Is it true that affiliates make 25%-50% off MY LOSSES?!!

[Simmo!]

Back to mr alphabet's original question: Do affiliates make 25% - 50% off player losses?

25% is the "norm". A few go to 30% or 35% but only based on the player revenue being big. Some are only 15% or 20%. Depends. Also bear in mind that if you get say 2 players at one casino, one wins, one loses, they can go some way to canceling each other out. Also some "carry over" negatives...for example one casino I had a player win $7k back last year and I'm still trying to get back into the positive. Overall obviously players lose in the long run else the casinos wouldn't be in business I guess

 

[BingoT]

I do this as a hobby

I look at it this way.If someone goes to the site and joins with no links from an affiliate the gaming site your at Wins.
Like myself I do this as a hobby thing and whatever I get goes to a good cause and I don't make much but what I do goes towards some nice stuff for Handicap Children or a Family that needs a helping hand.
And I have some people saying bad things how can I help someone if your making them gamble if I help people.
I tell anyone if you know someone that needs some help pleases let me know about them.
Some people think I'm full of ------ but I tell all I will be happy to show you around. I do my best in what I do and like always I thank all the Webmasters that let me post.
At this time I'm thinking on donating a bench for a Children's Hospital with a plague that reads From all the Webmasters across the world that promotes online gaming and the players. I will take a picture of it when it's done for me to share with all of you.
Thanks Byran for having me here.
God Bless
Happy 4th of July to all
Tom
Oh I forgot to say Please I don't want anyone to feel sorry or they have to join anything that they will lose money at.Go to your local children's hospital and bring them something. or give to MDA
Thanks

 

[maxfalcon]

25% is the "norm". A few go to 30% or 35% but only based on the player revenue being big. Some are only 15% or 20%. Depends. Also bear in mind that if you get say 2 players at one casino, one wins, one loses, they can go some way to canceling each other out. Also some "carry over" negatives...for example one casino I had a player win $7k back last year and I'm still trying to get back into the positive. Overall obviously players lose in the long run else the casinos wouldn't be in business I guess

There are also some affiliate programs that deduct some of their fees on the affiliate commissions, like bonuses, jackpot contributions, charge-backs...

I would also add that even with the 25% announced, between all the technical hassles with tracking, plus competition and other various considerations, an average affiliate get in fact 10%-20% in commissions, instead of the 25%-30% really generated by his/her website (my opinion).

 

[bb1webs]

Hi all,

there are some really ignorant posts here and I'll be pleased to tell you why.

(I apologize if someone has already touched on some of these but frankly I couldn't wait to get to respond once I'd read about the first 3 or 4 posts).

so rather than shoot down a bunch of uninformed posts I'm going to list a few facts. And they are facts.

1. The biggest reason you get paid and get fair-odds games are because of affiliates. - wake up those that don't realize this. as one person, or even as a group of people posting on a forum you are not going to hold the kind of leverage that is held by a successful affiliate. Furthermore on that particular aspect is that if you had to go strictly by what posters said about a casino ... well I give you CM's board as example. Nearly every casino you could imagine has been subject in the complaints department. ( I say this at risk of being wrong as I've never actually surfed the whole thing, but I feel confident saying that just from the threads I've seen). Now whether or not the casino actually deserved to be there is in some cases impossible to know, but in many cases it is possible to know if you have a true understanding of the industry and have an informed history. I can give examples of this from recent situations if necessary (Bell Rock's current issue about freezing certain player's accounts - most "in the know" ... know that its still a safe place to play that will pay you ... but to read that thread ... )

what's important to know is which affiliate site will go to bat for you and which won't.
not all are 3rd-party owned. There are many which are created by the very casinos they list although they give appearance that is not the case.

2. Not all affiliates get paid by a % of losses. There are in some cases 4 ways of getting paid.
a. upfront as CM does. (this option is often only for the truly big guys)
b. paid per player. (they receive a set price for each player signed - a one time payment : though not an option I would advise or seek out)
c. % of losses. this in most cases is 25%, sometimes (at best) 35%. Any claim to more than that is always ... basically bs. They tell you that and then hit you with all these unmentioned amin costs, bonuses are often deducted 100% from our side, a real popular ploy with RTG casinos. An honest 50%? not a chance.
d. % of wager. fairly new model which pays according to how much you gamble. not how much you lose. I view it with a lot of promise because like Dom, CM, and any other half-intelligent affiliate in this for the long run .... we know that you MUST have winners! Trust me. ... and I say this to the casinos all the time because it amazes me how petty they can get ... and forgive my immodesty but I have on many occasions paid players out of my pocket at times when I felt the casino didn't go the extra mile or in fact I've even sent money to players when they were having to wait too long for a casino to pay them.

all of the latter is made possible because of the money I make.

also you should be aware that absolutely not one penny extra ever! has it cost a player because they signed up thru an affiliate's link.

And for those of you that thought you were so smart to NEVER sign up thru an affiliate.. well my friends when you have trouble its you and the casino. Had you been smart enough to have chosen thru a reputable affilate casino portal you would have recourse.

Further than that; and I'm sorry again for being immodest but had you signed up thru my sites .. you'd have enjoyed a 3rd-party cash-backed guarantee that you'd get paid when you cashed in and against the casino going bankrupt while holding your money.

... I apologize for sounding like a commercial Brian but it really gets my blood boiling to read some of the so-uninformed posts that i have read.

and btw I'm not taking anything away from Brian. my guarantee is because I know i will in the end get satisfaction for my player, just as Brian does for anybody who's ever had a legit situation.

.. what a bunch of ungrateful, ... unthoughtful ... people. All the times you've read all the threads where this man has went the extra mile to get a player treated right and then for me to read where someone says he NEVER signed up thru an aff links.

If you can't see that the biggest reason you're getting paid is because of people like Brian then you are beyond reaching because you're obviously in serious need of a reality check.

... I have more but need a break.

..........

here's a little history on why affiliates came to be on the net.

