Blackjack online: Random or Rigged?

[SlotsWizard]

You want to see how much variance there is in Blackjack.
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
It has a RNG... Just like the ones in the casino.

This game has GOT to be rigged. I played a total of ONE round (of three hands). The dealer had a 2. I busted on the first hand and stood on 18 on the other two. The dealer's hole card was a 9 and then he was dealt a 10-pointer, making 21.

I guess the naysayers were right. I played ONE hand and the dealer got 21. Talk about skewed results!



Everything's rigged. They're all out to get us!

 

[unrealzeal]

Stats

Ok guys...instead of giving anecdotal evidence, I decided to log all of my plays. I had stated that in my previous post, the dealer seemed to not bust at all, and I don't know if I mentioned that the dealer got Blackjack more often than I. Here are the results, playing real money, three $1 hands on the same table.---My objective was to tally the number of BJs for the dealer compared to myself, and to record every hit card by the dealer when it had 16 (it was too much work to count the other hit cards)
---# of rounds was 568, so the dealer had 568 hands and I had 1704.
---# of Blackjacks for dealer: 36 (6.3%)
---# of BJs for me: 19 (1.1%)

Now get ready for this

--- The dealer had 16 92 times and only busted on 28 of these (30.4%)!!!!!

Now I know what you guys are thinking. You don't believe it and want to see my play logs, right. Oh, I am sorry but the website will not provide it.

So here is my warning: DO NOT PLAY Sportsbook.com casino!!! I would like to see it on the blacklist here and everywhere else.

Oh, by the way, as a testament to my incredible skill, I finished up $9 for this session. Thats because when I had 12 or 13 (which is just about every hand) I doubled down, and I split pairs no matter what. You would not believe how effective splitting 5's are when the deck favors low cards!

 

[SlotsWizard]

when I had 12 or 13 (which is just about every hand) I doubled down, and I split pairs no matter what.

If this is how you normally play, I'm not surprised at your poor results.

However, I can't comment on the fairness of Sportsbook.com's games one way or the other... though I notice that they use "World Gaming" software which I don't believe has (or had) the best reputation in the World.

I tend to avoid non-casino sites for playing casino games. There have been so many threads lately about people playing blackjack at a poker room, blackjack at a sportsbook, slots at a bingo site, etc. I prefer to match up the games I play at sites that focus primarily on those kinds of games (such as playing blackjack at a casino).

If I were you I would avoid playing at Sportsbook.com's casino purely based on the fact that they use World Gaming software, which has some of the worst house edges you can find. Their blackjack has a theoretical house edge of 0.46% and I just played in free mode and didn't encounter anything out of the ordinary... but I still wouldn't trust them with my money.

 

[BBKPoker]

So here is my warning: DO NOT PLAY Sportsbook.com casino!!! I would like to see it on the blacklist here and everywhere else.

Oh, by the way, as a testament to my incredible skill, I finished up $9 for this session. Thats because when I had 12 or 13 (which is just about every hand) I doubled down, and I split pairs no matter what. You would not believe how effective splitting 5's are when the deck favors low cards!

I wouldn't play on sportsbook.com, period. They are owned by Bet Royal/SBG Global, the same ownership group that got rogued here for threatening to kill a casino player who was rude to them, if I recall correctly, and are in the middle of a pretty big scandal involving confiscating winnings from players who bet correlated parlays, as well as betting the picks of some Cincinnati radio host. That being said, their software is used by a number of sportsbook/casinos and is most likely legit (didn't spend the time to look up their RNG certifications, but their software is used by a number of larger books).

That being said, I'd blame your poor results and statistical skewing on your very poor, inconsistent, blackjack strategy, and thus, it is nearly impossible to determine the true edge the house has over you by making horrendously sub-optimal plays such as splitting all pairs and doubling down twelve and thirteen.

 

[unrealzeal]

thanks

Thanks for your help guys. I know I wasn't playing optimal strategy but I KNOW that those cards are rigged, and therefore optimal strategy will not work. I would have lost big if I had played the right way. As I have stated before, my payout before the switch was high, and I made about 3K over the course of a year. I was blind-sided by this program and lost it all back, and, of course I want some sort of satisfaction, if not my money back!

