cyprean VS CBMsport.com

[gpitileac]

Okay, honestly - I am not going to have the time it's going to take to go over this effectively. I am on the way out for a couple of weeks on family business, so I would recommend that Cyprean submits a PAB and Max will have ample time to look at this closely.

@ Cyprean - please read the PAB FAQs and submit the form. Thanks!
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/pab-rules/

@ gpitileac - I'll forward what I have to Maxd

Hi ,

Thank you very much .

I will wait for Max's answer regarding this issue .

Furthermore as mentioned i will no longer comment on this post until CasinoMeister administrators will give their opinion .

Regarding the player , it's the players decision to accept / refuse the Bonus . ( one last time i mention , that the bonus offered is not a Baite/compensation . It's just a sign of good will giving him the opportunity to start over .

I wish you a good holiday with your family .

Best Regards

Gabi Pitileac

 

[maxd]

Okay, PAB received. I'll get to it first thing Monday morning.

I would appreciate it if everyone involved would respect the PAB guidelines spelled out in the FAQ, namely no discussions of the case details here on the forums until the PAB has run it's course. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[maxd]

Okay, the PAB is pretty much done, just waiting for final comments from the OP before making it official.

FTR the OP has been banned for 2 weeks for making threats against the casino in his early communications with them, multiple violations of Forum Rule 1.17

UPDATE: the OP has gone silent so I thought I'd make a few closing remarks and then move on to other things.

The bottom line AFAIC is that the OP made repeated threats against the casino using Casinomeister's forums as blackmail. This alone would normally get the OP kicked off of Casinomeister (for life) and the PAB tossed out along with him.

There are two reasons that didn't happen:

1. the OP has been around CM for a long time and I thought he deserved a bit of slack.
2. the casino Support person did screw up and not in a small way. That needed to be factored in to the OP's situation.

In cases like this -- both parties at fault -- I prefer an abrupt cease-fire and resolution. As such I proposed a solution to the casino, they agreed and the settlement (deposit + % of the disputed winnings) was placed in the OP's account for him to do with as he saw fit, including full and immediate withdrawal if he wished. That was the last I heard from the OP. Fair enough I guess, case closed.

Lastly, I'm changing the title of this thread to reflect the fact that this one was a draw: both parties were at fault. The OP's original title -- "CBMsport.com tells me I can withdraw, but removes my 'expired' balance" for those that care -- was unreasonably bias and it would have been unfair to the casino to let it stand as it was.

 

[maxd]

The OP has since contacted me via email, says he DOES NOT accept the settlement. I've told him that's his choice but I'm done with the case nevertheless. IMO he's lucky to get what was on offer: under normal circumstances I would have simply tossed him to the curb -- for the blackmail threats -- and his PAB along with him.

 

[lnspin]

So casino makes a mistake and they can settle

Player makes a mistake and loses all his money

Seems fair

In honesty if i was the OP i would have taken the $$ as this clip joint isnt going to give him anything now.

 

[maxd]

Player makes a mistake and loses all his money

No, player makes multiple threats against the casino in direct violation of our Forum Rules and that factors into the PAB in a big way. Here it means he was asked to settle for a fraction of the money HE MIGHT HAVE WON if he had finished his WR, which he did not.

As I've said, if this had been someone other than a long-time Casinomeister member I would have tossed him and his PAB to the curb without hesitation. AFAIC I'm giving the guy a MAJOR break by not doing that, taking his PAB seriously and going for a settlement I think is fair under the circumstances.

If he hadn't make the threats I probably would have pressed the casino for a full restoration of his balance, etc, etc. Ignore the Forum Rules and expect pain, simple as that.

FYI your statement stinks of troll to me: you are intentionally ignoring the facts in order to distort them. Repeat it and I'll respond accordingly, per the Forum Rules of course.

 

[lnspin]

No, player makes multiple threats against the casino in direct violation of our Forum Rules and that factors into the PAB in a big way. Here it means he was asked to settle for a fraction of the money HE MIGHT HAVE WON if he had finished his WR, which he did not.

As I've said, if this had been someone other than a long-time Casinomeister member I would have tossed him and his PAB to the curb without hesitation. AFAIC I'm giving the guy a MAJOR break by not doing that, taking his PAB seriously and going for a settlement I think is fair under the circumstances.

If he hadn't make the threats I probably would have pressed the casino for a full restoration of his balance, etc, etc. Ignore the Forum Rules and expect pain, simple as that.

FYI your statement stinks of troll to me: you are intentionally ignoring the facts in order to distort them. Repeat it and I'll respond accordingly, per the Forum Rules of course.

Max, What do threats have to do with what is right and wrong? So just cause someone gets hot headed means they automatically lose? So you could be 100% right, but get hot headed and that makes you wrong.

And PS not a troll post, but if you must respond accordingly then do so

 

[Cleveland]

Max, What do threats have to do with what is right and wrong? So just cause someone gets hot headed means they automatically lose? So you could be 100% right, but get hot headed and that makes you wrong.

