Bitch and Moan InterCasino Incident - What is your opinion? (warning: REALLY long)

DiamondGeezer

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JHV believe me you would have no legal success in the UK over the 'limited withdrawal facility' argument - ie you gambled it and lost because the casino wouldn't let you withdraw.

All these sorts of cases have been pretty well done to death in the UK courts and the casinos always win. The most recent was a guy in Newcastle who lost over 1m to William Hill. The guy self excluded himself saying he was an addictive gambler but later started using the account again and found the self exclusion was not working. He then went on to lose over 1m to them. He then sued WH but lost.

On the face of it that looks pretty harsh to the individual player. But the courts decided that it was not in the public interest as it could lead to a flood of claims. Also WH can afford the very best lawyers who would argue that the guy could just as easily have lost all that money at Ladbrokes, Coral or wherever.

I appreciate these judgements can look hard on the player. But for the rest of us it is not a bad thing. It would not be a good thing if these addicts got all their money back while the vast majority of players had no such recourse. Soon everybody would be using 'hey I'm an addict' argument.

You often hear the argument about slow or limited withdrawals but this is very easily refuted by the money laundering and anti terror laws. It may be true that casinos may hide behind these to an extent but no Judge is ever going to convict a casino for doing due dilligence even if it may be slow at times.

Lastly, for all the gamblers who suffer at bookies you do get situations where the bookies got royally screwed over. Obviously this applies to bookies rather than casinos. For example in the UK there was a mass gamble landed over a match involving Weymouth. There was some dispute of sorts and on the day of the match they had to play the youth team. Word got around in the town and by about 11 O'clock there were long queues round all the bookies. The bookies kept cutting the prices but the money kept pouring on as for about an hour or more none of the bookies infact knew about the substitute team.

Weymouth lost the match 9-0 and the combined bookie losses were well over 1m on this match alone. So it does happen the other way, particularly in horse racing. I think the courts recognise there has to be a lot of give and take in gambling or it would all seize up.
 

JHV

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Yea a lot of this makes sense.

Except the nonsense about bookies. Cry me a river :)

The day I shed a tear over ANYTHING bad happening to a UK/Aust bookie working off 15% margin on w/e...well that day will never come.
 

Mouche12

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I appreciate all that is said. However, I am not referring to the limited withdrawal issue (which is bad enough I give you that). I basically meant the amount of software errors (disconnection issues) in combination with the reversal to minimum bet size (which happens to be just the other way around compared to slots, which are being reversed to maximum bet size).

I am not a lawyer, but there is such a thing as the principle of fairness and reasonableness, that is also applied in courts. Given the details of this case, the volume of the total bets, (but not that you are or are not an addicted gambler, I agree that would not work), the email correspondence with CS and above all the game log showing this sudden one-time change to minimum bet size, I would say it is fair and reasonable for Intercasino to offer some compensation (to be determined by the court), also taking into account the the nuisance of all too frequent disconnections.

Why not give it a try?
 

JHV

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I appreciate all that is said. However, I am not referring to the limited withdrawal issue (which is bad enough I give you that). I basically meant the amount of software errors (disconnection issues) in combination with the reversal to minimum bet size (which happens to be just the other way around compared to slots, which are being reversed to maximum bet size).

I am not a lawyer, but there is such a thing as the principle of fairness and reasonableness, that is also applied in courts. Given the details of this case, the volume of the total bets, (but not that you are or are not an addicted gambler, I agree that would not work), the email correspondence with CS and above all the game log showing this sudden one-time change to minimum bet size, I would say it is fair and reasonable for Intercasino to offer some compensation (to be determined by the court), also taking into account the the nuisance of all too frequent disconnections.

Why not give it a try?

At the risk of sounding insane and wankerish (but it's more laziness and the fact that I don't think judges should rule on *that* aspect of the issue), it's not really worth my time for the 25k - I would do it if I thought I could bring more public exposure to InterCasino for being unethical in lying to me about waiting for logs which had no impact on the decision (I'll admit that's really sick, and someone will go to a hypothetical Hell for that).