So then, where can a US player play a fair game of BJ and a legit sportsbook that pays on wagers?????? I have tried the one recommended by this site but none of them accepts US players.

And again, your advice is appreciated.

 

[SlotsWizard]

Thanks for your help guys. I know I wasn't playing optimal strategy but I KNOW that those cards are rigged, and therefore optimal strategy will not work. I would have lost big if I had played the right way. As I have stated before, my payout before the switch was high, and I made about 3K over the course of a year. I was blind-sided by this program and lost it all back, and, of course I want some sort of satisfaction, if not my money back!

So then, where can a US player play a fair game of BJ and a legit sportsbook that pays on wagers?????? I have tried the one recommended by this site but none of them accepts US players.

And again, your advice is appreciated.

Check your Private Messages...

 

[djackson]

Thanks for your help guys. I know I wasn't playing optimal strategy but I KNOW that those cards are rigged, and therefore optimal strategy will not work. I would have lost big if I had played the right way. As I have stated before, my payout before the switch was high, and I made about 3K over the course of a year. I was blind-sided by this program and lost it all back, and, of course I want some sort of satisfaction, if not my money back!

So then, where can a US player play a fair game of BJ and a legit sportsbook that pays on wagers?????? I have tried the one recommended by this site but none of them accepts US players.

And again, your advice is appreciated.

Quit while you are ahead.

 

[aka23]

--- The dealer had 16 92 times and only busted on 28 of these (30.4%)!!!!!

Treating dealer bust as a binomial variable, the chance of 28 or fewer is on the order of 10^-9... very rare. Having said that, I have plenty of referred player win/loss data from World Gaming casinos in this group, and the net player results fall near expectations. I've played over 20,000 hands of blackjack with World Gaming software, using optimal strategy on all hands, and my results are also near expectations.

 

[lojo]

Looks like its time for a few folks to quit gambling, or else get their heads examined for playing games they 'know' are rigged. I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad. But I will say, 'gimme a brrrrreak'!!!

 

[aka23]

I wouldn't play on sportsbook.com, period. They are owned by Bet Royal/SBG Global, the same ownership group that got rogued here for threatening to kill a casino player who was rude to them, if I recall correctly, and are in the middle of a pretty big scandal involving confiscating winnings from players who bet correlated parlays, as well as betting the picks of some Cincinnati radio host.

I haven't seen the Jazette/Jassy group, which owns sportsbook.com linked to Bet Royal/SBG Global before, although I wouldn't be shocked to learn of a connection. There are indeed risks with this group. There was a major slow payment issue earlier this year, with some USA payments taking months. It seems to be resolved now. Some players were credited $100 to compensate for the problems.

 

[BBKPoker]

I haven't seen the Jazette/Jassy group, which owns sportsbook.com linked to Bet Royal/SBG Global before, although I wouldn't be shocked to learn of a connection. There are indeed risks with this group. There was a major slow payment issue earlier this year, with some USA payments taking months. It seems to be resolved now. Some players were credited $100 to compensate for the problems.

I was wrong on this one, actually. Apologies. They are not co-owned, but they were both downgraded to D- around the end of October for similar tactics. Bet Royal got in trouble with SBR for stalling payments and stealing wins from bettors who used a sports handicapping service (a very standard and well-accepted service) Sportsbook.com was stealing money from coordinate parlays that I referenced earlier. Associated books with Sportsbook.com are:


