Club World VS. CDS (Montana) resolution

[towik007]

hello

For some reason I can't post on complain section, so I have to put it here. Mods - feel free to move it.

Because I do EVERYTHING I could to resolve my problem without success i decided to make it public. I will try to explain what is the problem:

I played at CWC for about year.
suddenly they closed my account and returned deposit
winnings were voided
they told me it's because they banned my country few days before
I didn't agree to that because they didn't give me any notification they were closing doors for players from my country. Also they accept my deposit and gave bonus AFTER they banned my country - so they should accept winnings as well - right?

What I do...
1) I tried to contact casino but nice lady from phone support told me that they cant paid me out because "casino manager have to protect casino profits"
2) I tried to contact them by email but of course they didn't replay - ever.
3) I sent PM to casino rep here but no answer
4) i submitted PaB but max said he can do nothing and that casino is right in their decision
5) finally i submitted complain in Montana (central dispute system) ... and after 2 months of waiting they tell me that they will rule ON MY FAVOR. yuppie I said ... i finally get my money..... or not!

CWC casino was proved to be wrong in my case but they still don't paid me. and what is even worse tom from this forum don't answer to my PMs where I ask him why they don't follow CDS resolution.

So now I'm asking CWC in public forum why they don't want pay me and why "best customer support" casino don't answer on emails?

 

[deltoid]

Not cool. if they ban a country, all existing accounts should have been locked. We've seen how easy that is with RTG (cough).

The bottom line, they took your deposit and your bets, they should pay out. Would they have returned your deposit had you lost? Unlikely.

I call shenanigans!

 

[dominique]

4) i submitted PaB but max said he can do nothing and that casino is right in their decision

That makes me think there is more to that story.

 

[The Dude]

That makes me think there is more to that story.

Gee - must be that female intuition.

The crux of the matter is - the player is wrong.

He is playing from a village in Poland where for some reason a whole bunch of players are popping up. All have similar email addresses, user names etc., so the casino decided to ban Poland on the 5th of September. This player had been paid for his winnings accrued from deposits prior to that.

He claims that the casino banned Poland on the 12th, but he never responded to our emails when we asked him to prove it. And now he's posting here

As for Montana Disputes, I'd like to see the email he is referring to.

 

[chuchu59]

I assume that these players from Poland all took advantage of sign-up bonuses otherwise why the hassle.

 

[The Dude]

I assume that these players from Poland all took advantage of sign-up bonuses otherwise why the hassle.

Clubworld can answer this better than I can.

@this issue: the player is telling half the story. He signed up via

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

which was an affiliate site with a copied version of Club World and its old terms and conditions. (this site has been shut down BTW). When Montana originally saw the .us, they thought it was Club World thus their initial response, but when they realized their error, they changed their ruling.

 

[Pinababy69]

He is playing from a village in Poland where for some reason a whole bunch of players are popping up. All have similar email addresses, user names etc., so the casino decided to ban Poland on the 5th of September. This player had been paid for his winnings accrued from deposits prior to that.

He claims that the casino banned Poland on the 12th, but he never responded to our emails when we asked him to prove it. And now he's posting here

As for Montana Disputes, I'd like to see the email he is referring to.

I'd like to see the email as well, even copied and pasted here.

My only question is....whether the guy is a part of a fraud ring, or just suspicious or whatever....I'm going to assume that ClubWorld locked his account when they banned Poland? Was it locked on the 5th of September, or did it remain open and was he allowed to deposit? If it was locked on the 5th, then obviously he couldn't have deposited after that date. If it wasn't locked, and he did deposit.....why was he allowed to do so?

I know that he says he was allowed to play after the date of banning....but I'm more interested in what you have to say ie. what they've shown you in reference to the date, last deposit, etc.

EDIT: Forget the Montana email...just read the above post in its entirety....duh on me.

 

[deltoid]

Yeah I agree - if they did ban the country on the 5th, they should have locked the accounts on the 5th as well. Failing to do that would be a mistake on the casino's part, and in as much we ALL read the terms and conditions before every sign-in, the casino took the deposit and the bets (unless the player is leaving something out about that as well).

 

[towik007]

He is playing from a village in Poland where for some reason a whole bunch of players are popping up.

Im glad you replied to my post Casinomeister. As I see you belive to what casino said. Thats OK. I also know about dozen other polish players which were locked before me without ANY proper information from the casino. I believe this is the case you are refering to. They come from same village as I do.

Name of this village is Warsaw - 4 milion people city. But still village for people from Club World

I will give more details in the evening.

