Blackjack online: Random or Rigged?

[gobucs]

I'm a U.S. player. I've played Blackjack on several websites, and I've seen the same disturbing patterns on every single website. I've played PartyPoker (when it was legal in the US), Bodog casino, and Villento. There were some others, but I don't recall all of their names. These are the main three. The patterns that I'm referring to are numerous, but most notable is the fact that when I bet $1 or $5 a hand I win a reasonable number of those hands. But when I increase the bet to $100 or $200 a hand, I lose an unreasonable number of hands. I've literally played millions of hands and lost well over $100,000 playing Blackjack online. I'm convinced that I'm not getting a fair game. I see delays in the turn cards when a larger bet is made. Almost like the software is searching for a particular card to turn. It sounds crazy I know. But to sit through one session and see what I see on a reoccurring basis leaves me convinced that I'm not getting a fair game. I love Blackjack, it's the only game I care to play, but I don't think I'm ever going to find a fair game online. How can the same patterns exist on every site I've played on? Has anyone else had these issues? Can anyone give me the name of an online casino that accepts US players, and offers a fair game?
GoBucs

 

[ugaboga]

Have you tried live dealer blackjack?

 

[PSB]

he patterns that I'm referring to are numerous, but most notable is the fact that when I bet $1 or $5 a hand I win a reasonable number of those hands. But when I increase the bet to $100 or $200 a hand, I lose an unreasonable number of hands. I've literally played millions of hands and lost well over $100,000 playing Blackjack online. I'm convinced that I'm not getting a fair game.

gobucs, how can you verify that you've actually played millions of hands?

I have seen the pattern you mention with small samples, but have also received emails from casino support defending their RNG. Their explanations seem to make sense. Still there are plenty of players who join as new players, deposit $50 to start and walk away with $1500 cashouts. Yet I wonder the overall results of high stakes players who actually recorded all their results in a database/spread sheet of sorts.
Can you elaborate more on that front?
It also seems that $1-5 bets are more easily won in free mode...but increase to $100+ and suddenly the dealer "coincidentally" beats your KK with blackjack.

 

[SlotsWizard]

I understand your frustration, but I really think most of it boils down to perception.

I cannot count how many times I thought to myself "Self, that felt rigged!" but then I go back and analyze the game logs only to find that the results are surprisingly in line with expectation. I remember at a Rival casino after a streak of seemingly bad luck, I went and checked the logs... the total return was 99.92%, well in line with expectations. Results with Microgaming casinos are similar.

I would recommend restricting your play to casinos that offer you access to your game logs from within the software, without having to jump through hoops of fire to get them. This includes Rival and Microgaming. I'm not sure about others.

Also, call it quits while you're ahead. After a good run, don't start thinking that you can bet bigger and bigger and never experience an equal and opposite downturn in your luck... because you will, eventually, and that's got nothing to do with being rigged and everything to do with the combination of variance and the house edge.

When all else fails and you need some humor, read my New Blackjack Rules.

 

[lojo]

As well if you chart your play, not by return percentage, but by hands won, lost, or tied - and your 'big bet' sample is large enough - you should see very similar win/lose/push ratio.

But if you chart 10,000 $1,2,5 hands and only 50-100 $100-$300 hands, there can be a large skew, because the big bet sample will not be big enough to truly compare.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Even more hands needed

Greetings,

When I audit blackjack at on-line casinos, I look for wins/losses/pushes, and also fairness of first card, second card, draw cards, number of hands of each value for the player and dealer, and a host of other metrics (unmentioned to protect the security of the audits).

The monthly audit logs I see may have 500,000 to 1,000,000 hands at some casinos. Even then, I will see RTP's (return to player) between 95% and 102% with a lot of variation in between.

If the THEO (theoretical return to the player) of a blackjack game is 99.5%, I would not expect a reasonable convergence to that number with a simulation of fewer than 100 million hands. Most software programs that model blackjack to obtain numbers accurate to *two* decimal digits, will run for 1 billion hands (or more). For example, see www.qfit.com . The long run is *REALLY LONG* for blackjack.

Based on my personal experience auditing online blackjack, for both casino clients and for players who doubt their fairness, in every case the game offered has been fair. Still, I remain vigilant in my audits. Likewise, you should be vigilant and cautious in your play, but also take into account the incredible variance that happens in these games.

--Eliot

 

[aka23]

I'm a U.S. player. I've played Blackjack on several websites, and I've seen the same disturbing patterns on every single website. I've played PartyPoker...