24CaratSportsbook
52Bet
A1Casino
ABCsportsbook
Aces
AllBetsPlacedHere
AllHorseRacing
AllProSportsbook
AllStar
AmericanWagers
AtHomeSportsbook
AztecGaming
BetInVegas
BetOnUsa
BetUSA
BubbasCasino
ClubVipCasino
EastCoastGamingClub
ESPNsportsbook
FieldGoal
Gambling.net
GlobalSportsNetwork
Hollywood
HorseBetting
House-of-Gambling
InterChamps
i-Sportsbook
Iwager
JackPotPlusCasino
KingPin
Linesmaker
MySportsbook
Parier
PlaceMyBet
PlayByPlay
PlayersOnly
PlayItAgain
ProBets
PyramidSportswager
Racebook
RoyalFlush
SB28
ScoreOnSports
SportFanatik
SportingParlor
Sports
Sportsbetting
Sportsbook.com
Sportsbooks
SportsWager
SuperBook
SuperSportsbook
SuperUsaCasino
TakaraCasino
TheBestBet
VipSportsbookPlayers
WagerTonight
WallStreet
WallStreetBets
Win4Real

 

[hakapuku]

I find the idea that someone would accuse a business of a serious crime and then refuse to provide the evidence... a little bit unconvincing, to say the least.

Why would anyone not want to provide the "proof" of their accusations?


You want to see how much variance there is in Blackjack.
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
It has a RNG... Just like the ones in the casino.

As i told in my previous post- i need millions and millions of dollars ,which i don't have, in order to prove mathematically that microgaming casino software is rigged (not always but sometimes, some periods of time). If my log will contain 10.000 bets on roulette black/red bets- and the house edge will be around 10% in the favor of the house- still it will not be enough to prove cheating. It will be called variance. To really prove the cheating here one needs millions of bets. Since an individual player is unable to do this work it seems that there is no way to prove cheating here. Which means? According to you this means that the software is fair! And i want to ask you - did you play at Microgaming casinos in October? How much did you play? What games, what results? And i did play there in October. And my results were awful. Not just bad. They were unbelievable! And i am sure that there many online players out there who will support me with this.
If only hundred of us could unite and make a really big testing for the software.

 

[jas2587]

Do ya really think you should be making a statment of this kind
without proof (( I think in the 1st post you said I will not show the proof))

microgaming casino software is rigged (not always but sometimes, some periods of time).

that is quite a statement with no Proof
Kinda blowing in the wind here eh

Cindy

This was directed at hakapuku {{{I am sure that Microgaming casino software was rigged in October. In November i quit playing there at all so i know nothing about November. All the table games were rigged in October. I will not provide you with the necessary logs, just believe my words}}}

 

[hakapuku]

Do ya really think you should be making a statment of this kind
without proof (( I think in the 1st post you said I will not show the proof))

microgaming casino software is rigged (not always but sometimes, some periods of time).

that is quite a statement with no Proof
Kinda blowing in the wind here eh

Cindy

This was directed at hakapuku {{{I am sure that Microgaming casino software was rigged in October. In November i quit playing there at all so i know nothing about November. All the table games were rigged in October. I will not provide you with the necessary logs, just believe my words}}}

And what is the proof of the opposite statement: Microgaming software is not rigged? Do you have any prove for that? I don't. And in my opinion it is rigged from time to time.
P.S. I now checked at www.roxypalacecasino.com the last time when their software was audited by so called independant auditors from Pricewatercoopers...It was the first half of 2006 year!

 

[jas2587]

I didn't say it was or it wasn't
I am just saying if you are gonna say
it is rigged you should back it up

Cindy

 

[lots0]

To really prove the cheating here one needs millions of bets.

So why then, are you accusing anyone of cheating without the proof?

Microgaming software is not rigged? Do you have any prove for that? I don't.

No one here made any statement about MG not being rigged.

It is YOUR statement hakapuku that MG is cheating (or was cheating in October) that people are questioning.

It seems to me that if want to go around accusing business of crimes you should be prepared to provide proof or evidence. If you don't want to (or can't) provide the proof or evidence then you should expect people to question you. Especially when you make statements that infer you have proof, then you refuse to provide it.

Absolute Poker was caught cheating with far less than a million hands being analyzed. All it took was a few players that provided their hand histories (logs) for public viewing.

You wanna take MG down for cheating... cool.
But your gonna hafta PROVE IT or at the very least provide some evidence and not just keep ranting about it.

