Casino.com requesting notarised documents to be sent to Philippines

tarrix

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Location
MO
After making a cashout I received an e-mail requesting notarised ID&utility bill being sent to some address in the Philippines. Explaing the difficulties that this request creates and asking to accept electronic versions didn`t help.

I believe such a request is just too much. It is of great inconvenience for me and presumably would be such for any other player.
There are several issues:
1. You spend time and money on this. I wouldn`t trust normal post with a notarised copy of my passport, so the only solution is using services like DHL, which cost pretty much. Notarising isn`t free either. I highly doubt that the casino would compensate this.
2. Security issues. I do have an uneasy feeling about entrusting any casino with my notarised documents, which do have legal force, afaik.
3. WHAT are the grounds for such a request. I have played at online casinos for some time and I have never received such a request. Scanned copies sent via e-mail have always been accepted. What is so special about Casino.com that they decide to make so much inconvenience for their players?

I haven`t found a Casino.com rep here to discuss this matter.I hope that Casinomeister can help.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
After making a cashout I received an e-mail requesting notarised ID&utility bill being sent to some address in the Philippines. Explaing the difficulties that this request creates and asking to accept electronic versions didn`t help.

I believe such a request is just too much. It is of great inconvenience for me and presumably would be such for any other player.
There are several issues:
1. You spend time and money on this. I wouldn`t trust normal post with a notarised copy of my passport, so the only solution is using services like DHL, which cost pretty much. Notarising isn`t free either. I highly doubt that the casino would compensate this.
2. Security issues. I do have an uneasy feeling about entrusting any casino with my notarised documents, which do have legal force, afaik.
3. WHAT are the grounds for such a request. I have played at online casinos for some time and I have never received such a request. Scanned copies sent via e-mail have always been accepted. What is so special about Casino.com that they decide to make so much inconvenience for their players?

I haven`t found a Casino.com rep here to discuss this matter.I hope that Casinomeister can help.

This would not be the first time this has happend, but use the PAB, and create a TEST CASE for Max & Bryan to investigate. NO reputable casino should be asking players to POST such information to an address in a country not best known for tight legislation to protect such sensitive data.

Governments would "have a fit" if they realised that PASSPORT copies like this were being POSTED to these destinations. This is even LESS secure than sending files by email, which is itself insecure, and has been implicated in cases where rogue casinos/employees have "leaked" player data.

Bryan CANNOT take action based on mere allegations, so either a PM, or full blown PAB, on the matter will gather enough evidence (or lack of cooperation) to make a decision of where this casino should be listed on this site.

The philipines are known for their "weak" anti money laundering laws, and ewallets often "ban" players from these countries.

Players from such countries are also under much greater scrutiny.

IF you POST these documents to the Philipines, this is where your data is going to be received, handled, and stored. The data will be handled under Philipine data protection laws, NOT those of YOUR country.

I am guessing that casino.com is Playtech, who are listed here in the UK, so should really be handling sensitive "customer" data in the UK (or at least a country with similar levels of protection) - or are our data handling laws too restrictive for them:rolleyes:

There has yet (to my knowledge) to be a case where a player has posted documents to Playtech in the Philipines, had the post "disappear" in transit, and the documents later turn up in the hands of criminals, or worse - terrorists. THIS is the major concern, and it has ALREADY happened in ISRAEL, causing a souring of UK-Israeli relations. The passport copies in this case were used to create false passports, which were then used by an assassination squad to "dispose" of an annoyance to the state of Israel. Blunders meant they got caught, and the link to stolen UK passports exposed.
 

love2winalot

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Location
Philippines/Visiting Las vegas
Hiya: Not to derail the topic, but next time someone says that the philippines, in 2010, has weak anti money laundering laws, "like back in 1980" maybe they should go there and see for themself first?

They are more strick than anything the US has to offer. Even $ Cash deposits into banks are held for 48-72 hours before you can touch it. You can xchange money at a bank, but, can not deposit the money into the bank until the next day.........and on and on like this. If a bank in America had these restrictions, they would be broke within a week.