In the case of Party Casino, the fairness has been questioned by players quite a few times. In the warning on my site, I list the following dealer upcard stats. The chance of this distribution occurring randomly is quite low. I've also noticed the issue that you mentioned with bet raises, although I didn't attempt enough raises to confirm that it was more than random chance.

Dealer 2 -- 234
Dealer 3 -- 177
Dealer 4 -- 128
Dealer 5 -- 323
Dealer 6 -- 178
Dealer 7 -- 261
Dealer 8 -- 323
Dealer 9 -- 321
Dealer T -- 355
Dealer J -- 291
Dealer Q -- 332
Dealer K -- 305
Dealer A -- 285

Having said that, many players do well with this software (former iGlobalMedia) and have results near expectations. Bodog and Villento use different software, and I am not aware of similar issues with their softwares.

But when I increase the bet to $100 or $200 a hand, I lose an unreasonable number of hands.

Via personal play, I have an excellent history with large bets (as much as 400 per hand) on Microgaming software. I am definitely on the positive side of variance.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

In the case of Party Casino ...

Dealer 2 -- 234
Dealer 3 -- 177
Dealer 4 -- 128
Dealer 5 -- 323
Dealer 6 -- 178
Dealer 7 -- 261
Dealer 8 -- 323
Dealer 9 -- 321
Dealer T -- 355
Dealer J -- 291
Dealer Q -- 332
Dealer K -- 305
Dealer A -- 285

If these numbers are accurate, the odds are roughly 1 in 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 that this (or a worse result) will occur purely by chance. (1.2094E-40).

I have no way of verifying your numbers, I am just telling you the results of a simple chi-squared test.

--Eliot

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Party Gaming quick blackjack audit

Based on the post by aka23, I decided to log on to my Party Gaming account and play blackjack to investigate "first card" bias.

I played their Blackjack - Single Player (Las Vegas Downtown Blackjack) game, in practice mode, flat betting $1 per hand. My play started at 6:05 PM and lasted until 7:20 PM. During this time I played 489 hands and recorded the dealer up-card for each of these hands. These results were:

2 -- 32
3 -- 41
4 -- 36
5 -- 31
6 -- 30
7 -- 36
8 -- 41
9 -- 38
T -- 50
J -- 40
Q -- 38
K -- 36
A -- 40

These results are statistically normal. The expected number for each card was 37.62. The chi-squared statistic is 8.75, which means these results are effectively random. I find no "first card" bias in this game, as I played it, at Party Gaming casino.

--Eliot

 

[aka23]

The numbers I quoted are based on data posted on another forum. He played 3513 hands of Party multi-player blackjack in June 2007, flat betting $1 per hand. He lost ~$1000 over the course of this wagering, then analyzed the game logs and posted the upcard data. He probably still has the game logs, so he may be able to send them to you. I'll PM you contact data.

 

[gobucs]

You know guys, I appreciate all of your feedback and your statistics, but I don't think it's nearly that complicated. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think so. Last night is a perfect example of something that happens way to often to be called random. I spent the last three days very slowly working my way up to $1100 in my Villento account. During that time I would bet from $1 to $50 but mostly in the $10 to $25 range. Then last night, I increased my wagers to $100 to $200, and as always happens the house went on a rediculous winning streak. I get 20 the house gets 21. I have 15 looking at a 6, the house sucks out, over and over again. I bet $200 I lose, I bet $1 I win. It is not an exageration to say that this happens every single time. I cannot ever recall a time when I increased my wager amount to $100 or $200 and went on my own winning streak. There is definitely something rotten in Denmark here folks, and I'm just shocked that I don't see more complaints like this. Maybe it is me. Maybe I'm hallucinating the whole experience. All I know is that to sit and watch one of these sessions would leave little doubt to anyone that this software is rigged, these online operators are criminals, and the rest of us are just suckers throwing our money into the fire, while the owners of these bogus operations sit on white sandy beaches sipping their Pina Coladas.
I'm done pissing my money away.
Go Bucs

 

[scuba44]

I've noticed the same pattern & Black Fridays

Hello gobucs,
I've noticed the same pattern with bodog and grand prive casinos. However, I have no evidence to indicate rigging on higher bets, and the mathematics is beyond my limited understanding. I have noticed another disturbing pattern in these casinos. When I build up my stake with small blackjack bets from Saturday through Thursday, I usually lose it all back to the casino when I play on Fridays making bigger bets. Ergo-I don't play on Fridays anymore. I'm beginning to feel that I only should play blackjack at live tables which, obviously, is so much less accessible and convenient for me.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Just so you know...