However, please understand that their policy (whilst incredibly confusing and could probably be made better or streamlined to be consistent in some way) - is not a bug. They just have two different policies (and there is almost some logic to having two policies regarding coin size defaults when you d/c).

If in middle of hand, the software replays the hand and your coin size is never altered for future hands.

If NOT in middle of hand, the software defaults to min coin size. There are slight improvements I would / could make to this (hell, maybe if a player has wagered 15,000 wagers on Max Coin in a row, and he's about to press min coin 5c, maybe a popup window like Chartwell has "Are you sure you want to hit on xxx" in Blackjack. I could fix the issue so that the policies are no longer confusing but InterCasino is not paying me, therefore I'm not in the (charity) consultancy business. The point is that the two policies are very confusing, as you can imagine. If every time you login, you never have to change your coin size to the one you want - it's pretty reasonable to assume that every time you login after a server d/c, it would be the same. Only later was it explained to me by CS that they have two policies for whether you're in a hand or not.

In fact, I'm fairly certain the lady herself didn't understand there were two policies. I may have worked it out on my own down the track.

---------

And, I also have a responsibility to mention they did offer 7500 or so total (? meh) in 2 or 3 small no-deposit (but with wagering requirements - not that I would have withdrawn, I was on sick tilt and chasing my 130k back) "consolation bonuses" in the end - but I found these little token 2k droppings insulting and I told them that. They console me with scraps from the table of a feast I catered for - and they console me after having lied to and effectively tricked me into losing 6 figures after they took advantage of my misunderstanding of a very complex policy system for default bets upon returning from disconnect - to actually steal my money. People won't like that strong word, but I see it as theft.

Now, the money I lost whilst they lied to me about the days waiting for reports which she led me to very much believe (if showing that I telling truth about wagering history), that was not so much stolen as craftily tricked out of me. Maybe a similar analogy would be making a bet with a REALLY drunk friend and lying to him saying you don't know the answer when you really do and he's too drunk to function as well). It's not 'theft' - but it's close. Very, very close. W.C. Fields would disagree, but I try to operate on a more humanistic moral code and will not actively contribute to a situation where I can scam someone - and I was foolish enough to assume they would be ethical as well due to their "good reputation".

I dropped out of Masters Law about 3 weeks into the course and don't know much about law at all. I had to remind myself what the definition of "prima facie" was this morning lol. But imo law, especially financial and contract law, should be very much emotionless and on face value only. The less emotion in the judicial system, the better.

Was that $25,000 rightfully mine? 100% - and anyone who cannot see it disappoints me.

Should a court rule in my favour on it? I'm not sure. Although 6 mil turnover and 15,000 bets at Max Coin can't be argued with - where do you draw the line? Who gets to draw the line? Judges can't rule on that, I don't think - judges shouldn't, imo.

InterCasino should have just NOT stolen the money. I would think they're rich enough that they don't have to take advantage of technicalities and confusing double policies purely to rip off their players.

I won't take them to court. But I will crush them as they deserved to be crushed (verbally) for the rest of my life - and whilst I'm just one rambling writer, I get around a bit. I just hope to make their decision -EV for them...as that will help players in the future.
 

Mouche12

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Okay then, maybe it is more in your line to look for some good journalists? Although I still think that the frequent disconnections (the root of the problems occurring thereafter) are still an issue that deserve attention, first of all by consulting a lawyer. But if you don't wish to spend any time on that, okay.

There are various gambling magazines, like Gambling.com (are they still in business, I don't receive any issues anymore), maybe you would like to contact them or perhaps there is someone in this forum who knows a couple of good journalists who would be interested in this matter?
 

JHV

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Okay then, maybe it is more in your line to look for some good journalists? Although I still think that the frequent disconnections (the root of the problems occurring thereafter) are still an issue that deserve attention, first of all by consulting a lawyer. But if you don't wish to spend any time on that, okay.