 

[RobWin]

I'd like to live in a village

 

[SkBurner]

I'd like to live in a village

Too Funny

 

[towik007]

He claims that the casino banned Poland on the 12th, but he never responded to our emails when we asked him to prove it. And now he's posting here

As far as I remember you never asked me for prove anything. I just submit PaB and Max replay quoting casino manager. CWC said that cut off date was on 5 SEP, after that my comments were ignored.

But if You want proofe here you have:

Hi Tomasz,

How are you? hope all is well.

Thank you for contacting customer support.

As far as I am aware this was on the Sep 12 2008.

If you are having any difficulties or require any assistance please do not hesitate to contact our friendly team, who is available 24/7.

Kind Regards

Natasha
Customer Support Advisor
ClubUSAcasino

This is e-mail from CWC which I recive on 14 SEP!

I also phoned cwc around 12-14 sep and girl from phone support told me that ban was introduced "couple of weeks ago"

.... isnt that strange? 3 people and 3 dates!

@this issue: the player is telling half the story. He signed up via

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

which was an affiliate site with a copied version of Club World and its old terms and conditions. (this site has been shut down BTW). When Montana originally saw the .us, they thought it was Club World thus their initial response,

Its not true, the site is still up and running with OLD TERMS... check yourself if you dont belive me:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

check the botom of the site, there is cwc copyright so who is running this site? cwc or afflites? if afflites why cwc allow them to do so?

but when they realized their error, they changed their ruling.

i dont agree with this, I have no information of CDS changeing the rulling in my case. As I know CDS they never change theirs rulling once they make it.... never.

but thats not all, after cwc didnt paid me i submited complain again and CDS replay to me saying that they cant do anything more and they will forward this to RTG. Would they do this if they had changed rulling?

I'd like to see the email as well, even copied and pasted here.

there is nothing interesting in e-mail from CDS. they are only saying that they ruled in my favor. Im also not sure can i paste here private communication between me and the CDS (?)

My only question is....whether the guy is a part of a fraud ring, or just suspicious or whatever....I'm going to assume that ClubWorld locked his account when they banned Poland? Was it locked on the 5th of September, or did it remain open and was he allowed to deposit? If it was locked on the 5th, then obviously he couldn't have deposited after that date. If it wasn't locked, and he did deposit.....why was he allowed to do so?

That is my point. If I were banned on 5 SEP how could I possible be depositing few days after that? I was because my account was open.

CWC have point in their T&C - I think their forget about it:

"CWC reserves the right to change this agreement from time to time, whenever a need arises. Although we will try to inform players of any changes when they occur, "

I wasnt informed. As well as I was in situation where I could only lose money to CWC. And that is unfair IMHO ... thats why im wasteing you time

t.

 

[RobWin]

That is kinda strange that the clubusacasino.us home page now has a re-direct to englishharbour.com

 

[vinylweatherman]

Clubworld can answer this better than I can.

@this issue: the player is telling half the story. He signed up via

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

which was an affiliate site with a copied version of Club World and its old terms and conditions. (this site has been shut down BTW). When Montana originally saw the .us, they thought it was Club World thus their initial response, but when they realized their error, they changed their ruling.

A player cannot be held responsible for using an affiliate site. Certainly, if that affiliate site is set up to look like the proper casino site, then surely it is the responsibility of the casino to control their affiliates. Affiliates are supposed to submit the names of the sites they are using, and these are supposedly checked out for content that might bring the casino into disrepute.

Club World are STILL not controlling their affiliates that constantly spam ME, and the spam can be pretty realistic at times, and look EXACTLY like a genuine offer.

Today, I received a spam for Lucky Red - this is out of control!!

Whilst clever advantage players and fraudsters will take advantage of errors such as this, innocent players get caught up too.

We should end the policy of affiliates who spam "getting a good talking to", they should be treated like this PLAYER was for breaching the rules, no-nonsense confiscation of winnings. If CS did indeed give a date of the 12th, and this player won BEFORE this, then it is STILL the responsibility of the casino to TRAIN IT'S CS STAFF in the importance of giving a CORRECT answer to such a CRITICAL query. If they don't know, say so, and find out from management.

Banning a country such as Poland is not logical, UNLESS there is access to the bigger picture, so it is unreasonable to expect an individual player to know their country is banned unless they are informed, or have had their account locked to enforce the ban. Thinking an individual player should have known their country was banned presupposes guilt, in that they were acting with others in a manner that was bound to attract a ban of some sort.