Greetings,

When I audit, I filter the overall data into a separate file containing wagers above x (x varies from time to time) and run my audit tests on that file in addition to the overall file. This technique is part of the "vast unknown" of my audits, and I don't want to give up any more about it.

There is no statistical evidence that online casino blackjack software favors wins at the lower levels or losses at the higher levels for the major software providers.

I wish I could tell you more, but I have seen my share of big players win big.

--Eliot

 

[lots0]

I sat in Harrah's casino (Reno) one night and watched a blackjack dealer pull 16 21's in less than 30 minutes...

Funny, but no one watching or playing even suggested that the dealer or the casino were cheating.

I think it had something to do with the random nature of the cards.

 

[jas2587]

What i don't understand is if you think they
are cheating you why do you continue to
feed them your money??

I play mostly slots if I dont hit good by the 10th spin I switch games
ive played Tx Hold Em an came in 1st several times
No I will not name the site as it is not a casino
it is a pay to play yearly but that is beside the point

If I am losing I get out while I still have cash


Good Luck

Cindy

 

[Westland Bowl]

In September, I re-started playing blackjack online after a year off except for one deposit in January that quickly evaporated. Out of a total of $400 in deposits, I've withdrawn about $3,000 and still have $500 left to wager with. I mostly play Vegas Strip Blackjack which the Wizard of Odds state should have a win percentage of 43.31%. I keep my results on a spreadsheet of hands played, wins, losses and pushes. I also calculate the percentage won for that session, a 5-session moving average of win percentage, a 10-session moving average, and a 50-session moving average. I also break up the sessions into 35-hand units for a more even look at what is happening.

If the win-percentage averages are high, like 46% or higher over the past 5 or more sessions, I know I'm bound for a low-win-percentage session(s). I assume the casino doesn't want to get too out-of-bounds with their win percentage (obviously!) So I play cautiously at that time. Well, it's best to play cautiously at ALL times!

Since re-starting, I've played over 8,000 hands and the win percentage since starting is 43.50%. At one time the win percentage was almost 49% for the 10-session average and 45.50% for the 50-session average. Very high numbers. Subsequent to that, the next 50+ sessions were below 43% (on average) in order to bring back the overall percentage since starting back to the norm 43.31%.
-----------------------------------
Ok...some online casinos I've deposited with start out being very aggressive with low win-percentages. I can only speculate why. But I'm sure if you complain, they would say that you started out on the low-end of variance. In any case, the overall wins and cards drawn will eventually pull to the definition of fair randomness. However, I'm not willing to wait until I've played 100 million hands to determine if I would continue to play at that casino.
------------------------------------
Third point.....I do believe that the win percentage and cards drawn are fairly random. However, I also believe the casino software "learns" your style of play. I tend to up my bet after a win rather than martingale after each loss. After winning and withdrawing over $1000, I started to see more LOSING double-downs and splits after a win. It appeared it learned that I up my bets after a win soooo....ta da! In response, I shifted my strategy to wait until a get TWO wins in a row, then up my bet. I avoided many losing dd's and splits but after a while, I started to get losing dd/splits after the double wins. So I learned to shift how I play depending on what I observed happening more often.
-----------------------------------
My forth point has to do with the insidious nature of greed which caused me a lot more gambling losses than anything a reputable casino could do. But this post is already too long.

 

[bernynhel]

I'm not a huge BJ player, but I'm a big online player and have a multi-decade history in Las Vegas and the Gardena, CA card rooms and have observed, unscientifically, granted, a LOT of cards fly. That said, at a BJ table at a poker site that I won't even bother mentioning (AP) I did notate the following after witnessing the same sequence enough times previously to recognize the onset of a suspiciously too-familiar sequence. For 9 hands in a row, I'm dealt crap 12-16 and every time the dealer is also showing crap, a 2-6 and no matter what I did, the dealer would draw the following 2 hands: 2 cards for 21, 3 hands: 1 card for 21, 2 hands: 3 cards for 21, 1 hand: 4 cards for 21 and in 1 hand: 6 cards for 21. With live shoe or a deck of cards? Sure. That could happen. Just as likely I could spot Tiger Woods 2 strokes and still beat him at a round of golf, blind-folded with 1 arm tied behind my back. I just wouldn't bet on it.

