Convincing Webmasters to Advertise responsibly

[WagerWitch]

And how about affiliates who promote dodgy casinos take resposibility for THEIR actions?

You are missing the point ENTIRELY.

Someone Wrote the FBI about an affiliate.

There are tons of blinking ads out there. YOU - the gambler - are RESPONSIBLE for your choices.

The affiliate is just a billboard.

YOU -- the gambler -- are RESPONSIBLE for clicking on the ads.

YOU -- the gambler -- are RESPONSIBLE for your actions - win or lose.

I totally concur that bad affiliates are shady nasty people that deserve to lose business.

BUT FBI?

That's blackmail.

Roll your eyes all you want - but if you think the affiliate is the total responsibility for the gambler's playing loss/win - then you have said the KNIFE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER.

Period.

I am NOT saying affiliates aren't shady - I'm not saying that they aren't there to make a fast buck.

But you don't go putting LAW ENFORCEMENT into the mix because YOU choose to gamble - and you got burned... At least not to the affiliate.

Go after the REAL crooks - the damn casino.

Not the idiotic affiliate who has NO control over the casinos.

----NOTE--- and don't try to tell me what I'm saying... BAD AFFILIATES deserve to get a BAD REPUTATION.

But threatening with Law Enforcement???????

How stupid is that?

It's like suing the magazine company because you bought your wife perfume that stinks - because YOU saw it in an ad.

No one forced you to click on the link.

No one forced you to gamble.

That's like saying the BAR forced you to drink - because there were neon signs saying "BUDWEISER" - so you drove home drunk... DUH...

PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY. ADULT RESPONSIBILITY.

Own up to your own responsibility - and leave LAW ENFORCEMENT out of the mix. That's just evil.

With the current situation on the law - you could truly be ruining someone's life.

Again - I'm not saying shady affiliates ought to be praised - but law enforcement is another bird altogether.

I disagree with it so vehemently - because TRUST ME - once ONE affiliate goes down - WE ALL GO DOWN.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?

ONE affiliate - bad or good - goes down - WE ALL GO DOWN --- all of us - and MOST of us are GOOD Affiliates.

 

[bb28]

Wager Witch, don't you think you might be just a tad bit over-dramatic here?
Don't you suppose that the DOJ and law enforcement are already well aware that US citizens do have gambling portals and have had for quite some time and have you ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for such?


I understand your position and I'm sure most affiliates will agree with you on the point of affiliates shouldn't be targeting or attention brought on them because of someone's personal agenda. BTW.....I think you did miss the post where someone did point this out.

 

[WagerWitch]

Wager Witch, don't you think you might be just a tad bit over-dramatic here?
Don't you suppose that the DOJ and law enforcement are already well aware that US citizens do have gambling portals and have had for quite some time and have you ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for such?


I understand your position and I'm sure most affiliates will agree with you on the point of affiliates shouldn't be targeting or attention brought on them because of someone's personal agenda. BTW.....I think you did miss the post where someone did point this out.

OK - just a little dramatic... tad... bit...

And you're right - they probably do know.

But - they ignore it until it is forced into their playing field.... And a letter might possibly be that last little straw they need to start an investigation.

And then - the domino effect.

I don't believe we, as affiliates, are breaking any laws - nor do I think gambling online is breaking a law - but there HAVE been some casino promoters that have been arrested so far.

I just don't think this is the way people should be going when they should take responsibility for their own choices and actions.

 

[WagerWitch]

*note* I haven't seen any casino affiliates arrested yet - but with BetonSports and Neteller - etc. It probably is coming - yanno?

 

[LaurieJim]

So I'm now out $25 of my money but, more importantly, I have lost face in front of my friend and neighbour who is now out $250.

...AND THIS IS ALL THANKS TO A CASINO PORTAL THAT IS STILL PROMOTING THESE CROOKED CASINOS.

When I made my post 4 days ago, Gamtrak were still promoting Club Player and Palace Of Chance.