Since Poland is now in the EU, it MAY even be against EU trade rules simply to outright ban the entire country. Casinos are fighting tooth & nail when it is the other way around, with some EU states banning online casinos, with casinos then suddenly remembering these EU trade rules do NOT allow individual EU states to restrict trade from another EU state.

If it just takes a "village" of players to beat the casino by taking bonuses, then there has to be something wrong with the design of the promotions. Club World bonuses are non withdrawable, so ONLY player's own deposits and winnings can be withdrawn, which limits many methods for beating bonuses.



EDIT:-

Couldn't view that fake site, but now I have:-

href="http://www.clubusacasino.com/SmartDownloadCasino.asp?casinoID=181&gAID=17803&subGid=0">DOWNLOAD NOW!</a></b>&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;&nbsp;<a id="Header1_lnkHome" class="Menu"

It's a complete fake, a landing page from SPAM quite possibly. HOWEVER, it is pretty much INDISTINGUISHABLE from the real thing until you try to navigate anywhere.

The only thing that is a dead giveaway is that everything, home, promotions, offers, etc, all simply fetch the download from the GENUINE Club World US site.

17803 ? Is that the affiliate whose account is about to get closed over this?


Given this affiliate tag (looks like one, anyway), it should be a simple matter to see if this affiliate is connected to these Warsaw players, such as being in the same area. If this is just a load of players responding to spam, and being fooled, then there should be a fairly even, even if local, distribution, and the affiliate is likely to be a spammer, squirrelled away elsewhere.

 

[Pinababy69]

I was wondering if ClubWorld were going to comment on this situation? If Poland was banned on the 5th of September......can they confirm or deny that the player was able to deposit and play AFTER the 5th? If he was, and it was just casino error, then I think they need to honour his withdrawal/winnings. His account should have been locked at the time of the banning.

If his withdrawal is being denied, due to the casino claiming some sort of fraud by the player, then that is a different scenario. But going on the info so far in this thread, that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[towik007]

i didnt commit any fraud - if I would maxd or casinomeister itself would banned me long time ago when i submited PaB. Also CDS rule in my favor so i cant be 'fraudser'. At the end even casino didint close my account for 'fraud' but after they banned my country.

 

[clubworld]

Hello,

To clarify the dates, the ban was implemented on the 5th however Towik had a significant balance and playthrough on his account at the time from a deposit he made on the 4th.

I could see from his past activity that he would take a few days to make the playthrough with small bets and then cashout, so I left his account open so he could do so. This withdrawal (thousands of EUR) was paid in full on the 8th.

He did manage to get another deposit on after this which, was refunded in full and his account closed. It is unfortunate that his account was not blocked immediately after paying the withdrawal, and I have apologised to him for this. And yes, I would have refunded the deposit had he lost.

Towik knew that players from Poland were no longer permitted to play as we had contacted him on the 5th, and he has said that he checked the terms before making this additional deposit, however Poland was not in the excluded countries list as he was looking at a site owned and operated by an affiliate.

You will notice that if you visit the link to the terms he provided it is a very old copy of our terms page, however if you visit the root of the domain (

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) it redirects to English Harbour. We made a concerted effort to contact this affiliate and acquire control over the domain however the email address we had on file bounced and the phone number was invalid.

It took a considerable amount of sleuthing to get hold of this affilate but we have done so now and are in the process of having these pages removed.

Kind Regards
Tom

 

[Pinababy69]

Hello,

To clarify the dates, the ban was implemented on the 5th however Towik had a significant balance and playthrough on his account at the time from a deposit he made on the 4th.

I could see from his past activity that he would take a few days to make the playthrough with small bets and then cashout, so I left his account open so he could do so. This withdrawal (thousands of EUR) was paid in full on the 8th.

He did manage to get another deposit on after this which, was refunded in full and his account closed. It is unfortunate that his account was not blocked immediately after paying the withdrawal, and I have apologised to him for this. And yes, I would have refunded the deposit had he lost.

Towik knew that players from Poland were no longer permitted to play as we had contacted him on the 5th, and he has said that he checked the terms before making this additional deposit, however Poland was not in the excluded countries list as he was looking at a site owned and operated by an affiliate.

You will notice that if you visit the link to the terms he provided it is a very old copy of our terms page, however if you visit the root of the domain (

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) it redirects to English Harbour. We made a concerted effort to contact this affiliate and acquire control over the domain however the email address we had on file bounced and the phone number was invalid.

It took a considerable amount of sleuthing to get hold of this affilate but we have done so now and are in the process of having these pages removed.