I not positive but I imagine it started with the porn industry as they have usually led the way in innovation on the net.

there could have been a gazillion membership porn sites instead of the free ones that are out there now. everybody with a couple of dirty pictures (remember this is when the net first started) would be charging to see them and that meant they'd also be competing for advertising space.

so you can see with so many competing that it meant certain death for the majority. Only those with the deepest pockets would prosper because they could afford to advertise and thus would outlast their competition. (and the deepest pockets .. especially in the casino industry would have been the ones cheating players since they'd never have to pay anything out)

So somebody said hey, instead of you paying all that money to create the site, keep it updated and all the other costs of having a site .... what if I was to say that I'd split the profit with you that is made off my site for all the people you send that sign up. That way you can spend your money towards advertising instead of towards keeping the site up. We both stand to win because yes, you have the better deal ... if it were only the two of us ... but I will have this deal with literally 100s, maybe 1000s. So I'll easily make my money because of the great quantity of members I will have gained.


its a win-win situation where as far as the consumer goes. ... they are not effected one bit. The advantage to the consumer is they now have one more person or place to register a complaint if the service or product is not up to par.


just like there are a ton of scam casinos out there, or casinos that don't really care about how you get treated, so are there affiliate sites. And just as you'd have to be careful and look around a little bit before you found each respective ... quality .... casino (which in between you'd kiss a lot of toads before you found those princes) ... you must also do when choosing a casino portal that you know will do more than just provide links. (although that's still smarter than using a search engine because usually if a casino is listed on a portal site there is a better chance it will pay than if found simply off a search engine).

 

[BingoT]

Well said Well done bb1webs great post

Well said Well done bb1webs great post
This sums it up I say.

 

[The Dude]

.. what a bunch of ungrateful, ... unthoughtful ... people.

But I think it was only one guy who was bitching about this.

All the times you've read all the threads where this man has went the extra mile to get a player treated right and then for me to read where someone says he NEVER signed up thru an aff links.

If you're referring to Vesuvio, he did buy me a DVD and Frank Zappa CD. Thanks, man!

 

[dominique]

By the way, your profile says you're in Canada, but as far as I can tell - you're in Hong Kong. What's up with that?

Spoofed IP? Hmmmm....

25% is the "norm". A few go to 30% or 35% but only based on the player revenue being big. Some are only 15% or 20%. Depends. Also bear in mind that if you get say 2 players at one casino, one wins, one loses, they can go some way to canceling each other out. Also some "carry over" negatives...for example one casino I had a player win $7k back last year and I'm still trying to get back into the positive. Overall obviously players lose in the long run else the casinos wouldn't be in business I guess

Also keep in mind, it's NOT 25% of losses that the affiliate shares. It's 25% of everything.

And while a casino can easily absorb the winnings of their players, affiliates cannot. If your profit for the month is $100, and you have a $10.000 winner, you are liable for $2,500 of the winnings, 25% of the bonuses given, 25% of progressive fees and whatever else the casinos can come up with to charge you.

Now many casinos do carry over the losses, so in this case you will likely never see another penny here. Of the ones that do carry over losses, if you are a well producing affiliate ( top 5% ) they MAY wipe out part of that loss. Just because they want you to keep working to try to send them players.

Many will not carry this loss into the next month but you are dead for this month.

How many of you can afford to skip a month of income?

As most affiliates will tell you, it can take a year of full time work or longer to create a site that is good enough for the search engines to list it and send you some people looking for info.

How many of you would spend all your free time for a year for free to create a site that has lots of info for players?

Right, most affiliates drop out before they ever start seeing a penny.

also think online casinos should be spending less on advertising (including affiliates) which is targeting getting new players in the door, and spending more on keeping players.

Yes!!!!!!!!!! I surely agree, and so do most affiliates I bet. Players should be rewarded for loyalty, I would gladly pay loyalty rewards out of pocket! I pay 25% of the bonuses anyway, heck, I'd pay more than that if it were spent on rewarding existing players.

Affiliates have created all the info you have come to rely on. Bryan, the wizard, all the how to articles you can google, all these really important tools have all been created by affiliates, in the hopes that you will thank them by clicking on their link, which doesn't cost a penny.

 

[Vesuvio]

Hi all,

there are some really ignorant posts here and I'll be pleased to tell you why.

I can only try and return the compliment

1. The biggest reason you get paid and get fair-odds games are because of affiliates. - wake up those that don't realize this. as one person, or even as a group of people posting on a forum you are not going to hold the kind of leverage that is held by a successful affiliate.

Maybe in the absolute Wild West days of internet casinos - but the reason there's a good chance of fair-games and getting paid nowadays is because of the main "watchdog" forums like Casinomeister and WOL, and to extent organisations like eCOGRA.

Although both sites with forums obviously do have an affiliate element I don't think it's right to say that they have influence primarily as affiliates - they have influence as highly visible authorities on the casino industry. What's written in the forums, and the choices Bryan makes about casinos to support, matter. Obviously it'd be better if there were real regulation, but for now...

Furthermore on that particular aspect is that if you had to go strictly by what posters said about a casino ... well I give you CM's board as example. Nearly every casino you could imagine has been subject in the complaints department....
Now whether or not the casino actually deserved to be there is in some cases impossible to know, but in many cases it is possible to know if you have a true understanding of the industry and have an informed history. I can give examples of this from recent situations if necessary (Bell Rock's current issue about freezing certain player's accounts - most "in the know" ... know that its still a safe place to play that will pay you ... but to read that thread ... )

I think reading that thread and others on Belle Rock gives you a very good idea about the group. They'll generally pay you, and the average "recreational" player shouldn't have too many problems, but they have terrible customer support. The handling of the situation (lies, absurd requests and so on) is just the latest in a long line of complaints. Unless you've run out of other MG casinos I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

And for those of you that thought you were so smart to NEVER sign up thru an affiliate.. well my friends when you have trouble its you and the casino. Had you been smart enough to have chosen thru a reputable affilate casino portal you would have recourse.

No, you have the same ultimate recourse - eCOGRA, Montana overseas & the like - and then Casinomeister. OK, some affiliates might give you another avenue, but I'll take my chances. I've played at an awful lot of casinos and never failed to be paid yet - though Bellerock pushed it close.

Further than that; and I'm sorry again for being immodest but had you signed up thru my sites .. you'd have enjoyed a 3rd-party cash-backed guarantee that you'd get paid when you cashed in and against the casino going bankrupt while holding your money.