There are various gambling magazines, like Gambling.com (are they still in business, I don't receive any issues anymore), maybe you would like to contact them or perhaps there is someone in this forum who knows a couple of good journalists who would be interested in this matter?

I appreciate that you strongly (and correctly) agree with me that it was a very messed up and sick situation handled horribly, indisputably unethical and (in your opinion, arguably criminally) by InterCasino - the simple fact is that the industry has no incentive to expose or even publicise this type of incident.

These industries make a lot of money. A magazine is a vehicle for advertising / marketing the major online casinos. If they start doing expose's on InterCasino and other major casinos, they would be bankrupt very quickly. These publications, and almost all "online casino review sites" are as about as objective as a mother holding her ugly newborn child in her arms :) - you simply will NEVER get objective advice or even ethical advice from those sites unless they have someone editorialising who cares about ethics and delists valuable revenue sources for unethical behaviour, as I did twice when Editor of casino.pokernews.com.

Now, the above is valid, but there are some CLEAR exceptions to this rule:

1. Casinomeister.com - obviously

2. WizardofOdds - (to a lesser extent, he's not so much "watchdog" and provides other valuable services)

------------

I am no longer protecting my former "friends" at PokerNews. When Rome / Top Game fiasco occurred, resulting in my having to chargeback those funds - I sent the CM thread plus a summary email to my friends who are responsible for the site.

I expected Rome to be delisted within hours, if not minutes - a former Editor is saying they stole $3000 from him (in the sense that it was unrecoverable and he was forced to chargeback his card).

If I was Editor (as I was until Dec 08), I would have pulled Rome off based on a random accusation of such behaviour if it looked plausible. If I'm wrong, no foul, I'd put them back up in an hour or two once everything sorted. But you HAVE to protect players in the meantime.

I pulled two Casinos in fury during my time as Editor, and I was wrong to do so on one of them (Casino777 - who you will still see listed at 4th place - there were language barriers creating confusion and I should have been more patient, they were understanding). The other casino I can't remember who it was, I saw them on CM's Rogue List and pulled them. They were never listed again.

One month (?) after I brought my "friends'" attention to how Rome treats their customers, Rome is still listed as the 2nd Most Trusted Online Casino Room (I wrote those words 2 yrs ago) - they were not meant to sit above terrible operators like Rome.

It appears, and I'm waiting on an explanation as to why their behaviour was ignored and they are still recommended as 2nd most trusted - but it appears that my friends value $ > ethics / morals.

If that's the case, and I believe it is, they can go to the InterCasino hypothetical Hell which awaits those that would lie, and have innocents suffer as a result, just to retain / increase incoming revenue.

I'm no saint by any means, but this is disgusting behaviour to me. Disgusting.
 

Mouche12

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Point taken, but it just struck me that you mentioned in of of your last threads that Intercasino offered you two ND bonuses of 7,500. I believe you did not mention this earlier. When exactly did they offer you that? Can this not be considered as some sort of compensation? Please elaborate once more, thanks!
 

JHV

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Point taken, but it just struck me that you mentioned in of of your last threads that Intercasino offered you two ND bonuses of 7,500. I believe you did not mention this earlier. When exactly did they offer you that? Can this not be considered as some sort of compensation? Please elaborate once more, thanks!

They gave me like 2000 after I emptied my account of 100,000 whilst the lady waiting for those darned wagering logs to show whilst I gambled :)

Then they gave me like a 5000 one i think AFTER I completely tear the lady apart over her insulting lie in an email telling me she'd "pulled strings and called in favours" to get me into VIP club where I get match deposit bonuses and 1% cashback. Woot.

No, I do not consider them compensation. I consider them insults and told them I would consider them insults before the placed the token bonuses in my account - which they did anyway, busted both in minutes, so they wasted my time even more :)
 

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This is quite an incredible thread.

Excluding 'played through/wagered' winnings - how much have you actually deposited and lost at Intercasino during this relatively short space of time?
 