Kind Regards
Tom

Thanks very much Tom, I, for one, appreciate the reply and the explanation. It puts things in a much clearer light, for me anyway. You could easily have locked his account on the fifth, and just returned the deposit existing on his account at that time, without allowing him to continue to play. What you did do seems a fair compromise. It is unfortunate that he managed to deposit again after that last withdrawal, but I doubt that you had anyone sitting at the "lock account" button, waiting for him to finish play and withdraw his existing balance.

The only discrepancy seems to be the player's assertion that he wasn't aware of the banning at the time it occurred....yet you say he was. It seems he was unsure enough of this to check the terms (on the wrong site), and the easiest solution to that would have been for him to check with support prior to depositing.

Thanks again Tom....and Towik, an unfortunate situation, but I'm not sure I believe that you had NO idea about Poland being banned. It sounds like you weren't sure one way or another...and thus you should have verified this fact prior to making another deposit.

 

[towik007]

Towik knew that players from Poland were no longer permitted to play as we had contacted him on the 5th,

Could You tell me how did CWC contacted with information of ban? (I state that I WAS NOT contacted - that is my main concern in this case)

This withdrawal (thousands of EUR) was paid in full on the 8th.
He did manage to get another deposit on after this which,

Account you are refering to is in USD, not EUR.
Withdraw was made on 8th SEP - thats corect - on 11:54 CET.
After that I recive promotion offer from Lauren offering me deposit bonuses.
I made my first deposit on 20:14 CET 8 SEP - 8 hours later. Thats indeed to short. But AFAIR my account remain open for at least another 48h. but this is not immportant here.

The only discrepancy seems to be the player's assertion that he wasn't aware of the banning at the time it occurred....yet you say he was.

At the time i was depositing on 8 SEP I had ABSOLUTLY no clue of CWC banning polish players. Im not an idiot to risk my money in no win situation... in order to gain what? bonuses... oh yeah i get 270 for my 600 deposit and this bonus had large WR and it was sticky so not worth the hassle.

It seems he was unsure enough of this to check the terms (on the wrong site),

i didnt check anything because i was sure everything was perfectly ok. i start checking after I discover that they void my deposit.

and the easiest solution to that would have been for him to check with support prior to depositing.

as i show before even CS didnt know what was the ban date.

---

again:
1) CWC said I was contacted - i said i wasnt ... could you prove that?
2) CWC said that I knew PL was banned - i say that im not kamikaze to deposit in casino that just banned me to not be able to withdraw winning i possible may win. im casino player but im also realistic - CWC is not the only casino in the internet

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thanks very much Tom, I, for one, appreciate the reply and the explanation. It puts things in a much clearer light, for me anyway. You could easily have locked his account on the fifth, and just returned the deposit existing on his account at that time, without allowing him to continue to play. What you did do seems a fair compromise. It is unfortunate that he managed to deposit again after that last withdrawal, but I doubt that you had anyone sitting at the "lock account" button, waiting for him to finish play and withdraw his existing balance.

The only discrepancy seems to be the player's assertion that he wasn't aware of the banning at the time it occurred....yet you say he was. It seems he was unsure enough of this to check the terms (on the wrong site), and the easiest solution to that would have been for him to check with support prior to depositing.

Thanks again Tom....and Towik, an unfortunate situation, but I'm not sure I believe that you had NO idea about Poland being banned. It sounds like you weren't sure one way or another...and thus you should have verified this fact prior to making another deposit.

He says he did, and got a reply from CS that the ban was from the 12th. This looks like another issue, one of management failure to keep CS up to date with developments.

I would have expected MORE action on this affiliate though, he should have had his affiliate account LOCKED, and revenue CONFISCATED, after all he broke so many rules (and even LAWS) by running that fake website.

We made a concerted effort to contact this affiliate and acquire control over the domain however the email address we had on file bounced and the phone number was invalid.

It took a considerable amount of sleuthing to get hold of this affilate but we have done so now and are in the process of having these pages removed.

This from Tom looks worryingly like this affiliate was to be given "a talking to", if he could be contacted, rather than having his account immediately locked. There would have been no need to establish contact to lock his affiliate account, and confiscate his revenue - access to his fake website would suffice.

This is NOT the FIRST time that there have been FAKE Club World landing pages, there is a bigger problem here.

Locking this affiliate account, and confiscating his revenue, would have made HIM seek to contact YOU to offer an explanation. Given the trouble this affiliate has caused with this copyright infringing marketing practise, he should NEVER be able to open another affiliate account, and ideally, the industry should treat rogue affiliates with the same contempt they do rogue players, after all, BOTH breeds are after YOUR MONEY, and are prepared to break the rules in it's pursuit.

