules, and if they were breaking them badly the games wouldn't get signed off.
You haven't got Judge Rinder's number have you?

This is all outrageous isnt it Dunover - wouldn’t life be much more simple if you just could just collect those affiliate payments and those pesky players would just stfu about about such ridiculous concepts of fairness and accountability.

Who do they think they are?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And eCogra, GLI, NMI, BMM etc all test against the regulations ...

I would argue that Push Gaming fail on a few of those regulations because of the help screens. And as I've said earlier the addition of the "not all outcomes are possible" line would be a coverall that would be acceptable to me.

This is an interesting point, because in spite of all the regulations and developers who should be intimately acquainted with them, it still looks like a game has managed to find its way into the wild that isn't compliant.

And yet, according to some folks, we shouldn't even dare to be curious or ask questions in the first place because it's all within the law and the regulations (maybe....), so the best thing we can do as players is keep quiet and carry on depositing and spinning those reels.

There are two issues here for me:

1) The game's rules are flat out wrong as currently worded.

2) The game's design is deceptive and misleading.

I'm mindful that we're at the risk of starting to run around in circles here, but it appears that we have at least reached a consensus on Point 1, whereas Point 2 is more of a subjective opinion, although you could still make the case for it not being compliant with the regulations.

 

[Jono777]

Hopefully Bryan will return soon enough, pitchfork in hand

 

[goatwack]

Whew, 26 pages eh. Well I've weighed up both sides of the argument aaaannndd it's a draw. A draw everyone.

 

[judgenico]

im sorry if this has been said before but ive skimmed through most of the comments are we saying in essence there are 1.3 million predetermined and scripted wins programmed into this game if so im happy that the game has been designed this way as it seems the most logical way to do so on a game of this type

 

[Playford7]

I was going to suggest Judge Judy but I'm not sure if that's hip enough anymore

Definitely. That’s ‘retro’ cool.

 

[goatwack]

Just had an email from LeoVegas about their new releases



I'm liking the look of the middle one

 

[TheresNoDInBonanza]

Lol @dunover rage quitting the thread.

I've got a few questions regarding that 7c rule but not applicable to this thread so I'll take it to @trancemonkey 's other thread.

 

[lockinlove]

I was going to vote the trump thread as worst thread of the year.

I have now changed my mind

 

[deaconk78]

is someone taking these concerns to the relevant place or are we just going round and round in circles ?

push gaming took a backward step and left @dunover to fight their battle along with @trancemonkey it appears . ( i don't mean as a tactical plan between the 3 but rather push gaming disappeared )

IF i read the legal argument again i may well hire Vincent LaGuardia ("Vinny" Gambin)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I played Jammin' Jars with a real £200 deposit, so you don't have to. (I also had 3Dice running at the same time, for a total investment of £400 of real cash deposits.)

This ended up turning into a bit of a mega-session over two nights.

Quite a long watch but if you've got the patience for it there some quite nice wins in there.

Featured games.

Jammin 'Jars
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Immortal Romance (Big Spins!)
Thunderstruck
Bonanza

 

[09237653]

Daily reminder of what a rancid turd this game is, in all this play I have NEVER seen a 3rd jar drop in on a cascade. Think ill stick to Reactoonz.

 

[dionysus]

Daily reminder of what a rancid turd this game is, in all this play I have NEVER seen a 3rd jar drop in on a cascade. Think ill stick to Reactoonz.

View attachment 96399

i had a 3 jar drop which triggered the bonus - it could have been a carrot for all it helped

 

[Balthazar]

I guess I just pulled a good scratch ticket. My first time ever playing this slot, about 50 spins in (Videoslots).

Thanks for all the controversy and @ChopleyIOM 's video else I'd never have tried it.

Incredible 1835x.