JHV

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This is quite an incredible thread.

Excluding 'played through/wagered' winnings - how much have you actually deposited and lost at Intercasino during this relatively short space of time?

I have a rough idea, but I try not to think about it - for all casinos. It's in the past. Do I wish I didn't lose so much? sure. but I also wish Natalie Portman was here, I wish I could get a decent copy of The Hangover that isn't pirated crap....that's like all my wishes right now - but my point is, wishing is a nice game to play, but I suck at it. So I don't lose sleep over it.
 

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I have a rough idea, but I try not to think about it - for all casinos. It's in the past. Do I wish I didn't lose so much? sure. but I also wish Natalie Portman was here, I wish I could get a decent copy of The Hangover that isn't pirated crap....that's like all my wishes right now - but my point is, wishing is a nice game to play, but I suck at it. So I don't lose sleep over it.

I'm just trying to put this into perspective.

Taking wagering/playthrough of casino funds out of the equation - If you'd deposited, and lost, say $100k - 25% 'cashback' is a no brainer; any casino manager in the right mind would take all of the nonsense out of the equation and just drop it into your account. Similarly, if you'd only dropped $10k in but got incredibly lucky wagering 6 million quid of 'casino funds' - it'd be a much tougher decision.

Essentially - does the $25k you feel aggrieved about equate to more or less than around 25% of your net deposits from your own funds.
 

JHV

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I'm just trying to put this into perspective.

Taking wagering/playthrough of casino funds out of the equation - If you'd deposited, and lost, say $100k - 25% 'cashback' is a no brainer; any casino manager in the right mind would take all of the nonsense out of the equation and just drop it into your account. Similarly, if you'd only dropped $10k in but got incredibly lucky wagering 6 million quid of 'casino funds' - it'd be a much tougher decision.

Essentially - does the $25k you feel aggrieved about equate to more or less than around 25% of your net deposits from your own funds.

What is the question you are trying to ask me - is it the same one as the one I politely declined to answer? Because it looks a lot like the same one.

I would ask you kindly not to ask me a third time. Thanks.
 

Slotster!

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What is the question you are trying to ask me - is it the same one as the one I politely declined to answer? Because it looks a lot like the same one.

I would ask you kindly not to ask me a third time. Thanks.

Fair enough.

That's pretty much the whole crux of the situation in terms of understanding the casino decision not to reimburse you the 25K though... Of course it's your prerogative not to share that information; consequentially the third party observer will be inclined to agree with the casino on the information provided.
 

Mouche12

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What is the question you are trying to ask me - is it the same one as the one I politely declined to answer? Because it looks a lot like the same one.

I would ask you kindly not to ask me a third time. Thanks.
Reply With Quote[/I

Sorry, could you please elaborate what question you are referring to?
Is it similar to the one asking me about the ND bonuses amounting to 15,000 as some sort of compensation by the casino?

Thanks!
 

JHV

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Fair enough.

That's pretty much the whole crux of the situation in terms of understanding the casino decision not to reimburse you the 25K though... Of course it's your prerogative not to share that information; consequentially the third party observer will be inclined to agree with the casino on the information provided.

I've actually shared the information, multiple times.

It's simply that the whole "crux" of the situation is not what you think it is. I'm saying my money was stolen in an unethical and immoral and 'possibly' illegal manner. That's the crux of the situation. You haven't even read the information provided - so why don't you go do that now. But first, I shall explain the little game I was just playing with you over the last few posts.

It's your obnoxious attitude clearly present from the tone in your first post I didn't like. I read people quickly. So I didn't answer your question, but I did so in a polite manner and with a flippant comment about "the past is the past"...had you asked something like "If you don't mind me asking....and I know it's not at all relevant to the issue at hand, but it might be of interest as a side-issue if you put yourself in the position of a cold, dirty casino manager with no other considerations about ethics or morals - all his decisions are made with zero emotion, he's a psychopath - he would be concerned with how much you'd won/deposited/blah blah. blah." - you might have received a different answer and a firm but polite acknowledgment that I'm not a an idiot and I understand these very simple level 1 concepts.

