Oh my GOD! God d#mn cheaters!

kimss

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
Oh I so want to believe you small rollers that the world is perfect, and that the casinoes doesnt cheat! But they surely do! I just had the silliest round of blackjact in 3Dice - it's so obvious. Why do the cards change behavior on different wagers? I really want to know! (that is an obvious quiestion).

The obvious observation is clear, the cards will try to give you as many wins as possible on low wagers so it can such you dry on higher wagers. And by the way, you can see this behaviour also playing with tournament!

So, lets see how fast a 1000 euroes goes when wagering constantly 25 and 50 euroes, I had a feeling I was going for a nice win streak since the 50% was absolutely in my favour from dangeling some time with 1-5 and 10 wagers.

So lets start with 25 wagering:
0 = loose, if (21) it means dealer has 21, (B) means blackjack
1 = win, if (21) means I got 21, (B) means blackjack
B = I bust
- = Even
0+ = I double and loose
1+ = I double and win

0(21)
0
0(21)
0
-
-
0(21)
1
-
0(21)
0
B
0(21)
1
1
1(B)
0(B)
1
0+
B
1+
0
B
0(21)
B
1(B)
-
B
1
B
B
0(21)
0
0
B
0
1
-
1
B
B
-
0(B)
1
1
1
-
0
0(21)
-
-
1+
0(21)
0(21)
0
0
1
1
0
0
0
B
B
1
B
B
0(21)
B
B
B
B
-
0
0(B)
0
B
0(21)
0(21)
1
1
B
0(21)

The last cards was a 100 euro bet and I was out...

I so want to belive you people who say the casino doesnt alter the algorythm and so, but doing tournaments for a week now observing the same behavior, and getting this is my face with real money - sorry I just cant convince myself any longer I'm the insane man and your are the sane ones.

Also, my earlier MG excersice with 250.000+ spins (which I do have playcheck data from!!!) where I more or less force the bonus on Glory of Rome again and again, so we meet the wonderful 95% payout also speaks for it self.

I hope some of you statistcs people out there would want to look into the playcheck data of mine - so you can tell me that I'm wrong - so you can tell me why loosing on one game makes me win again and again on Glory of Rome... You need to to this - because to me it stinks to high heaven! And every time I want to believe you things are all jokkidi dokkidy, and a big win shouldnt mean the casino freezes - heydiho I kick myself in the balls!

So for you out there that have a feeling something is going on, take my advice, and I'm a software developer so I not stupid! I am an gambling addict, sure, but not stupid! 5+ years and $100.000 in losses, a few 1000 hours watching, making notes, you see some things!

Hey, even some of you hardballers in here are starting to say "well I must say I have noticed when the scatters appear so and so..." Bollocks, if it's random that shouldt happend! It's my firm belief, or my theory at the moment, the system supresses larger wins if your payout is high, and it will gracefully help you from time to time if the payout is low.

Wagering $10.000 during a year on high variance slots should not give you 95% payout! Some should have high, and some should have to crawl out with 40% if they didn't hit anything. But that doesnt happen... I wonder why we only get one account in each casino... Could it be to have totally controll over your stats? I would think so!

God damn!
 

SlotsWizard

Dormant account
Joined
May 11, 2006
Location
North of Antarctica
I wonder why we only get one account in each casino... Could it be to have totally controll over your stats? I would think so!
People are only allowed one account to prevent them from receiving the sign-up bonus more than once.

If you are really that paranoid that online casinos are out to get you, you probably shouldn't be gambling online. However, I can assure you that the same treatment awaits you in a B&M casino if you have ever played their slots.
 

kimss

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
In farness for 3Dice, let me follow up with some more info, since the kind people there gave me a little bonus to wiggle with.
B (50 euro)
B (50 euro)
1 (30 euro)
1 (60 euro)
1 (30 euro)
1 (30 euro)
1 ( 5 euro)
B ( 1 euro)
0 (10 euro)
0 (30 euro)
1 (30 euro)
1 (40 euro, blackjack)
1 (30 euro)
B ( 5 euro)
B (10 euro)
1+(20 euro)
0 ( 5 euro, 21)
1 ( 5 euro)
B (15 euro)
0 (15 euro, my fault, pressed double on 20... shize)
1 (15 euro)
1 (30 euro, blackjack)
0 (30 euro)
1 (30 euro)
1 (60 euro)
1 (60 euro)
B (30 euro)
1 (30 euro)
0 (30 euro)
- (40 euro)
1 (50 euro)
0 (50 euro, blackjack)
1 (50 euro)
1 (50 euro)
1 (50 euro)
1 (10 euro, blackjack)

