Q&A Ask Me Anything about Slots (AMA) 2020 with Trancemonkey

[Kroffe]

Gut feeling and experience! Prove me wrong

Thats kind of the thing, i cant, same as you cant prove that the rtp shown in the helpfile is correct.

Or i mean, you can in theory record yourself doing the millions (often billions) of spins required and see if it comes out the same as in testing, but in reality thats not an easy thing to do.
But if you feel up for it ill watch the videos when you post them.

 

[brianmon]

Thats kind of the thing, i cant, same as you cant prove that the rtp shown in the helpfile is correct.

Or i mean, you can in theory record yourself doing the millions (often billions) of spins required and see if it comes out the same as in testing, but in reality thats not an easy thing to do.
But if you feel up for it ill watch the videos when you post them.

I doubt you can trust the helpfiles, should the casino want to edit the address

clicking on the in-game helpfile (top right-hand corner, next to the time) for Immortal Romance at Novibet gives this...

The Standard 96%


Clicking on the same in-game helpfile at Videoslots gives this..
The 94% version



BUT, clicking on the same in-game helpfile at Coral gives their standard general helpfile, not the game's helpfile



So, if the helpfile address is configurable by the casino, what's to stop a casino installing the 94% version and editing the helpfile address to point to the 96% helpfile ???

The addresses are
94%
XXX/

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96%
XXX

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Just replace one with the other, or edit the parameters

The address is obviously configurable, otherwise Coral wouldn't be able to point to their own general helpfile.

Who's going to know?
Who's going to check?

 

[Kroffe]

I doubt you can trust the helpfiles, should the casino want to edit the address

clicking on the in-game helpfile (top right-hand corner, next to the time) for Immortal Romance at Novibet gives this...

The Standard 96%
View attachment 159505

Clicking on the same in-game helpfile at Videoslots gives this..
The 94% version

View attachment 159506

BUT, clicking on the same in-game helpfile at Coral gives their standard general helpfile, not the game's helpfile

View attachment 159507

So, if the helpfile address is configurable by the casino, what's to stop a casino installing the 94% version and editing the helpfile address to point to the 96% helpfile ???

The addresses are
94%
XXX/

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96%
XXX

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Just replace one with the other, or edit the parameters

The address is obviously configurable, otherwise Coral wouldn't be able to point to their own general helpfile.

Who's going to know?
Who's going to check?

I dont remember what site it was (think it was a UK facing one) but there was a site that had 96% showing in the helpfile for the PnG slots while in reality they were using the 94% versions. (maybe that was coral? sounds familiar)

Easy to avoid by having the rtp attached/shown on the slot in question instead of being sent to an external page to see the rtp.
But why would any casino or provider make extra effort to let people know those sort of things, there is no incentive to do it, and no fines/punishment for not doing it.
Not sure what happened to the site showing the wrong files, but im guessing a 'woops, didnt mean to' was probably all it took from their side to make things right again with the UKGC.

One could argue that anyone that played PnG during the time the wrong helpfile was there would be entitled to refunds if they wanted, they were mislead into thinking they were paying for one thing but got served something different, something much worse.

 

[ShadyFei]

I dont remember what site it was (think it was a UK facing one) but there was a site that had 96% showing in the helpfile for the PnG slots while in reality they were using the 94% versions. (maybe that was coral? sounds familiar)

Easy to avoid by having the rtp attached/shown on the slot in question instead of being sent to an external page to see the rtp.
But why would any casino or provider make extra effort to let people know those sort of things, there is no incentive to do it, and no fines/punishment for not doing it.
Not sure what happened to the site showing the wrong files, but im guessing a 'woops, didnt mean to' was probably all it took from their side to make things right again with the UKGC.

One could argue that anyone that played PnG during the time the wrong helpfile was there would be entitled to refunds if they wanted, they were mislead into thinking they were paying for one thing but got served something different, something much worse.