 

[Pinababy69]

He says he did, and got a reply from CS that the ban was from the 12th. This looks like another issue, one of management failure to keep CS up to date with developments.

I would have expected MORE action on this affiliate though, he should have had his affiliate account LOCKED, and revenue CONFISCATED, after all he broke so many rules (and even LAWS) by running that fake website.

This from Tom looks worryingly like this affiliate was to be given "a talking to", if he could be contacted, rather than having his account immediately locked. There would have been no need to establish contact to lock his affiliate account, and confiscate his revenue - access to his fake website would suffice.

This is NOT the FIRST time that there have been FAKE Club World landing pages, there is a bigger problem here.

Locking this affiliate account, and confiscating his revenue, would have made HIM seek to contact YOU to offer an explanation. Given the trouble this affiliate has caused with this copyright infringing marketing practise, he should NEVER be able to open another affiliate account, and ideally, the industry should treat rogue affiliates with the same contempt they do rogue players, after all, BOTH breeds are after YOUR MONEY, and are prepared to break the rules in it's pursuit.

Agreed on the CS failure VWM, in regards to the email that Towik DID receive.....although it looks like that was after he had made the deposit, not prior to.

Totally agreed on the statements regarding affiliates....these fake landing pages need to go. They are worthless, and they are internet garbage. All casinos need to start taking a harder line with rogue affiliates, and ones who don't conduct themselves in the proper manner.

Towik....I agree that your situation isn't ideal. And you should not have received any promo offers after the date of banning. Perhaps Tom could liaise with the marketing department to ensure this kind of thing doesn't happen again in the future.

My comments were really trying to focus on the fact that I think the casino tried to come to a fair resolution with you. On the 5th, you had a balance consisting of deposit and bonus, with playthrough attached. They allowed you to continue playing, and paid you out when you won. Yes, your account should have been locked immediately after that, but Tom has apologized for that. I doubt these things are automated, and need someone to manually lock the account. Had you been playing at a less reputable establishment, I can almost guarantee that you never would have been allowed to continue playing with your existing deposit and bonus....and even if you were, you know what would have happened? If you had lost, they would have kept your deposit and then locked your account. If you had won, they would voided your winnings (and "possibly" returned your deposit, depending on how shady they were).

It's not ideal, but it seemed a fair compromise to me.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I would like to hear more on the allegation that CDS ruled in the player's favour, and CW refused to abide by the ruling.
If true, this is not a good way of inspiring confidence in players, since the purpose of these independent dispute resolution procedures is to allow an INDEPENDENT review and conclusion.

We could now have rogue RTG casinos routinely ignoring CDS rulings, and then saying "hey!!! CW did it, so why shouldn't we if it is in our business interests".

First off, towik007 should furnish proof that he really DID get a ruling in his favour. I have a lingering doubt, since CDS MONTANA has not been in existence for some while, and the process was supposed to be taken over by a new body, and this just never seemed to make much progress.

From the official CW response, it seems the original tale from towik007 was incomplete, making no mention at all of the first deposit, and payment of winnings, but concentrating on a deposit made afterwards.
Being "economical with the truth" like this in a PAB is what can get it scrapped by Max, and may have significantly dented the OP's credibilty already - after all, what else has been left out of the story?

 

[clubworld]

Hi VWM,

I certainly share your pain with these affiliates, it causes us no end of problems and it is very difficult to prevent. They put convincing looking websites up with ridiculous offers to increase their conversions and leave our CS team to sort out the mess when the player cannot redeem the offer.

We have not paid this affiliate anything since the website came to light (this is probably the reason behind the redirect to English Harbour).

I spoke to the CS advisor who told Towik about the ban date at the time and she understood the question from the player was regarding when his account was banned, not about the date we excluded Polish players from the casino.

Kind Regards
Tom

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi VWM,

I certainly share your pain with these affiliates, it causes us no end of problems and it is very difficult to prevent. They put convincing looking websites up with ridiculous offers to increase their conversions and leave our CS team to sort out the mess when the player cannot redeem the offer.

We have not paid this affiliate anything since the website came to light (this is probably the reason behind the redirect to English Harbour).

I spoke to the CS advisor who told Towik about the ban date at the time and she understood the question from the player was regarding when his account was banned, not about the date we excluded Polish players from the casino.

