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Grand Banks and Black Widow have ripped me off for alittle over $5,000

Discussion in 'Online Casino and Poker Complaints - old section' started by boatman, Feb 20, 2004.

    Feb 20, 2004
  1. boatman

    boatman Banned User

    i don't really want to right this case all over again, so below is what a sent bryan by pitch a bitch

    hi, i see that you dont do grand banks casino, but i really need help here, and there is no one else to turn to, i wish i would have checked this site before signing up. but i was told all playtech casinos are safe, and i even saw on the opa that they recommend all playtech casinos.anyways, grand banks has stolen 5,000 from me, money that will change my life if i can not get it back. they say that i had a similar betting pattern to another account so they have shut my account down. the betting system i use did come out of a book, so it is very possible someone else could be using the exact same thing, but i read over the casinos terms and there is nothing there that says your money can be taken if you use a betting system. i did hear on winnersonline that grand banks at one time said all money will be forfeited if you use a certain betting style. but these terms have now been taken off.is there anything you can do are betting systems really banned at most online casinos thanks for anything you can do.
  2. Feb 20, 2004
  3. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Does anyone here remember the fraudster "Crudebar"?

    I did a little write up on this pathetic dweeb here:

    To refreshen your memories a bit, this is the guy who tried to use his Grandfather's persona to scam Homebets.com, but this player was so stupid, when he sent a copy of his drivers license to the casino, and the one from his Grandfather (which was a copy of his, only the hair was made greyer) he forgot to change the signature.

    Sniffing glue causes brain damage, Ryan. Oh by the way, Boatman is Crudebar of you haven't caught my drift yet.

    Anyway, this complaint against Grand Banks and Black Widow is bogus. I contacted Playtech concerning this complaint since "Boatman" "Crudebar" whatever you want to call him stated that he used a system out of a book (and he couldn't remember what book it was). This was their response:

    (edited to protect player's public identity)

    The player came to our attention during routine review of a withdrawal request. He had been moved up in VIP class in both Grand Banks and Black Widow properties due to his deposit volumes. What caught the attention of our Financial Services team was his bonus driven game play and the account was under review as a case study in when and whether players moving through our VIP system might ever be moved down to VIP 1 status.

    At that time, an email was received that informed casino security that "Boatman" and a former player "Crudebar" (account #s) were one in the same.

    "Crudebar" has been a VIP 1 level designation since early 2001 and ceased playing in the casinos around August 2002. In looking at his account to see whether there was a co-relation between the two, the only current activity was a request by "Crudebar" that a FBF be sent to his email address in July of this year.

    Coincidentally, a completed FBF was received from "Boatman" the next day.

    Comparison has been made of the "Boatman" FBF and one that had been on file for "Crudebar". There are similarities in geographic location and handwriting and the telephone numbers are incorrect. Still there was nothing definitive to indicate any direct correlation and the decision was made to continue monitoring the activity on "Boatman's" account.

    The activity is standard - he makes a maximum deposit, conducts the minimum play-through to collect a bonus then withdrawals all. This type of activity makes him a prime candidate for our VIP 1 designation. Our Security Manager, did contact NETeller to determine whether the account information they had on "Boatman" was similar and had been qualified. While the account information had met all of NETeller's criteria - it was determined in that conversation that the "Boatman" NETeller account was being funded from a "Crudebar" NETeller account that was registered with the same phone number as the "Boatman" account.

    We deemed this to be a direct link between the parties and closed "Boatman's" account. NETeller closed both the Crudebar and the Boatman account on Friday though they have since re-opened the "Boatman" account. A phone call was placed to the cell number listed on "Boatman's account. Crudebar was requested and the responder replied in the affirmative.

    The decision to close the Boatman account was based upon the collusive nature between the two accounts and the phone call to one being answered by the other. It was not because the player was 'winning too much' though his game play did indicate unfavorable activity and he was being considered for a player class adjustment. We have informed Boatman that his deposits will be returned to him.

    So Boatman is Crudebar - a scammer and a lying piece of crap.

    It's slightly my fault, since Boatman slipped through my radar. I usually keep a pretty good tab on things. I do have supporting evidence though. Boatman uses the same email address that was identified during the Homebet's scam.

    I take no shit from scammers; they are an incredible waste of time and resources. If you have a pending "Pitch a Bitch" that I haven't gotten to yet, you can thank assholes like Crudebar for that.

    Attention Crudebar and other fraudsters: if you use my services fraudulently, I will notify and warn every casino operator I know with your personal details. And believe you me, I know a lot of them.