I'm glad this gimmick works to make you some money - but really, how many casinos do you remember going bust? I take it you only offer links to fairly reputable casinos, so the chances of players needing your insurance are verging on zero - especially as I'm assuming you won't pay if there's any sort of fraud, or serious suspicion of fraud.

.. what a bunch of ungrateful, ... unthoughtful ... people. All the times you've read all the threads where this man has went the extra mile to get a player treated right and then for me to read where someone says he NEVER signed up thru an aff links.

Bear in mind I'm a bonus hunter so I'll usually lose money for any affiliate who gets a percentage of my losses - I'm actually doing you a favour I'm simply more comfortable dealing directly with casinos, in the same way as I prefer to avoid middlemen when making other purchases (where possible). Oh, yeah, and as I said, I don't have a positive enough opinion of the on-line casino industry to encourage more people to make a living from it. For all the information or services you can possibly provide a huge banner saying "DON'T GAMBLE" would be of more benefit to society

Besides, I'd say people taking the time to post regularly on Casinomeister is also helping out Bryan by keeping this site sharp and relevant.

its a win-win situation where as far as the consumer goes. ... they are not effected one bit. The advantage to the consumer is they now have one more person or place to register a complaint if the service or product is not up to par.

The mind slightly boggles when thinking how this works in relation to the porn industry

I don't want to pursue it, but you could make a counter argument that affiliates cost the casinos money that they could use to offer players better bonuses. So if everyone got their info on casinos and then signed up directly from the websites...

 

[bb1webs]

V,

if you aren't smart enough to always take the best chance you have ... then I can't find arguement to convince you otherwise.

btw; how do you think the "wild west days" came to see their end?

casinos that were prevalent in ripping people off are gone now because of affiliate sites warning players.

gimmick? if that's the best you can do to find fault with my cash guarantee then .... *but how grand of you to belittle someone who is making an obvious attempt to give something back



lastly, ... I can't say for certain but I'd bet large that Brian started out as an affiliate and wasn't able to sell ad spots upfront until later on.

ps.

I have had many offers of same pay upfront offers as what Brian recieves though I'm sure on a much lesser amount: (I decline because I have a small amount of surfers that a casino would view as thinking they were ripped-off until such time (if they stayed with it) that it proved otherwise. Its just easier for me to take the risk than to ask the casinos and prove myself that way. and I also believe Dom mentioned she sells that way. Its not unheard of by any means.

 

[bb1webs]

before I forget; I apologize for thinking that more than one person had made posts agreeable with the first.

 

[soflat]

Further than that; and I'm sorry again for being immodest but had you signed up thru my sites .. you'd have enjoyed a 3rd-party cash-backed guarantee that you'd get paid when you cashed in and against the casino going bankrupt while holding your money.

So if I deposit $50 and win $2000, your 'guarantee' only covers me for $50 (my deposit)? I'll pass. Vesuvio is right, that is just a gimmick.

The rest of your post is just you talking down to us so, I won't respond further.

 

[Vesuvio]

if you aren't smart enough to always take the best chance you have ... then I can't find arguement to convince you otherwise.

If I was motivated purely by money I'd sign up through an affiliate that automatically gives me some of the money they get back. It's a bit absurd of you to suggest I'm a fool if I don't sign up through your site. Remember Bryan offers his services to anyone who's a member of this site. I'll stick with him if you don't mind (I might have clicked on a few more links if I'd known he gets a fee up front).

btw; how do you think the "wild west days" came to see their end?

casinos that were prevalent in ripping people off are gone now because of affiliate sites warning players.

I don't know enough of the history of the on-line casino industry, but I suspect that's a somewhat jaundiced view of what happened.

gimmick? if that's the best you can do to find fault with my cash guarantee then .... *but how grand of you to belittle someone who is making an obvious attempt to give something back

Oh come on! I argued my case. Are you seriously for one second suggesting you're trying "to give something back"? It's a marketing strategy. Congratulations if it works, but I said exactly the same about the same guarantee offered by the Online Players Union (if that's what it's called), so don't feel unduly picked upon.

 

[bb1webs]

I don't want to pursue it, but you could make a counter argument that affiliates cost the casinos money that they could use to offer players better bonuses. So if everyone got their info on casinos and then signed up directly from the websites...

you still don't get it.

perhaps the porn industry was a bad example though I think likely true to its mark.

imagine you and 3 friends all selling lemonade on the same street corner.

all 3 have to spend the costs of making the product and providing something to sell it out of:

and it takes each person the full amount of their money to just accomplish that:

one day one person says he will pay all the costs of providing the lemonade and place to sell out of: ... and will split the profit 50/50 with anybody who brings in a customer via their own means.

now the other three have money to advertise on other streets to bring in customers that otherwise would never have been able to be reached.

the person that is picking up the costs of providing the store and product makes up the difference because he's getting 50% off 3 people that he'd otherwise never have seen and on top of all that; you've eliminated all your competition.. and I think the other side's advantage is self-explanatory.

 

[bb1webs]

V I can provide people who will go to bat for me in a second because they remember that I did for them.

that includes to one player that I sent $300 because his $800 cash-in took two weeks to get there. if you'd like to read about the whole thing visit this link Link Removed

enough said.

 

[Vesuvio]

the person that is picking up the costs of providing the store and product makes up the difference because he's getting 50% off 3 people that he'd otherwise never have seen

I was never seriously questioning the fact the affiliate system works, though I suspect you reach a saturation point when it can be counter-productive.

Anyway, going back to the charming lemonade example. What if the people who get told about the stall wander around the block and come back and the seller gets all the money without paying commision? That was my hypothetical situation. It may be in the interests of casinos and affiliates to cooperate, but there are also pretty decent incentives for back-stabbing

 

[soflat]

Anyway, going back to the charming lemonade example. What if the people who get told about the stall wander around the block and come back and the seller gets all the money without paying commision?

I don't think they get the guarantee then.

They are at the mercy of the lemonade stand owner who the affiliate told them about.

 

[bb1webs]

V, I never said I had a better deal than Brian.

in fact: we offer the same thing. I make a guarantee because I don't have the forum and am not as well-known as Brian so to compensate: I make that offer.