Kind Regards
Tom

Since this was the 12th, which he quoted from the email sent from support, how come there was still an issue since he was paid winnings from activity up until that date?

What about his claim to have a ruling in his favour from the CDS service, if this is so, YOU should have received a copy of it too.

Despite CW feeling hard done by, NO casino should be refusing to honour a validly obtained ruling in a player's favour from an officially accepted dispute resolution service, as it destroys the element of trust players have in such a service, and that it is truly independent.

If a player feels hard done by, but a dispute resolution process rules against them, THEY are told "tough".

It is a good job this affiliate was not paid, as he at least is not profiting from this deception, however, English Harbour is now in his sights, and could end up with players thinking they have been promised something directly by the casino.

There seem pretty good controls designed to weed out rogue players, so how come these rogue affiliates just keep coming back - don't they have to send in picture ID, utility bill & proof of ownership of the account to which their affiliate revenue is to be paid?

 

[Pinababy69]

What about his claim to have a ruling in his favour from the CDS service, if this is so, YOU should have received a copy of it too.

Despite CW feeling hard done by, NO casino should be refusing to honour a validly obtained ruling in a player's favour from an officially accepted dispute resolution service, as it destroys the element of trust players have in such a service, and that it is truly independent.

If a player feels hard done by, but a dispute resolution process rules against them, THEY are told "tough".

Vinyl, according to Bryan's post below, CDS reversed their decision, as they had thought that the player was looking at the ClubWorld site directly, and not at some affy clone page. That's my understanding anyway. Is that what you get out of it too? So I don't see ClubWorld as refusing to comply with a ruling, when the ruling was reversed.

@this issue: the player is telling half the story. He signed up via

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

which was an affiliate site with a copied version of Club World and its old terms and conditions. (this site has been shut down BTW). When Montana originally saw the .us, they thought it was Club World thus their initial response, but when they realized their error, they changed their ruling.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Vinyl, according to Bryan's post below, CDS reversed their decision, as they had thought that the player was looking at the ClubWorld site directly, and not at some affy clone page. That's my understanding anyway. Is that what you get out of it too? So I don't see ClubWorld as refusing to comply with a ruling, when the ruling was reversed.

I see, another economy of truth from the OP. He mentioned a ruling in his favour, but not the reversal, so the thread title itself is misleading, since surely this reversal preceded the posting.

Now, the industry needs to SHOW us that they are as TOUGH on these rogue affiliates as they are on the rogue PLAYERS.

This means no more "good talking to" responses, but locking affiliate accounts and removing any revenue they may have gained through disreputable marketing. They should develop a way to be constantly on top of ALL affiliate sites, so no rogue could operate for long enough to make the profit worthwhile. This could be by using software, similar to affiliateguarddog, to track changes in affiliate sites, and ONLY allowing affiliates to use sites they have pre-registered with the program (this might also cut down spam, since using tags in spam would no longer track because they wouldn't have come from a site they had pre-registered).

I wonder also if it might be possible to code something into the download module itself, so that it would not function if stolen, or linked into from a fake site, forcing instead the player onto the real site, perhaps even with a warning that they had been looking at a fake one, and to read the terms again, or contact support.

 

[RobWin]

Hi VWM,

I certainly share your pain with these affiliates, it causes us no end of problems and it is very difficult to prevent. They put convincing looking websites up with ridiculous offers to increase their conversions and leave our CS team to sort out the mess when the player cannot redeem the offer.

We have not paid this affiliate anything since the website came to light (this is probably the reason behind the redirect to English Harbour).

I spoke to the CS advisor who told Towik about the ban date at the time and she understood the question from the player was regarding when his account was banned, not about the date we excluded Polish players from the casino.

Kind Regards
Tom

Tom, this $hit is really starting to get out of hand the way it appears to me my friend. Check out the latest here

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Hell they've even renamed your casino.

Old Attachment (Invalid)

and their email address in the SPAM mail is [email protected]?subject=Gonchar and Judith Baugher <[email protected]>


You guys really need to get these ROGUE Affiliates under control here.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Where's the payoff for this affiliate

All links are clickable, and they go to Club World's proper site.

Even the "download now" link has only this coding:-

href="http://www.clubukcasino.com/smartdownloadcasino.asp"><img src="_Common/_Images/nav_download.gif" border=0 class="navbar_link" alt="Download Now"></a>

It's direct, no affy tag - what's up with that

This smells of DIRECT MARKETING on contract, hence no affiliate tag. (just like contracting a company to send out a load of CDs).

 

[RobWin]

Where's the payoff for this affiliate

All links are clickable, and they go to Club World's proper site.