    If you don't like that, tough shit.
  4. Feb 21, 2004
  5. dirk_dangerous

    dirk_dangerous Dormant account

    Our Security Manager, did contact NETeller to determine whether the account information they had on "Boatman" was similar and had been qualified. While the account information had met all of NETeller's criteria - it was determined in that conversation that the "Boatman" NETeller account was being funded from a "Crudebar" NETeller account that was registered with the same phone number as the "Boatman" account.

    Ah, danger Will Robinson. Why is Neteller sharing personal player information with an online casino? Am I the only one who is very concerned about this? I understand the need for online casinos to deal with fraud, but I don't care for Neteller's role as private dective for the online casinos.

    I'm sorry, but something is very wrong here. I plan on lodging a complaint with Neteller and if this issue isn't addressed, I will make it my goal to expose this activity to as many online gamblers as possible.

    Privacy isn't something to screw around with, and this activity is over the line.
  6. Feb 21, 2004
  7. cipher

    cipher Banned member - being a jerk

    Bryan, I can clearly see you're point in wanting to absolutely "KEEL HAUL" this individual. But I can't understand for the life of me how you could even think for a minute that the Casino's behavior wherein Neteller is concerned here is even close to being ethical. Say it ain't so.
  8. Feb 21, 2004
  9. dirk_dangerous

    dirk_dangerous Dormant account

    I agree; two wrongs don't make a right. BW and GB have no business knowing that Neteller Customer A is receiving funds from Customer B.

    That information should be for Neteller only.

    Again, I understand the need to control fraud, but what's next? Is Neteller going to start sending out monthly report of all customer activity to online casinos? What's to stop Neteller from sharing our SS numbers, our CC numbers and our bank account numbers with the online casinos?

    And please don't tell me I'm overreacting. When it comes to privacy, it's impossible to overreact.

    Personally, I getting sick of all this nonsense. Does anyone know if there is a Canadian regulatory authority that could look into this?
  10. Feb 22, 2004
  11. boatman

    boatman Banned User

    for one. i can say i am not crudebar. do i know him? i sure do. did he said money to my neteller account? yep he did.

    neteller makes sure you are who you say you are before you can even open an account. getting a ss# checking to make sure that # matches with your name, and even calling you, and making you open a bank account in the name of the owner of the accont. how grand banks can say the phone number does not work i don't no. or even saying my phone number matches that of crudebars is wrong, as neteller makes sure info. is not used twice.

    grand banks did call neteller and they dd shut down my account. i called them, they asked for a license and a few other things, which i sent. and they re-opened the account.

    i told them what grand banks was doing, and neteller personally called grand banks to tell them i am who i said i was. neteller called me back, and said the best thing they can do is recover depsoits, as winnings is beyond their means. so this is the only reason the casino returned my depsoits.

    i can see why meister is mad, he even conned me into posting the first message, saying he would get my winnings back if i posted.

    meister i can send you what ever you want to prove my identity. grand banks is only keeping my money because crudebar sent money to my neteller.

    i never played off the same computer as crudebar. i sent them my id, fbf, all of which checked out. they are just keeping my money because of someone funding my account which is wrong.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2004
  12. Feb 22, 2004
  13. boatman

    boatman Banned User

    one last thing after reading over what grand banks said about the phone call.

    someone did call me, i guess they said grand banks promotions, but i thought they said cd promotions, so i hung up on them. i guess they took this as being admitting to be someone else.

    i never said one word to them over the call, they said hi, this is grand banks promotions(which i thought they said cd promotions) is there a mr. crudebar there( of course they really used crudebars real last name). i than hung up.

    i am sure grand banks tapes all phone calles, meister you could ask to hear this phone call, and you will see i never said a word.
  14. Feb 22, 2004
  15. portia

    portia Dormant account

    Dirk, Cipher :

    The bottom line is that Either Neteller members personal information is secure (ie not shared with Merchants) or it is not.

    If there was a reasonable competitor to Neteller this wouldn't happen.

    But we have got to start a new thread. It should be separated from crudebar. As anything this guy touches turns to dust.

    Players dont want a "Crudebar" as the posterboy for getting Neteller to take players privacy seriously.

    Merchants should be concerned here too. This is a slippery slope.
  16. Feb 22, 2004
  17. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    We're dealing with fraud. I'm sure Neteller protects their players as much as they protect their merchants. If a casino is suspecting fraud and begins an investigation, I believe that the cash provider conducts an investigation as well.