I have also have in my terms on that: that because ultimately what you want is the casino to pay you the full amount you've won;.... that if/when I am able to achieve that: I'd like back the money I sent you. (this is however totally up to the player and not binding in any way. I do it that way so they don't think I'm trying to run some kind of scam ... or gimmick. ... sigh.

this is a financial incentive at all times for me ... to get the player treated in a just and honorable manor.

exactly what Brian does.

I'm in no way trying to compete with him because it would be like rudolph competing with Santa to .... be Santa.

 

[bb1webs]

It may be in the interests of casinos and affiliates to cooperate, but there are also pretty decent incentives for back-stabbing

true. but the only person at risk of getting stabbed is the affiliate. The casino has no extra cost because if not for the affiliate; the player wouldn't have been there in the first place.

now I know you're going to say they'd find it eventually. That is correct. but also keep in mind if there aren't going to be affiliates then there are going to be a heck of a lot more lemonade stands to wade thru.


ps.

I'm quitting now. If you can't find reason in my arguement then i say good luck to you and your (on your own) endeavors with the casinos you find ... however it is you find them.

 

[elscrabinda]

Arguing with affiliates never gets you anywhere so I'll stay clear of this thread.

Just one quick comment though. BingoT if you ever go through with this I may be hospitalised myself by the violent nausea that such a picture would provoke. Please don't. Donate a bench by all means but please don't try and use it to promote casinos.

At this time I'm thinking on donating a bench for a Children's Hospital with a plaque that reads From all the Webmasters across the world that promotes online gaming and the players. I will take a picture of it when it's done for me to share with all of you.

 

[Vesuvio]

I'm quitting now. If you can't find reason in my arguement then i say good luck to you and your (on your own) endeavors with the casinos you find ... however it is you find them.

Fair enough - I'm sure I'll manage somehow.

p.s. argument, not arguement! I let it go the first few times

 

[lots0]

Sour Grapes

Sour Grapes???

After all, Affiliates do walk away with money in their pockets from the Casinos far more often than players do...

 

[Vesuvio]

Sour Grapes???

After all, Affiliates do walk away with money in their pockets from the Casinos far more often than players do...

Yeah, but remember sharp players no doubt make more than the majority of affiliates. Unless the majority of affiliates are also sharp players, which wouldn't entirely suprise me

 

[dominique]

Yeah, but remember sharp players no doubt make more than the majority of affiliates. Unless the majority of affiliates are also sharp players, which wouldn't entirely suprise me

I would estimate that situation like this:

Most of the time, neither players nor affiliates make a living, and the vast majority of both loses time and money. Hopefully players get some entertainment value and affiliates learn something.

I would imagine that players have a better chance at making good money than affiliates do.

Overall, a small percentage of players and a small percentage of affiliates walk home with most of the money.

 

[phynqster]

It's sad that this thread has becoe a finger pointing session. I think that there need to be better definitions on what an affiliate is; There are ones who build sites that look like casinos but roll into one casino(white label), you have search engine sites, that when a person does a google search on a casino, than click on the casino, they are really going through an affiliate. Than there are those affiliates, who actually almost become casino hosts, and introduce players to the casino and the games. As someone posted much earlier in this thread there are good, and bad in everything.

 

[spearmaster]

I don't want to pursue it, but you could make a counter argument that affiliates cost the casinos money that they could use to offer players better bonuses. So if everyone got their info on casinos and then signed up directly from the websites...

Not that I was looking for something to start a debate about... LOL... but:

1. CM is NOT an affiliate, he is a publisher for the most part - I believe very few of his contracts are actually as an affiliate.

2. Affiliates are used by casinos because it means they don't have to pay up front. If they did NOT use affiliate, a great proportion of the "savings" would actually go towards a much higher marketing spend because affiliates can generate players much faster than typical marketing alone can.

3. Affiliates are often able to offer better bonuses than the casino themselves will offer. This would obviously give the player an advantage.

4. As Dom pointed out elsewhere, many of the tools, news, and even software improvements are driven by affiliates as well as publishers. I know this for a fact because I used to be one of those people.

5. Players already get huge sign-up bonuses - there is absolutely no reason why a casino would decide to give out even more money through the sign-up bonus. As for loyalty - this I fully agree - the casinos OUGHT to do better than a piddly 0.1%, regardless of whether they depend on affiliates or not.

6. As BB pointed out, some affiliates have a lot of sway over casinos because they are huge revenue generators, and/or because they are actively participating in the industry in other ways. This does apply to publishers too but it started with affiliates going to conferences and dragging certain publishers along with them (ahem!).

7. Many affiliates - almost surely a great majority - of affiliates are also players. They are well in tune with what the players want and are able to present this message to the casino operators a lot more effectively.

8. Many affiliates lose a large part - or all - of their revenue back to the casinos - which effectively makes the casino marketing spend nil. On the other hand, operators could buy banner ads all over the place (well, in the past anyhow) and get no players in return.

9. Many of the casinos in existence today would not be around if not for affiliates, because they simply could not or would not have enough money to do a reasonable amount of marketing. Not going to mention any names but there are a few prominent ones who depend largely or entirely on their affiliates.

So - to the nitty-gritty - should affiliates get 25% of revenues?

In some cases, yes. In many cases, no - but most of these "no" cases don't generate much revenue in the first place. As for the "yes" cases - for the most part they are worth every bit - and more.

And ultimately it doesn't cost the player anything. If anything, affiliates can often mean more value for the player - but keep in mind that not ALL affiliates take the high road and thus you should always use caution or "buyer beware" when visiting affiliate sites.

 

[rowmare]

By the way, your profile says you're in Canada, but as far as I can tell - you're in Hong Kong. What's up with that?

I sure hope he's not Canadian, eh!

Good post, Spearmaster You made a lot of valid points.

As far as making online casinos safer, I give Casinomeister and his site points for pioneering responsible advertising and paving the way for other affiliates to follow suit.

 

[soflat]

As for loyalty - this I fully agree - the casinos OUGHT to do better than a piddly 0.1%, regardless of whether they depend on affiliates or not.

Why shouldn't the affiliates do better? They get 25-30% of player lifetime losses. Why don't they give us 1% or 3% back? Help the poor players make up for the house edge.

Some of these affiliates actually have the gall to discourage players from taking bonuses.

