Immortal Romance

[ecopac]

Ok so I take it all back, I've had a decent hit finally! After 4 rounds of Wild Vine with literally 2 wild vines appearing in over 100 spins, I hit this bad boy. The vine actually went to reel 2 and 4 and 5 and made loads of 5 of a kind with an IR symbol.

I know it's not the biggest hit possible, but I think I'm giving up on this slot now, it's just so frustrating so think I'll go out on a high! 90p stake so 405x stake!

 

[sapit222]

Good to hear you got a nice win finaly!

Gratz to that!

 

[dunover]

Let me add my 5 penn'orth - on IR the biggest win attainable is obviously the 5 reels full of wilds on the menstruation feature or whatever it's called. The SECOND biggest win (never seen AFAIK) is the 5 Sarahs and wilds all showing on the 5xAmber feature - pays 5 wilds plus 1 single 5-sarahs and 32 double-sarahs = 64+1 sarahs x5 = 321 5-sarahs at base stake. This win is greater than the second best menstruation feature which is 4 wild reels plus troy and sarah showing on the free reel.
As for reels, they are simply a visual representation of a random outcome you pick when pressing start. The reels should not be seen a randomly falling in one by one. I.E. you press start, your rng is awarding say 90p for a 90P stake on TSII - the amount will show in your balance BEFORE the reels even stop if you are running a downloaded MG casino for example. Test this when you get a shitstorm start - before Thor's todger even swings down, click your balance in the bottom left and if you remembered what it was before your shitstorm started click and see what it will be after Thor has executed his tedious routine. So, you press spin at 90p a go, and click your balance, and it is the same because you are just about to win 90p. The rng has awarded this win, and then picks from a library of videos which display a 90p win, ie. 2 scatters OR 4 tens with a double OR aces/kings on reels 123 with a wild on one. This is how your slot works. Same on shitstorm, your win is preselected, the video is simply different. Simples.

 

[nishi]

Thanks KK chopley balthazar etc i understand what you ppls saying..

but the thing baffles me a spin result can be determined when you press spin ok but how a set of 15 free spins can be predetermined each has individual Rng right then ..how can it can be predetermined

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Thanks KK chopley balthazar etc i understand what you ppls saying..

but the thing baffles me a spin result can be determined when you press spin ok but how a set of 15 free spins can be predetermined each has individual Rng right then ..how can it can be predetermined

Because the 15 spins aren't random, the total reward for the free spins round was determined the instant you started the spin that triggered the bonus round.

Imagine that every time you press SPIN, the following happens:

1) Your client calls the server saying 'Give me a spin result'
2) The server calls its RNG saying 'Give me a spin result'
3) The RNG returns a value to the server, 'Here's your spin result'
4) Your client receives that value, 'Thanks for the spin result' and displays reels/animations/bonus rounds/etc to display that value

That's not a technical explanation but it's basically how it works, the key point is that everything is decided at step 3, when the RNG returns the value. That value may be zero, or 1x stake, or 5x stake, or free spins round paying 100x stake etc.

 

[zap987]

Except this is nothing like how it actually works for the vast majority of online video slots.

Each spin is independent, including free spins. There have been a few examples of softwares that do generate all the spins for free spins at once but most do them one at a time. Doesn't really change anything as long as each reel and spin is independent of any others. There is no magic calculating of how many times bet you will win, that is evaluated after each reels stop position is drawn and depends on the paytable. More details can be found at wizardofodds.com in the slots section.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Except this is nothing like how it actually works for the vast majority of online video slots.

Each spin is independent, including free spins. There have been a few examples of softwares that do generate all the spins for free spins at once but most do them one at a time. Doesn't really change anything as long as each reel and spin is independent of any others. There is no magic calculating of how many times bet you will win, that is evaluated after each reels stop position is drawn and depends on the paytable. More details can be found at wizardofodds.com in the slots section.

The only software I can imagine working like that now is clunky old stuff like RTG.

The way bonus and free spins rounds are played out these days are too elaborate to be anything other than a sound and light show for a pre-determined result IMO.

 

[dunover]

The only software I can imagine working like that now is clunky old stuff like RTG.

The way bonus and free spins rounds are played out these days are too elaborate to be anything other than a sound and light show for a pre-determined result IMO.