    Boatman is crudebar, there is no question about it, and I'm not going to get into this any further. He's caused me enough headaches and I can go on for a LONG time for the crap he's pulled. He's also been banned from this forum for life, but I'm sure he'll rear his fugly head somewhere else, or attempt to open another account here and start lambasting me with his crap.
  18. Feb 22, 2004
  19. portia

    portia Dormant account

    Bryan, i hope you are right that Neteller ensure that there employees protect the privacy of the players by stricly NOT providing info on the players.

    Money transfers between two players is not a fraud. If anyone believes that then Neteller allow member to member transfers. That is ridiculous. So why should a casino be informed of who transfered to whom?

    The casinos will have a field day not paying winners because a neteller employee says "oh, btw that player received/sent funds to another player".

    I have no doubt that Boatman is Crudebar. Unless Black Widow/Grand Banks made up the part about him answering the phone in the other accounts name. But i have some good reasonds to believe it.

    Crude bar has scammed naive players as well.
  20. Feb 22, 2004
  21. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Casino apologist
    Clearly Neteller do NOT protect their customers' privacy - the above quoted passage is sufficient evidence of that:

    "...it was determined in that conversation that the "Boatman" NETeller account was being funded from a "Crudebar" NETeller account that was registered with the same phone number as the "Boatman" account."

    Whether he's a fraudster or not, CONVIDENTIAL information should NEVER have been revealed to the casino. Neteller revealed it.

    This is a massive breach of player confidentiality, and one can only assume it's either the tip of the iceberg or the thin end of the wedge. How far will Neteller go in this breach of confidentiality? Will they in fact go as far as to allow direct access to their players' accounts at the request of merchants? What protection does the player have against this? I already know they accept transfers from players' accounts to merchants at the request of the merchant without the authorization of the player - this happened to me last year.

    Since Neteller is a BIG player in the casino funding business these matters of security breach need to be addressed; if not, customers will simply lose confidence in Neteller (mine is currently taking a beating) and stop using them - whether or not alternate funding methods are available. This will obviously affect the merchants' and therefore Neteller's bottom line.

    Neteller need to address this.
  22. Feb 24, 2004
  23. bonus_pirate

    bonus_pirate Dormant account

    If what I read about NETeller (Canadian company) releasing personal info. is true then they are in violation of Canada's Federal Privacy law, and can be sued accordingly.

  24. Feb 26, 2004
  25. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    One other item that should be addressed in this thread as well as the possible privacy issues, is where boatman says the following:

    "grand banks has stolen 5,000 from me, money that will change my life if i can not get it back."

    If losing $5000 is going to 'change your life', then you really have no business gambling, since you're obviously living too close to the edge of making ends meet. I've never lost that amount, and would feel truly awful if I did, but it wouldn't change my life certainly. It would be cause for concern to me and some belt tightening would be necessary, but wouldn't change my life much (except maybe going to GA for help). The converse is true too, winning $5000 (which I've been lucky enough to do twice), didn't change my life. I was able to buy a couple of fun but not needed items and put the rest in the bank.

    Now, if you're talking $50K, that could change your life (winning or losing), but $5k shouldn't. Stick to $10 worth of scratch tickets once a week and try to win something that way, or better yet, put the money you'd gamble with in a savings account or other investment and see how fast you can run it up to $5k.

    Of course Bryan has determined that boatman is a fraud anyway, so that statement can't be given any credibility to begin with. This was mostly hypothetical advice.
  26. Feb 26, 2004
  27. toofast4u

    toofast4u Dormant account

    I would say that $5k can put a pretty good pinch on your life, not everyone has thousands stashed away for a rainy day, and you know how easy it is to spend more than you are comfortable with especially sitting in the comfort of your home, this may not be the case but I do find it very irritating when I have money in 'limbo' out there when I have bills to pay.
  28. Feb 26, 2004
  29. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    It will help him feed the other thirty people he has living at his house who gamble online. :D
  30. Feb 26, 2004
  31. jpm

    jpm Dormant account

    I agree toofast, it can definately put a pinch in your life. But it shouldn't be life changing. I too find it irritating having money in limbo waiting for the cashin to process. He made it sound like he needed the money to live on, in which case he shouldn't be gambling with it.

    I kinda like the 'meister's theory above though! :lolup:

  32. Feb 27, 2004
  33. toofast4u

    toofast4u Dormant account

    so did they just keep his winnings or did they keep his deposit too?? This is not the case but I see lots of online casinos that seem to use this excuse a lot to keep players money. I can see if they forefit his winnings because he is a bonus abuser, but I cant see a legitamate reason to keep a deposit too.

    Anyways, its not like they would pay him ontime anyways. The management at black widow probably takes players money and gambles with it and only pays them if they win:rolleyes:

    Black Widow :machinegu

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