 

[BigSD]

Bj

Blackjack is just such an amazing game that variance throws up some strange results. If you take a standard 99.5% game and you flat bet just with basic strategy (no card counting) 9 to 5, 6 days a week for two months. You have a 25% chance of being up at the end of the two months.

Quite an amazing game and probably the reason it will always be around.

MCCE.

 

[lojo]

I would love to see some scatter charts of Eliots work; no methods of divining, just the results. I look for clumps and clusters in everything

 

[hakapuku]

You know guys, I appreciate all of your feedback and your statistics, but I don't think it's nearly that complicated. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think so. Last night is a perfect example of something that happens way to often to be called random. I spent the last three days very slowly working my way up to $1100 in my Villento account. During that time I would bet from $1 to $50 but mostly in the $10 to $25 range. Then last night, I increased my wagers to $100 to $200, and as always happens the house went on a rediculous winning streak. I get 20 the house gets 21. I have 15 looking at a 6, the house sucks out, over and over again. I bet $200 I lose, I bet $1 I win. It is not an exageration to say that this happens every single time. I cannot ever recall a time when I increased my wager amount to $100 or $200 and went on my own winning streak. There is definitely something rotten in Denmark here folks, and I'm just shocked that I don't see more complaints like this. Maybe it is me. Maybe I'm hallucinating the whole experience. All I know is that to sit and watch one of these sessions would leave little doubt to anyone that this software is rigged, these online operators are criminals, and the rest of us are just suckers throwing our money into the fire, while the owners of these bogus operations sit on white sandy beaches sipping their Pina Coladas.
I'm done pissing my money away.
Go Bucs

Hello!

I am sure that Microgaming casino software was rigged in October. In November i quit playing there at all so i know nothing about November. All the table games were rigged in October. I will not provide you with the necessary logs, just believe my words. Can you imagine that somebody is playing roulette betting on red or black and receiving constantly 10 and more losing streaks in a raw? And never, never receive even one winning streak like that. I am talkin about thousands of bets. The same losing streaks in bj,baccarat, 3 card poker etc. I am not even talking about slots- they are empty. I am sure that if 10 online players will now deposit 250$ at microgaming casino each and bet 50$ on black or red- then 8 or 9 of them will have a negative result after 5 bets.
Now, to prove that Microgaming software is rigged, we need millions and millions of at least 50$ bets. I don't have that much money to bet, so it is impossible for me to prove,for example, that microgaming Bj and Roulette have 10% house edge when playing relatively big bets.
I don't also believe any consultants. We all remember consultants of Enron.

 

[SlotsWizard]

Microgaming casino software was rigged in October

:sob: Oh no, say it ain't so! :sob:

I will not provide you with the necessary logs, just believe my words.

Because you are all-knowing?

I don't also believe any consultants. We all remember consultants of Enron.

Therefore you don't use strategy guides since they were created by consultants such as the Wizard of Odds; as a result, you experience worse results than what is mathematically expected. Yeah... damn those consultants!

 

[unrealzeal]

Greetings,
... I will see RTP's (return to player) between 95% and 102% with a lot of variation in between.
--Eliot

Wow! I wish I could have gotten a 95% return...

I have played at party poker briefly and the one thing I noticed is that its up-card was an Ace very frequently. But the thing I want to say, and get comments on, is us US players getting rooked by these casinos and poker rooms because our stupid law has blocked any legal recourse we might have had.

I played BJ at sportsbook.com for a year with a overall return of 101.7%. My strategy was to play three hands at once of varying amounts, and use the small bets to win the big bets. (For example, if there were few tens on board I would keep hitting on the small hand until a ten showed - even if i had 19).

The day after our law took effect, I got taken to the cleaners by the game. Lost a mint because the dealer would not bust no matter what two cards it had. I re-deposited and my luck did not change. I complained and they sent me my returns. Somehow my payout had sunk to 93.7%. I didn't play again, but after winning on sports betting I tried my luck at Pai Gow. I got cleaned out again, and I decided to bet $1 and count how many wins by me and the dealer. Tried to play 1000 hands for a good sample but only made it to about 740 after the dealer won 2 of every three hands.

Anyone know of a fair site us US players can play?

 

[lots0]

I am sure that Microgaming casino software was rigged in October. In November i quit playing there at all so i know nothing about November. All the table games were rigged in October. I will not provide you with the necessary logs, just believe my words.

