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Fortune Affiliates Retroactive Terms

Discussion in 'Affiliate Issues' started by dominique, Jul 14, 2005.

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    Jul 14, 2005
  1. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    Boy, I wish someone from Fortune Lounge would address the breach of contract Fortune Affiliates comitted with its affiliates.

    I guess affiliates should be seen but not heard.

    The changes in T&C are perfectly acceptable - it is your right to do so. Applying these changes to previously entered contracts is - well - in most places in this world it's a criminal act.

    Yet you do this to your affiliates without any type of consultation, communication or discussion.

    It is not a show of good character.
     
  2. Jul 14, 2005
  3. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    What Dom said. And I don't want to hear the flimsy excuse that Fortune Affiliates is a separate entity and losing money. And don't even mention the word "partner" in there until you are willing to admit that we were bent over and you are willing to address the problem.
     
  4. Jul 14, 2005
  5. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Y'know. I'm guilty of not remembering what this is all about. I know Simmo! and Spear explained this to me - but I live in Bierland - so I forgot :D

    How about spelling out exactly what was made retroactive and how FA addressed this issue. Didn't someone rag on them in Miami?
     
  6. Jul 14, 2005
  7. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    I've been away so might have missed it, but what did Fortune Affiliates do?
    Was this the philosophy in place when you decided upon a policy of simply removing the bonus funds from cash-ins if a player made the slightest error (say wagering $1 too little) instead of returning the cash-in to the casino balance for wagering to be completed, as all reputable casinos do? I think you might finally have abandoned the policy, but it was a very nasty (and no doubt lucrative) trick.
     
  8. Jul 14, 2005
  9. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    I will leave it to Fortune Lounge to spell out in very precise terms their relationship with Fortune Affiliates - and then let them describe what happened.

    But to put it in player terms, it is similar to promising you a bonus, later changing their terms and conditions and applying it to all your past play retroactively.

    I'd also like to ask Vegas Partner Lounge why they are also implementing this policy - at the same time - yet they deny being in concert.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2005
  10. Jul 14, 2005
  11. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    Well, we also have Partner Logic and Wager Junction jumping on board that train.

    I have thought long and hard about this - this industry does not need to increase it's stigma of being seedy and such. That is a bad image - and especially in the States we need to be sqeaky clean if we are ever going to achieve regulation. Which we will soon have a good chance of doing if we don't blow it.

    I just cannot sit still and watch this behavior - which is nothing short of criminal by any interpretation of the law.

    I propose Fortune et al. change these new imposed T&Cs to where they are not retroacive and therefor legal.

    I have always been one to support Fortune regarding all kinds of issues, for years. Just to make clear that I like the folks at Fortune Affiliates and definitely have no axe to grind.

    This recent development is just way out of line. And admit it - it hasn't helped your revenues one bit so far. You are losing some valuable affiliates - and you are surely not gaining any sympathies among players either.
     
  12. Jul 15, 2005
  13. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    I suppose Fortune has seen this by now and chose to ignore it.

    It would be real nice if you could comment...
     
  14. Jul 15, 2005
  15. fortunelounge

    fortunelounge I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    Operations Manager
    Location:
    South Africa
    Hi

    We have been in discussion with Fortune Affiliates regarding the postings of Dominique and Spear Master. We understand that Fortune Affiliates have already responded to similar posts on other bulletin boards. Fortune Affiliates regard this matter as having been tabled, discussed and resolved.

    We will continue to make use of this thread to reply to the original post by Adamruns.

    Regards,
    Jeremy
     
  16. Jul 15, 2005
  17. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    QUOTE: Fortune Affiliates regard this matter as having been tabled, discussed and resolved.UNQUOTE

    "Tabled, discussed and resolved?" Perhaps the word "unilaterally" should be inserted somewhere in there if the reports I have heard are correct.

    I don't work in the affiliate sector, but I am told by several people I respect who do that there was very little if any consultation here.

    The tone of that response suggests that Fortune Affiliates is entirely seperate from Fortune Lounge, which in terms of top management control I am not entirely certain is correct.
     
  18. Jul 15, 2005
  19. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    Yes, I am sure that's true. Tabled, discussed and resolved amongst each other.

    I did have the opportunity to speak with Fortune Affiliates in Miami. There was nothing really discussed - I was told that there was a monetary necessity for this, there was no other way. When I suggested that there may be ways to do this without cutting marketing, I was asked what I would suggest as an alternative. I would have been all too happy to make a suggestion, but since I had no facts and figures that wasn't possible.

    Regarding the legality of this - I got no reply. Because we all know what it is.

    Resolved? Hardly. I did file a complaint with the IGC about this. Perhaps the issue can still be tabled, discussed and resolved. I would be very interested in tabling, discussing and resolving it. I would like to be able to recommend Fortune Affiliates to other affiliates as I have done for so many years. I feel badly telling affiliates to stay away from Fortune because they do not honor their contracts. I feel like I am disloyal to a group of people I have grown to like over the years.

    I know that the folks at Fortune Affiliates are good people and they try to run a good program. They have made such enormous progress, have some of the best stats in the biz, and their support has been great.

    How disappointing to find them in a criminal act.

    Yes, I would very much love to resolve this. Until such a time, with a heavy heart, I have to caution: Stay away from Fortune. Fortune does not honor it's contracts.
     