They complain that sometimes a player actually wins and erases their commission for one month. Boo hoo. Most players always lose.

 

[spearmaster]

Why shouldn't the affiliates do better? They get 25-30% of player lifetime losses. Why don't they give us 1% or 3% back? Help the poor players make up for the house edge.

Tell me any casino in the world that's going to give you 1-3% of your play back - let alone an affiliate.

Loyalty is the casino's job because they will not allow the affiliates to handle direct communications with the players - hence affiliates are not hosts. It is quite rare that affiliates actually know who their players are, so even if your point was reasonable it is generally not possible.

You want better loyalty rewards? I agree with you. But demand it from the casinos - it's always been their job to keep you playing.

 

[soflat]

Tell me any casino in the world that's going to give you 1-3% of your play back - let alone an affiliate...You want better loyalty rewards? I agree with you. But demand it from the casinos - it's always been their job to keep you playing.

I was asking a serious question. If anyone knows the answer please chime in.

 

[The Dude]

... I can't say for certain but I'd bet large that Brian started out as an affiliate and wasn't able to sell ad spots upfront until later on....

Bryan A big-ass Y as in YAHHHHH!

Sorry BB - for those whoknow me know I freak out on the mispelling of my name. It's just one of those things.

But seriously, when Casinomeister first started out, there were very few affiliate programs. The site was meant to be a information site and still is. Marketing was not a real issue for me. I wanted to provide information and have fun while doing it. Some of the first casinos on the site paid nothing or 4-10% as an affiliate. The Sands and Intercasino started as affiliate (still are) but most of the rest that came on board were media buys.

As for the wild west being over - it ain't. I'm knee deep in grenade pins half of the time, and I can barely keep up with the PABs from players suckered in by screw-me operations located somewhere in Central America. Affiliates are a double edged sword. For every sensible affiliate who is trying to make a positive mark in the industry, there are x amount who couldn't give a flying rat's ass about any player, or for the image of this industry.

On top of that there is player fraud and shitloads of players who couldn't care what you or I think. Just look at the amount of players who take chances with crap casinos. Either they are stupid or just plain greedy.

Some of these affiliates actually have the gall to discourage players from taking bonuses.

Well I think bonuses suck. Personally, I rarely take them and I just do fine without them. Taking bonuses from no-name back-street alley clipshot joint casinos is just asking for trouble.

After all, Affiliates do walk away with money in their pockets from the Casinos far more often than players do..

Overall, I think this is a myth. I haven't seen much to substantiate it. There are a lot of complaining affiliates out there

 

[dominique]

CM is NOT an affiliate, he is a publisher for the most part - I believe very few of his contracts are actually as an affiliate.

Well, it all gets murky here.

I think most of the larger "affiliates" are actually a mix. I just looked at things and I estimate that maybe 25%, if that, of what I make comes actually from player's losses.

The rest is from paid ads, % of wager (the way Vegas does it), placement fees and % of deposit. None of these care about winning or losing.

The argument that the money you should get as bonus goes to affiliates or publishers or anyone who gets paid in any way for providing a platform for casinos to be seen by surfers is null and void.

Casinos have a budget for advertising. They spend it and they will pay for what is available. They used to be able to pay for clicks from search engines and spend HUGE amounts of money on that. They still do buy a goodly amount of search engine advertising.

Do the search engines pay for your bonuses? No. Affiliates do. Do the search engines pay for progressives? No. Affiliates do. Do the search engines pay 25% of your winnings? No. Affiliates do.

It's all very simple. If you use a service, you should use the link because it is free to you but pays for the service. If only all your bills could be paid like this.

And this thread is getting weird and illogical.

Earlier BB said he would pay for certain things for his players. He was shouted down and attacked for that being a gimmick. Now someone is upset because the affiliate is not giving them money.

Hello???????????????

 

[Vesuvio]

Earlier BB said he would pay for certain things for his players. He was shouted down and attacked for that being a gimmick.

No need to over-dramatise things - it wasn't an attack - just pointing out that it's a marketing ploy (and good luck with it), rather than a significant advantage for the player. Anyone could offer to guarantee deposits only at reputable casinos, when no fraud's committed, as you're basically never going to need to pay out. Even rogue casinos tend to return deposits while holding on to winnings.

 

[Chatmaster]

I would like to respond to this thread with this one very important point. Most webmasters that act as affiliate that are involved in this forum for example plays a very important role in the online gambling industry, a role often not appreciated by players that are new to the online gambling community. Most content found on the internet related to the industry comes from affiliates. Most of the experience shared online comes from affiliates.

Unfortunately there are those affiliates that do take part in greedy practices like spamming and blackhat SEO to catch unsuspected players with their totally useless content and information. There are also those that supply endless supplies of crappy strategies that cause players to loose more than they would win. You also get affiliates that register multiple aliases on forums in order to missguide players and the community even more.

One thing you need to remember is the choice still lies with the player, if you fall for unethical advertising methods and crappy strategies it means you made the decision to do so. There are affiliates in the industry like you would find on this thread e.g. Rowmare, Simmo and Dominique to name but a few that devote ALL their time to offer players the safest and best quality on the web. Players do not have to fall for greedy and unethical casinos because affiliates like them specialise in keeping the industry informed and apply pressure to casinos to act professionally. The same goes for watchdog sites regardless of the way they are rewarded for providing this service. That is the basic priciple of the internet not only the gaming industry.

The top affiliates will also tell you that the more effort they put in providing quality the better the reward for them. The unethical affiliates do not have recency or retention and simply have to keep on spamming to continue making a living, as it is impossible to successfully compete with quality ethical affiliates. Therefore I suggest supporting ethical and hardworking affiliates and watchdogs is the safe way to go for players! It is logical!

 

[soflat]

And this thread is getting weird and illogical.

Earlier BB said he would pay for certain things for his players. He was shouted down and attacked for that being a gimmick. Now someone is upset because the affiliate is not giving them money.

Hello???????????????

OK let's be logical.

What is the value of that guarantee? I'm guessing insurance against a reputable casino going under or otherwise not paying would have a market value of a few cents at most.

There is also a conflict of interests in the offer. Say the player deposits $50 and wins $2000. The guarantee would pay $50. The player loses $1950. The affiliate would profit over $400 (25% commission).

