Ask me anything (about slots)!

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Are you familiar with the game megapots on UK storm cabinets and formerly on William Hill terminals???

That game states it’s random when it clearly isn’t. How is this allowed?

 

[Fraccy]

Hi all just after some advice I've been having huge problems with raging bull casino! Been waiting for payouts since January and after countless contact with them now two of them have been deleted but I have screenshots of all conversations and proof of other 2payouts but it's just going nowhere, just need advice on where I can go from here or has anyone experienced the same problems

 

[Mouche12]

Hi Fraccy, you could have created a new post for that. But click the Submit PAB option on the top ribbon to request CM to look into this. Raging Bull is unfortunately not recommended as there are numerous player complaints.

Hope MaxD can help you out once you've filled out the PAB forum.

Btw, welcome to the forum!

 

[trancemonkey]

Are you familiar with the game megapots on UK storm cabinets and formerly on William Hill terminals???

That game states it’s random when it clearly isn’t. How is this allowed?

Don't get me started on Storm games... i played a Cat C game of theirs once in a pub...
£100 through it at £1 play without a single win. Worst game i've ever played in my life without question.

However, i don't know this game so can't say anything about it - although i don't remember seeing it on Hills. I saw one similar, but that was a BetDigital game

 

[trancemonkey]

Why does BTG string good spins in a "clump" and bad spins in a clump", Sadly theres no denying this.

You might want to add this to the Slots Fairness Discussion, but i'd say the same thing there - i'm as sure as can be that BTG games are fair.

 

[Fraccy]

Hi Fraccy, you could have created a new post for that. But click the Submit PAB option on the top ribbon to request CM to look into this. Raging Bull is unfortunately not recommended as there are numerous player complaints.

Hope MaxD can help you out once you've filled out the PAB forum.

Btw, welcome to the forum!

Thank you for that I'll get it started much appreciated

 

[orion]

this is a "new" IGT game offered at a local here in this poor Country.

the structure of the game is similar to NetEnt's Eggomatic, but the special wild activating the prizes on the top can drop only on reels 1,3, and 5 and this special wild drops only once every 50/75 spins.

However, are you in position to give me some info about its maths and its rtps ? Also privately, if you prefer.

thanks in advance

 

[4048]

this is a "new" IGT game offered at a local here in this poor Country.

the structure of the game is similar to NetEnt's Eggomatic, but the special wild activating the prizes on the top can drop only on reels 1,3, and 5 and this special wild drops only once every 50/75 spins.

However, are you in position to give me some info about its maths and its rtps ? Also privately, if you prefer.

thanks in advance

View attachment 89190

Looks like the new Elephant game you can find in online casinos.
Ofc it'll have a few % lower RTP though, due to being on land.

 

[trancemonkey]

Looks like the new Elephant game you can find in online casinos.
Ofc it'll have a few % lower RTP though, due to being on land.

It's similar to Elephant King (and a little bit like Eggomatic i guess) but slightly more volatile than Elephant King due to the multiplier on the middle reel...
Personally, i prefer Elephant King although they are both good games.

It's not a wild that activates the prize on the top row, it's a specific symbol.

What country are you in? The chances are the RTP is around 93% if you're in Europe, and the online version is around 96%.

 

[trancemonkey]

@Bloatgoat I saw in the other thread that you were active in that you believe "Trancemonkey is not 'our' industry but a small dev or lead developper"
It's funny that your belief that games are not random, which is wrong, is also as wrong as your knowledge of me. It's no secret what i do... it's mentioned in this thread multiple times. But feel free to believe what you want son

 

[Smithyy]

Hey Trancemonkey, I was thinking about something.

As software providers get a % (I think) of each stake played through a game, isn't it actually more financially lucrative for them to set the RTP as high as possible? Allowing for the player to play through more money, thus earning more from the online casino?

Is that how it works? I am thinking that way after looking at how affiliate payments are calculated, and seeing that a % is allocated to the software providers. Or, perhaps it's just the case that they're only paid on a losing session, like affiliates?

Thanks!