Was it just a dry spell? Even if I win back my original deposit the result is still i ended up depositing alot today. The results did turn it seems, statistically they would have to aswell. By argument with MG still stands 100% however.
 

kimss

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
However, I can assure you that the same treatment awaits you in a B&M casino if you have ever played their slots.
Believe me I know, however - we dont see it there! They, most likely, cheat aswell. But we do not get the pleasure of pulling out playcheck data and having 100% controll over the slot and see every spin, we do online!

Also, you do remember the thread with the guy who won alot and sat on the phone with his girlfriend wagering at thunderstruck at same wager and same casino, however the girlfriend won all the time but he was sucked dry?

There are a few examples which have been mention in this forum that is far from random, they simply cannot be! One thing is sure, it is not that hard making $50 become $250, making $500 becoming $2500 is another story! Even when you x5 the wagering. Unless my ~ $50.000 the last year trying both are extremely unlucky that is, I know. Why I gamble? I'm an addict, I have never tried to hide that fact. Am I greedy? Sure! It doesnt mean I'm blind, it doesn't mean I'm not good for the money! I'm greedy, and an addict. Reality bites!

Merry christmas by the way, :D
 

gobucs

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Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio USA
You're right! They're cheating! I've been playing Blackjack for over two years now and have lost over $150,000! I guess I'm an addict too. The thing is, I've played numerous big name casinos, PartyPoker (when legal in the US), Bodog, LasVegas USA, and several others. It's all the same, no matter the software. If I bet small, let's ay $1 a hand, I win my fair share, sometimes even more than the dealer. But if increase the wager and keep it increased, the house enjoys a 30+% win/loss advantage. I've never seen so many suck-out 21's, and bad beats on doubles and splits. I can win 4 hands in arow for $1 and bet $10 and lose. I can lose 4 hands in a row for $1 bet $10 and lose, and keep betting 10 and keep losing. Only it's not $10 it's $50-$100. I can spend weeks building up my bankroll, and they will steal it in minutes by winning rediculous numbers of hands in a row. How many times have you seen the house win 8 hands in a row (just an example, they win more than that a lot) you win 1 and the house wins the next 1,2,3 in a row. There are hudreds of these patterns. I've posted threads on here before about exactly this, but nobody seems to get it. I wonder how many people in this forum actually work for the casinos themselves.
I've found the only thing that works is to consistently bet low and sneak in a larger bet every once in awhile. This is very frustrating too because when you're betting low your winning (go figure). But you have to be very patient with this method. And look at the patterns. They are there. They shouldn't be in this so-called random world, but they're there. I've actually had some pretty good cashes this way. Otherwise I'd be down $300,000.
Thanks for your post. I'm glad to know that I'm not completely insane, or at least alone in my insanity.
gobucs
 

kimss

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Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
I've found the only thing that works is to consistently bet low and sneak in a larger bet every once in awhile. This is very frustrating too because when you're betting low your winning (go figure). But you have to be very patient with this method.
This is just what I noticed aswell, very clearly, the last week as I had a "comback" in online Blackjack. This "tecnique" does work and you can sneak your bankroll a few x100 upwards. But once you start switching bets in the x5+ range, the cards gets really confused and starts throwing blackjacks and ties all over the place. Oh my that is so random, especially since it happends consistantly.

I smile when you mention the 8 loose in a row, seems todays blackjack never let me loose more than 7 times in a row, followed by 1 win and 2+ looses again and tie. Then, depending on wagering, what happends next. I do however would like to see 7 wins in a row in a few short in between series, no, didn't see that.

Also, loose a few big hands, go lowest and enjoy a lucky streak! Loose many low hands and you do not automatically enjoy winning high hands.

I belive the trick is to look at the blackjack as true, but weighted, it does look like blackjack on the outside.