I don't know who was upset about players not getting a cut of the affiliate profits. If you were referring to my post, I was simply asking a question. It doesn't seem weird to me.

 

[spearmaster]

I was asking a serious question. If anyone knows the answer please chime in.

That was a serious answer - but you obviously chose to discount it.

I repeat again - affiliates do not have access to individual player information at any time - the casinos will not give us this information. Only under rare circumstances does any program have stats which can later be tracked to a player who voluntarily provides certain information. So, in a nutshell, it is generally not possible to provide any sort of cashback as far as an affiliate is concerned.

But even then - no land-based casino gives back 1-3% of playthrough under anything but the most unusual circumstances, such as giving back 1% on slots, and double that on double comp point days.

Blackjack earns comps at 0.2% at many, if not most casinos. Video poker typically earns at half the rate of slots.

That is the reality of things. I'm sorry that I don't have a better answer for you, and I don't think you're going to find a better answer - as I said before, "buyer beware" - you still have the choice to click on an affiliate link, or not - don't expect an affiliate to jump through hoops to accommodate you when they simply can't through no fault of their own.

 

[rowmare]

Earlier BB said he would pay for certain things for his players. He was shouted down and attacked for that being a gimmick. Now someone is upset because the affiliate is not giving them money.

Hello???????????????

Dom made some good points, and I quoted just one that got my attention - It's exactly what I thought. BB is one of the good guys. Be nice, kids.

If you want to find some affiliates to pick on, look around for the scraper, b.s. sites whose webmasters wouldn't give a player a pot to piss in, and don't care about the reputations of the casinos they promote.

 

[Chatmaster]

OK let's be logical.

What is the value of that guarantee? I'm guessing insurance against a reputable casino going under or otherwise not paying would have a market value of a few cents at most.

Soflat, I feel compeled to reply to your post, which btw I feel is a very good post. You mention 2 very important points... The first one I might be missunderstanding but, the whole problem with the internet is the fact that there are no guarantees! That makes the role of reputable affiliates so much more important. They need to ensure that they offer their visitors informative and objective information.

There is also a conflict of interests in the offer. Say the player deposits $50 and wins $2000. The guarantee would pay $50. The player loses $1950. The affiliate would profit over $400 (25% commission).

I see your point, that is why there are affiliates that write dodgy content for their websites, they write articles or even books about card counting strategies with blackjack! lol The fact is card counting is old school and cannot be used with multiple decks that are being reshuffled everytime a new game starts, that they seem to be ignoring. They make lots of false claims on how much money they make of casinos and then players all excited clicks on an affiliate link to go on the specific casino to go rip them off! That player has just been setup, the rattler is in it's cage and ready to bite.

Once again I ask are you going to go back to that affiliate's site after you lost a fortune using his strategy?

However then you get affiliates that will pull their casino banners immediately at the slightest hint of the casino being suspect in some dodgy techniques. They will pull these banners despite the possible losses, they will blacklist these casinos despite their threats of lawsuits. These are the affiliates that I am talking about, affiliates that are passionate about the industry and that walk the path of the straight and narrow. The irony is that these are also the most successfull affiliates in our industry.

 

[Chatmaster]

Sour Grapes???

After all, Affiliates do walk away with money in their pockets from the Casinos far more often than players do...

I need to point out that this the greates BS I have read in years! You create this image of how successfull affiliates are, while the reality is that the majority of casino affiliates simply never earn more than $1k a month, infact most of them never make enough to draw their commissions. It is probably the top 1% that do make a living and only a handfull that actually earn enough to make us red of envy.

 

[BingoT]

Thanking all

. Please don't. Donate a bench by all means but please don't try and use it to promote casinos.

To promote casino's?
All it is thanking and that it's from Webmasters on the web
I'm not looking for gain or pity.
Thank You

 

[elscrabinda]

 

[lots0]

Originally Posted by lots0
?Sour Grapes???

After all, Affiliates do walk away with money in their pockets from the Casinos far more often than players do...

I need to point out that this the greates BS I have read in years! You create this image of how successfull affiliates are, while the reality is that the majority of casino affiliates simply never earn more than $1k a month, infact most of them never make enough to draw their commissions.

I dont keep track of what other affiliates earn, so maybe your right, I really dont know. But I have been making a GOOD living at being an affiliate for years now. I walk away at the end of EVERY month with enough money from the casinos to pay my bills and live a good life. I just assumed a lot of other people were doing the same... I know my affiliate competition is.

You want to know some information that is very valuable... if an affiliate can make $1000 a month, that same affiliate can make $10,000 a month... all they have to do is... work 10 times harder... lol
( I am laughing but Im not joking) Im working today!


HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMERICA!

 

[Linus]

I was asking a serious question. If anyone knows the answer please chime in.

Soflat, I'm not an affiliate, so I can't give you any inside information.

You might gain some insight from how this issue worked itself out in the poker world, however. So bear with me, if you're interested, because it's going to be long.

Poker affiliates work on the same basis as casino affiliates, except that instead of taking a percentage of player losses, they take a percent of player rake. It starts out at 25%, up to 30%, and goes up from there.

A winning poker player will easily generate a thousand dollars a month in rake, and often much more than that.

Winning poker players, being, in general, not stupid people, eventually figured out that 25%-30%, or more, of "their" rake was getting paid out to some nameless third party - a third party who did nothing to contribute to the player's success, took none of the player's risks, and whose only contribution was the installation of a cookie on the players' computer during the ten seconds it took the player to realize the affilate site was just another lame banner farm. (Affiliates spend a lot of time on "search engine optimization," for just this reason.)

So what's the solution?

The solution was "rake-back."

At first it was mainly informal, and behind the scenes. You had to be in the know, and you had to know the right people. But word spread, as word will, and pretty soon - from a player's point of view - you had to be a moron, not to have an affilate deal. In fact, it was a godsend, since it represented guaranteed income - insurance against the (inevitable) losing month. Many players paid their rent, off rake-back alone (and still do).

As good as this situation was for the players, though, it was not a good situation for established affiliates, or for Party Poker itself.