I think Chopley agrees with me in a way. I am saying they DO work like this:
Press=rng value+video = rng value. In other words, you press, instantly get a value for that stake and the second stage is a visual representation of reels equating to that rng value. It really is that simple. You don't even need a bloody set of reels for Christ's sake! You could just stake say 60p, and have a black screen in which a value then scrolls across or appears i.e. 0.00 press again 4.50 and so-on.
The reels/features/freespins are only there to alleviate the boredom in which you are really indulging - picking an electronic ball with a value from an electronic bag of balls. There would be no market for it without the enticement of videos. Reels are irrelevant on all online slots, and most mechanical ones. Anyone who think the reels all spin independently and randomly stop to make/not make a win is in need of serious psychiatric assistance. THE WIN IS ALREADY SELECTED BEFORE THE REELS EVEN MOVE!
I reiterate - you are selecting a random value when pressing start, which then triggers a reel video from a library of possibilities to give that specific award. Shitstorm on TSII is simply a different video which can EITHER pay a win value you could normally attain the same on the reels, OR one which is only possible via shitstorm.
Freespins are separate, but probably using a differently-spread pot of values from standard spins.
And yes, as Choppers says, without wishing to trigger a shitstorm of my own, the slots do have an element of compensatory algorithms. That's why players' variance levels out, and keeps players coming back.

 

[Balthazar]

The only software I can imagine working like that now is clunky old stuff like RTG.

Since we've

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a screenshot of the RTG "set the bonus RTP" software, it's safe to assume that they don't work like that either. I'm having a hard time to believe that when the software operator sets the Real-Series Slots RTP for a particular coupon code, all the reels on the slots automatically change to meet that new RTP and then go back to normal when the WR is met. Could you imagine the kind of programming it would require to do that? Say the guy sets the RTP to something random like 92.8% for a coupon, then the reels on all slots would have to change to reflect this specific RTP, only for this user, only for the WR?

the slots do have an element of compensatory algorithms.

No they don't. The RNG do not "remember" the previous spins and there's no "payout algorithms".

 

[dunover]

Since we've

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a screenshot of the RTG "set the bonus RTP" software, it's safe to assume that they don't work like that either. I'm having a hard time to believe that when the software operator sets the Real-Series Slots RTP for a particular coupon code, all the reels on the slots automatically change to meet that new RTP and then go back to normal when the WR is met. Could you imagine the kind of programming it would require to do that? Say the guy sets the RTP to something random like 92.8% for a coupon, then the reels on all slots would have to change to reflect this specific RTP, only for this user, only for the WR?




No they don't. The RNG do not "remember" the previous spins and there's no "payout algorithms".

The rng, my friend, doesn't have to remember the previous spins to do this - all you need to do is have more than one electronic bag of balls so-to-speak, if certain wins are paid, for the RNG to pick from. Why do you think that there's thus far never been a reported incident of say getting jackpot on BDBA on 2 consecutive spins (pick any other slot and substitute.) Of all the billions of spins even just confined to the membership of CM, events of consecutive jackpotting would've occurred by now and we would have heard of them. We would've had incidents of people depositing say 25 pounds and building it up to 2 million, or people depositing huge sums over a certain period and never hitting certain wins. As we all know, the slots produce a rollercoaster effect if you place the payouts over a straight line, all the time. This could not be done without an algorithm. Algorithms and rng's can easily be made to work together so thay can truthfully advertise 'randomness' but produce a result within certain parameters. And by this I don't just mean that if costs 1,000 to empty the bag of balls and they total 961, you set the RTP at 96.1%.

 

[zap987]

I think Chopley agrees with me in a way. I am saying they DO work like this:
Press=rng value+video = rng value. In other words, you press, instantly get a value for that stake and the second stage is a visual representation of reels equating to that rng value. It really is that simple. You don't even need a bloody set of reels for Christ's sake! You could just stake say 60p, and have a black screen in which a value then scrolls across or appears i.e. 0.00 press again 4.50 and so-on.
The reels/features/freespins are only there to alleviate the boredom in which you are really indulging - picking an electronic ball with a value from an electronic bag of balls. There would be no market for it without the enticement of videos. Reels are irrelevant on all online slots, and most mechanical ones. Anyone who think the reels all spin independently and randomly stop to make/not make a win is in need of serious psychiatric assistance. THE WIN IS ALREADY SELECTED BEFORE THE REELS EVEN MOVE!
I reiterate - you are selecting a random value when pressing start, which then triggers a reel video from a library of possibilities to give that specific award. Shitstorm on TSII is simply a different video which can EITHER pay a win value you could normally attain the same on the reels, OR one which is only possible via shitstorm.
Freespins are separate, but probably using a differently-spread pot of values from standard spins.
And yes, as Choppers says, without wishing to trigger a shitstorm of my own, the slots do have an element of compensatory algorithms. That's why players' variance levels out, and keeps players coming back.