Now, I agree, documents should never have to be sent, "Any where", via normal mail. That is just plain un acceptable. Bodog uses people to process money thru Western Union in the philippines. However, they do not require you to send any documents there.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Hiya: Not to derail the topic, but next time someone says that the philippines, in 2010, has weak anti money laundering laws, "like back in 1980" maybe they should go there and see for themself first?

They are more strick than anything the US has to offer. Even $ Cash deposits into banks are held for 48-72 hours before you can touch it. You can xchange money at a bank, but, can not deposit the money into the bank until the next day.........and on and on like this. If a bank in America had these restrictions, they would be broke within a week.

Now, I agree, documents should never have to be sent, "Any where", via normal mail. That is just plain un acceptable. Bodog uses people to process money thru Western Union in the philippines. However, they do not require you to send any documents there.

Unfortunately, old impressions die hard. Will Neteller now accept you as a customer?
This is what came up before, and the excuse from Neteller at the time for blanket banning customers from the Phillipines was "weak anti money laundering laws".
It seems the Phillipines have listened, and tightened things up.

What about data protection laws though, and the security of the mail between arriving in the Phillipines, and arriving at these verification offices run by Playtech. These documents are PASSPORTS, so it is not just players you have to convince, but GOVERNMENTS.

Playtech are a listed company, so if anything went wrong with this process, the news & scandal could demolish their shares.
 

slotplayer

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
webmeister
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Location
USA
if there was no fraud there would be reason to hold cash deposits for 48-72 hours.
 

liquuid_fusion

Meister Member
PABaccred
PABnorogue
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Nov 6, 2005
Location
UK
I had a large win last year at Casino.com and had to send a notarised copy of my passport to an address in Gibraltar.

They were not overly professional about it - I requested by email and in the covering letter that they immediately confirm receipt of the copy, but they never did. They paid my win though, no problems.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I had a large win last year at Casino.com and had to send a notarised copy of my passport to an address in Gibraltar.

They were not overly professional about it - I requested by email and in the covering letter that they immediately confirm receipt of the copy, but they never did. They paid my win though, no problems.

At least this stays within the UK (Gibraltar being a UK dependency). Sending by post is not secure though, and it seems casinos do NOT take the issue of security as seriously as they should. Where documents are "lost", casinos simply ask the player to "send them again", but do NOT seem overly concerned with investigating WHERE the original "lost" documents ended up.

Casinos CANNOT adhere to ANY data handling procedures on documents they have LOST, can they?

The above case CLEARLY demonstrated their attitude, they don't feel it important that they aknowledge safe receipt, leaving the player to ASSUME the documents arrived OK on the basis that they got paid.

Casinos also overestimate their importance in the greater scheme of things. Whilst sending such documents through the post MIGHT be expected when dealing with a LARGE estate, it is NOT necessary when doing nothing more than transacting with a BUSINESS online.

I have opened online bank accounts, and there has been no need to send such documents, only to sign a form sent to me through the post, and sending it back, as final confirmation of my address, and that I agree to the terms.

Casinos tend to wait until players request a withdrawal before telling them they have to send documents through the post. It is then TOO LATE for the player to take their business elsewhere, since they have to take the risk just to close their current position with the casino (in other words, get their money out), only THEN can they express their disatisfaction by closing their accounts & playing elsewhere.

Currently, governments know little or nothing about this kind of thing going on, else they would be issuing warnings of the kind issued to those going on holiday about letting hotels have their passports "for safe keeping".

The warning is "Don't hand your passport over to the hotel, nor let them make a copy of it". It is OK to SHOW it to them, but you should NOT let them take it away, even for a short time.
A similar warning has been given out by banks with regard to credit/debit cards, although providing copies with the middle 8 digits and security code blacked out prevents the copy from being used for fraud.

IF a big incident is traced back to the way casinos handle and store documents, it could set the industry back YEARS, with some governments telling other, more liberal ones, "told you so". The industry has powerful enemies who will relish such an opportunity, and are bound to exaggerate a molehill into a mountain to further their cause.
 

P.V.

Senior Member
webmeister
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Location
Turn around...
After making a cashout I received an e-mail requesting notarised ID&utility bill being sent to some address in the Philippines. Explaing the difficulties that this request creates and asking to accept electronic versions didn`t help.