 

[trancemonkey]

The software providers don't choose the RTP the game is set to - unless of course they only provide one RTP to the casino, but then it's up to the casino as to whether the game is released or not. You can look at it in two ways - set the RTP to the lowest it can be in order to make the most money and still deliver good gameplay, or set it very high and earn less money per spin but hope to keep players longer.

If a software provider is on a 10% rev share and their game is at 96% RTP game, then they get 10% of the 4% the game retains.

 

[Tourettesguy]

Monkey,

How many people are involved making a slot like IR or any other well known slot and how long does it take from idea to release?
As a programmer do you only write the math and not involved in the graphic and theme of the slot. Are there different teams of people and are some things a secret to each team about the slots structure.
And when I see this b**ch on the news wanna tell things about her and President Trump but is not allowed(?) to do it, I really cant stop thinking about slot programmers. Never heard of anyone talking about anthing except you. Are there people involved in making of casinos games that sign some kind of aggreement that to never ever talk about the programming at all?
If there is, what are the cost of talking, physical abuse, murdurs or billions of dollars in fine?

Btw its sad the cut out thread was decommissoned

 

[trancemonkey]

Monkey,

How many people are involved making a slot like IR or any other well known slot and how long does it take from idea to release?
As a programmer do you only write the math and not involved in the graphic and theme of the slot. Are there different teams of people and are some things a secret to each team about the slots structure.
And when I see this b**ch on the news wanna tell things about her and President Trump but is not allowed(?) to do it, I really cant stop thinking about slot programmers. Never heard of anyone talking about anthing except you. Are there people involved in making of casinos games that sign some kind of aggreement that to never ever talk about the programming at all?
If there is, what are the cost of talking, physical abuse, murdurs or billions of dollars in fine?

Btw its sad the cut out thread was decommissoned

TG - thanks you for the non-tin-foil-hat question Good to see you in here!

There are many people involved in making a slot game - producers, developers (coders), graphic designers (artists), mathematicians, QA (testers). Of course, you could have as little as 5 people (one of each of those) but it depends on the scope / size of the game.

With regards to me - i WAS a developer many years ago, but i've been a producer for the last 7 years. So i have a lot more responsibility now as one of the Senior Producers at IGT - i have to manage everyone in the team to make the game that's in my head, although BloatGoat thinks i'm a "little dev" - it was funny seeing him say that if i worked for a big provider he'd be more likely to believe me. I didn't want to embarrass him by telling him the truth.

Of course there are things i can't talk about that are our companies IP, but where things are already publicly available then i'm free to talk about them.

If i was to give away company IP (maths, future game information, anything that can affect share prices in a good or bad way, etc..) then of course i'd be sacked instantly and probably end up in a civil court case... not something anyone wants. It's no different to anyone at any company talking about what they do - you wouldn't expect someone at Ferrari to start telling people on a forum about all these great new cars and innovations that are not public knowledge yet would you?

I'm just the same I'm not going to risk my job, but at the same time i want to be as honest as i can be - and hopefully stay the right side of the line at all times!

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Don't get me started on Storm games... i played a Cat C game of theirs once in a pub...
£100 through it at £1 play without a single win. Worst game i've ever played in my life without question.

However, i don't know this game so can't say anything about it - although i don't remember seeing it on Hills. I saw one similar, but that was a BetDigital game

Yes megapots was made by BetDigital.

It’s a 5 reel game. Each reel has a pot above it. Reel 1 pot goes from 0-100 reel 2 0-200 reel 3 0-300 reel 4 0-400 and reel 5 0-500. Each time a pot is won it resets back to 0 and slowly creeps back up.

The game states it’s random. BUT pot 2 (0-200) can’t payout unless it’s between £100.05 and £200) and for example pot 4 can’t payout unless it’s between (300.05-£400).

So when you are awarded the feature which can award the pots say for example on reel 5 and the pot is sitting on £363 there is absolutely no ‘random’ chance of the machine awarding it.

Now of course once ‘players’ were made aware and/or figured this out there were hoards of people running around hills looking for decent pots. The flip side to this ‘randomness’ was that the pots couldn’t get past their max out value’ so if you were lucky enough to stumble across say a pot 5 on £487 with a pot 3 on £279 then u were quids in.

Now after a while the games randomness was tweaked further. On a revised version of the game it was tweaked so that each pot couldn’t come out until the pot value was on £X88.XX.

