forgotlogin vs BitStarz

Casinomeister

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We had a data base burp and had to restore it from an earlier version :oops: Sorry about that :D
 
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mack341

Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2018
Location
south east england
the gist of my post was

1. was the complainant informed of the reason why his deposits and winnings were confiscated, i.e not the method of detection, but category, eg. identity fraud

2. have the deposits been returned to the bank/rightful owner of the card as they would have to be in a case of fraud?
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
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Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
the gist of my post was

1. was the complainant informed of the reason why his deposits and winnings were confiscated, i.e not the method of detection, but category, eg. identity fraud
2. have the deposits been returned to the bank/rightful owner of the card as they would have to be in a case of fraud?

You'll have to ask the casino, it's not part of the PAB mandate to police the casino's accounting practices.
 
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mack341

Senior Member
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Location
south east england
You'll have to ask the casino, it's not part of the PAB mandate to police the casino's management of player accounts.

yes but that seems rather crucial to the PAB decision outcome of 'fraud/crime', and also this hasn't answered the first question.

The guidance on the ukgc site for ADR, which while I accept this is not technically that, it is still a form of alternative resolution, and the underlying principles will be the same, states

"• Non-payment of winnings/account suspension due to issues related to fraud or crime, but not money laundering. We expect ADR providers to consider the dispute based on the gambling business’s actions and the available evidence from both parties. Relevant considerations could include whether there is an ongoing police or criminal investigation, or the suspicion has been reported to the authorities.

Providers should note that unless prevented from doing so by legislation (such as criminal, or linked to data protection), they must be prepared to share the evidence on which they base their decision with both parties to the dispute, as required by the ADR Regulations, Schedule 3, part 7 (Fairness)."

so the last part above goes one further on my first question re the nature of the complaint, so there should be plenty of leeway for you to actually say what the crime/fraud was, the area, e.g. somebody else's bank card was used etc.. there doesn't have to be any info on how the crime was detected.
 

Casinomeister

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the gist of my post was

1. was the complainant informed of the reason why his deposits and winnings were confiscated, i.e not the method of detection, but category, eg. identity fraud

2. have the deposits been returned to the bank/rightful owner of the card as they would have to be in a case of fraud?

You'll find that in many cases, the casinos won't refund deposits to fraudsters - especially when crimes are being committed. Times are changing now. It used to be that fraudsters moved from one casino to the next at warp speed, and casino operators were playing whack-a-mole with them. But since there is more oversight and compliance with regulatory bodies, fraudsters are now getting visits from their local police. Identity theft is a punishable crime in most parts of the world, and those who are doing this are getting wake up calls.

I am not referring specifically to this case, but in general.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
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... Providers should note that unless prevented from doing so by legislation (such as criminal, or linked to data protection), they must be prepared to share the evidence on which they base their decision with both parties to the dispute, as required by the ADR Regulations, Schedule 3, part 7 (Fairness)....

And that is precisely why we withdrew our application to be an ADR for the UKGC. I believe it also played a part in ThePogg returning his ADR credentials and withdrawing from the UKGC's ADR process but you should verify that with him to be certain. In our opinion such a policy is monumentally wrong-headed and a pointless aid to fraudsters. Not what we're about.

If the OP -- or anyone else for that matter -- has issues with how his deposits were handled he's welcome to take it to court.

For the case at hand our job was to determine the veracity of the OP's complaint and the fairness of the casino's judgement against him. That job has been done and my involvement with the issue ends there.
 
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mack341

Senior Member
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Location
south east england
And that is precisely why we withdrew our application to be an ADR. Such a policy is wrong-headed and an aid to fraudsters, not what we're about.

If the OP -- or anyone else for that matter -- has issues with how his deposits were handled he's welcome to take it to court.

For the case at hand our job was to determine the veracity of the OP's complaint and the fairness of the casino's judgement against him. That job has been done and my involvement with that issue ends there.

But you've missed the first point now, that the actions bitstarz have taken regarding the deposits is relevant to your decision, it's a question that needs to be resolved. In a case of fraud or crime the casino would definitely contact the bank from where the deposit was made, the issue has come up on the thread several times and the rep has replied to other points but not this most important of points.