I believe such a request is just too much. It is of great inconvenience for me and presumably would be such for any other player.
There are several issues:
1. You spend time and money on this. I wouldn`t trust normal post with a notarised copy of my passport, so the only solution is using services like DHL, which cost pretty much. Notarising isn`t free either. I highly doubt that the casino would compensate this.
2. Security issues. I do have an uneasy feeling about entrusting any casino with my notarised documents, which do have legal force, afaik.
3. WHAT are the grounds for such a request. I have played at online casinos for some time and I have never received such a request. Scanned copies sent via e-mail have always been accepted. What is so special about Casino.com that they decide to make so much inconvenience for their players?

I haven`t found a Casino.com rep here to discuss this matter.I hope that Casinomeister can help.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

:what:

How is that relevant at all? Even the methods of sending docs in says nothing about sending stuff to the Philippines, unless Gibraltar migrated over that way. :rolleyes: and of course there's no mention of having to have any documents notarized.

(1) Email to docs@casino.com
(2) Fax to +44 871 900 6966
(3) Post to Casino.com Member Service, PO Box 1240, Gibraltar

oh yea, definitely send docs to some PO Box. :rolleyes:
 

P.V.

Senior Member
webmeister
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Location
Turn around...
:what:

How is that relevant at all? Even the methods of sending docs in says nothing about sending stuff to the Philippines, unless Gibraltar migrated over that way. :rolleyes: and of course there's no mention of having to have any documents notarized.



oh yea, definitely send docs to some PO Box. :rolleyes:



I totally agree with everything you pointed out Win Big. I thought I'd post a link from their website showing a different address and an additional unsecure way for tarrix to send documents to them by email. Again I agree with you, just pointing out what the website says verses the other address by tarrix.

You obviously haven't read any of my replies or you'd know I'm on your side and that I don't like these procedures either. Enough said. VinylWeatherman appears to be on top of this and a :thumbsup: to him.
 

Marie2473

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Location
Sweden
Well, I have deposited at casino.com but never cashed out and this post made me not wanna deposit there anymore...
I do understand that they have to be careful for fraud and other stuff, but all other casinos accepts electronical docs so why cant they?
 

liquuid_fusion

Meister Member
PABaccred
PABnorogue
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Nov 6, 2005
Location
UK
They do usually accept electronic docs, I think it's only in exceptional circumstances that they need a paper notarised document copy.
 

love2winalot

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Location
Philippines/Visiting Las vegas
Hiya: We ALL agree that documents should, "NEVER" be sent through normal mail. Hell, even in America this is true. I ordered a battery through Amazon. It was sent to dhl, and then lost by the Post office. They sent another one, and i got it yesterday. But what if it was not a battery? What if it was a Passport, or state ID Card, or something?

The reason they hold cash is that they also record the serial # of each bill deposited. And Neteller are jerks. I used them for years, and even still have me Neteller debit card. They will not even respond to any e mail asking why the Philippines is still on their, "Grey List"? That being, they acknowledge things have improved, and new laws have been in place for many many years, and are still, "Waiting" to see if they will remove the philippines from their restricted country list.

PS: For fun, go look at Neteller, and see some countries that are, "A-OK", according to them.......You will be surprised.............:what:
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
That fax number is a UK PREMIUM RATE number, and these DO NOT NORMALLY WORK from OUTSIDE the UK, which could mean players have problems faxing the documents, and the casino will blame it on the player, whereas it is their choice of non-standard number that is blocking the transmission of the faxes.

Email, although insecure, is the normal way documents are sent. It seems casinos lack the skills necessary to build a secure document upload page on their website. Click2Pay has had this as "standard" for YEARS.

Neteller are STILL unhappy with the Philippines, so there is STILL a problem that no-one wants to talk about, so how can players feel safe sending their documents through the post to the Philippines?

The Gibraltar address is safer, but any "clout" would be effective only if the casino itself was licensed by Gibraltar, in which case a complaint could be made to the GRA that the casino lost sensitive documents because they used an inherently insecure system for processing them.
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
this casino should be rogued. Such a disrespect to the player.
 

takethemoney

Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Location
Washington
With regard to the Philippines, it is really poor over there and because of there being so many desperate people, there is rampant fraudulent activity, preying on people from other countries over the internet. I would never send personal info to anyone over there. That just sounds like a good means to have your identity stolen.