As I knew you would, because I read you perfectly from your first silly post - you VERY RUDELY asked again, ignoring the polite but clear dismissal of your direct and rude question.

Now, I was just playing with you a bit. I just had a read that you were a bit of a dick and wanted to test it - you'll note I tested my theory whilst remaining polite both times. I am quite flippant about how much I've lost, had you even bothered to read around a bit, you'd have a pretty good idea. But you didn't know this - you asked a question and received a classic polite "I'd rather not talk about it type of response" from the respondent.

Rather than respecting their clear stated wish that they didn't want to talk abut it, you push forward like a selfish and rude jerk after the person clearly stated they preferred not to think about it. You're despicable.

Again, I couldn't care less. I just wanted to toy with you, I continue playing my own private game - and give my best impression that I REALLY don't want to talk about it, that to do so would make me uncomfortable. And, of course, instead of apologising like a human being would, you show zero remorse for your disgustingly rude and obnoxious behaviour, and you attempt to give me a lesson in Logic 101 as if I was a stupid child that needed basic logic explained to me.

From this, I learned a few things:
a) You are either lazy or you can't read at average > better speed - or, you might even struggle with reading and don't like it at all (dyslexic, learning disorder, etc)
b) Had you read this entire thread, you would realise I hold very strong opinions as to "why" they did what they did. If you are wondering "why", you are a moron. If you think I am wondering "why", you are sorely mistaken.
c) That I don't like you because you lecture level 1 basic logic as if it's some wisdom you're handing down. If there's things I have said in my posts that have led you to believe that I am in some way requiring of someone to spell out Level 1 IDO logic to me, please point such things out to me - I would be genuinely interested in how I gave that impression.

But I'm pretty confident you have a aversion to reading - and we cannot converse because I have an aversion to brevity. We're doomed and can never be friends. I'm sorry - this hurts me more than it hurts you.

There are some people on this forum for whom your "ground-breaking" common-sense logic might wow them, but I am in not in that group.

Run along boy and I'd request not to post in any of my threads again or, if you are compelled to, please don't address your questions at me. I have no wish to converse with you again. And you'd do well to watch your manners in the future.....
 

JHV

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What is the question you are trying to ask me - is it the same one as the one I politely declined to answer? Because it looks a lot like the same one.

I would ask you kindly not to ask me a third time. Thanks.
Reply With Quote[/I

Sorry, could you please elaborate what question you are referring to?
Is it similar to the one asking me about the ND bonuses amounting to 15,000 as some sort of compensation by the casino?

Thanks!


No Mouche, I was playing a little game with the idiot who was being rude from his first post and I toyed with him a little as I was bored. And he deserved it.

My request was in response to his disgustingly rude and obnoxious 2nd post after I politely turned the other cheek at his first.
 

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I've actually shared the information, multiple times.

It's simply that the whole "crux" of the situation is not what you think it is. I'm saying my money was stolen in an unethical and immoral and 'possibly' illegal manner. That's the crux of the situation. You haven't even read the information provided - so why don't you go do that now. But first, I shall explain the little game I was just playing with you over the last few posts.

It's your obnoxious attitude clearly present from the tone in your first post I didn't like. I read people quickly. So I didn't answer your question, but I did so in a polite manner and with a flippant comment about "the past is the past"...had you asked something like "If you don't mind me asking....and I know it's not at all relevant to the issue at hand, but it might be of interest as a side-issue if you put yourself in the position of a cold, dirty casino manager with no other considerations about ethics or morals - all his decisions are made with zero emotion, he's a psychopath - he would be concerned with how much you'd won/deposited/blah blah. blah." - you might have received a different answer and a firm but polite acknowledgment that I'm not a an idiot and I understand these very simple level 1 concepts.

As I knew you would, because I read you perfectly from your first silly post - you VERY RUDELY asked again, ignoring the polite but clear dismissal of your direct and rude question.