As of this point I have sent emails to Godaddy (Gamtraks domain registrar), Cogentco (the ISP) and the FBI all detailing the fact that Robin/Gamtrak promote and benefit from these crooked casinos.
I will continue to send as many emails, and file as many complaints as I can until Gamtrak are dead.
UNLESS GAMTRAK ARE WILLING TO REIMBURSE MY NEIGHBOUR AND MYSELF FOR THE MONEY THAT THE VITUAL GROUP WERE ABLE TO STEAL FROM US, THANKS TO GAMTRAK'S LIES AND DECEPTION, I WILL FOLLOW THEM TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH UNTIL THEY NO LONGER EXIST.

Look, i disagree with Gamtrak on alot of issues, but id never want someone dead and i sure wouldnt be calling the F.B.I over 250.00 , you've been around the gambling world long enough there are shady affys and shady casinos but there are alot of great affys out there as well as casinos.

I lost many thousands of dollars at virtual group before i wised up, im sure the manager of a Rival casino who used to work as the manager at that shithole awhile back will tell you so.They do not care, they do not care who promotes them, all they care about is screwing people out of their money and you got screwed, lessen learned.I do not condone promoting rogue casinos by any affy, not one bit.

I find the fact that you are trying to extort money from Gamtrak sickening and contacting the FBI is just about as low as a online gambler can slither.

What BB said is true Wager witch, your prolly getting your blood pressure up for no reason but i do understand your point , im sure the US goverment has better things to do then follow up on this complaint, at least they damn ought to be, more important issues to worry over imo................laurie

 

[triple777s]

This is ridiculous!

#1 - Once your all grown up and a adult...you are responsible for yourself and what you do, no one else..period. So you lost some money, everyone does...its gambling....you can not blame anyone else especially when there are hundreds of sites out there warning you against these casinos....if you took sometime and didn't jump on this group of casinos because of the enormous free chips they give out, you may have found a better casino to play at. Blaming someone else for your lack of gambling smarts is not fair, and is your own fault.....Do diligence....do your homework, its not hard to find a good casino....there are thousands out there...

Writing FBI...Threatening someone's life is pathetic...ridiculous and I think it should call for some type of banning...etc. Now i may not post alot here, but that should not matter....I am a player and an affiliate...and I think this all stinks!

Bryan....you really should be paying attention to this thread..you have someone threatening someone else and imagine someone writing the FBI about an affiliate site.....how stupid was that move...you may think it would only hurt the one person you seem to hate [for bullshit reasons i may add] but your stupid move of sending a complaint to the FBI about an illegal online gambling problem here in the States could ruin it for a whole lot of people....yourself included.

 

[vegetagirl2008]

Look, i disagree with Gamtrak on alot of issues, but id never want someone dead and i sure wouldnt be calling the F.B.I over 250.00 , you've been around the gambling world long enough there are shady affys and shady casinos but there are alot of great affys out there as well as casinos.

I lost many thousands of dollars at virtual group before i wised up, im sure the manager of a Rival casino who used to work as the manager at that shithole awhile back will tell you so.They do not care, they do not care who promotes them, all they care about is screwing people out of their money and you got screwed, lessen learned.I do not condone promoting rogue casinos by any affy, not one bit.

I find the fact that you are trying to extort money from Gamtrak sickening and contacting the FBI is just about as low as a online gambler can slither.

What BB said is true Wager witch, your prolly getting your blood pressure up for no reason but i do understand your point , im sure the US goverment has better things to do then follow up on this complaint, at least they damn ought to be, more important issues to worry over imo................laurie

But what can the FBI do. Nothing just because the OP will shoot themselves in the foot for playing there in the first place. The FBI has more important things to do like catching real criminals then bothering with some affiliate who promotes rogue casinos.

I wouldn't sweat it. They would have all of us in handcuffs. That's for sure.

And this personal war/vendetta your having all your are doing is hurting yourself. Lesson learned DO NOT PLAY AT ROGUE CASINOS. Simple. Take your losses and move on. I lost quite a thousand a rogue casinos and I am not bitching about it.