A few years ago I was trying to deposit with a credit card at a casino, who's name I don't recall. My bank had banned online gambling transactions so I went to live chat and was told I could send a western union. I was then given the name and address of someone in the Philippines. I said I'll pass and did not deposit. Too risky, IMO.
 

love2winalot

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Location
Philippines/Visiting Las vegas
It was most likely Bodog casino, as they use people in the philippines to handle Western Union Deposits. I had called, and used that service once, about 16 months ago.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
I'm still trying to figure out why they want these docs sent to the Philippines when they clearly have a Gibraltar mailing address listed on the withdrawal page. What's up with that?
 

takethemoney

Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Location
Washington
I'm still trying to figure out why they want these docs sent to the Philippines when they clearly have a Gibraltar mailing address listed on the withdrawal page. What's up with that?

It just goes to show you what a shady business internet gambling is. I always visualize that I am dealing with the mafia or underworld figures who run casinos because they can't work in legitimate businesses. :eek:
 

liquuid_fusion

Meister Member
PABaccred
PABnorogue
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Nov 6, 2005
Location
UK
I certainly wouldn't be sending notarised documents to the Phillipines when the casino is based in Gibraltar.
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
It just goes to show you what a shady business internet gambling is. I always visualize that I am dealing with the mafia or underworld figures who run casinos because they can't work in legitimate businesses. :eek:
The Mob is legit compared to OG. Apologies to the Mob!!
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
The Mob is legit compared to OG. Apologies to the Mob!!

now Circus casino (another playtech) are asking to send the physical documents to Philippines. Just for 300 euro win. The arguments about this kind of shipment is not secure are not accepted- management insisting that this is the only way to get paid.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
now Circus casino (another playtech) are asking to send the physical documents to Philippines. Just for 300 euro win. The arguments about this kind of shipment is not secure are not accepted- management insisting that this is the only way to get paid.

This is why I am constantly on Playtech's case. WHY the Philipines, with all the known problems. They don't give a damn for the safety of the documents in TRANSIT, they only care about MONEY, and I'll bet the staff costs in the Philipines are much cheaper than in Gibraltar. We also have to rely on how well the systems in the Philipines allow proper vetting of the staff who will be handling the verification process, and the staff who work in the postal service.

With people being poor, they can be bought, and if it comes to a choice between being able to feed their children, or keeping the package from one of the "rich" nations secure, which will some choose.

India now processes a great deal of our private information, and is considered pretty secure, and the government there try hard to prevent a loss of confidence for fear of companies bailing out from their thriving call centre industry. Despite this, many investigations have found that criminal networks can (for a price) get hold of much of the personal data stored at these call centres. They either recruit existing staff with payments far in excess of their salary, or they get their own members into call centres by faking their credentials so that they pass vetting.

It would actually be safer to email the documents to the Philipines verification centre, since at least you cut out one source of interception, the local postal service, and only have to deal with the quality of staff at the verification offices.

The bad thing is that this is NEVER mentioned in the terms, and ONLY comes up when a player wins. If you decide €300 is not worth the risk of your information being stolen, the casino will simply take this for a confession of guilt, and believe it was right all along.

Of course, being listed here means that Playtech can be sued in ENGLAND if it manages to "leak" this secure information by virtue of the systems it has implemented. IF it says there is no other way, then it is fully responsible for any losses due to the poor choice of postal destination.

I wonder also if documents sent to Gibraltar just end up in the Philipines without us knowing about it.
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
This is why I am constantly on Playtech's case. WHY the Philipines, with all the known problems. They don't give a damn for the safety of the documents in TRANSIT, they only care about MONEY, and I'll bet the staff costs in the Philipines are much cheaper than in Gibraltar. We also have to rely on how well the systems in the Philipines allow proper vetting of the staff who will be handling the verification process, and the staff who work in the postal service.

With people being poor, they can be bought, and if it comes to a choice between being able to feed their children, or keeping the package from one of the "rich" nations secure, which will some choose.