Now, I was just playing with you a bit. I just had a read that you were a bit of a dick and wanted to test it - you'll note I tested my theory whilst remaining polite both times. I am quite flippant about how much I've lost, had you even bothered to read around a bit, you'd have a pretty good idea. But you didn't know this - you asked a question and received a classic polite "I'd rather not talk about it type of response" from the respondent.

Rather than respecting their clear stated wish that they didn't want to talk abut it, you push forward like a selfish and rude jerk after the person clearly stated they preferred not to think about it. You're despicable.

Again, I couldn't care less. I just wanted to toy with you, I continue playing my own private game - and give my best impression that I REALLY don't want to talk about it, that to do so would make me uncomfortable. And, of course, instead of apologising like a human being would, you show zero remorse for your disgustingly rude and obnoxious behaviour, and you attempt to give me a lesson in Logic 101 as if I was a stupid child that needed basic logic explained to me.

From this, I learned a few things:
a) You are either lazy or you can't read at average > better speed - or, you might even struggle with reading and don't like it at all (dyslexic, learning disorder, etc)
b) Had you read this entire thread, you would realise I hold very strong opinions as to "why" they did what they did. If you are wondering "why", you are a moron. If you think I am wondering "why", you are sorely mistaken.
c) That I don't like you because you lecture level 1 basic logic as if it's some wisdom you're handing down. If there's things I have said in my posts that have led you to believe that I am in some way requiring of someone to spell out Level 1 IDO logic to me, please point such things out to me - I would be genuinely interested in how I gave that impression.

But I'm pretty confident you have a aversion to reading - and we cannot converse because I have an aversion to brevity. We're doomed and can never be friends. I'm sorry - this hurts me more than it hurts you.

There are some people on this forum for whom your "ground-breaking" common-sense logic might wow them, but I am in not in that group.

Run along boy and I'd request not to post in any of my threads again or, if you are compelled to, please don't address your questions at me. I have no wish to converse with you again. And you'd do well to watch your manners in the future.....

That is a thing of beauty.

You are my new favourite forum contributor :thumbsup:
 

Mouche12

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Okay then, but as I asked before, can the 15,000 in ND bonuses be considered as some sort of compensation by Intercasino or am I wrong in assuming this? Thanks for the elaboration!
 

JHV

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Okay then, but as I asked before, can the 15,000 in ND bonuses be considered as some sort of compensation by Intercasino or am I wrong in assuming this? Thanks for the elaboration!

I answered this already dude. And it wasn't 15k. It was like "here is 2k with big wagering limits attached" - after I'd lost a fortune whilst they stalled / screwed / worked me over in a brilliant and more talented fashion that I believed possible at the time.

I told them to stick their 2k up their....they put it in my account instead. It lasted 2 spins.

When I coldly crushed the lady over the whole "you lucky guy you! I've twisted arms and pulled strings to get you a match deposit bonus - aren't you lucky!!" (paraphrased) - I ripped her apart (she deserved a lot worse than some choice words, I now believe).

In response to my verbal bashing, another promotions manager took over my account and said he was putting 5k in with wagering requirements. I told him to stick it up his...he put it in my account instead. That didn't last very long either lolz.

I think there was one more bonus but I had to deposit for it - and I was WELL into an out on control / angry at the world's lack of ethics...vortex downwards spiral by then, anyone who sent me an email probably got a deposit out of me :)

-----

To your question as to these piecemeal insulting bonuses....I found them insulting and said so numerous times to anyone who would listen. They would keep trying to remind me how "nice" they were being but offering me a tiny bonus here and there and I had firm ideas about where those bonuses should be placed, and was likely descriptive in suggesting where they stick could stick they bs commiserations and insulting patronising and all their endless "efforts" they would try to convince me they were undertaking on my behalf. I never withdrew a cent after they limited me to 10k when I wanted to take out 110k or so. And I put a LOT more back in after that :(
 
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