 

[greek39]

Roanan,

You are so way out of line!

And I know you don't care if I 'crucify you'.

As of this point I have sent emails to Godaddy (Gamtraks domain registrar), Cogentco (the ISP) and the FBI all detailing the fact that Robin/Gamtrak promote and benefit from these crooked casinos.
I will continue to send as many emails, and file as many complaints as I can until Gamtrak are dead.

UNLESS GAMTRAK ARE WILLING TO REIMBURSE MY NEIGHBOUR AND MYSELF FOR THE MONEY THAT THE VITUAL GROUP WERE ABLE TO STEAL FROM US, THANKS TO GAMTRAK'S LIES AND DECEPTION, I WILL FOLLOW THEM TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH UNTIL THEY NO LONGER EXIST.

If so I am confident this thread will be locked and hopefully archived. Verbal threats involving some ones life is very serious. The board has rules and participates have responsibilities to respect these rules. Over recent years numerous cyber bullies have been convicted and jailed for uttering death threats. Some boards have been closed down failure to moderate and enforce the rules. Look no further than facebooks lawsuits.

And if doesnt stop I will report this to the proper agencies. The real deal I am not joking this is very serious.

greek39/*

 

[Casinomeister]

...
I will continue to send as many emails, and file as many complaints as I can until Gamtrak are dead...

I hope you are referring to Gamtrak the business and "dead" as in "out of business".

Can I suggest you channel that aggression towards the casino group? Contact their ISP, the FBI etc etc about therm. It seems more logical to go to the source as they are the ones that took the money.

Exactly - you are dealing with businesses - keep it businesslike and go to the source. They are the ones who took your money - not Gamtrak.

Bryan....you really should be paying attention to this thread..you have someone threatening someone else and imagine someone writing the FBI about an affiliate site.....how stupid was that move...

That's why there's the "report a post" button

Yeah - I thought that this thread dropped off the radar, but I guess not. It began when I was on winter break and I never really followed up on it... There is a valid argument here, but it should never be taken as far as some people think it should.

Calling the feds for a $250 loss? It's a pipe dream believing that they are going to care. Why bother? They ought to be looking for bombs on our airplanes.

Gamtrak has a good website - but IMO the webmaster showed a poor lack of judgment by promoting the Virtual Casino group. This casino group has a long history of bad casino/player issues. This is a group of casinos that no affiliates in their right mind should be dealing with - much less advertising for. Like Simmo, I've met Robin and she seems like a nice girl. I'm really surprised that she is/was promoting this group. This doesn't make any sense to me.

Back to this thread - I'm renaming it so it doesn't imply that this is a personal battle between Roanan and Gamtrak. This should be a discussion on how to convince webmasters to do the right thing: advertise responsibly.

 

[Simmo!]

And I'm absolutely Amazed and SHOCKED that no one else said ANYTHING about this either.

I read the "Gamtrak are dead" bit as a business threat, not a personal threat, because of theuse of the "are" and not "is".

Regards the FBI, I didn't take Roanan's threat seriously, rather it sounded emotional, and even if it had been my bet is the FBI would probably a) be interested in the source - the casinos - anyway, b) probably view online gambling as a very trivial issue compared to other National issues and c)
The FBI aren't stupid - they must realise that the effects of 2006 have left the US gamblers more at risk so I would imagine that they are now waiting to see if regulation kicks in before any further steps.

Incidentally, the reason this thread got split out isn't just about Gamtrak or Roanan. It's about making affiliates aware that there are rogue casinos and that they should consider the effects of who they promote on the people who actually invest their money. If one affiliate reads this and decides to do more research on which casinos they promote, it's achieved it's objective.