I think this is the thread you were thinking of:

GVC - Coral and Galacasino showing the wrong RTP to players, possible breach of license - Casinomeister Forum

 

[goatwack]

I guess casinos using the Wordpad RTP Help files get a free pass as they're bound to be truthful, not prone to manipulation & in line with current UKGC standards

I have every faith that casinos adhere to the stringent guidelines set out before them and wouldn't even entertain the notion of displaying the higher RTP models whilst actually using the lower one - which your average player wouldn't even give a moment's thought to in their pursuit of wanting to press 'Spin' - because I'm certain the UKGC are constantly monitoring casinos' RTP output as 'Top Priority'.

Were anyone to uncover this preposterous notion that casinos are indeed diddling these Help files and being dishonest, I'd anticipate the governing bodies to be all over it within five years at the latest.

And should any pipsqueak player dare dispute the integrity of the RTP version they're playing, well, stop it with your 'feelings' and get to proving it, will ya!

I'd expect a minimum of a billion spins between the 'supposed' alternative versions displayed, over a 2-year period. And even then, it's still not conclusive and subject to scrutiny, and simply 'your truth'. Just do another billion and then - AND ONLY THEN - will we be any closer to the truth.

You dig?

 

[neon claws]

And should any pipsqueak player dare dispute the integrity of the RTP version they're playing, well, stop it with your 'feelings' and get to proving it, will ya!

I'd expect a minimum of a billion spins between the 'supposed' alternative versions displayed, over a 2-year period. And even then, it's still not conclusive and subject to scrutiny, and simply 'your truth'. Just do another billion and then - AND ONLY THEN - will we be any closer to the truth.

You might notice that in the post immediately above yours is a link to a thread where someone provided *gasp* evidence, and were taken seriously and not mocked at all, so I'm not sure what your point is- that we should accept any accusations of rigging as accurate with no evidence?
Trtp should be displayed on a games splash screen (to be fair you have no idea what RTP the slot at your local pub is set to either), or at the very least help files compiled into the game package, but this crap about conflating a legitimate, proven complaint with the million "slots are rigged because that's what I believe, prove me wrong" threads on here is nonsense.

 

[goatwack]

You might notice that in the post immediately above yours is a link to a thread where someone provided *gasp* evidence, and were taken seriously and not mocked at all, so I'm not sure what your point is- that we should accept any accusations of rigging as accurate with no evidence?
Trtp should be displayed on a games splash screen (to be fair you have no idea what RTP the slot at your local pub is set to either), or at the very least help files compiled into the game package, but this crap about conflating a legitimate, proven complaint with the million "slots are rigged because that's what I believe, prove me wrong" threads on here is nonsense.

Cool story, and excellent straw man. Ties it in nicely with your narrative how someone questioning differing RTP figures is by default saying all slots are rigged

Yet despite the evidence that casinos have been seen to display one RTP number whilst operating at a lesser one, you remain steadfast in your 'critiques'

As annoying as the constant "It's rigged I tell ya!" threads can be, it's equally annoying when the slot defenders like yourself come out to defend companies with their hands in the cookie jar. As 'problematic' as it is for me to definitely 'prove' whether I am in fact playing a 96% RTP version or a 94% one is, I suppose you can tell straight off the bat?

No, I didn't think so either. Unless you were to *gasp* maybe run a few billion spins through it *gasp*

 

[neon claws]

Eh, whatever.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think this is the thread you were thinking of:

GVC - Coral and Galacasino showing the wrong RTP to players, possible breach of license - Casinomeister Forum

Indeed, I covered it in a couple of videos.

 

[DeidreB]

A week or so, i got a bonus offering of up to 150 euro / 50% deposit, so in terms i had to drop in 300 minimum in order to obtain the full 150. I depositted 400, just to make it up to 550 euro. After ive won big it was certainly impossible to hit on anything else really. At the end of the road i managed to play it all away. But it left me with a very bad taste. My suspicion is that the casino might have a clue on when i win and the amount. They kind of must have knew when to drop in that bonus that i accepted. If i take a bonus it's less risk for them, there's more wagering and thus more profit for the casino.

This scenario was'nt the first time it happend. I had quit a few bonusses that would land me on a rounded number like 500 or so after wagering was complete. Is it possible for a casino to predict my next bing win? Can a casino just run certain numbers on my behaviour and tap in on that? Can a casino drop in a bonus that seems to favor me at the end of the wagering requirement?