I find the idea that someone would accuse a business of a serious crime and then refuse to provide the evidence... a little bit unconvincing, to say the least.

Why would anyone not want to provide the "proof" of their accusations?


You want to see how much variance there is in Blackjack.
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
It has a RNG... Just like the ones in the casino.

 

[Keyser]

This thread reminds me of ...

This thread reminds me of people at B&M blackjack tables who get upset at you because you hit when they think you should stand, then blame you when the dealer doesnt bust because you took away the bust card that they KNEW was otherwise going to the dealer

They remember all of the decisions that went against them and none that went for them.

 

[BBKPoker]

You've named three different sites that all have frequent RNG certification and fair play review by multiple different 3rd party sources. Rigged software is exposed almost immediately on this and other sites by vigilant players, Villento (Microgaming), Party (proprietary) and Bodog (Boss/RTG) all run on platforms that have accepted millions of wagers, and who's payout reports show no statistical aberration except when examined over small sample sizes. Whether you increase or decrease your bet size does not affect your payouts on any of these sites. It is important to keep in mind that the ~.5% house edge that blackjack has is only true when you are playing perfect strategy. Something that you can find at Wizard of Odds' website. It is also important to keep in mind that almost no one on this forum has played nearly enough hands of blackjack to where their actual loss rate approaches an adequate enough sample size where your wins/losses over time would come close to regressing toward a true mean result inclusive of varying bet sizes. When we analyze and determine that software actually IS rigged, Casinova, Caisno1x2, Lucky Trump, etc, it is because the results are so skewed over a short sample size that it is so mathematically improbable that it is impossible. If you'd like to post about 1000 consecutive hands of blackjack hand history (not just cherry picking the hands you want analyzed) you could pretty easily tell if something is obviously flawed/rigged/erroneous.

Anything less than that is generally useless experiential bad beat stories.

 

[SlotsWizard]

You want to see how much variance there is in Blackjack.
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
It has a RNG... Just like the ones in the casino.

This game has GOT to be rigged. I played a total of ONE round (of three hands). The dealer had a 2. I busted on the first hand and stood on 18 on the other two. The dealer's hole card was a 9 and then he was dealt a 10-pointer, making 21.

I guess the naysayers were right. I played ONE hand and the dealer got 21. Talk about skewed results!



Everything's rigged. They're all out to get us!

 

[unrealzeal]

Stats

Ok guys...instead of giving anecdotal evidence, I decided to log all of my plays. I had stated that in my previous post, the dealer seemed to not bust at all, and I don't know if I mentioned that the dealer got Blackjack more often than I. Here are the results, playing real money, three $1 hands on the same table.---My objective was to tally the number of BJs for the dealer compared to myself, and to record every hit card by the dealer when it had 16 (it was too much work to count the other hit cards)
---# of rounds was 568, so the dealer had 568 hands and I had 1704.
---# of Blackjacks for dealer: 36 (6.3%)
---# of BJs for me: 19 (1.1%)

Now get ready for this

--- The dealer had 16 92 times and only busted on 28 of these (30.4%)!!!!!

Now I know what you guys are thinking. You don't believe it and want to see my play logs, right. Oh, I am sorry but the website will not provide it.

So here is my warning: DO NOT PLAY Sportsbook.com casino!!! I would like to see it on the blacklist here and everywhere else.

Oh, by the way, as a testament to my incredible skill, I finished up $9 for this session. Thats because when I had 12 or 13 (which is just about every hand) I doubled down, and I split pairs no matter what. You would not believe how effective splitting 5's are when the deck favors low cards!

 

[SlotsWizard]

when I had 12 or 13 (which is just about every hand) I doubled down, and I split pairs no matter what.

If this is how you normally play, I'm not surprised at your poor results.

However, I can't comment on the fairness of Sportsbook.com's games one way or the other... though I notice that they use "World Gaming" software which I don't believe has (or had) the best reputation in the World.

I tend to avoid non-casino sites for playing casino games. There have been so many threads lately about people playing blackjack at a poker room, blackjack at a sportsbook, slots at a bingo site, etc. I prefer to match up the games I play at sites that focus primarily on those kinds of games (such as playing blackjack at a casino).

