Finsoft/Spielo G2 Games Issue

[aceking123]

It depends on what is being looked for. If a game is severely "rigged", it doesn't take much data to demonstrate it. Eliot is likely to reach an initial view, and then try his own tests to produce a view than he feels confident about putting his name to.

The data itself didn't seem that striking in terms of the frequencies, but the additional factor of the very clear split between the colours, with the colour NOT being the subject of the bet appearing more frequently at ALL it's possible values than ANY value associated with the colour being staked.

The rules suggest that this is a zero house edge game, so over the long term nobody wins. It also seems to have no element of skill. Lastly, it seems very BORING to play more than a few hands, as the biggest return is 12x bet.

I do not understand why a zero edge game would be offered given that the operator can make no money on it overall, unless it is along the lines of the Betfair "zero lounge", designed to keep players playing in the hope that they will play games with a house edge. The "zero lounge" games also have an element of skill, so Betfair DO make money every time a player deviates from perfect strategy.

For the above game to work for the operator, there would have to be some element of strategy involved in achieving the 100% RTP.

If instead the outcomes are simply weighted in order to create the desired house edge, then it is a case of misrepresentation on the rules page, as the outcomes would NOT be "random" in the true sense, and the RTP would not be 100%.

im not sure but its sounding like another b3 category machine same as most bookie machines theyre random per spin but can be compensated to meet the true rtp% & i also think near all machines on the internet use the same degree of fixing rigged or how ever you want to put it , there set but i think there 100% weighted to a given outcome.

 

[katie91]

Editor's note: this player opened an account at this casino using another person's identity, and misrepresented himself to the community and those who were trying to assist him. This does not negate the fact that there are serious issues with the software and how the regulatory commission and affected casinos are responding to this.

The reason why I enjoy playing this game is because it gives the player a good chance of winning. It is like playing roulette but with no 0 on the wheel. For me most casino games are pretty repetitive, it is the wins that I enjoy and I have had some really good winning streaks on this game at other casinos!

As for why the casino offers the games with 100% RTP, well I don't just play this game. I played other Hi Lo games and some slots in the casino which they get money from. A major reason for joining Betfred was to play this game with a good paytable. If they want to offer a lower RTP then that's fine but they should do it in a clear way like Bet365 by lowering the paytable, they should not do it with some non-random rigging of outcomes.

As for the following:

Another case of check the casino , check the License and check the software provider.

Betfred are a huge UK bookie and are accredited here on Casinomeister. I am still shocked that this could happen and I can only believe it is an accident. They are licensed in Gibraltar, the same place as among others 32Red, Coral and Bet 365.

I have also had a look at the website for the software provider "Realistic Games" and it says they are licensed and regulated by the UK Gambling Commission. I have been reading up on the requirements for software providers under the technical standards and they are surprisingly thorough:

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. I believe that many of these have been broken in this case but will wait for Eliot to finish his investigation.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The reason why I enjoy playing this game is because it gives the player a good chance of winning. It is like playing roulette but with no 0 on the wheel. For me most casino games are pretty repetitive, it is the wins that I enjoy and I have had some really good winning streaks on this game at other casinos!

As for why the casino offers the games with 100% RTP, well I don't just play this game. I played other Hi Lo games and some slots in the casino which they get money from. A major reason for joining Betfred was to play this game with a good paytable. If they want to offer a lower RTP then that's fine but they should do it in a clear way like Bet365 by lowering the paytable, they should not do it with some non-random rigging of outcomes.

As for the following:



Betfred are a huge UK bookie and are accredited here on Casinomeister. I am still shocked that this could happen and I can only believe it is an accident. They are licensed in Gibraltar, the same place as among others 32Red, Coral and Bet 365.

I have also had a look at the website for the software provider "Realistic Games" and it says they are licensed and regulated by the UK Gambling Commission. I have been reading up on the requirements for software providers under the technical standards and they are surprisingly thorough:

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. I believe that many of these have been broken in this case but will wait for Eliot to finish his investigation.

This is what we need. If there is something going on Eliot will unearth it, and if he does find something, it is not going to be possible for the game supplier to dodge the issue.

The game is advertised as "true odds", so if it turns out to be compensated after all, it will be a breach of the rules regarding the provision of clear information to the player that a game is compensated. The b3 category machines are required to display a notice to warn players that they are compensated to meet a set RTP, and that "true odds" do not necessarily apply to any given bet.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The b3 category machines are required to display a notice to warn players that they are compensated to meet a set RTP, and that "true odds" do not necessarily apply to any given bet.