And PS not a troll post, but if you must respond accordingly then do so

It's a condition of being a member here. Max or anyone else here has no obligation to help any players. They set up their rules, and we agree to follow them as member of the forum. The OP as I mention right from the start of this mess, is a long time member and as such is expected to know the rules, or at least the big ones. If they tell you to contact barney and friends prior to submitting a PAB, then that's what you do. As Max said the OP should be kicked out of here per the rules but isn't. (added the but isn't part, as I don't want the OP kicked out etc etc).

The PAB processes should have been started from the word go, even after I pointed that fact out on page one, the OP continued to engage the rep. That tells me he is using the forum to put pressure on the casino. That goes against the PAB process. If he PABs and wins, yet the casino decides not to do right by the player, then you come here, and of course casinomeister will handle accordingly.

I've bad mouthed casino's but I had no intention of PABing, nor did I think the issue was PAB worthy, so yes in that case it's ok just to inform players. This was not the case here.

Threats always muddy the waters. It's one more hurdle that Max or whoever has to climb over / sort out. Casino's are expected to adhere to the PAB process, and expect this forum to make sure the players do as well. Just as certain behaviors scream rogue casino, certain behaviors by players scream fraud player. Clearly the OP isn't a fraud, but when you start using casinomesiter as a threat against a casino it's bad form, which is what many frauds do to strong arm the casino into paying. They know some casino's don't want the bad publicity, even if the casino is in the right, it will scare some players away, as it can take a bit of time to sort through the matter.

 

[maxd]

Max, What do threats have to do with what is right and wrong?

Everything! Whatever the casino may or may not have done the OP using Casinomeister to blackmail the casino is wrong, full stop.

As I saw it from the evidence available -- both from the OP and the casino -- the OP deliberately and repeatedly threatened to use Casinomeister's forums to damage the casino if the casino management did not do what the OP wanted. That is against the Posting Rules of the site to begin with, as Cleveland has already described. It is also a particularly offensive abuse of Casinomeister membership IMO because it undermines our position as a neutral party in dispute settlement. In other words it strikes at the very heart of what I do and I will not allow it.

No one should be permitted to use Casinomeister to blackmail anyone for anything, ever. I don't care what injustice they think has been done to them, it's not an option. If they choose to take matters into their own hands, ignoring the damage it can and will do to Casinomeister and the work I do, then I feel no hesitation whatsoever in bringing the full force of forum rules down upon them. If you don't like that then take it up with Bryan, it's not open for debate on the forums.

I understand that you think it was just "hot-headed" misjudgement but I (obviously) see it as being something else entirely. In the OP's case it was repeated on several occasions over a number of days and that makes it much more than just an off-the-cuff error in judgement. If the OP was only acting impetuously then he needs to learn more self-control, at least in matters concerning Casinomeister, and this would be the moment he's being required to do so. Whether he, or you, respect it he is being given a second chance here regarding his continued membership on the site. As I've said time and time again, under normal circumstances he would be history, end of story.

In this case I have tried to balance the OP's loyalty to Casinomeister, the gravity of their offense against Casinomeister, and the fault of the casino in handling the OP's situation. IMO the settlement offered was generous and since the OP is on "vacation" I have tried to be fair and balanced in reporting the case status here in the thread where the OP raised the issue. Again, if you don't like that then take it up with Bryan, it's not open for debate on the forums.

And you throwing your sarcastic, misguided and misinformed "opinion" into the mix is of no help whatsoever. If you disagreed with what went down you could say so: "I disagree because of ..." works very well for such things. Snide comments of scorn and derision are intentionally destructive to the site and just plain trollish. As stated they will be treated accordingly.

 

[Sovietsky]

Max I was wondering about the blackmail.

Let's say a casino don't want to pay me any winnings or they just do something rogue can I say to the casino that I will contact CM and also will write about it on CM, is that considered as blackmail?

 

[Sovietsky]

Max, What do threats have to do with what is right and wrong? So just cause someone gets hot headed means they automatically lose? So you could be 100% right, but get hot headed and that makes you wrong.

And PS not a troll post, but if you must respond accordingly then do so

There was a thread with a guy that behaved bad, he didn't get his winnings in a reasonable time or something and was just rude.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/classycoin-com-does-not-pay-the-money.56578/

However a good casino should pay him his winnings and then ban him.

 

[maxd]

... can I say to the casino that I will contact CM and also will write about it on CM ....

Why say anything? Just contact us and get the ball rolling for real.

Anyway, to answer your question, anything of the form "do ______ or I will _______ at Casinomeister" is blackmail, IMO. Such a thing is using us as a threat against the casino and will get you in the deep doo-doo when we find out about it.

... a good casino should pay him his winnings ....

THERE WERE NO WINNINGS! He never completed his WR, the bonus offer expired and the winnings were forfeit accordingly.

There's a lot that came before and after this but that's more or less beside the point.

 

[Sovietsky]

Why say anything? Just contact us and get the ball rolling for real.

Anyway, to answer your question, anything of the form "do ______ or I will _______ at Casinomeister" is blackmail, IMO. Such a thing is using us as a threat against the casino and will get you in the deep doo-doo when we find out about it.