The established affiliates were losing their "whales" to the rake-backers (who, in fairness, were not actually "promoting" Party, but were simply taking over players who already played there.) Why should we spend all our money and time, they asked, promoting Party and Google-optimizing, only to have our players stolen from us, as soon as they get wise to what's going on?

Party couldn't give a good answer to that, of course, and at least some of the affilates who were asking the question, belonged to organizations Party did not want to piss off.

Worse - from Party's point of view - was that the main method players were using to get rake-back (since it was not "officially" allowed at Party), was to set up a rake-back account at one of the Party skins (Eurobet, Empire, etc.).

In effect, Party's players - their best, most profitable players - were getting raided by Party's own skins. And while the skins didn't "officially" allow it either, they were very lenient, because they didn't much care who got the affiliate payment, as long as they got the player.

It was an intolerable situation, and it was at least partially resolved several months ago, when Party summarily gave the boot to its skins - all of them.

Some died, others got bought out by Party, and one or two moved on to other networks. But Party has no skins, anymore.

And Party still does not "officially" tolerate rake-back. It still goes on, of course, but it's more secretive now, and players who want it must be willing to cut a few corners and break a few rules. That is, if they had the bad luck of signing up through a non-rakeback affiliate, or directly through Party, before finding out about the much better deals that are out there.

Some players moved off Party altogether - those that weren't willing to dupe Party into thinking they were "new" players to get rakeback, and weren't willing to play at Party without it.

Around this time PokerStars offered a new VIP program. It's basically a comp program, except that it's much more generous than any other out there. It's still not quite as good as rakeback. But it does offer a couple of advantages - for one, it's perfectly legal, and entirely above-board. For another, you get to deal with the site directly, instead of going through an affiliate, who may or may not pay you (or even exist) from one month to the other.

PokerStars is the second biggest poker room out there, and it's slowly closing the gap against Party.

It has the best CS, the most reliable software, and the best anti-cheating security.

You might not know that, however - or anything about Stars at all - if you rely on affiliate sites as your source of information.

You see, Stars does not pay 25%-30% of its profits out to affiliates. As a result, affiliates do not promote them.

Whether there's any connection between the amount Stars saves in affiliate payments, and the amount it spends on its comp program is entirely conjectural, of course.

It's possible there's no connection, at all.

 

[dominique]

The difference being that poker affiliates who work with poker rooms that are geared towards rakeback have acess to player information, or the poker rooms automatically credit the player.

Casino affiliates never do. Player info is kept confidential. Casinos automatically credit the player with loyalty points.

In effect, loyalty rewards = rakeback.

Same thing, different name.

 

[casino employee]

I thought they only make 10% or so, that'd be reasonable.
But 25%-50% , wow....makes me feel sick knowing what could have been my rebates and comps went to somebody else for basically doing nothing or very little. Or by spamming me! Talking about unjust enrichment.

Ha-ha! Someone finally caught on....

Actually I'm laughing in both directions because valid points were made by all parties: A23456789TJQK, fundamentally it doesn't matter that the casino shares your losses with sites that referred you / sites through which you clicked to get to the casino. It doesn't even matter how much the casino paid to receive you as a customer - let the casino cry over that (and yes, 50% is very possible in this industry). You've come across the bare-knuckles reality of this business but it shouldn't be interpreted as you the player getting ripped off. At least not in the overall theoretical sense of how traffic is directed on the internet. But there's a lot of room for deception and conflicting interests.

NOW, on the other hand, unfortunately lots of affiliate sites contain biased information and so not necessarily refer you to truly "good" casinos. For instance if "Casino A" is a known rogue casino and a certain affiliate plugs them, if that same affiliate also plugs the sister casinos "Casino B", "C" and "D" then all 4 of them will be that affiliate's alleged "Best Casinos" promoted on the site. And so it goes that if you don't know much about casinos and you reach that affiliate site, you're likely to get sent to bad casinos.

In a similar way, if an affiliate does business with casinos that use one type of software, it's possible that all/most of the promoted casinos will also be those which use the same software. They may not bad-mouth casinos using other software, but all the positive comments and "awards" given will go only to casinos using that specific type of software.

...Some casinos even own their own portal / affiliate-looking sites.

Chat boards are a good way of getting a feel for which casinos are safe - but still here the threads run the risk of being tainted by posters who are in fact affiliates. And many chatboard posters are. It's a subtle form of shilling.

The reason why this affiliate industry exists is because casinos are restricted in most countries as to where they can advertise (i.e. not in print, not on TV or radio). As a result this affiliate industry has mushroomed to absorb the need for casinos to get promotional/advertising space. Though again, the people selling us that space don't have your best interests at the top of their priorities because they have a business to run, and those business needs necessarily have to come first. It's just an issue of how well balanced the affiliate's site content is....

 

[Chatmaster]

Ha-ha! Someone finally caught on....

50% is only possible from a casino's perspective if that 50% is commission including losses, with carry-over etc. That will only be possible for specific software operators as well, ussually dodgy ones or in-house software.

Something you and others need to understand. Affiliate programs are a internet marketing method, just like SEO, Email Marketing, Viral Marketing and Banner advertising. This is not unique to the Casino or Gambling industry! I honestly do not understand what this entire thread is on about!

lots0, You are spot-on with the fact that if you can make 1k you can make 10k very true. I have been fortunate to be on both sides of the spectrum. It is a tough business and VERY hard work!

 

[casino employee]

This thread as it's developing is about what the average gambler should be concerned about (or not) regarding using affiliate sites.

It's correct that the affiliation concept exists in many industries but what makes casino/online gaming affiliation different to that with other services or products is that the online gaming industry is unregulated. There are no internationally established regulations and standards by which online casinos (or affiliates for that matter) should operate by. It's very much a "buyer beware" industry where trust and good faith are given by customers long before they know if they're going to be treated fairly by the casino.

This is different to seeing affiliate links for software or merchandise vendors on the net: at least with those products there is a definite body that stands behind it and can be contacted in the event of a problem; the products can be researched in the press and the customer can make an informed decision.

With online gaming sites, the average gambler only has the content presented by the affiliate / advertising site - and he doesn't always know how balanced that view is. There are very few such sites with a good enough reputation that their information can be trusted, and a lot of first-time online gamers haven't been around long enough to know which sites those are.