India now processes a great deal of our private information, and is considered pretty secure, and the government there try hard to prevent a loss of confidence for fear of companies bailing out from their thriving call centre industry. Despite this, many investigations have found that criminal networks can (for a price) get hold of much of the personal data stored at these call centres. They either recruit existing staff with payments far in excess of their salary, or they get their own members into call centres by faking their credentials so that they pass vetting.

It would actually be safer to email the documents to the Philipines verification centre, since at least you cut out one source of interception, the local postal service, and only have to deal with the quality of staff at the verification offices.

The bad thing is that this is NEVER mentioned in the terms, and ONLY comes up when a player wins. If you decide €300 is not worth the risk of your information being stolen, the casino will simply take this for a confession of guilt, and believe it was right all along.

Of course, being listed here means that Playtech can be sued in ENGLAND if it manages to "leak" this secure information by virtue of the systems it has implemented. IF it says there is no other way, then it is fully responsible for any losses due to the poor choice of postal destination.

I wonder also if documents sent to Gibraltar just end up in the Philipines without us knowing about it.

I asked them what happens if documents are lost on the way and somebody will use my identity to make me harm. I also asked them about where my notarized docs will be stored and who will have an access to them...The stupid support guy (I am sorry to say that- but most of the support staff at the casinos make an impression of stupid persons-just because they don't have any decision-making rights- they act like kinda parrots saying the same meaningless phrases and words over and over again) so he told me that management decided that I need to send notarized docs and no other way out. Are 300 euro worthy of much bigger troubles in the future? Don't think so. Playtech should stop behaving like that! When we deposit at those casinos- we don't have any intention to send our documents over the several oceans to the unknown place!
 
Last edited:

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I asked them what happens if documents are lost on the way and somebody will use my identity to make me harm. I also asked them about where my notarized docs will be stored and who will have an access to them...The stupid support guy (I am sorry to say that- but most of the support staff at the casinos make an impression of stupid persons-just because they don't have any decision-making rights- they act like kinda parrots saying the same meaningless phrases and words over and over again) so he told me that management decided that I need to send notarized docs and no other way out. Are 300 euro worthy of much bigger troubles in the future? Don't think so. Playtech should stop behaving like that! When we deposit at those casinos- we don't have any intention to send our document over several oceans to the unknown place!

They are REQUIRED BY LAW to tell you how they will store and handle your personal data, this lot seem destined for the pit.
Check the smallprint in the general terms;)


EDIT:-

Here it is:-

24. Governing Law and Jurisdiction
24.1 You agree that your access to and use of the Services, Website(s), Software, the Information and the interpretation these Terms and Conditions shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of Gibraltar.
24.2 Any claim arising out of or in connection with these Terms and Conditions:
(i) if commenced by you, shall be referred to and finally resolved by arbitration in London in accordance with the London Court of International Arbitration (LCIA) Rules for the time being in force which rules are deemed to be incorporated by reference to this clause. The language of the arbitration shall be the English language.
(ii) if commenced by CASINO.COM, shall be either, at the sole option of CASINO.COM:
a) referred to and finally resolved by arbitration as per clause 24.2(i) above; or
b) For this purpose, you hereby irrevocably submit to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of Gibraltar, provided always that such submission shall not affect the right of CASINO.COM to take such legal action or proceedings in any other jurisdiction, nor shall the taking of such legal action or proceedings in any jurisdiction preclude CASINO.COM from taking such action or proceedings in any other jurisdiction.


I believe they are REQUIRED to have in place a privacy policy, and therefore are REQUIRED to state how your data is stored & processed. If not in Gibraltar itself, it must he handled at least as securely as specified under the laws of Gibraltar.

Complain to the GRA that they REFUSE to tell you how your data (documets) will be secured, handled, and stored; AND that they insist there is no other option available than to post them to the Philipines, and that they are REFUSING to allow you to send them to Gibraltar, or by the means actually specified on the website.

The terms DO cover for them requesting notarised documents, but the terms still allow these notarised documents to be sent by email, fax, or post to Gibraltar.

They could be sued for neglect if the information leaked whilst in their custody, and you could further sue them for damages caused by such a leak. This would have to be done in Gibraltar though.
 
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