If I were you I would avoid playing at Sportsbook.com's casino purely based on the fact that they use World Gaming software, which has some of the worst house edges you can find. Their blackjack has a theoretical house edge of 0.46% and I just played in free mode and didn't encounter anything out of the ordinary... but I still wouldn't trust them with my money.

 

[BBKPoker]

So here is my warning: DO NOT PLAY Sportsbook.com casino!!! I would like to see it on the blacklist here and everywhere else.

Oh, by the way, as a testament to my incredible skill, I finished up $9 for this session. Thats because when I had 12 or 13 (which is just about every hand) I doubled down, and I split pairs no matter what. You would not believe how effective splitting 5's are when the deck favors low cards!

I wouldn't play on sportsbook.com, period. They are owned by Bet Royal/SBG Global, the same ownership group that got rogued here for threatening to kill a casino player who was rude to them, if I recall correctly, and are in the middle of a pretty big scandal involving confiscating winnings from players who bet correlated parlays, as well as betting the picks of some Cincinnati radio host. That being said, their software is used by a number of sportsbook/casinos and is most likely legit (didn't spend the time to look up their RNG certifications, but their software is used by a number of larger books).

That being said, I'd blame your poor results and statistical skewing on your very poor, inconsistent, blackjack strategy, and thus, it is nearly impossible to determine the true edge the house has over you by making horrendously sub-optimal plays such as splitting all pairs and doubling down twelve and thirteen.

 

[unrealzeal]

thanks

Thanks for your help guys. I know I wasn't playing optimal strategy but I KNOW that those cards are rigged, and therefore optimal strategy will not work. I would have lost big if I had played the right way. As I have stated before, my payout before the switch was high, and I made about 3K over the course of a year. I was blind-sided by this program and lost it all back, and, of course I want some sort of satisfaction, if not my money back!

So then, where can a US player play a fair game of BJ and a legit sportsbook that pays on wagers?????? I have tried the one recommended by this site but none of them accepts US players.

And again, your advice is appreciated.

 

[SlotsWizard]

Thanks for your help guys. I know I wasn't playing optimal strategy but I KNOW that those cards are rigged, and therefore optimal strategy will not work. I would have lost big if I had played the right way. As I have stated before, my payout before the switch was high, and I made about 3K over the course of a year. I was blind-sided by this program and lost it all back, and, of course I want some sort of satisfaction, if not my money back!

So then, where can a US player play a fair game of BJ and a legit sportsbook that pays on wagers?????? I have tried the one recommended by this site but none of them accepts US players.

And again, your advice is appreciated.

Check your Private Messages...

 

[djackson]

Thanks for your help guys. I know I wasn't playing optimal strategy but I KNOW that those cards are rigged, and therefore optimal strategy will not work. I would have lost big if I had played the right way. As I have stated before, my payout before the switch was high, and I made about 3K over the course of a year. I was blind-sided by this program and lost it all back, and, of course I want some sort of satisfaction, if not my money back!

So then, where can a US player play a fair game of BJ and a legit sportsbook that pays on wagers?????? I have tried the one recommended by this site but none of them accepts US players.

And again, your advice is appreciated.

Quit while you are ahead.

 

[aka23]

--- The dealer had 16 92 times and only busted on 28 of these (30.4%)!!!!!

Treating dealer bust as a binomial variable, the chance of 28 or fewer is on the order of 10^-9... very rare. Having said that, I have plenty of referred player win/loss data from World Gaming casinos in this group, and the net player results fall near expectations. I've played over 20,000 hands of blackjack with World Gaming software, using optimal strategy on all hands, and my results are also near expectations.

 

[lojo]

Looks like its time for a few folks to quit gambling, or else get their heads examined for playing games they 'know' are rigged. I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad. But I will say, 'gimme a brrrrreak'!!!

 

[aka23]

I wouldn't play on sportsbook.com, period. They are owned by Bet Royal/SBG Global, the same ownership group that got rogued here for threatening to kill a casino player who was rude to them, if I recall correctly, and are in the middle of a pretty big scandal involving confiscating winnings from players who bet correlated parlays, as well as betting the picks of some Cincinnati radio host.

I haven't seen the Jazette/Jassy group, which owns sportsbook.com linked to Bet Royal/SBG Global before, although I wouldn't be shocked to learn of a connection. There are indeed risks with this group. There was a major slow payment issue earlier this year, with some USA payments taking months. It seems to be resolved now. Some players were credited $100 to compensate for the problems.