The OP admitted he'd had a previous conviction for fraud, so he's on a sticky wicket from the off, however the casino in question also has a tarnished record as far as I understand

edit: and question 1 has also still not been answered, was the reason for confiscation of deposits and winnings given; and why can this not be shared with the forum as you normally do in PABs. to say he used fake id and somebody else's bank card does not help fraudsters do the same, actually the opposite it would be a deterrent to fraudsters as it mean bitstarz's detection methods were sound.
 
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mack341

Senior Member
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May 8, 2018
Location
south east england
@homerbert As you are reading and following the thread, can you just clear up 1 point, what is the casino/your group intending to do with the deposited funds taking into account Max has upheld your decision regarding crime/fraud?
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
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But you've missed the first point now ...

I'd say that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. However, I've said all I care to on this which included, I believe, responding your questions. I'm done here, full stop.
 
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mack341

Senior Member
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Location
south east england
I'd say that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. However, I've said all I care to on this including, I believe, answering your questions. I'm done here, full stop.

In my humble opinion the questions I raised haven't been answered, but as that is your last word on the topic there is no my point in me repeating them. Hopefully @homerbert can just confirm the destiny of the withheld deposited funds?
 

Casinomeister

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@mack341 Why do you care so much about this? Just wondering.
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
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well it just seems logical, I think some other members not just me are also curious as to what happened to the deposited funds, also as there is an active CM warning against this group I can't help but be sceptical of radio silence re this issue.

Maybe you can find an answer if you read Bitstarz T&C's. It should be covered there.
 

homerbert

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Jun 21, 2012
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NoWhere
Hey guys!

@mack341 I should not and do not want to confirm what happened with the funds. It is fraud case, PAB confirmed my words on first page, and I really do not want to discuss it further. And indeed it is strange that you keep asking this question.

I bet 99% users of this forum are not fraudsters, then their deposits will never be confiscated.

Br,

V.
 

Casinomeister

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It's up to the casino or its regulatory body on what to do with deposited funds. Like Max said, this has nothing to do with the PAB process, and if this guy feels he has a case to get them back (if he hasn't gotten them back) I am sure that any lawyer would take this up if he has a case here. I don't think he does. In fact, I would be on full Five-O alert if I were him.

Dealing with deposits of fraudsters is 100% different than with advantage players. People confuse the two - to include casino operators. In most cases, AP deposits are returned - fraudulent deposits are not or either confiscated by the bank (stolen credit cards, stolen ID etc.). Sometimes casinos take these funds and donate them to charity. I don't know what Bitstarz is planning to do - that is not within the scope of this PAB. A reminder to read the full terms and conditions of any casino for what happens to deposits under extraordinary circumstances.
 

Casinomeister

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Bummer for this dude:

  • 3.2.7
    It's the responsibility of the player to ensure that all documents as a part of the KYC process are genuine. Faked or fraudulent documents provided may result in a confiscation of deposits and potential winnings of the player.
 

mack341

Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2018
Location
south east england
Hey guys!

@mack341 I should not and do not want to confirm what happened with the funds. It is fraud case, PAB confirmed my words on first page, and I really do not want to discuss it further. And indeed it is strange that you keep asking this question.

I bet 99% users of this forum are not fraudsters, then their deposits will never be confiscated.

Br,

V.

I don't think it is strange, and I feel you're implying, [and happy to leave it hanging in the air] for asking this logical question, I must be some sort of nark for fraudsters, I just didn't see the harm in you answering that question. If a complaint thread which subsequently ends up as a PAB, has back and forth points made in it like this case, questions come up and it just seems odd this one must remain unanswered even though it could easily be dealt with. But if you don't wish to, then that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.
[Maybe I watched too much columbo growing up ! :oops: :(]
 

Casino12345

Full Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Location
Netherlands
Hey guys!

@mack341 I should not and do not want to confirm what happened with the funds. It is fraud case, PAB confirmed my words on first page, and I really do not want to discuss it further. And indeed it is strange that you keep asking this question.

I bet 99% users of this forum are not fraudsters, then their deposits will never be confiscated.

Br,

V.
Mwah, we all have seen the Banana Jones PAB which was highly remarkable, so I def get his questions.
 

CANADAMAN99

Dormant Account
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Location
Canada
I love bitstarz, best casino in the world even though I'm on a terrible awful losing streak there. I trust them 100% and have never had cashout issues.
 
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