Whatever the results are, I must say comparing 3Dice blackjack with MG blackjack I still love 3Dice much more! MG is just ultraconfusing with all those 20/21 on the dealer again and again and again and again... broke!
 

kimss

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
I would think they do, they are from the Netherlands. They are kind with their high-rollers, that I can say! And did I get a lucky streak now in BJ, I'm back to square one. Whatever the results, I still favour their blackjack the best online one. So if your still wagering anyways, check that one out. Do some 100 hands on $1-$10 to get the feel before getting naked and diving into your vault, :D
 

kakata

Banned User - hyper flamming
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Kimss I usually like you......this time thou I didnt undearsteand you either.
Lot of frustration.....Ive been there too.
Do they or do they not?:D
Merry christmas
 

kimss

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
Do they or do they not?:D
Thanks for your comment. I definitely believe they do, and I am also more or less convinced you have 1 chance in each MG casino to make a profit, after that you will never win back you total deposit - unless you should get a progressive that is. I got back to scratch, a little ahead and then hei'di'hooo, :D Im back struggling again. It was fantastic to see that the tide would infact turn, which it would anyways to keep an overall %.

So my point would be, I do not believe any online - or landbased for that matter - operate truly random, its pest or colera. Given this premise, and the fact that Im an gambling addict (weee) I much rather wager on 3Dice blackjack! That was my point.

I would one time like to see me start off in blackjack and end with 1000 in winnings, before accually depositing 1000. How come I always win 1000 after loosing 1000?

That statement, you people who still live in your bubbles, you should really think about! I find it truly inspiring to dwell on at nights when I smoke the pipe and get my thought spinning into conspiracy world as some would say. Id bet, as a gambler, some would say that!

:D
 

kimss

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
Oh good, so they're not rigged after all. Whew!

Merry Christmas to you too. :D
?? With that logic, when I lost $5000 in one MG the other night, and magically won a 2500 lucky slingshot, battled my way up to 3500 again and weee... Then after accumulated losses for around 3-400 more I got a great 1200 win. (we are in the 5-10 wager spinning).

Then again, when I - since this obviously happends to me who do alot of high rolling - wager low, hey habbiluuba you get some nice ones.

Yes they are still rigged, even if I got that good streak _afterwards_. As noted, I have still yet to see I start with say 50 and end with a 1050. It accually never happened, and that is based on probably 50.000 in losses in online blackjack over the years.

But man oh man, I was upto 3000 one time... After depositing an hillarious 4000! Go figure!

Maby your IP is restricted in the MG realm, or maby you wager small most the time I do not know. But as a skilled slotster as I belive you are I honestly cannot get my head around the fact you do not see some odd behaviour in the wins during the sessions.

Merry Christmas by the way!
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
If you want to add to the paranoia, look at my thread where I was getting the 5 rams again, and again, and again etc on Thunderstruck over a short period of times. Many players spin for year and NEVER see them once, let alone a dozen times in a month or two.

So, what was my secret?

Each and every time I was betting between 0.18 and 0.54 per spin.


The scatters DO show long term patterns in how they fall, sometimes you will barely see any at all for more than 200 spins, and at other times they just fly in. The consequence of this is that when the scatters fall in phase with each other because there are more on average per spin, the bonus rounds become much more frequent, even if they are still crap.

The older slot, 5 reel drive has a set piece "suck" cycle of 30 or so completely naked spins with a set of 3 or 4 scatters roughly in the middle, after which it reverts to hitting those minor wins every couple of spins.
This is so noticeable when playing a wagering tournament and watching thousands of spins, it is not just a quirk of variance, it is a definite set of naked spins that stands outside of the normal statistical spread of how many naked spins it takes before hitting any payout. ALL the video slots have such runs of naked spins.
Another experiment is to look only at the first reel of Cabin Fever. Sometimes the "sun" is in view every damn spin almost, but at other times it hits less than one in 10 or 20. It seems this reel tends to end up within a symbol or two of it's departing position for spin upon spin, rather than ramdomly being placed anywhere along it's strip each spin. If that favoured segment includes the sun bonus symbol, you think it's "hot", but if the segment does not, the slot seems "cold".
This suggests that the algorithm behind these games is NOT that of a standard video slot with 5 independent random numbers being used to place the reels, but perhaps something along the lines of a single random number compared to a win table containing all possible probabilities that can contribute to the 95% quoted payoff. The server then uses this single result to form 5 reel positions that are then transmitted for display. The patterns arise because of the way the reel stops are matched to the single randomly determined win, and MG have this habit of taking "shortcuts" that the player shouldn't notice (VP doubling game). This might mean they do not take care to ensure that the winning patterns obey what should be statistically expected of a fullly randomised 5 reel slot with independent random determination of each reel stop. Unfortunately, under this scenario the patterns may not necessarily have the predictive value you think, because any prediction must take into account which game model is being used.