Well let's say some casino screws me over and I make a PAB and you later found out that I was pissed and cursed at them, might adventure my PAB. Can you atleast understand a player when he get's screwed and he feel hopless?


[/QUOTE]THERE WERE NO WINNINGS! He never completed his WR, the bonus offer expired and the winnings were forfeit accordingly.

There's a lot that came before and after this but that's more or less beside the point.[/QUOTE]

I should have been more clear that it was about the russian guy and not the OP.

 

[Nifty29]

Well let's say some casino screws me over and I make a PAB and you later found out that I was pissed and cursed at them, might adventure my PAB. Can you atleast understand a player when he get's screwed and he feel hopless?

THERE WERE NO WINNINGS! He never completed his WR, the bonus offer expired and the winnings were forfeit accordingly.

There's a lot that came before and after this but that's more or less beside the point.[/QUOTE]

I should have been more clear that it was about the russian guy and not the OP.[/QUOTE]

TBH I think this is getting a little bit silly I.e. the whole "but what if I say xyz is that blackmail? How about abc?" thing.

Common sense dictates what is blackmailing and what is not. Its very simple....if you THREATEN the casino in ANY way by saying you'll post at CM if they don't do what you say, or that you'll use the services of CM to coerce them, then it is blackmail.

If you slag a casino off at CM, whilst it might not be blackmail if you don't threaten it first, it will affect the chances of you obtaining a resolution to your issue. If you go too far in your comments, you'll be subject to the usual posting rules regarding flaming.

I have NEVER seen a PAB tossed without VERY good reasons....and I say REASONS as it seldom comes down to one post or comment etc.

I'm not sure Max could have been any clearer. Continuing the "what if" or "poor OP" stuff borders on pot-stirring at best and trolling at worst IMO.

I don't understand why Inspin is taking this so personally...??

 

[skiny]

I fully understand Bryan not wanting people to use his website to blackmail or bully casinos. When proof is show that this has happened, I wouldn't blame him for washing his hands of the entire thing and refusing to help the player in question. It's his site and it's his right.

Putting that aside, even if this site didn't exist it doesn't change the fact that the casino made a mistake.

The player was given the impression that the wage requirement had been met and the money was no longer considered a bonus. Somebody noticed the error and it was realized that the wage requirement had not been met.

At this point what I think should have happened was the casino should have put the bonus on hold as a show of good faith since the error was theirs and not the player's. The player should have been contacted and told the wage requirement had not been fulfilled and the casino should have waited a reasonable amount of time for the player to reply to the casino as not everyone checks their emails every day. Once contact had been established between the casino and the player, an agreement should have been met for the player to come back and continue wagering where he left off. If the bonus was valid for one more day after he made his faulty withdrawal he should have been given back that day to finish wagering. His balance should have been unchanged, bonus or not.

I read in another thread today where a casino made a mistake and handed out a million dollar prize to the wrong person and corrected the mistake by handing out a second million dollar prize. That is the correct way to handle a situation. This was a bonus with a wage requirement attached to it and a relatively small amount of money. The casino could have handled this much better in my opinion.

I understand why this website and it's operators frown upon people using it to bully casinos. I don't understand how a casino can admit to making a mistake and then expect the player to suffer for it.

 

[Sovietsky]

text

I agree about the "what if X and Y" but I want to be clear on that.

Now I got the answer and in the future I will try to use the PM instead of getting offtopic.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If the OP hadn't made threats, Max says the likely outcome would be pressing the casino for a full restoration of the balance. If he ignored the threats and still pressed for this, it would be evident to others that there was no downside to trying threats and blackmail first, and then resorting to PAB if that failed.

Even informing a casino that you are going to raise the issue with Casinomeister can backfire as it gives them notice, and thus time to prepare their case. It's better to let a PAB take them by surprise, as this would allow Max to see how quickly and well they react, and without prior notice, Max would experience in full any "stalling tactic" that might be used to buy more time before responding.

However, if the casino is the one to first mention a third party dispute service, or that they are "acting in accordance" with standards set by a third party, the best reply would be to tell them that you are fully aware of these third party standards, and will give them the time they stipulate to resolve the issue internally before utilising the relevant complaints procedure - it works wonders! (from personal experience)

 

[maxd]

If the OP hadn't made threats, Max says the likely outcome would be pressing the casino for a full restoration of the balance. If he ignored the threats and still pressed for this, it would be evident to others that there was no downside to trying threats and blackmail first ....

Exactly! The settlement offer was an attempt to balance these and other factors, including the casino's responsibility for misleading the player (however unintentionally).

Later: I've just received confirmation from the casino that the player withdrew the settlement money Monday afternoon. How he can then say to me in an email the next day (Tuesday) that he doesn't accept the offer is beyond me! He took the money and in so doing ended the PAB. He's also terminated his membership here at Casinomeister for lying to me and wasting my time.

 

[skiny]

I agree, the guy was obviously a jerk and didn't deserve any help.

I also think the casino followed an entirely wrong path and got lucky that he was a jerk. It still stinks for the casino in my opinion. They should have fixed the problem properly before it got to that stage.