 

[BBKPoker]

I haven't seen the Jazette/Jassy group, which owns sportsbook.com linked to Bet Royal/SBG Global before, although I wouldn't be shocked to learn of a connection. There are indeed risks with this group. There was a major slow payment issue earlier this year, with some USA payments taking months. It seems to be resolved now. Some players were credited $100 to compensate for the problems.

I was wrong on this one, actually. Apologies. They are not co-owned, but they were both downgraded to D- around the end of October for similar tactics. Bet Royal got in trouble with SBR for stalling payments and stealing wins from bettors who used a sports handicapping service (a very standard and well-accepted service) Sportsbook.com was stealing money from coordinate parlays that I referenced earlier. Associated books with Sportsbook.com are:


24CaratSportsbook
52Bet
A1Casino
ABCsportsbook
Aces
AllBetsPlacedHere
AllHorseRacing
AllProSportsbook
AllStar
AmericanWagers
AtHomeSportsbook
AztecGaming
BetInVegas
BetOnUsa
BetUSA
BubbasCasino
ClubVipCasino
EastCoastGamingClub
ESPNsportsbook
FieldGoal
Gambling.net
GlobalSportsNetwork
Hollywood
HorseBetting
House-of-Gambling
InterChamps
i-Sportsbook
Iwager
JackPotPlusCasino
KingPin
Linesmaker
MySportsbook
Parier
PlaceMyBet
PlayByPlay
PlayersOnly
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[hakapuku]

I find the idea that someone would accuse a business of a serious crime and then refuse to provide the evidence... a little bit unconvincing, to say the least.

Why would anyone not want to provide the "proof" of their accusations?


You want to see how much variance there is in Blackjack.
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
It has a RNG... Just like the ones in the casino.

As i told in my previous post- i need millions and millions of dollars ,which i don't have, in order to prove mathematically that microgaming casino software is rigged (not always but sometimes, some periods of time). If my log will contain 10.000 bets on roulette black/red bets- and the house edge will be around 10% in the favor of the house- still it will not be enough to prove cheating. It will be called variance. To really prove the cheating here one needs millions of bets. Since an individual player is unable to do this work it seems that there is no way to prove cheating here. Which means? According to you this means that the software is fair! And i want to ask you - did you play at Microgaming casinos in October? How much did you play? What games, what results? And i did play there in October. And my results were awful. Not just bad. They were unbelievable! And i am sure that there many online players out there who will support me with this.
If only hundred of us could unite and make a really big testing for the software.

 

[jas2587]

Do ya really think you should be making a statment of this kind
without proof (( I think in the 1st post you said I will not show the proof))

microgaming casino software is rigged (not always but sometimes, some periods of time).

that is quite a statement with no Proof
Kinda blowing in the wind here eh

Cindy

This was directed at hakapuku {{{I am sure that Microgaming casino software was rigged in October. In November i quit playing there at all so i know nothing about November. All the table games were rigged in October. I will not provide you with the necessary logs, just believe my words}}}

 

[hakapuku]

Do ya really think you should be making a statment of this kind
without proof (( I think in the 1st post you said I will not show the proof))

microgaming casino software is rigged (not always but sometimes, some periods of time).

that is quite a statement with no Proof
Kinda blowing in the wind here eh

Cindy

This was directed at hakapuku {{{I am sure that Microgaming casino software was rigged in October. In November i quit playing there at all so i know nothing about November. All the table games were rigged in October. I will not provide you with the necessary logs, just believe my words}}}

And what is the proof of the opposite statement: Microgaming software is not rigged? Do you have any prove for that? I don't. And in my opinion it is rigged from time to time.
P.S. I now checked at www.roxypalacecasino.com the last time when their software was audited by so called independant auditors from Pricewatercoopers...It was the first half of 2006 year!

 

[jas2587]

I didn't say it was or it wasn't
I am just saying if you are gonna say
it is rigged you should back it up

Cindy

 

[lots0]

To really prove the cheating here one needs millions of bets.

So why then, are you accusing anyone of cheating without the proof?

Microgaming software is not rigged? Do you have any prove for that? I don't.

No one here made any statement about MG not being rigged.

It is YOUR statement hakapuku that MG is cheating (or was cheating in October) that people are questioning.

It seems to me that if want to go around accusing business of crimes you should be prepared to provide proof or evidence. If you don't want to (or can't) provide the proof or evidence then you should expect people to question you. Especially when you make statements that infer you have proof, then you refuse to provide it.