B3s are random.

Cat C is the compensated AWP.

Not relevant here though, I realise that!

 

[vinylweatherman]

B3s are random.

Cat C is the compensated AWP.

Not relevant here though, I realise that!

It's what I get for taking a lead from another post.

These categories don't seem clear to the player. I suspect they are not meant to, and reflect taxation classes (B or C) rather than the nature of the games. I thought "fruities" were now Cat D

 

[aceking123]

pub fruitys are band c which we all know is wieghted 100% , b3 can be weighted to near pefect rtp% . meaning there not truely random read between the ines on that one bookies & bingo halls & next big one which seems the only truely random one is casino machines max jackpot £4k on max stake of £2 quid

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Update.

About an hour ago I sent an e-mail to the top officers at Realistic Games laying out some of the evidence and have asked for their response. I don't want to state any conclusions at this time and can't contribute to this thread in any meaningful way yet. I ask that no one here jump to conclusions about any particular party involved. There may be a delay because many of the key people are on holiday.

Thanks.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Update.

My understanding of "Reel Deal" is that it is advertised a fair game, with RTP = 100%. In this case, Red (R) and Black (B) should be equally likely, as should any sequence of R & B.

I conducted a "correlation" test on the data provided by Katie91. First, I took the raw log file and sorted it chronologically. Then I considered all sequences of five consecutive games. In each game, either a R or B card was drawn. A fair game would give a roughly equal distribution for each of the 32 sequences BBBBB, BBBBR, BBBRB, ... RRRRR. Altogether, there were 19352 such sequences. It is worth noting, in looking at this data, that Katie91 wagered on Red over 19197 times.

The following table tabulates the data for chronological sequences of five consecutive games:



The p-value for this distribution is 0.000000000000000000000000954. The frequency of a distribution with this skew or more is about 1-in-1048712149670420000000000.

To put this in perspective, this is about the same as being dealt four consecutive pat Royal Flushes at five-card stud poker.

I have still not heard back from Realistic Games, Limited. I urge them to reply to this matter as soon as possible to offer an explanation for this and other statistical tests that show similar abnormalities. I sent an e-mail to three officers at Realistic Games. If I don't hear from Realistic Games by January 7, I will assume they will not be responding.

See www.realisticgames.com

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Thank you for that Eliot, as ever your input in these matters is both appreciated and enlightening.

So in summary, the game cheats, what chance now that we're told it's a 'technical error', that Betfred are very sorry, and that it won't happen again?

Maybe Betfred will give katie a Jaguar to say sorry?

 

[threescatters]

The p-value for this distribution is 0.000000000000000000000000954. The frequency of a distribution with this skew or more is about 1-in-1048712149670420000000000.

To put this in perspective, this is about the same as being dealt four consecutive pat Royal Flushes at five-card stud poker.

Thanks for the update Eliot, I think a lot of people here were awaiting this.

So it is conclusively rigged. I am not about to pass judgement on who DESIGNED the game this way (that could have been anyone in the parties involved), however this is damming evidence.

What IS true for sure is that whatever is on www.betfred.com is betfreds responsibility. They are in CLEAR breach of regulations from gibraltar seen here

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.

Not only that they are obviously in breach of accredited casino standards and have lied about "game fairness" in the past. I cannot be the only one who thinks this is outright damming rogue behaviour.

There is no excuse for this. I cannot buy anyone saying this is a "mistake" (although it would be unfair to point fingers guessing who ordered the game to be this way). This is too glaring and obvious an error to be a mistake. Even the most simple testing "is the game fair" would have shown this much bias. If the game passed fairness tests like this then we are dealing with incompetants.

I would suggest nobody is to give this lot their money again and anyone who played the affected games to contact gibraltar directly with links to this thread.

Is the game fair on the other websites it is on? That is an interesting question imo and might shed more light on who wanted the game this way on betfred.

 

[Westland Bowl]

Update.

My understanding of "Reel Deal" is that it is advertised a fair game, with RTP = 100%. In this case, Red (R) and Black (B) should be equally likely, as should any sequence of R & B.........

To put this in perspective, this is about the same as being dealt four consecutive pat Royal Flushes at five-card stud poker.