 

[Chatmaster]

This thread as it's developing is about what the average gambler should be concerned about (or not) regarding using affiliate sites.

Very true!

It's correct that the affiliation concept exists in many industries but what makes casino/online gaming affiliation different to that with other services or products is that the online gaming industry is unregulated.
There are no internationally established regulations and standards by which online casinos (or affiliates for that matter) should operate by. It's very much a "buyer beware" industry where trust and good faith are given by customers long before they know if they're going to be treated fairly by the casino.

Mmmmmm, I have re-read this part of your post a few times. I completely disagree on the unregulated part. There are license jurisdictions that are worth there part in gold. On the International regulations and please don't derail this thread with crap eCOGRA fill those shoes perfectly in my view and from the avarage gambler's view.

This is different to seeing affiliate links for software or merchandise vendors on the net: at least with those products there is a definite body that stands behind it and can be contacted in the event of a problem; the products can be researched in the press and the customer can make an informed decision.

I have NO idea what you are talking about here. If I sell viagra on my pharma site what body controls what I say there. If I sell wild duck feathers who the hell is controling my actions then. The online casino industry is probably the best regulated industry on the internet yeeeeeezzzzz!

With online gaming sites, the average gambler only has the content presented by the affiliate / advertising site - and he doesn't always know how balanced that view is. There are very few such sites with a good enough reputation that their information can be trusted, and a lot of first-time online gamers haven't been around long enough to know which sites those are.

Now that I cannot argue! Very Very true!

 

[casino employee]

I have NO idea what you are talking about here. If I sell viagra on my pharma site what body controls what I say there. If I sell wild duck feathers who the hell is controling my actions then. The online casino industry is probably the best regulated industry on the internet yeeeeeezzzzz!

You should: if there's a problem with Viagra (or someone promoting it) a customer can contact Pfizer or the Food and Drug Admistration or even law enforcement. If a person has an affiliate link for eBay or Amazon, there's a clear and definite body a person can turn to for assistance.

However, should a person feel ripped off by "Oshkosh Casino" - as we read here every hour of the day - we know there's no one for him to turn to. No address, no transparency. And license seals as we see over and over also mean nothing in practice. There is no body of regulations that dictates how an online casino should run. Only publicly traded gaming sites have any degree of transparency.

Now I know why you would say that "The online casino industry is probably the best regulated industry on the internet" ("on the internet" is a key twist: this is a cowboy industry where everything is 'legal' until laws say otherwise) - that's your bread and butter. When there is real international regulation and casinos can advertise anywhere, your income may drop by 50 or more percent. But for now things are good for you, casinos need you. All the more power to you for being an affiliate - I don't say that's bad - but don't make a fool of yourself in public calling this a regulated industry. What do you think the Kyl bill and other attempts at banning are all about?

Same thing with eCogra (since you mention it): 98% Microgaming, 2% brand name. It's a private club for all purposes; it's members police themselves. It doesn't represent any governments and it certainly doesn't substitute for "international regulation".

 

[Chatmaster]

You still don't get it. If the internet was based in the US alone your point of view would have made sense. However it is not. I have several online interests and act as an online marketing specialist in various industries. I can asure you that online casino industry is the most regulated and best policed online industry.

If I want to advertise viagra today and claim that it gives you the ability to fly, there is nothing that you as a visitor can do about it. You cannot get my liars license pulled or get my eLIARS seal removed. Nor can I end up getting my casino closed down because of public statements. Do you understand my point of view? Do yourself a favor and go through the rogue list and see how many of those casinos still has websites? It is shocking! Very few! Then go through those site names and see where they are blacklisted and rogued. Affiliate sites! If a casino is not properly licensed or dodgy where are the blacklisted and who reveals these issues first? Affiliates! I still say that the casino industry due to the conduct of many affiliates a safer place and once again add one of the best regulated industries online.

 

[casino employee]

We have differing interpretations of the word "regulated".

Your example is the outcome of how things work in this industry at the moment: a casino cheats a player (or a webmaster) and the event is publicized, leading - eventually - to the casino losing business.

However, while this cause and effect relationship does exist, this is not a true form of "regulation". That rogue casino going out of business is more the effect of slow strangulation than an actual rendering of accounts between it, the law and its unhappy customers. It's literally like old-fashioned wild west hang 'em high justice. AND - sometimes the dead resurrect, and yesterday's rogue casino "X" is today's new casino "Y" - nothing prevents the same bad firm from coming back.

The recent 888 issue didn't interest me but from what I saw it provided a perfect example of non-regulation in this industry: an upstanding casino which does everything to the 'tee' suddenly turns around and does something that agitates the industry. In an unregulated environment this is perfectly possible: in fact (until they went public) there was nothing to legally stop 888 from suddenly withholding payments or "flipping the switch" if they want to. And as usually happens, casinos which deviate from ethical norms but eventually come around are all forgiven. There's no real compensation made for the injustices they committed.

But the rounds of criticism on chatboards or delistings by affiliate sites don't compensate for a lack of proper *legal* regulation. What we have today is simply this: [some] affiliates/webmasters blacklist allegedly bad sites because to be seen to do business with a rogue business makes that affiliate also look bad - guilt by association. This isn't justice, it's just an expedient. And there is no direct justice for the abused customer. He has to hope that self-policing in this industry works, but because under today's circumstances money changing hands can buy silence or influence site content our mechanism of self-policing (and this includes eCogra) is imperfect.

You'd have to ask yourself: if the current system is so good how is it that so many bad casinos still have affiliates plugging them? And why in general is affiliate content by and large so propagandistic? Sites pose as objective locations and yet all the content is slanted and biased. Why, because the bottom line is business and not justice. Everything goes.

As regards non-casino affiliations, I'm sure that manufacturers like Pfizer or the FDA can locate misleading affiliates because the product you're dealing with is a regulated item (or a known object in a regulated market) made by a transparent firm, with a name and an address. Distance doesn't protect these companies - that's how tobacco firms still got sued in foreign countries; that's how eBay got sued in France for carrying certain German items.

That's precisely the weak link with online casinos - no country has established a proper body of laws determining what it really is and how it should operate. And for their part online casinos don't sue against misleading advertisements or other issues because they don't want to rock the boat. Better to settle - or suffer - silently, than to make noise.