Just because of this i stop accepting bonusses in the first place. There was something fishy about it; and since then i stopped playing at this particular casino. I also noticed something else. I had a quick withdraw of 7500 a while ago. All good. I played every week once or so and when i won it always was at a certain threshold, before shit started to tunnel down. Once i lost that amount, and come back the next time or deposit some more, it would somehow grant me based on my deposits a bit more on the initial 'threshold' again.

It took weeks and awefully alot of deposits, to even come close to that 7500 again. You know gamblers have their bad and good days, where the good days suddenly any game seems to land, hit and play the joyfull sounds of winning. I know we have RTP's but games landing wins like this is a bit odd to me.

View attachment 134017

In my 5+ years of gambling i never came such close to something like this. as i wrote in another thread before i ditched in 600 that particular day, to feel like 'being compensated' for the loss somehow someway. Obviously after this nothing worked, and trust me i try a big variation of games from different providers. Even low wagering bets that vary from 40 cents up to 20 euro a spin.

Casino's cant control the outcome obviously; but looking at certain graphs or numbering i guess they can predict. It's like the casino is betting against me, by dropping in a bonus at the 'right' time.

Years and years ago, when i became i vip in a landbased, i questioned them instant like how did you guys knew you had to had me for this occasion? They said, based on my activity (playerscard) and the speed of how fast i was collecting points, they could reverse by a simple math and kind of estimate what i was doing. Based on that data i think a online casino has way more tools for this purpose as well.

I'm not saying the casino is dirty, but it left me with feeling a bad taste in my mouth. No i did'nt expect it to win big either, but it happend a bit too often now for me to understand, the casino is working or betting against me. Does that sound like logic? Lol.

I'm not a most ideal player. When i can tear you another a-hole as a player i will. When i see a shot to hitting a 2k bonus buy and hit the lot i will. I'm just more carefull from this point on, because casino's at the end of the day want to have a steady profit coming in. I had my sheer fun over there but capping games, bets and changing certain features of a game is a sign for me that they just want more.

Edit; i challenge any casino owner to prove otherwise and show me a tour in a online casino. Players stats, player bonus, that kind of stuff.

I worked for the land based casinos and there was always a big push for player tracking cards. I do believe every online casino tracks their players movements and unlike land based casinos you don't have the luxury of being anonymous. Player tracking likely could be fed into AI on some level which would likely show a deterioration in the game play over time. I used the play many of the same slots over and over, the hits much lower as well as bonus rounds. Casinos have some mechanism to mitigate risk but not sure how it is being done. I have also wondered when you play across gaming providers, how is it every single game is a loser??Are all the gaming providers conspiring against a player ...doubtful. So how does that work....

 

[neon claws]

I have also wondered when you play across gaming providers, how is it every single game is a loser??Are all the gaming providers conspiring against a player ...doubtful. So how does that work....

Games are going to lose more often than not. Sometimes you will have a run of many duds in a row. It is random.

 

[mack341]

It is pseudo-random, to be precise.

 

[DeidreB]

A pseudorandom number generator (PRNG), also known as a deterministic random bit generator (DRBG),

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is an

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for generating a sequence of numbers whose properties approximate the properties of sequences of

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. The PRNG-generated sequence is not truly

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, because it is completely determined by an initial value, called the PRNG's

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[bamberfishcake]

Cool story, and excellent straw man. Ties it in nicely with your narrative how someone questioning differing RTP figures is by default saying all slots are rigged

Yet despite the evidence that casinos have been seen to display one RTP number whilst operating at a lesser one, you remain steadfast in your 'critiques'

As annoying as the constant "It's rigged I tell ya!" threads can be, it's equally annoying when the slot defenders like yourself come out to defend companies with their hands in the cookie jar. As 'problematic' as it is for me to definitely 'prove' whether I am in fact playing a 96% RTP version or a 94% one is, I suppose you can tell straight off the bat?

No, I didn't think so either. Unless you were to *gasp* maybe run a few billion spins through it *gasp*

You could just write a script and run it through billions of spins

 

[goatwack]

You could just write a script and run it through billions of spins

I was having quite a good Thursday until you dredged up these painful posts from the Thread of Doom

 

[neon claws]

Oh it's you two again. Cool.