Now of course I’m sure this was all phased in after going through all the compliance and testing. Yeah right!!

Nowhere in the help screen does it state about when the pots must be won by X amount or is it displayed anywhere on screen. You know like the novo community type pots in landbased casinos.

So how can this game be passed as ‘random’ When the game completely controls when pots can and can’t be won?

Obviously those in the know early made a lot of money from this game.

The poor people playing it not in the know had absolutely no idea that they had absolutely no chance of winning certain pots because the code wouldn’t allow it.

 

[nikantw]

Respin feature, like the one on MG Dragon Dance. What is the TRTP of the respin?
Where is the TRTP of the game? Can't find it in help file. VS RTP page has it at 98% for all the game.
What I find interesting is that every respin has a cost, even the ones that can't pay anything (because they can't possibly result in a winning combination).
Very small cost, but it is there so it is possible (although very stupid) to keep doing a respin like that with 0.00% TRTP forever! And lose millions with 0.00% TRTP!

 

[brianmon]

Respin feature, like the one on MG Dragon Dance. What is the TRTP of the respin?
Where is the TRTP of the game? Can't find it in help file. VS RTP page has it at 98% for all the game.
What I find interesting is that every respin has a cost, even the ones that can't pay anything (because they can't possibly result in a winning combination).
Very small cost, but it is there so it is possible (although very stupid) to keep doing a respin like that with 0.00% TRTP forever! And lose millions with 0.00% TRTP!

You won't find the TRTP in the helpfile, in the paytable, or anywhere else within the game itself, for any MG game.
It seems like it's something they're allowed to get away with.

 

[trancemonkey]

Respin feature, like the one on MG Dragon Dance. What is the TRTP of the respin?
Where is the TRTP of the game? Can't find it in help file. VS RTP page has it at 98% for all the game.
What I find interesting is that every respin has a cost, even the ones that can't pay anything (because they can't possibly result in a winning combination).
Very small cost, but it is there so it is possible (although very stupid) to keep doing a respin like that with 0.00% TRTP forever! And lose millions with 0.00% TRTP!

Hey

The TRTP of the respin will be the same as the stated RTP. The respin costs will be calculated that way.

If I recall correctly, the reason the respin costs money when there is no win is because you could respin that reel, but then of course respin another reel - and respin might not award a win but could set the reels up so that doing a respin on another reel could award a win...

It's all probability based..

TM

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes megapots was made by BetDigital.

It’s a 5 reel game. Each reel has a pot above it. Reel 1 pot goes from 0-100 reel 2 0-200 reel 3 0-300 reel 4 0-400 and reel 5 0-500. Each time a pot is won it resets back to 0 and slowly creeps back up.

The game states it’s random. BUT pot 2 (0-200) can’t payout unless it’s between £100.05 and £200) and for example pot 4 can’t payout unless it’s between (300.05-£400).

So when you are awarded the feature which can award the pots say for example on reel 5 and the pot is sitting on £363 there is absolutely no ‘random’ chance of the machine awarding it.

Now of course once ‘players’ were made aware and/or figured this out there were hoards of people running around hills looking for decent pots. The flip side to this ‘randomness’ was that the pots couldn’t get past their max out value’ so if you were lucky enough to stumble across say a pot 5 on £487 with a pot 3 on £279 then u were quids in.

Now after a while the games randomness was tweaked further. On a revised version of the game it was tweaked so that each pot couldn’t come out until the pot value was on £X88.XX.

Now of course I’m sure this was all phased in after going through all the compliance and testing. Yeah right!!

Nowhere in the help screen does it state about when the pots must be won by X amount or is it displayed anywhere on screen. You know like the novo community type pots in landbased casinos.

So how can this game be passed as ‘random’ When the game completely controls when pots can and can’t be won?

Obviously those in the know early made a lot of money from this game.

The poor people playing it not in the know had absolutely no idea that they had absolutely no chance of winning certain pots because the code wouldn’t allow it.

As long as the pots have a chance of going at any value it's legal... that chance could be 1 in 10,000 at all values except £497.00, and at 497 could be 99.99%.

Remember, random doesnt mean evenly distributed in slots. It means randomly determined.