It's possible, but unlikely (too easy to get caught), that the same model is applied to games with less possible outcomes, such as Blackjack. Despite this, there are times when the dealer can better nearly everything you have, and at others can lose with the best of up cards. If you knew a pattern here, you could easily alter strategy and stand against dealer high cards knowing they are on a busting streak and will NOT keep hitting the 19,20, and 21 against your 15's and 17's.

One character took advantage of this and developed the now notorious "Cypher Blackjack system", which claimed to be able to predict exactly when to hit the tables with huge knockout bets after "patterning" the session with tiny $1 bets. It turned out to be a huge con, costing both players and "investors" tens of thousands of dollars, all who thought they had cracked the code of online Blackjack.

If the games DO have predictive patterns, the casinos are asking for trouble when one day the code is cracked, they will go out of business in no time!

Perceived patterns must really be artifacts of the software, and can give insight into what is REALLY being "randomly determined" as the result of your game. It has already been shown that the various Microgaming "pick" games are simply an artifact, whereas the result has already been predetermined and whatever icon the player chooses has no effect on what they are destined to receive.
Free spins, at least, seem to genuinely be 10,12, 15, 20 etc, independently determined results, rather than a way of displaying the result from a predetermined "pick" table (or MG have done it very well & not been caught out).
 

hippo925

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Location
so cal
kimss, though i REALLY know how frustrating bad streaks can be, maybe you should have started the thread in another manner. i myself have vented numerous times but it's really important to keep things in perspective and that over time, you will see some freaky things. i have noticed a lot of what you have, but if the world was perfect, you would still lose over the long run, no? and if i questioned or didn't like a casino because i couldn't win... well, then all casinos in las vegas cheat and suck!:D with 3dice, my issue was really only that some of my deposits didn't give me a reasonable play time....high variance and all, but i exclusively play there (though some tuesdays i hit the inetbet bonus) because i like the casino, the staff, and love (and hate) the games :rolleyes:

i bet we all have stories of ridiculous things we've seen, here are some of mine, but it doesn't mean the casinos were cheating, does it?

have i had some really bad runs? yes
have i had some really great runs? yes
have i ever seen a roulette table in vegas with 14 reds in row? yes
have i ever won $1000 with a .40 bet in vegas on a penny slot? yes (buffet mania)
have i ever lost $700 on a penny slot and had some lady sit down and win $500 on a .40 bet when i was bettin 2.00? yes
have i ever hit a jackpot on a $1 machine at the same time as someone next to me? yes
have i ever lost $300 on cleopatra betting .40 and not hit the bonus? yes

it goes on and on and on..... you kinda know what i mean.

and i didn't see it before, but vinyl's post above mine, is the best explanation for how slots might work i have ever read!! i used to think there were 5 random numbers, one for each reel, but noticing how the reels fall, it appears to me to be one random number for a set "win" with a corresponding reel layout. even for "free spin" bonuses, i feel that sometimes i was "supposed" to win 53.50, and the the algorithym shows 15 spins with wins that add up to 53.50. that would explain the whole near miss thing, where, if you were supposed to win "0", then why not show you something that was sooooo close. if each reel was random, you wouldn't see the "everything lines up except one reel" thing so often, no?

anyway, great explanation vinyl..... everyone should read that!
 

kimss

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Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
If the games DO have predictive patterns, the casinos are asking for trouble when one day the code is cracked, they will go out of business in no time!
Thanks for your post! But they will not, since the pattern is not really a pattern in my mind, but rather a forced apon skew calculated against your given payout for your entire lifespan in the casino.

Take this for example: Lets say the slots are 100% random from getcko. If your payout, overall that is, is above 95%, if a great combination is to be hit the software will just then, se to it that the one of the wheels go 1 step to far or not. If the payout is lower, the software will randomly kick in and help an almost winning combination to accually win.

This is the most logical way I see it, given we always end up around 95% in the end.