So apparently I'm in need of serious psychiatric assistance because I believe in math and proof and not your conspiracy theories? Better get a solid tinfoil hat and get off the internet before the aliens/government/whatever gets to you.

 

[dunover]

Oh please, not wishing to get anyone heated on this festive day, but the video of the reels is purely that. Imagine shutting you eyes and keying in two numbers randomly on a video jukebox. The video you see is the one selected by choosing that number. Not quite as simple in slots, as you can get more than one reel-spin permutation video for the same value win. If you don't believe me, I can demonstrate it for you on MG or other downloaded software. Open your casino, play say IR or TSII. Wait until you get a 'bonus heartstopper' with the 2 scatters on reels 1&2. You know this win alone is one credit. It's two if you get the third scatter. When you get the first two quickly mouse over your balance. If it has gone up say 60p on a 60p play, you KNOW you are not going to see the third bonus scatter and get the freespins. If it has gone up 1,20 you know with confidence it's coming (unless it's one of those combos that along with the two scatters gives a symbol win of exactly one credit alongside it, i.e. 3 odin's) Trust me. It's fact. The proof's in the pudding, whatever you argue. The videos are just a visual representation of the paytable for that particular rng number. The reels as they spin have no bearing on the outcome which is pre-decided!
As you know, there are many combinations of say 10p (1/6 of a credit in my example) by getting 3 9's or 10's. Imagine a simple code whereby rng picks this silly 10p win. The video could be generated by any9/any9/any9/no wild reel4321/no 2 scatters. This would give hundreds of possible reel videos to represent exactly the same 10p win. There are 2 ways of doing it - firstly once rng selects the 10p win another pick selects randomly in tandem from a bank of videos all giving a 10p win, or secondly all the rn's have a link to a specific video permutation representing a 10p win.
It's all the variant video permutations which make the same win seem different, to maintain player interest. You can get 5 kings with one wild, = 3 lines of kings at base spin say 3x£4.50 at 60p play on TSII, yet next time you select a 3x£4.50 win it may give you a shitstorm with one reel of wilds on reel1 and then a king on reels2345 for exactly the same result.
Please accept the reels on videoslots are a result of a press of the rng amount selected via the start button, not the other way round!
zap987, you don't have any 'math or proof'; if you did you wouldn't possibly entertain the idea reels act independently to decide a win on videoslots. This is one area where we do know which came first of the chicken and egg.......

 

[zap987]

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has all the info you need. I don't think many people around here doubt that the Wizard knows his stuff.

Yes, on some versions of MG slots the balance gets updated before the spin animations finish. That has nothing to do with how the result is created, it doesn't take a computer very long to draw 5 random numbers and evaluate the result, at the time the server sends you the numbers any win is already calculated on the server and your balance updated. It's just bad programming from MG but doesn't change how slots work.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

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has all the info you need. I don't think many people around here doubt that the Wizard knows his stuff.

He knows his stuff in the field of maths but he extrapolates and/or people read stuff into what he's written that doesn't hold true IMO.

We're arguing semantics here to an extent because we all seem to agree that the games are random, we just disagree how the results are generated and/or displayed.

 

[Balthazar]

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has all the info you need. I don't think many people around here doubt that the Wizard knows his stuff.

Yes, on some versions of MG slots the balance gets updated before the spin animations finish. That has nothing to do with how the result is created, it doesn't take a computer very long to draw 5 random numbers and evaluate the result, at the time the server sends you the numbers any win is already calculated on the server and your balance updated. It's just bad programming from MG but doesn't change how slots work.

There's plenty of evidence that shows that it's not how it works, one of them was posted earlier in the thread with the RTG Super User screenshot. Think about the programming work that it would require to change all the reels on all the slots just to fit a specified bonus RTP; changing just 0.1% of the RTP would equal removing or adding symbols on the reels of all the slots just to fit that RTP. In the end, it would require a LOT of extra work/resources for absolutely nothing because you can easily get your RTP from the randomness of a single output from the RNG without having to mess with the animations.