 

[goatwack]

Am I in the right place? This is the Slots Fairness Discussion isn't it?

 

[dionysus]

Am I in the right place? This is the Slots Fairness Discussion isn't it?

lol, no

 

[nikantw]

Hey

The TRTP of the respin will be the same as the stated RTP. The respin costs will be calculated that way.

If I recall correctly, the reason the respin costs money when there is no win is because you could respin that reel, but then of course respin another reel - and respin might not award a win but could set the reels up so that doing a respin on another reel could award a win...

It's all probability based..

TM

I think I figured it out, the TRTP must be calculated by the optimum strategy and considering the following respins (up to a win) as part of the original spin and thus spreading the cost between them.
That way they were also able reduce the cost of a winning respin.

About TRTP not in help file, I believe they are allowed because they have the monthly percentage payout reviews from ecogra. I see those on the viper platform. Although they are not for individual slots.

 

[brianmon]

About TRTP not in help file, I believe they are allowed because they have the monthly percentage payout reviews from ecogra. I see those on the viper platform. Although they are not for individual slots.

Maybe in the past, in the days before the UKGC. But it's now a UKGC regulation, which TM could maybe confirm.

Although, if that was the case, is it just a strange coincidence that eCogra was founded by Roger Raatgever - CEO of Microgaming ??

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

As long as the pots have a chance of going at any value it's legal... that chance could be 1 in 10,000 at all values except £497.00, and at 497 could be 99.99%.

Remember, random doesnt mean evenly distributed in slots. It means randomly determined.

You must have not understood my post.

The pots don’t have a chance of going at any value though.

Pot 5 for example couldn’t go until it got to £400 and would have to go before it reached £500.

There was no way possible it could drop before this amount.

Pot 4 for example could ONLY drop between £300-£400. Not before and could never get to an amount like £423.

Hence my question how is that passed as a random game?

 

[trancemonkey]

I think I figured it out, the TRTP must be calculated by the optimum strategy and considering the following respins (up to a win) as part of the original spin and thus spreading the cost between them.
That way they were also able reduce the cost of a winning respin.

About TRTP not in help file, I believe they are allowed because they have the monthly percentage payout reviews from ecogra. I see those on the viper platform. Although they are not for individual slots.

The rules state (highlighted in BOLD the important parts):

RTS requirement 3C

For each virtual event, game (including bingo), or lottery, information that may reasonably be expected to enable the customer to make an informed decision about his or her chances of winning must be easily available before the customer commits to gamble. Information must include: i. a description of the way the game works and the way in which winners are determined and prizes allocated ii. house edge (or margin) iii. the return to player (RTP) percentage or iv. the probability (likelihood) of winning events occurring.

RTS implementation guidance 3C

a. The following items provide further guidance on acceptable types of information about the likelihood of winning: i. for types of peer-to-peer games where the likelihood of winning may depend on skill and/or the actions of other participants, a description of the way the game works and how winners are determined will be sufficient ii. for bingo, and some types of lottery or other games where it is not possible to determine the likelihood of winning because it depends on the eventual number of participants, a description of the way in which prizes are allocated will be sufficient iii. the average theoretical return to player percentage. Where an event (other than peerto-peer) involves an element of skill, return to player percentage should be calculated using either the auto-play strategy or a standard/published strategy iv. the house edge, margin or over-round, for example for a virtual race v. the probability of each winning event occurring, or such information as may reasonably be expected to allow the customer to calculate the probability that the event will occur. The nature of some games may mean that the game itself provides sufficient information, for example, the likelihood of rolling a six on a six-sided die would not require further explanation. vi. The odds displayed in virtual event betting should reflect the probability of each event occurring as closely as possible.
b. Information may be included in artwork and text displayed within the virtual game or event, in ‘help’ or ‘how to play’ pages, or other supporting material.
c. Information should be easily accessible, for example by placing links on home pages for gaming or virtual event sections, game selection pages or menus, or within individual games.

It is NOT a requirement for the RTP to be in the help pages, or even within the game, but it MUST be accessible on the website the game is hosted on. The eCogra thing is NOT an acceptable way of displaying RTP, as that is stating what it's running at, not what it's aiming at.