 

[zebedy]

Is it even possible to stop affiliates doing what they want, to whom they want, anytime they want to do it ?
Until there are steps put into place that actually penalize an affiliate it will never stop. (probably by hurting them where it hurts most, the wallet)
Bad affiliates give the decent ones a bad name IMO just as bad casino's give the honest ones a bad name

Maybe an organization could be set up that works with both affiliates and casino's,
so when an affiliate turns to the dark side(promoting rogues-spamming-content theives etc), the organization could step in and notify the affiliate giving them time to change there ways but if the aff just has a FU attitude and thinks ill do whatever i want, then turn it over to the casino,s to just close the affs accounts, im sure if they suddenly found out there income was put at risk they would change there ways,

It could even be a good business idea for someone with the sponsorship the casino's may give you , it just needs someone to make the first step in finding out if the casino's are up for such a thing,
Then which casino's do you defy as rogue, CMs rogue list would be a good place to start, have a disscussion-vote-poll ,draw up a list as to which casino's you want to see changing there ways or run out of the business altogether,
Get the casino's to put it in the T&Cs that anyone caught turning to the dark side and having anything to do with the casino's on that list will lose all commissions coming to them unless they change there ways,
If you could get 10-12 of the best know casino's to sign on im sure more would follow,
it would be interesting to know what the owners/managers of decent RTG casino's feel towards the likes of virtual, would they like to see them run out or dont they really care what others get up to, if they dont care then this idea would be a wast of time

thats my thought of the day,now im going back to bed

 

[Simmo!]

...now im going back to bed

Boing!

Until there are steps put into place that actually penalize an affiliate it will never stop. (probably by hurting them where it hurts most, the wallet)
Bad affiliates give the decent ones a bad name IMO just as bad casino's give the honest ones a bad name

Agreed to a point. But people who research where they are going to play will start to realise that there are good and bad casinos, good and bad affiliates. And with the past reputation of gambling in general, research is always an advisable step. Therefore the assumption that good casinos/affiliates have a "bad name" by association is IMO only in the eyes of those that don't do their homework.

Is it even possible to stop affiliates doing what they want, to whom they want, anytime they want to do it ?

Yes and no. Those that see how representing bad casinos can also be bad for business will change if they have an ounce of business acumen. It's not just about taking stick from players - it's also logical business sense that if a casino doesn't treat it's players well then a) the players wont stick and b) they may well be dishonest with their affiliates too.

Representing a rogue casino is bad for an affiliate's business period. An affiliate will do far better by sending a player to a good casino while they have their attention and those that don't realise that don't deserve any sympathy when they start complaining about stats and stuff.

Success filters from the bottom up. Player happy = affiliate financially happy = casino financially happy. And the opposite is also true.

 

[bb28]

I read the "Gamtrak are dead" bit as a business threat, not a personal threat, because of theuse of the "are" and not "is".

As I read it and I think most others read it the same way, well excluding those that came here solely to defend GamTrack and have other agenda's.


Regards the FBI, I didn't take Roanan's threat seriously, rather it sounded emotional, and even if it had been my bet is the FBI would probably a) be interested in the source - the casinos - anyway, b) probably view online gambling as a very trivial issue compared to other National issues and c)
The FBI aren't stupid - they must realise that the effects of 2006 have left the US gamblers more at risk so I would imagine that they are now waiting to see if regulation kicks in before any further steps.

One other point I'd like to make about affiliates that is being overlooked but it's so obvious. Most new and a lot of old players have no idea at all what an affiliate is and they don't have a clue that when you click on that pretty flashing banner that there is someone out there who is going to make some money off of you if you lose. The player just sees the pretty banner and the offer and boom click and there they are. Most sites do not educate you as to what an affiliate is, now do they? Also another thing that is being forgotten is, since the new player/and a lot of older players don't have a clue what an affiliate is....then they don't have a clue who the affiliate is behind that site. When I was new and I signed up for all those freebies at the rogues, I didn't have a clue, still don't know who I signed up under. It was probably at least 2 years before I realized the role affiliates played, as I came here to read about the players issues. Most others don't know this either unless they happen to come across a thread here that enlightens them.