 

[aka23]

As i told in my previous post- i need millions and millions of dollars ,which i don't have, in order to prove mathematically that microgaming casino software is rigged (not always but sometimes, some periods of time). If my log will contain 10.000 bets on roulette black/red bets- and the house edge will be around 10% in the favor of the house- still it will not be enough to prove cheating. It will be called variance. To really prove the cheating here one needs millions of bets.

You do not need millions of bets and "millions of dollars" to show unfair software. As a credible example, the data Wizard of Odds used to show unfair play at Casino Bar only included a few hundred samples. A few hundred samples was enough to show a 1 in 238 billion chance.

The futher the results are from normal, the fewer samples you need to show unnatural software. In your example with a 10% house edge in roulette (I'll assume single zero) over 10 thousand bets, I estimate near a 1 in 1 trillion chance of the distribution occurring randomly. It could not simply be dismissed as typical variance.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

...To really prove the cheating here one needs millions of bets. ....

This is false. All one needs is a chi-squared (or other) statistic that is sufficiently skewed as to make flawed software, cheating, or malice more likely the cause than any other reasonable cause.

For example, Absolute Poker was caught by sampling under 100 hands.

Likewise, if a coin is tossed 100 times and came up heads each time, that would easily be sufficient to assume the coin was "two headed" as the most likely explanation.

Statisticians really do understand when millions or billions of hands are needed (for example, to accurately simulate the edge on blackjack to 2 decimal places), and when just a few thousand hands are needed (to check if the dealer is getting too many blackjacks or the player too few).

It may seem otherwise, but from purely the mathematical perspective, there are lots of highly trained and watchful eyes protecting players and insuring fair games.

--Eliot

 

[Westland Bowl]

I generally do not trust "chi" numbers to determine whether a fair game is being played. You can do that with brick and mortar casinos but online casinos have software that can draw "random" cards but still you end up losing or pushing way over expected results even with perfect basic strategy.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Up to you

With regard to your statement:

I generally do not trust "chi" numbers to determine whether a fair game is being played ...

Is there a particular blackjack game at a particular online casino you don't trust, and believe a testing method other than chi-squared testing should be used? I will do this for you, if you like. I agree with your concern about chi-squared.

--Eliot

 

[Westland Bowl]

Eliot, I ended up with your unedited posting for some reason- the one where you offered to do some testing...so since you edited it, I didn't use that one.

I just joined a new casino and in the first two 40-hand sessions I've played, my winning percentage was just below 27% when mathematically it should be 41-43%. The cards-drawn chi factors were below 5, meaning they were pretty 'random'. I know that the more sessions I play, the more the average win percentage should move up.....if they want to keep their 'reputable' reputation.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

With regard to your statement:



Is there a particular blackjack game at a particular online casino you don't trust, and believe a testing method other than chi-squared testing should be used? I will do this for you, if you like. I agree with your concern about chi-squared.

--Eliot

I am willing to retain your services (pay you) to test the fairness of a rather new casino's BJ game. I am familiar with your credentials and even caught a minor typo in the first publication of "The Blackjack Zone" approx. 2 years ago. (I did inform the nice lady at the publishing company from which I ordered copies of the book). Thanks,NV

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Forum rules

From the forum rules:

1.11 - Please do not exploit this board to promote your own personal agenda...

I just want to point out that if I make an offer here to investigate a specific allegation, that offer is pro bono on behalf of the online community and is not a soliciation for business.

--Eliot

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Mr. Jacobson, I hope no one would consider your goodwill gesture to the forum in the wrong perspective on account of my post. I have previously retained the services of other well known professionals in the gambling industry as required including attorney Bob Nersesian. If my prior post causes anyone to wrongfully question any other parties intent, then mods please disregard and/or remove my post above. Thank You,Garry!

 

[GrandMaster]

I generally do not trust "chi" numbers to determine whether a fair game is being played. You can do that with brick and mortar casinos but online casinos have software that can draw "random" cards but still you end up losing or pushing way over expected results even with perfect basic strategy.

Chi^2 is only a statistical method, you can also apply it to the frequencies of hands won/lost/pushed or anything else you wish.