Even the "download now" link has only this coding:-



It's direct, no affy tag - what's up with that

This smells of DIRECT MARKETING on contract, hence no affiliate tag. (just like contracting a company to send out a load of CDs).

Well the SPAM Email that was received did not look like something a professional marketing company would be sending out, here it is:

From: Judith Baugher <[email protected]>
To: xxxxxxx <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wed, 20 May 2009 4:45 pm
Subject: USplayers welcome


xxxxxxx,
Want to make big Money when playing online?

If so visit www.6dtree.com



To move yourself off this mailto:[email protected]?subject=Gonchar
%20mayflower%20romeglory

 

[chuchu59]

As things unravel, I think the title of the thread should be changed so that the credibility of CW would not be undermined.

 

[maxd]

Agreed, changing now.

 

[towik007]

I see, another economy of truth from the OP.

VVW before making comment like this please read my post very carefully. I write that CDS has ruled on my favor and then confirmed this ... I HAVE NO INFORMATION that CDS changed this ruling.

 

[Tengil]

You (CW) let him deposit and even mailed a promo to him. Just pay. IMO

And the person who thinks Warsaw is a village should go back to school.

 

[chuchu59]

VVW before making comment like this please read my post very carefully. I write that CDS has ruled on my favor and then confirmed this ... I HAVE NO INFORMATION that CDS changed this ruling.

No need to be upset on this. Just go to the CDS site and check if there are any updates. If not, Bryan could be wrong and CDS is still ruling in your favour. However, if they have changed their ruling, I believe you should post it here as well.

 

[towik007]

i just checked my 'account' at CDS and I see no new massage from CDS team, and that indicate that they didnt change they mind. I also check my intial letter to cds and I told them that clubusacasino.us is a fake site ... not a official CWC site as someone said earlier.

There is very important question now:

Bryan, can You give more details of Tom's quoted e-mail which says that CDS changed rulling? Im very interesed in date of this e-mail.

t.

 

[clubworld]

Hi Towik,

The facts of this case are quite simple.

You are from Poland, and we do not accept Polish players in the casino. As such the deposit you made after the ban date was refunded to you.

It is unfortunate that this deposit was not prevented by the measures we put in place, and I do apologise sincerely for this.

We administered your account as fairly as we could, even paying out thousands of EUR on winnings made after the ban as the associated deposit was just before the ban date.

Kind Regards
Tom

 

[KasinoKing]

Tom, this $hit is really starting to get out of hand the way it appears to me my friend. Check out the latest here

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Hell they've even renamed your casino.

Looks like that rogue site has been taken down now - I get a "page not found" error when I try to visit.

That was quick CWC

KK

 

[chuchu59]

Hi Towik,

The facts of this case are quite simple.

You are from Poland, and we do not accept Polish players in the casino. As such the deposit you made after the ban date was refunded to you.

It is unfortunate that this deposit was not prevented by the measures we put in place, and I do apologise sincerely for this.

We administered your account as fairly as we could, even paying out thousands of EUR on winnings made after the ban as the associated deposit was just before the ban date.

Kind Regards
Tom

Tom,

While I appreciate that you had covered more than what you were supposed to do the remaining sticking point is the judgment by CDS. Did they have a subsequent ruling that overturned the original one or was it just that their original ruling was based on inaccurate facts and which should have been voided after you made some disclosures to them. Unless you shed some light on this the player wont be calling it a day.

 

[RobWin]

Looks like that rogue site has been taken down now - I get a "page not found" error when I try to visit.

That was quick CWC

KK

After doing some further Whois investigating, I'm not quite convinced yet that this was a rogue affiliate after all

Maybe Tom could comment on this for us.

 

[gloria460]

CWC

There are some things that Tom left out or just ignored. His deposit was returned but they should have also paid him his winnings. If they returned the deposit they should have also paid the winnings as the OP didn't know he couldn't play there.

I understand protecting yourself from frauds and such but this guy is not a fraud and played with the intentions of winning and then those winnings were denied and account locked.

He should be paid period. He signed up through an affliate of cwc and therefore they are responsible for paying him.

 

[vinylweatherman]

There are some things that Tom left out or just ignored. His deposit was returned but they should have also paid him his winnings. If they returned the deposit they should have also paid the winnings as the OP didn't know he couldn't play there.

I understand protecting yourself from frauds and such but this guy is not a fraud and played with the intentions of winning and then those winnings were denied and account locked.

He should be paid period. He signed up through an affliate of cwc and therefore they are responsible for paying him.