IMO, a lot of the portals that promote the rogues are using the players lack of knowledge to their advantage. Get real, how many of those sites have a section about who the affiliate is, much less offer you assistance if you get into trouble?

 

[Webzcas]

Most sites do not educate you as to what an affiliate is, now do they?

A lot of sites, particulary the older ones ( and I am not talking about the banner farms ) have a dedicated webmasters resource section. Whereby anyone viewing the site can visit and get a handle on what an affiliate actually is.

then they don't have a clue who the affiliate is behind that site.

True to an extent. Most portals do not provide any information on who is behind the site. Some such as CasinoMeister do, but this is the exception to the rule.

 

[Bencuri]

Boing!



Agreed to a point. But people who research where they are going to play will start to realise that there are good and bad casinos, good and bad affiliates. And with the past reputation of gambling in general, research is always an advisable step. Therefore the assumption that good casinos/affiliates have a "bad name" by association is IMO only in the eyes of those that don't do their homework.

Maybe it is obvious for you to expect doing such a homework, but in case somebody is a newcomer (especially in case he/she is a newcomer on using the internet too), they will hardly think about doing a search on which casinoi is honest or not. They simply don't think of this. If somebody is a newcomer on a field, you cannot expect him to know every trick to avoid mistakes or falling into trap. And the problem is that the affiliate sites make profit from this, that the newcomers don't know the tricks to protect themselves.


And about affiliate responsibility in general. Just think of yourself. You know that a car selling company in your town is rogue. A friend of yours wants to buy a car there. Will you recommend it to him? I guess not. The big affiliate sites do. They know a casino is rogue (it is quite unlikely they wouldn't know Silver Oak or Prism is not rogue). When a newcomer goes to their site, it reads: Come to play at Silver Oak, it is a cool place.... Now, is this honest? Even if they are just advertisers, it is not honest to my standards.

Even if they put a warning sign, it is not honest to let reference for these places on their site except for warning. Just look into the forums of Latestcasinobonuses.com or Casino-Crush.com. Much of the action there is on the bonuses of the rogue Virtual Group. Even if they have a warning sign, this is a great help for these affiliate sites to get more profit. People like visiting places where they can find more codes, and when it is about much money, they won't care about the warning sign. They will take the free money, even if it is for a rogue casino, especially if they are on loosing streak. And the Virtual Group does offer tons of free money codes. So this allowance of threads on rogue places works like a bait. Just imagine what the forums would be without these threads. They were almost empty and boring, full of old no deposit offers that were already used by most of the members. The fact that the Virtual Group codes appear in the forum keeps the forum alive and interesting for members. It is another trick for profit by the affiliates...

 

[Roanan]

If this was just about advertising casinos, I wouldn't have cared, but under Canadian, US, and English law it is illegal to advertise on behalf of a criminal enterprise and/or make false or misleading statements in your advertisements.

Gamtrak has violated both laws by not only promoting The Virtual Group, but also by making false statements about their honesty and integrity and censoring/deleting any posts that portrayed TVG in a negative light.

In addition, by being financially compensated for sending these crooks new victims, they went beyond being an affiliate and became a willing participant in this fraud.

The RCMP agreed with me when I made my original complaint to them regarding this issue and the owners of The Virtual Group DO have a warrant for their arrest in Canada because of the charges I laid. In addition it was recommended that I also file the complaint with the FBI as Gamtrak are housed in the USA, which is why I did.

As the owners of The Virtual Group will probably never set foot on Canadian or US soil, this leaves only Gamtrak as my available target, unless TVG are willing to come here and answer for their crimes, but that's never going to happen.

 

[Bencuri]

If this was just about advertising casinos, I wouldn't have cared, but under Canadian, US, and English law it is illegal to advertise on behalf of a criminal enterprise and/or make false or misleading statements in your advertisements.

Good point at least! It seems this dodgy law is reasonable sometimes!

 

[Casinomeister]

...and the owners of The Virtual Group DO have a warrant for their arrest in Canada because of the charges I laid...