I have still not heard back from Realistic Games, Limited. I urge them to reply to this matter as soon as possible to offer an explanation for this and other statistical tests that show similar abnormalities. I sent an e-mail to three officers at Realistic Games. If I don't hear from Realistic Games by January 7, I will assume they will not be responding.

See www.realisticgames.com

Perhaps Realistic Games should change their name as it does not appear to be..... realistic!

I'm interested to know if the OP did flat betting or used a betting strategy such as progression one? In my experience, funny things happen when I start using a progression betting strategy in blackjack at online casinos.

By the way, the Realistic Games website is really just a placeholder with their address on it and nothing else. Kinda bit shady when the website provides not further information about them and their games.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Here is the information I found on Realistic Games from a search using www.duedil.com

Company Number: 04392971
Company Type: Private limited with Share Capital
SIC Code: 7221, Software Publishing
Inc. Date: 12 Mar 2002

Registered Address
Unit 106 Boston House
Grove Technology Park
Wantage
Oxfordshire
OX12 9FF
United Kingdom

Trading Address
Boston House
Grove Technology Park
Downsview Road
Wantage, Oxfordshire
OX12 9FF

About Realistic Games Limited
Realistic Games Limited was founded on 12 Mar 2002 and has its registered office in Oxfordshire. The organisation's status is active, and they have 5 associated directors - 2 are current, and 3 are former. There are 3 shareholders of the company. The company has no known group companies. The business has total assets of £138,433 plus total liabilities of £1,074,034. They are due to pay £143,127 to creditors and are owed back £66,983 from trade debtors. As of their last financial statement, they had £8,170 in cash reserves. The company's current book value is £-935,601, and the value of their shareholders' fund is £-935,601.

 

[Pulver]

Pretty damning evidence...

Sure will be interesting to hear what Betfred got to say about this. In my eyes this is outright theft.

 

[Balthazar]

I wonder if/when they will make a public statement. Is the game still available? I've no account there.

 

[dunover]

The most obvious indicator that the software is weighted and cannot possibly be at 100.00 is the first and last BBBBB and RRRRRR sequences. These 2 show the biggest fluctuation from the random correlation factor in the table.
I think we've got to be objective here - there could be a simple mistake at the site in the labelling of the game, at 100% or totally random or however they advertised it on their page, and the intent of Realistic themselves, who have obviously provided a RTP-set game here in the 90's which may be an allowable product but either missold to the site or the wrong version supplied.

 

[mn001]

I don't understand why a company wait so long on responding to something like this. It's putting the entire company at risk. Everyone in leading position should have their vacation cancelled and called in immediately if I ran the company.

 

[Betfred]

Hi all,

Firstly, apologies for the delay in joining this thread, we wanted to do some basic research for ourselves before posting, and have engaged with Eliot and the supplier in question. The investigation is by no means complete.

Betfred Games takes its commitments to players very seriously and any suggestion that one of our suppliers has provided a game with a fault or, indeed, misrepresented a game will be thoroughly investigated. We largely follow the supplier’s guidelines on operating and promoting games on the back of them being audited for fairness and accuracy by 3rd parties first.

We will openly work with Eliot (as we have in the past) and Realistic Games (via our relationship with Finsoft) to ascertain the truth, and will take measured and appropriate action depending on the outcome.

In the meantime we will be removing the game, but let me stress that all data requested will be made available to all relevant parties.

I hope to post again soon with more.

Kind regards,

Aaron
Betfred

 

[Balthazar]

Would Realistic Games benefit from a rigged game?

 

[dunover]

I wouldn't say it was rigged as such, but certainly didn't operate according to the criteria advertised and expected by an operation like Betfred. The game could be legitimate, just one more appropriate and designed for sites that may advertise it as a compensated or say '94.3% RTP' game. The game program and how it was advertised are the clear issues in conflict here. At least they've pulled it, and the benefit of this forum is that firstly it has the calibre of poster who can audit and spot these discrepancies and secondly via communication with accredited sites can get the issue resolved. An interesting one.

 

[mn001]

Would Realistic Games benefit from a rigged game?

Depends on the contract with the casino. If it's percentage of profit they will benefit.

 

[katie91]

Just got this email from Betfred. I'm guessing it's not related to the investigation, I just found the timing quite funny.

Hi Katie,

I'm from the VIP Team here at Betfred and this email is just to let you know that we have made you a full VIP player.