A compelling argument.

The ban on Poland was made on an ARBITRARY date, no doubt a "knee jerk" reaction to something that was happening involving OTHER Polish players, such as strong suspicion of players acting in concert in a manner that may be fraudulent.
The fact that the OP was able to make a second deposit was the fault of the casino CS staff, in not immediately locking the account after withdrawal, as well as failing to remove the player from the promotional emails list. I find CW can remove players pretty fast from the promotional emails list when they want too. The players that SHOULDN'T be getting paid are all those Polish players that created this situation, who no doubt were breaking the rules en-masse.
Do CW assert that the OP was indeed one of the mass of Polish players that triggered the ban?

Under circumstances where "emergency" changes to terms are made, it is NOT fair to rely on the clause requiring players to regularly review the T & C, which presupposes a 30 day cycle in most cases, with the expectation among players that terms are most likely to change when a new cycle of promotions is launched.
Here in the UK, there are laws requiring 30 days notice be given to a customer of any changes to terms and conditions that ADVERSELY affect them. Why should the internet casino industry be exempt from this, after all - don't they propmote themselves as LEGITIMATE enterprises, and are supposedly trying to rid themselves of the "wild west" image.

I sometimes wonder whether it is our consumer protection laws that scare casinos off from going for a UK license, preferring instead to go for the whitelist jurisdictions, or even the well known, but rather lightly regulated, traditional places, such as Kahnawake.

Under the new UK laws that permit courts to enforce gambling debts, the refund of deposit option often employed may no longer be seen as final in some cases.

The CDS matter is probably the most important, since the OP used this instead of going to court, and got a ruling in his favour. Now CDS have reversed this, and have told the casino, but not the original complainant. Since the OP says that you can log on to an account when you have a dispute, there can be no chance of their reversal email being tangled up in spam filters.
I hope either Bryan or Max can check this directly with CDS, and find the current status of this dispute, as if overturned, it would show CDS as incompetent in failing to notify the complainant, rather than Club World as having disregarded a ruling against them.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Well the SPAM Email that was received did not look like something a professional marketing company would be sending out, here it is:

From: Judith Baugher <[email protected]>
To: xxxxxxx <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wed, 20 May 2009 4:45 pm
Subject: USplayers welcome


xxxxxxx,
Want to make big Money when playing online?

If so visit www.6dtree.com



To move yourself off this mailto:[email protected]?subject=Gonchar
%20mayflower%20romeglory

Clearly SPAM, but what puzzled me was the appearance of the source code on the fake landing page. No affiliate coding was present, so what was in it for this spammer?
I could only see logic where the spammer was a "black hat" marketing outfit, paid an up front fee to "market" the product, which was done by sending out the spam.
This seems to be how it is done when we get those CDs through the post. I also received through the post an offer for a FAKE casino, with a link to a FAKE website, which redirected to the GENUINE casino behind the campaign. This proves that casinos use this up front fee method for marketing, and often do not know how the marketing is done. The fact that there is so much of this, makes me think that some casinos don't CARE how the marketing is done, so long as it gets results.

Maybe the way affiliate programs are set up is simply not fit for purpose, because despite all the complaints, the spam increases relentlessly.

 

[dominique]

Hmmm...

Can you get through to this site? I can't. From what you wrote it sounds like it was a copy of the club world site?

Lookalike landing pages on spam sites are usually set up by fly by night affiliates, and most casinos will shut down their accounts immediately upon discovery. They may even go after them for copyright infringement.

But there are also a lot of other reasons you may fond sites that are devoid of aff codes.

Blackhatters sometimes set up sites, spam them to get traffic there and then sell the sites for more money because it has traffic. Or, they wait for google to give it ranking and then sell links based on traffic and PR. Or, they wait for google to give it ranking and then use it to drive up another site by linking to it. Sometimes they just redirect traffic from it to a real casino - no link needed on the site, the affcode will be in the redirect. Sites like that don't aim to make money at the first step, they are accessory sites that are used for a different purpose. Lots of sites like that out there - the most prominent ones being ones that look like search pages and link directly to lots of places.

Stupid names like www.6dtree.com are a surefire indicator that it's a spam site of some sort.

There are also some legit reasons for a lack of aff codes - many webmasters redirect the link you click on through another page that has nothing but aff codes, but you never see that. The reason for that being that when they switch out aff codes, they only have to change it on that one page instead of searching their site for hours rounding up the links in question.

Just interjecting some possibilities here...

Anyway, I can't load the thing...