 

[neon claws]

A pseudorandom number generator (PRNG), also known as a deterministic random bit generator (DRBG),

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is an

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for generating a sequence of numbers whose properties approximate the properties of sequences of

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. The PRNG-generated sequence is not truly

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, because it is completely determined by an initial value, called the PRNG's

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Yes, you can't ask a computer for a random number, they don't understand the concept. This is how it has always been and so they have many pseudo random algorithms like Mersenne Twister that are for all intents and purposes "random enough", this is not evidence of slots being rigged but rather just a basic fundamental of how computers work. If anything having a non true random number generator would work in the players favour as it could be exploited, see the story about the Australian Pelican Pete slot.

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[Kroffe]

I knew i recognized that name.
Position #187 from the Kama Sutra.

 

[goatwack]

Oh it's you two again. Cool.

It's ok, I've already requested that the mods rename this thread to 'AMA with Trancemonkey and of course Neon Claws'

But I jest of course, it's nice to hear your input - putting the 'ass' in 'asset'.

I particularly like your posts where you're a casino shill

 

[DeidreB]

Yes, you can't ask a computer for a random number, they don't understand the concept. This is how it has always been and so they have many pseudo random algorithms like Mersenne Twister that are for all intents and purposes "random enough", this is not evidence of slots being rigged but rather just a basic fundamental of how computers work. If anything having a non true random number generator would work in the players favour as it could be exploited, see the story about the Australian Pelican Pete slot.

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Generally its used as a function call, random on higher level languages is built in.... however anytime you are wrapping a function into some sort of procedure, there is room to manipulate it..

 

[trancemonkey]

Generally its used as a function call, random on higher level languages is built in.... however anytime you are wrapping a function into some sort of procedure, there is room to manipulate it..

So how would you suggest we actually produce, and use, random numbers in order to be "more random" - i'd love to hear this so that i can go to GLI, or the Nevada Gaming Regulators and explain how what we are doing is wrong or how it can be "less manipulated. Clearly us giving the regulators and test-houses our code isn't good enough...

 

[neon claws]

So how would you suggest we actually produce, and use, random numbers in order to be "more random" - i'd love to hear this so that i can go to GLI, or the Nevada Gaming Regulators and explain how what we are doing is wrong or how it can be "less manipulated. Clearly us giving the regulators and test-houses our code isn't good enough...

How about a room full of monkeys flipping coins?
To make sure the monkeys aren't in on the scam you'd obviously need a room full of ducks tossing dice to random up the randomness sufficiently.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Seen a few gizmos that plug into a computer and take influence from the environment - hot, cold, moisture etc.

Not sure how good they work and of course, getting something like that hooked up to games at casinos is pretty unrealistic I would imagine.

Not a techie so wouldn't know.

Happy with the pseudorandom. To give knowledgeable players more confidence, the industry should have a different system for testing and one that is not based so much on honesty and trust.

 

[paul7388]

Seen a few gizmos that plug into a computer and take influence from the environment - hot, cold, moisture etc.

So are we thinking that could be used with slots.

If computer detects warm outside slots will be hot. If freezing they will be cold .
And if pissing down session will be a complete washout.

I need to move to a warmer climate then but hey at least the Scandinavians will stop winning every jackpot.

 

[DeidreB]

So how would you suggest we actually produce, and use, random numbers in order to be "more random" - i'd love to hear this so that i can go to GLI, or the Nevada Gaming Regulators and explain how what we are doing is wrong or how it can be "less manipulated. Clearly us giving the regulators and test-houses our code isn't good enough...

OMG wouldn't that be wonderful...

The question of fair computing on randome generated selection has and always will be challenged...

Generation of random numbers is a central problem for many applications in the field of information processing, including, e.g., cryptography, in classical and quantum regime, but also mathematical modeling, Monte Carlo methods, gambling and many others. Both, the quality of the randomness and efficiency of the random numbers generation process are crucial for the most of these applications.

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However seldom do we solve million dollar questions on beer budgets...Best of Luck!