This means that we'll be regularly reviewing your account for potential bonuses, rewards and even upgrades in some areas of the site such as Casino.

Also if you have a large win we can get your withdrawals fast-tracked during the week so they get to you even sooner!

We would like to say welcome to VIP from the team here and should you have any issues please do not hesitate to get in touch.

All the best,

David J

Betfred VIP Team

As far as the advertised RTP goes, if they want to set a different RTP this should be done by adjusting the payouts for red/black (e.g. from 2x to 1.9x) not by making the results non-random. It is listed as a Hi-Lo game which means that each number/card should have an equal chance of coming up regardless of the bet placed by the player. I have never seen a Hi Lo game where this is not the case (in some cases the game is dealt from an actual deck so the same card can't come up again but that isn't the case here). There is actually no way that a fair game with even money payouts on red/black could ever pay anything apart from 100%.

I think maybe it's not the type of game some people would normally play but to put it in the same terms for a more common game - if you were playing Roulette it would be like saying it is OK for the casino to take an extra 4% from the game with a non-random wheel as long as it's listed somewhere in their help files. How many players would actually dig around the help files to check the RTP on every casino every time they play roulette?

I'm sure that this is not the standard Betfred would deliberately set on their casino. I will wait for the results of the investigation but if it shows that they have been misled by the supplier then I would ask that they refund my losses and I will drop any complaints against Betfred. Otherwise I will be forced to take this up with the Gibraltar Gambling Commission.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Greetings,

I want to restate my opinion that no conclusions about any particular party should be made yet. The only conclusion I can make with near certainty is that the game Reel Deal does not behave consistently with the help file associated with it. I would ask for patience until a response from Realistic Games is given.

This situation reminds me of the issue with BLR about 2 years ago.

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

BLR had their software placed at 5Dimes and other casinos. Their craps game was determined to be gaffed. The top casinos (e.g. 5Dimes) immediately removed the software and have not suffered any ongoing ill-will because of it. Betfred did exactly the right thing here.

Best,

Eliot

 

[Jasminebed]

I'd like to thank the OP for remaining calm, and presenting her evidence in such a coherent manner.

I do hope Betfred will review her game logs and make appropriate compensation, and they should do the same for other players of this game.

Dr Jacobson, your expertise is invaluable and appreciated.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

BLR had their software placed at 5Dimes and other casinos. Their craps game was determined to be gaffed. The top casinos (e.g. 5Dimes) immediately removed the software and have not suffered any ongoing ill-will because of it. Betfred did exactly the right thing here.

With all due respect Eliot, I think folks may wish to make up their own minds as to how they feel about a casino found to be running rogue software.

This is part of the problem I have with casinos who run a 'pot pourri' of softwares, if one of them is found to be dodgy they can just remove the offending article, blame the supplier, and wash their hands of it.

Personal taste perhaps, but I prefer 'trueblood' casinos who stick to one software. 32Red = MG. RedBet = NetEnt. Jackpot Party = WMS. Pinnacle = Galewind. And so on.

(Yes I know RedBet also have MG in there but they're covered by virtue of being such a big software supplier.)

Even if this game is found to be rogue, and Betfred chuck it off their books and anything else from that provider, they've basically given themselves plausible deniability by not being attached to the software, despite using their major branding draw to attract players in the first instance.

I prefer to play at casinos that have a bit more to lose when they're found to be running rogue software.

 

[dionysus]

With all due respect Eliot, I think folks may wish to make up their own minds as to how they feel about a casino found to be running rogue software.

This is part of the problem I have with casinos who run a 'pot pourri' of softwares, if one of them is found to be dodgy they can just remove the offending article, blame the supplier, and wash their hands of it.

Personal taste perhaps, but I prefer 'trueblood' casinos who stick to one software. 32Red = MG. RedBet = NetEnt. Jackpot Party = WMS. Pinnacle = Galewind. And so on.

(Yes I know RedBet also have MG in there but they're covered by virtue of being such a big software supplier.)

Even if this game is found to be rogue, and Betfred chuck it off their books and anything else from that provider, they've basically given themselves plausible deniability by not being attached to the software, despite using their major branding draw to attract players in the first instance.

I prefer to play at casinos that have a bit more to lose when they're found to be running rogue software.

I think 'trueblood' is going the way of the dodo. Redbet is adding BetSoft and already has MG.. 32Red has quickfire. In a competitive market, single skew casinos (IMO) are going to become things of the past.