 

[dunover]

There's plenty of evidence that shows that it's not how it works, one of them was posted earlier in the thread with the RTG Super User screenshot. Think about the programming work that it would require to change all the reels on all the slots just to fit a specified bonus RTP; changing just 0.1% of the RTP would equal removing or adding symbols on the reels of all the slots just to fit that RTP. In the end, it would require a LOT of extra work/resources for absolutely nothing because you can easily get your RTP from the randomness of a single output from the RNG without having to mess with the animations.

I'd tend to agree with this. I read the Wizard, who is hot on the figures but a little short of programming knowledge. He has gone off at a tangent when extrapolating his data as Chopley suggests. Firstly he mainly quotes electromechanical slots, older ones. Then, simply by analysing reel maps, goes from there to get his figures. He fails to say in his rather static fixed analysis how the percentage could be altered anything other than changing reel maps, yet we know the eProm can be programmed, probably by changing the weighting on a symbol in his example. He also theorizes about independent reels, where if you were programming a video slots there would be (as I've said in previous posts) absolutely no need to do this - the whole game could run fast and smooth off of one rng pick as opposed to 5 reels. He then talks about the pooled jackpot contribution and goes on to say that the percentage RTP minus this is around 80% or lower on some slots - if this were the case, they'd be virtually unplayable. We get pissed at anything less than 92% here, so either Americans are gullible when it comes to slots, or something is wrong. Remember in the UK how bad club fruits were when set at 80% or even less on the old MPU3 platform?
As for stating that 'myth some believe that the slot goes goes through a sequence over say 10,000 spins and repeats it when done' that is true obviously for modern rng videoslots, but that's almost exactly how some of the older low-tech bar-x typr machines were set up.
Great at crunching figures, but needs a better insight into programming and how slots play over a period.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Took a match offer at 32Red.

Played IR.

630 spins without a bonus round.

/sigh

 

[aceking123]

Took a match offer at 32Red.

Played IR.

630 spins without a bonus round.

/sigh

well if it makes you feel any better choppers i did the same thing )

 

[ChopleyIOM]

well if it makes you feel any better choppers i did the same thing )

Was it the 200% offer on a tenner?

 

[aceking123]

Was it the 200% offer on a tenner?

i made a deposit of 50 pounds it gave me 50% total 75 to play went like water.

 

[plasticnote]

my 3k went for 2 hours at mixed of 3 and 6 bet.

do not know what happened... just many dead spins...

 

[ecopac]

3k?! Real money or play?

 

[plasticnote]

3k?! Real money or play?

real $, i was planing for the week but all gone...

the worst session i had for some months... at the start of new year...

is mg going to tight up its slots...again?

 

[KasinoKing]

I think Chopley agrees with me in a way. I am saying they DO work like this:
Press=rng value+video = rng value. In other words, you press, instantly get a value for that stake and the second stage is a visual representation of reels equating to that rng value. It really is that simple. You don't even need a bloody set of reels for Christ's sake! You could just stake say 60p, and have a black screen in which a value then scrolls across or appears i.e. 0.00 press again 4.50 and so-on.
The reels/features/freespins are only there to alleviate the boredom in which you are really indulging - picking an electronic ball with a value from an electronic bag of balls. There would be no market for it without the enticement of videos. Reels are irrelevant on all online slots, and most mechanical ones. Anyone who think the reels all spin independently and randomly stop to make/not make a win is in need of serious psychiatric assistance. THE WIN IS ALREADY SELECTED BEFORE THE REELS EVEN MOVE!

I've missed this thread somehow for a few days - and it's nearly New Year's Hour!

But in the new year, when I get a bit of time, I will start a new thread with FACTS which support mine and Zap's version of how MOST online slots work and (maybe more importantly) call into doubt your (plural) version of the mechanics.
If, after viewing these facts you (plural) still insist that slots work how you discribe... well I don't know what I'll do - maybe make myself a tin-foil hat!

Happy New year!
KK

 

[smcinoz]

real $, i was planing for the week but all gone...

the worst session i had for some months... at the start of new year...

is mg going to tight up its slots...again?

New years slap to the face, im sure we will see a few hugs and kisses screenshots from you soon enough might be waiting until valentines day lol