Absolute Poker was caught cheating with far less than a million hands being analyzed. All it took was a few players that provided their hand histories (logs) for public viewing.

You wanna take MG down for cheating... cool.
But your gonna hafta PROVE IT or at the very least provide some evidence and not just keep ranting about it.

 

[aka23]

As i told in my previous post- i need millions and millions of dollars ,which i don't have, in order to prove mathematically that microgaming casino software is rigged (not always but sometimes, some periods of time). If my log will contain 10.000 bets on roulette black/red bets- and the house edge will be around 10% in the favor of the house- still it will not be enough to prove cheating. It will be called variance. To really prove the cheating here one needs millions of bets.

You do not need millions of bets and "millions of dollars" to show unfair software. As a credible example, the data Wizard of Odds used to show unfair play at Casino Bar only included a few hundred samples. A few hundred samples was enough to show a 1 in 238 billion chance.

The futher the results are from normal, the fewer samples you need to show unnatural software. In your example with a 10% house edge in roulette (I'll assume single zero) over 10 thousand bets, I estimate near a 1 in 1 trillion chance of the distribution occurring randomly. It could not simply be dismissed as typical variance.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

...To really prove the cheating here one needs millions of bets. ....

This is false. All one needs is a chi-squared (or other) statistic that is sufficiently skewed as to make flawed software, cheating, or malice more likely the cause than any other reasonable cause.

For example, Absolute Poker was caught by sampling under 100 hands.

Likewise, if a coin is tossed 100 times and came up heads each time, that would easily be sufficient to assume the coin was "two headed" as the most likely explanation.

Statisticians really do understand when millions or billions of hands are needed (for example, to accurately simulate the edge on blackjack to 2 decimal places), and when just a few thousand hands are needed (to check if the dealer is getting too many blackjacks or the player too few).

It may seem otherwise, but from purely the mathematical perspective, there are lots of highly trained and watchful eyes protecting players and insuring fair games.

--Eliot

 

[Westland Bowl]

I generally do not trust "chi" numbers to determine whether a fair game is being played. You can do that with brick and mortar casinos but online casinos have software that can draw "random" cards but still you end up losing or pushing way over expected results even with perfect basic strategy.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Up to you

With regard to your statement:

I generally do not trust "chi" numbers to determine whether a fair game is being played ...

Is there a particular blackjack game at a particular online casino you don't trust, and believe a testing method other than chi-squared testing should be used? I will do this for you, if you like. I agree with your concern about chi-squared.

--Eliot

 

[Westland Bowl]

Eliot, I ended up with your unedited posting for some reason- the one where you offered to do some testing...so since you edited it, I didn't use that one.

I just joined a new casino and in the first two 40-hand sessions I've played, my winning percentage was just below 27% when mathematically it should be 41-43%. The cards-drawn chi factors were below 5, meaning they were pretty 'random'. I know that the more sessions I play, the more the average win percentage should move up.....if they want to keep their 'reputable' reputation.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

With regard to your statement:



Is there a particular blackjack game at a particular online casino you don't trust, and believe a testing method other than chi-squared testing should be used? I will do this for you, if you like. I agree with your concern about chi-squared.

--Eliot

I am willing to retain your services (pay you) to test the fairness of a rather new casino's BJ game. I am familiar with your credentials and even caught a minor typo in the first publication of "The Blackjack Zone" approx. 2 years ago. (I did inform the nice lady at the publishing company from which I ordered copies of the book). Thanks,NV

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Forum rules

From the forum rules:

1.11 - Please do not exploit this board to promote your own personal agenda...

I just want to point out that if I make an offer here to investigate a specific allegation, that offer is pro bono on behalf of the online community and is not a soliciation for business.

--Eliot

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Mr. Jacobson, I hope no one would consider your goodwill gesture to the forum in the wrong perspective on account of my post. I have previously retained the services of other well known professionals in the gambling industry as required including attorney Bob Nersesian. If my prior post causes anyone to wrongfully question any other parties intent, then mods please disregard and/or remove my post above. Thank You,Garry!

 

[GrandMaster]

I generally do not trust "chi" numbers to determine whether a fair game is being played. You can do that with brick and mortar casinos but online casinos have software that can draw "random" cards but still you end up losing or pushing way over expected results even with perfect basic strategy.

Chi^2 is only a statistical method, you can also apply it to the frequencies of hands won/lost/pushed or anything else you wish.