Do you know who the owners are? How do you know they don't visit Canada on a regular basis? Just wondering.

 

[Sassy1]

IMHO, one of the reasons for the extra attention to Gamtrak's relationship with the Virtual Group is because of her attitude in this thread, beginning with post #33 and carrying on for quite a few posts after that one. Post 44 was a real mind blower! It left a bitter taste in many peoples' mouths.

Gamtrak:
I've taken a lot of flack for promoting your brands, but I don't waste time worrying about such things as long as my players don't have a problem with your brands and I get paid on time, then I don't have a problem with you.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/hello.31036/

 

[rockycatt]

If this was just about advertising casinos, I wouldn't have cared, but under Canadian, US, and English law it is illegal to advertise on behalf of a criminal enterprise and/or make false or misleading statements in your advertisements.

Gamtrak has violated both laws by not only promoting The Virtual Group, but also by making false statements about their honesty and integrity and censoring/deleting any posts that portrayed TVG in a negative light.

In addition, by being financially compensated for sending these crooks new victims, they went beyond being an affiliate and became a willing participant in this fraud.

The RCMP agreed with me when I made my original complaint to them regarding this issue and the owners of The Virtual Group DO have a warrant for their arrest in Canada because of the charges I laid. In addition it was recommended that I also file the complaint with the FBI as Gamtrak are housed in the USA, which is why I did.

As the owners of The Virtual Group will probably never set foot on Canadian or US soil, this leaves only Gamtrak as my available target, unless TVG are willing to come here and answer for their crimes, but that's never going to happen.

boy what they could have avoided for $275.00

 

[Roanan]

Do you know who the owners are? How do you know they don't visit Canada on a regular basis? Just wondering.

To the best of my knowledge, yes. The RCMP may have come up with something different but I'll have to ask the investigating officer.

As to whether he has been to Canada or not, I really can't answer that.
We don't have draconian national security laws, so every airline passenger isn't automatically run through the various databases. Only the INFL is usually checked.

 

[Roanan]

It now seems to me that there are a lot of shady characters associated with online casinos and portals.

For a while I tried to help Martin MacDonald get his name out of the mud, but he dumped on me for doing so.
I guess leopards really can't change their spots.

 

[Casinomeister]

It now seems to me that there are a lot of shady characters associated with online casinos and portals.

For a while I tried to help Martin MacDonald get his name out of the mud, but he dumped on me for doing so.
I guess leopards really can't change their spots.

I have dealt with the Virtual Casino group for years. I could tell you stories...but I'm not going there.

The thread is entitled Convincing webmasters to Advertise responsibly. Unfortunately, many are apathetic to player needs - and like mentioned in another current thread, most aff who promote rogue casinos are inexperienced or just plain naive.

 

[Roanan]

Seeing how the title of this thread has been renamed again, but to something most appropriate, I would like to point out a few more irresponsible forums/sites that still promote VCG.

I believed that public shaming is always a viable punishment, no matter the crime, so here we go...


bonusrating_com and online-casinos-source_com (one company)

No associated forum, but no warnings either. Just a 5-star rating system and they give POC 2.5/5 and ClubPlayer 3.5/5
Both ratings are at least 10 points too high


latestcasinobonuses_com

Although they are promoting Virtual, they have added a fairly stern warning on their pages advising players to "...proceed with caution with this casino group."


bankrollmob_com

This site is the worst of three mentioned here because they censor their forum.

I have personally posted MANY times warning other members, and blatantly asking the admin why he IS promoting ClubPlayer, and every single post has been deleted and I have been sanctioned.
In fact ANY complaint made against any poker site/casino that BRM promotes is rebuffed and/or deleted.

 

[Casinomeister]

IMHO, one of the reasons for the extra attention to Gamtrak's relationship with the Virtual Group is because of her attitude in this thread, beginning with post #33 and carrying on for quite a few posts after that one. Post 44 was a real mind blower! It left a bitter taste in many peoples' mouths.




https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/hello.31036/

I had plum forgot about that one.