  20. Jul 15, 2005
  21. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    Affy stuff ain't exactly my thing, but:

    Did they cut the commission, from, say, 30% to 20%, and apply it retrospectively, so you effectively have to "earn it back"?
     
  22. Jul 15, 2005
  23. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    That is truly nice to hear, adamruns. :)

    Now if only T&Cs with affiliates could also be taken as binding and sincere...

    No. It used to be that affiliates went to look at earning statistics at Fortune and see a mix of winning and losing players and it was a good thing to see. As aff, you want to see a nice mix, you want to see your players win.

    In this industry, "if the players ain't happy, ain't nobody happy."

    Since Fortune holds a lot of individual casinos, winnings and losses would be nicely spread out and affiliates could happily advertise all of the casinos, teach their players as much about winning as possible, watch a good percentage of them win, and still take home a paycheck. All was well.

    If a casino had a big winner the affiliate would not make money there in that month, but s/he would still be making money at other casinos. So - it's a small price to pay for having happy players return to your website and be happy and loyal with you.

    But no more. The rules were changed so that now if there is one big winner at one Fortune casino it wipes out all income from all casinos. The affiliate gets no paycheck that month at all.

    Perhaps it is not immediately visible how this affects players - but it does. Maybe not the sophisticated players who have discovered message boards that truly look out for them, but the majority of players who go through affiliate sites are now in a much worse position. Now the affiliate isn't all that interested anymore in teaching how to win - it's too costly. No one is going to lose all their income voluntarily. Affiliates who allow themselves to depend on Fortune will now fear for their livelihood and not encourage smart play.

    Good for the casinos, bad for players, bad for affiliates.
     
  24. Jul 15, 2005
  25. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    Jeremy -

    With all due respect, the stink is unbearable. Nothing was tabled or resolved, none of my recommendations - which were very reasonable by the way - were taken up, no changes or further announcements have been made, so I will simply assume that FA - and FL - choose to ignore the issue and hope it will go away.

    Let me put it very bluntly - it will not go away, and if a reasonable solution is not found, it will become a very, very big problem.
     
  26. Jul 15, 2005
  27. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    As an affiliate myself, it would be morally wrong for me to recommend a casino to players who I know cannot be trusted to hold an agreement. Plus it p*ss*s me off to think of the time and effort spent testing, researching and chatting to them (although it was a free pizza to be fair) in the first instance only to have them treat me this way :(

    Cheers

    Simmo!
     
  28. Jul 15, 2005
  29. Webzcas

    Webzcas Winter is Coming! Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Webmaster
    Location:
    Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
    I cannot believe the comment :

    Unfortunately it was not tabled, discussed and resolved with your partners - the affiliates. Time will obviously be the factor to see whether by making these changes you haven't actually fallen upon your own petard.

    The fact that you go back on an legal agreement with your affiliates without even consulting them beforehand, speaks volumes.
     
  30. Jul 17, 2005
  31. tim5ny

    tim5ny Quit Gambling

    Very doubtful Adamruns! Your problem got alot of exposure here, so they naturally have to put out the small fires before they become larger. Everyone else who's fending for himself probably hasn't had the same outcome as you. I'd bet my life on that.
     
  32. Jul 17, 2005
  33. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    I see that Jeremy has been and gone - and chosen to take the silent route.

    Needless to say - what they can do to affiliates, they can do to players. Regardless of what you see in the T&Cs, if they decide to change their mind, their decision is "final" even if you performed according to the rules.

    I will allow them another chance to address the issue - or else I will spell it out very clearly with a warning to all people who think that Fortune will perform according to the terms and conditions they themselves laid out.

    I further note that this is due in large part to affiliates who work their asses off to see that you get players, and that you take care of them.

    This "reputation" is about to be spoiled big-time if you do not take urgent action to redress the breach of your own terms and conditions and promises to affiliates who have faithfully served you in the past - and have also defended you in these forums. We did not set the rules - you did. We played by these rules - but you broke them.

    I urge you not to ignore this warning.
     
  34. Jul 17, 2005
  35. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    At this point all the action I have taken is to inform the IGC (and their lawyer who will handle this is back at work on Monday). I have not removed the casinos who are in breach from my Casino Webmaster Program page (which ranks #3 on Google). I did add my comments to the listing. Fortune wasn't listed, but I will update and add them asap, next week sometime.

    I did post about it in the announcement section there - You must register/login in order to see the link. and link to that from the webmaster page.

    Now, other than that I haven't taken any action because I still count on the basic honesty and business sense of Fortune. I hope that they will negotiate with the IGC if not with us affiliates. I will overlook being snubbed now and hope for this to be worked out between Fortune and the industry watchdog.

    But I will not hesitate to ask players for help if it comes to that. Affiliates have helped players get paid for years, I am sure players will give some of the support back when needed.
     
  36. Jul 17, 2005
  37. Bruce Hamilton

    Bruce Hamilton Dormant account

    Occupation:
    What's a job?
    Location:
    USA
    He took the same route with my beef re: Royal Vegas and their 100 Free Spins. :(
     
  38. Jul 18, 2005
  39. Webzcas

    Webzcas Winter is Coming! Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Webmaster
    Location:
    Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
    The fact that Fortune is ignoring us here and added to this we are being ignored on CAP by the FA members there, only reinforces my belief that they do not consider affiliates as partners.

    Therefore if we can be treated with a lack of respect by FA, what is there to say that the casinos and poker rooms which make up FA's portfolio won't start treating their players in the same way as they are now treating their partners/affiliates.
     
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