Blackjack is no problem either, and cannot be cracked for the same reason. You have a standard deck, which is truly randomized. The software will then make sure, randomly, that there will come streaks for you - and for me (casino). Preferrably the streaks go for me first, so Im sure you will deposit alot. Then you get it back, and you are already warm and will probably blew it all since withdrawing what you deposited is not normal for high rollers.

In such a million, trillion I dont know, industri you cant expect people to be truly honest.

So cracking a code, its not possible. That would be a very #dumb#, edit: silly, assumption.

If you remember Thunderstruck, with analyzing the reels. They looked very random, what was strange however was that when I looked at all the spins which had the wild in the first 4 reels, the last one was not % correct. This I noticed on several of the big wins, I even mentioned it to the math expert in here, Zoozie, but he thought there was to little data for a conclusion. However it's always fun to see that the winning spins are lacking, until you infact have filled the bank you are winning from... Hey ho silver I say!

As much as I would like to do 250.000 more spins, it takes around 2 weeks to complete and I do not have the time. Also, I need some geniouses with numbers and stats to look into the 250.000 I already have. I do not have all the time in the world, :D

Playcheck is there for the players, and surely MG knows people will analyze theese. This means that the tweaking must be very subtle, almost invisible. But hey, if I can "steal" the 5 rams from you one time, I will probably secure a good profit from you. Should you loose a hell of a lot, and I see you wager $2 usually, I will then see to it that you get your 5 rams. You will be very happy, and hey, the stats are suddenly 100% accurate again... Except... You know... So it's very possible, and very easy to do aswell if you have access to the source code of the MG system.

Hey I would do it, so why should we belive they are angels with white wings?
 

kimss

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Feb 21, 2006
Location
Norway
To sum up the BJ experience, I got an extremely lucky streak, which dissapaired after I hit +20% of my initial "total bet". Then it all went away in the same manner. I can now spend the night to look at all those nice hands I wrote down. Some would say, ahh, you had an unlucky streak and a lucky streak and an unlucky streak again, its nothing wrong. I'm still waiting for the day I accually get it the other way around... It's been 5+ years now, and day now, any day now... I hope I see it before I must sell the car.... LOL
 

kakata

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we are lucky to have a car to sell .............many never had a car nor money enough to buy one nor to even dream about one..........:oops:
These are,probably,Chrystmas time thoughts.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Thanks for your post! But they will not, since the pattern is not really a pattern in my mind, but rather a forced apon skew calculated against your given payout for your entire lifespan in the casino.

Take this for example: Lets say the slots are 100% random from getcko. If your payout, overall that is, is above 95%, if a great combination is to be hit the software will just then, se to it that the one of the wheels go 1 step to far or not. If the payout is lower, the software will randomly kick in and help an almost winning combination to accually win.
This is the most logical way I see it, given we always end up around 95% in the end..........
That's a very good description of the real CHEATING casino software, such as Cassinova, Oyster, and "start-your-own-casino.com". It is also how UK "Fruit Machines" work, however, this "cheating" is an exploitable weakness when it comes to UK Fruit Machines. Since you know it has to build a bank before it pays, and the reels are not random, there are patterns in some of the games that can be read once you have played the game enough. Often the make a spectacular cock-up in the "cheating" part of the code, and if this cock-up is done just right, it is possible to empty the machine with a certain playing style which involves a set sequence of choices and reactions.

To give an example, in the early 90's, a machine was released called "Pay Rise". Included was a small error in part of the code for one of the minor features, it had the effect that the small wins generated were never logged as having left the building up bank. If this feature was EXCLUSIVELY targeted, even to the extent of deliberately refusing obvious higher wins, the machine reached a state where the software believed it was so fae below percentage that it generated a win on every single spin, that could be exploited to target this minor feature. Thus it was possible to empty the entire machine from taking these small wins, which were not necessarily so small once the machine was in this state. If the machine did not have a finite amount of money in it, this process could go on forever until the player chose to "kill" the game by taking all the jackpots and big wins offerd till the software believed the percentage was closer to what it should have been.
On one occasion, I had one of these showing 60 credits, 50 owing, going "mental" and completely and utterly EMPTY (apart from the tokens in a jammed up tube which I was after, which is why I didn't "kill" the game earlier):D
One can imagine the damage were an online casino to release such poor code:D
 

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